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I used to love Ashley. But now...


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#76
ADLegend21

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HagarIshay wrote...

This is an issue that bugged me ever since Ashley was first revealed to be in ME3. But after doing a playthrough with her (which i haven't even finished, due to my great disappointment), i realised the problem was much more serious than i first thought.

I'll start by saying how much i loved Ashley's character in Mass effect 1. Not only she had a great personality, she was also original. Something that is very missing in games. 
Ashley was a strong soldier, who didn't give a damm about what people thought of her and her looks. While i found her pretty, i definitely didn't think of her as having sexual appereance. The only thing that seemed to me out of place about her is her pink armor. And after putting the pheonix armor on Wrex and Garrus, it didn't really bothered me much.
Ashley's personality was great. She and Kaidan were two out of a few (If not the only ones) squadmates that gave political statements. Even if you don't agree with her, She still brought interesting viewpoints to the ones that listened. The best thing was about her, She wasn't there to please the player with utter adoration to Sheaprd. She wasn't loyal to Shepard and indifferent about his/her actions, And was definitely not Shepard's puppet. Again, one of the few squadmates which had that quality. Ashley williams was one of my favorite squadmates, and what i saw as one of the best written characters in the Mass Effect series.

I'll bet most of you now know where i'm going with this.

starting with the obvious: Ashley's looks. 
Makeup? I can handle it. You barley see a woman this days without an eyeshadow. In the future i don't see much difference.

Hair? I wouldn't have so much of a problem of it wasn't out of character. I mean, it seems no one will give a damm about hair regulations in the future (Defualt femshep is a great example) But still... why did she need to loosen her hair? maybe fix the bun, but getting rid of it entirely? don't really see the reason.  

Armor? Completly ridicules. Why would the artists do that!? You are making an outfits for the woman who used to wear heavy armor for god's sake! Why giving her such a tight and completly unbulletproof clothes? She isn't Miranda. She can't perfectly dodge from gunfire. Or making a biotic bubble like Jack or Samara. And she is not made out of metal!!! I really wanted my maleshep to laugh at her face when she said to him "I wear armor to battle, not swimmwear".

But you know, i could have gotten over it. It would have been hard, but i could. Then Bioware dropped the second bomb which really made me despise her writer. The annoying fact she wasn't anymore someone that would say "i'm okay" when getting hurt. I don't think i heard her say a sarcastic comment even once throughout the game.
It can be argued that she has her reasons. She is worried about her family, She don't have time to make funny comments. But is she that much of a mess that she will completely forget she has to serve the next day and get totally drunk? That much of a mess that it's looks like she is going to burst into tears every second? No!
Her family had suffred for a long time of a bad reputation. But it's only driven her more to prove herself. You'd think her sister's dead husband and the loss of so many humans will only make her more determind, not depressed. 

Now when i think of Ashely i see her as two diffrent characters. An alliance soldier or an alliance cheerleader. To be honest i believe i perfer the cerberus's cheerleader. At least she had a personality.

Sorry for the rant, But it really bothered me. Did anyone felt the same about her? Or am i being too picky here? did anyone actually thought it suited her characterism and maybe i read her wrong? 
 

her default appearance is NOT her armor. Granted you an put her in that in combat, but you can do the same thing with Liara, and Tali with their default on shi appearances. All three, however, come with two seperate outfits that are combat ready(Liara gets armor or phantomish armor just like Ashley does) you must have all Kaidan playthroughs if you didn't know you ocld put her in a suit of armor or a suit of phantom armor. seriously it's that damn easy. As for her looks she literally wears the SAME THING for two years. on th Normandy as it's going she's got phoenix heavy armor and her hair bun, two years later on Horizon, Phoenix heavy armor and her bun. Kaidan wears Phoenix armor on the Normandy when it's blowing up, and then on Horizon he has a new set of armor. She was due for a new outfit after three years, finally. You're compaining hat Ashley had a hang over after drinking, but I guess you've got no problem with TALI having an actively drunk scene BECAUSE MIRANDA GOT TO KILL HER FATHER. That had NOTHING to do with Tali an yet she's getting drunk because Mrianda killing her oppresive father made her regret being her dad's soldier instead of her daughter.  I ont' thinkyou really paid attention to Ashley during the game, not really. Ashley is pretty much a more mature version of her ME1 self. Granted she seems a bit cut off from the crew and even Sheaprd because of auto-dialogue and her not having banter with other characters but she's incredibly similar to the woman from ME1. I dont know which Ashley williams you had in your game, maybe he one fro army of darkness???Image IPB

#77
lil yonce

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Enigma1322 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Enigma1322 wrote...

I think Bioware was trying to attract teenagers with Me3. I am 31 and don't mind that Kaidan was pumped up in Me3 but it was a bit much and I thought that his "no chesthair at all" was catered towards some of the younger fans, I think the same goes for Ashley.


I always thought Kaidan was the stuff of teenage dreams. Nice. Non-threatening. Attractive. And if I may - a motor mouth with a limp billy club. Sorry. I'm smack dab in the middle of my bad boy phase.


Lol Kaidan is my favorite Li and I really like his character but they changed him a lot in me3 as they did with Ashley. I like his looks a LOT but come on who in his thirties shaves his chest completely? He did have chesthair in me1.


What? You don't approve of Kaidan's new found devil-may-care metrosexuality. ;p

#78
CptData

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Well, AD, I kinda disagree.

"Less talkative" doesn't mean "more mature". Ashley's romance was perfectly done - it just doesn't feel complete without the frienly banter between each other. And I'm aware of a lot of fem!Shep players who kept Ashley as ther BFF - and got nothing in ME3, neither a bi!romance nor a friendship path.
Afaik you're amongst them ...

Yeah. That.

#79
Ageless Face

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ADLegend21 wrote...

her default appearance is NOT her armor. Granted you an put her in that in combat, but you can do the same thing with Liara, and Tali with their default on shi appearances. All three, however, come with two seperate outfits that are combat ready(Liara gets armor or phantomish armor just like Ashley does) you must have all Kaidan playthroughs if you didn't know you ocld put her in a suit of armor or a suit of phantom armor. seriously it's that damn easy. As for her looks she literally wears the SAME THING for two years. on th Normandy as it's going she's got phoenix heavy armor and her hair bun, two years later on Horizon, Phoenix heavy armor and her bun. Kaidan wears Phoenix armor on the Normandy when it's blowing up, and then on Horizon he has a new set of armor. She was due for a new outfit after three years, finally. You're compaining hat Ashley had a hang over after drinking, but I guess you've got no problem with TALI having an actively drunk scene BECAUSE MIRANDA GOT TO KILL HER FATHER. That had NOTHING to do with Tali an yet she's getting drunk because Mrianda killing her oppresive father made her regret being her dad's soldier instead of her daughter.  I ont' thinkyou really paid attention to Ashley during the game, not really. Ashley is pretty much a more mature version of her ME1 self. Granted she seems a bit cut off from the crew and even Sheaprd because of auto-dialogue and her not having banter with other characters but she's incredibly similar to the woman from ME1. I dont know which Ashley williams you had in your game, maybe he one fro army of darkness???
Image IPB 

  

ehmm... okay. 

I didn't really meant that i cared that much about Ashley wearing Pheonix armor. Just something that seemed out of place. Not just for her but in general. But putting it on Wrex was funny so i let it go.

And i don't remember stating i had no problem with Tali's drinking. I don't even let my Shepards drink (except from with chakwas. you barley get interactions with her as it is). But my OP was mainly about Ashley and what i expected of her. Which was not to drink herself until she would fall down to the floor and beg from Shepard to stop talking. Quite pitiful. Tali was maybe talking like a fool but she didn't disgraced herself as Ashley did to herself. At least to me it seems.

And sure she is more mature. She saw much in the time apart from Shepard. But i saw barley a glimpse of her in ME3 that stayed from ME1. Maybe it's because i didn't look hard enough, i don't know. I wasn't even sure about her until others said they felt the same. 

 If you feel she is the same person than i am truly jealous of you. Because i don't. Not by one bit.

 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 10 mai 2012 - 08:35 .


#80
Ageless Face

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Modifié par HagarIshay, 10 mai 2012 - 08:12 .


#81
adneate

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Ashley suffers from having a writer who doesn't know exactly what to do with her yet it also deathly afraid of being strung up for getting her wrong. So when you don't have any business for a character you just have them do exactly what they did before since that's familiar, with Ashley it's the family stuff. Ashley is real close to her family and she talks about her family.

If you don't romance her she just spins her wheels while treading water, the character goes nowhere and unlike Kaidan I didn't even get the sense there was any kind of friendship between her and FemShep.

Basically it's Garrus from ME2 all over again, in the first game Garrus was angry and wanted to do things his way and right wrongs with bullets. In ME2 Garrus did things his way but he's angry and wants to right wrongs with bullets. Shepard either tells him he can't solve everything with bullets or he can solve everything with bullets. Then you either sleep with him to keep the content coming or he doesn't talk to you the rest of the game.

Remember when characters had a new conversation after every major mission in ME1? Why'd that stop was it because writing things was too hard?

#82
noxpanda

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Ive done one playthrough with ash in me3 and tbh i wont bother doing another. In me1 ash had me in stitches, she was yelling 'what the hell is that?' while i was thinking it, was running up to windows and going 'ooh' at the big ships which was exactly what i was doing when i saw the citadel! She was fun!
In me3 i found her to be... depressing company. I deliberately went to chat with her as much as i could and i think i kinda did a half smile once. I don't like the new ash, shes boring.

#83
ThatDancingTurian

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HagarIshay wrote...

Okay, i admit it's not very nice of me to have a grudge against Garrus and Tali for trusting Sheaprd. But i still find it odd Tali and garrus Didn't question Shepard's sanity. Tali maybe did a little at freedom's progress, but if not for the quarians standing next to her, i bet she would have calibrating in engineering long before Garrus. 

And you can see in ME1 the friendship between Ashley, Kaidan and Shepard was very big. That didn't stopped them from questioning Shepard when they should. And Garrus and Tali had even more reasons doubt Shepard. They were Aliens. On a xenophobic ship. Sure, you can say it's just them showing absulute loyalty for Sheaprd. I say it's exactly the problem. It's not making me hate Garrus and Tali. even like them at some level. But i can't entirely respect them. believe me, i tried.

They are aliens. That means they come from a culture with totally different values.

Garrus comes from a militaristic culture where the number one rule is putting the team before the self and following orders. Now he may not consider himself a 'good turian', but it's still a value that has been instilled in him from birth. Turians on the whole also seem far more 'renegade' in nature, so it's more in Garrus' character to not take the moral high ground over getting things done. And all of this is ignoring the vulnerable emotional state Garrus is in post-Omega, where it seems like Shepard is the only person left in the galaxy he can trust. He has a vested interest in keeping that relationship intact.

Tali comes from a culture wherein colleagues, friends and family are all the same thing. There are only the flotilla and outsiders. When Shepard became trusted, Shepard became like family. Of course she's going to take Shepard's word over Cerberus. I wouldn't call that naive, because such trust is not easily given. Once it is earned, it's simply earned for good. That's why their greatest punishment is exile and one they don't hand out lightly, they place the highest value in togetherness and protecting each other.

In contrast, humanity puts much more stake in personal judgments and independence. Loyalty to oneself and one's values is just as important as loyalty to others. For Garrus and Tali it was an issue of loyalty, but for the VS it was an issue of morality. Both are honorable in their own way.

And Garrus DID question Shepard right after he got on board. "Cerberus, Shepard?" Of course, this was after Shepard saved him from certain death (yet again) and thus proved him/herself to be the same old hero as always. They talked about it, they settled it, they moved on. It didn't become as big a 'thing' for Garrus because of the points I've previously mentioned, but he did bring it up.

As Tali said, she'd gladly help blow Cerberus up if Shepard wanted. That's not the comment from someone who is going along blindly and has no reservations about the situation. Just because she's not as loud as the VS about her distaste for Cerberus doesn't mean she isn't sleeping with one eye open.

/okay, I know this is de-railing. I just think they all had perfectly valid and just reasons for what they did. Nobody in this situation was blind just because they didn't come to the same conclusions.

::ahem:: Back on topic to ME3 Ashley.

It really was the second half where they messed her up. I had no problems with her still distrusting Shepard in the first half, because I assumed once we finally settled it we'd be closer than ever. There really should have been a pay-off after all of that, but if you don't do the romance there's basically nothing. It might not have been a conscious decision by the writers, but the way she was written in ME3 just makes Horizon more painful. It wasn't an obstacle our friendship would overcome, it was the turning point that would irrevocably damage our friendship, and we'd never quite be the same again. That's just... sucky.

I also didn't like the drunk thing. It felt like she was falling apart at the seams. I already had Tali and Liara doing that at various points, I didn't need it from her too. Also, the way she was insulting Shepard in that scene didn't feel like the joke it was intended to be. It made me feel tension between them since there's no other joking from her except for deliberate insults towards Shepard. It just felt out of place when she's keeping things so terribly professional all other times.

On another note, we lost her for almost half the game in that stupid hospital, wasn't that enough cut dialogue? Why did they have to cut corners with squad interaction too?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 10 mai 2012 - 10:01 .


#84
CptData

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Aris: may I throw in a guess? If you have Ash still around and take her with you on missions, do you pair her with Garrus?

In case you do: leave Garrus at home. Somehow the game is designed in a way Garrus is uttering most lines in case he's on a mission. If you want extra banter from Ash in any given mission, pick her with other squadmates, and she has some lines too ^^

(Try Rachni Queen mission with Ash + Vega ^^)

#85
ThatDancingTurian

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CptData wrote...

Aris: may I throw in a guess? If you have Ash still around and take her with you on missions, do you pair her with Garrus?

In case you do: leave Garrus at home. Somehow the game is designed in a way Garrus is uttering most lines in case he's on a mission. If you want extra banter from Ash in any given mission, pick her with other squadmates, and she has some lines too ^^

(Try Rachni Queen mission with Ash + Vega ^^)

I'll have to try that next time, assuming I can work up the courage to play it again. Still haven't been able to.

I was actually referring to squad banter on the ship. I didn't end up taking her with me much at all, to be honest. I planned for her and Garrus to be my go-to team just like in ME1, but I didn't know there would be such an obscene amount of forced-squadmate missions in the second half of the game, which of course is the only time I get to use her. :mellow:

I find it strange that Garrus has dialogue priority, I didn't realize that. I'm used to my male LIs having lowest dialogue priority in missions and female LIs having the highest, overriding the input of everyone. It's why I have a hard time bringing Isabela, Miranda or Liara anywhere.

I think it also has to do with placement in the squad, too. I restarted a mission once and Garrus and EDI were switching lines.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 10 mai 2012 - 10:10 .


#86
Shotokanguy

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Ugh, reading this topic is depressing. Just one of many things to be sad about.

Try this series again in 10 years, BioWare. You'll have the tech to do everything you tried to do the first time.

#87
Armdin

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Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I think it also has to do with placement in the squad, too. I restarted a mission once and Garrus and EDI were switching lines.


It definetely has to do with which side your squad members are standing. I'm afraid I can't remember which side a squaddie needs to appar on to get the dialogue options, but I imagine if you start a playthough, note which side a squaddie is standing on and which lines they get, then just reloading the save until they switch sides.

Which sides they're on is really random, it doesn't really matter who you pick first since restarting a mission, loading a save and dying seem to be able to switch which side your squaddies are standing on (realy annoying when you have to do a fight several times and you're used to swinging the controller to the right side for Overload only to find Singularity there instead :|)

#88
Apathy1989

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Aris Ravenstar wrote...

It really was the second half where they messed her up. I had no problems with her still distrusting Shepard in the first half, because I assumed once we finally settled it we'd be closer than ever. There really should have been a pay-off after all of that, but if you don't do the romance there's basically nothing. It might not have been a conscious decision by the writers, but the way she was written in ME3 just makes Horizon more painful. It wasn't an obstacle our friendship would overcome, it was the turning point that would irrevocably damage our friendship, and we'd never quite be the same again. That's just... sucky.


I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 

#89
JamesS.

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Apathy1989 wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

It really was the second half where they messed her up. I had no problems with her still distrusting Shepard in the first half, because I assumed once we finally settled it we'd be closer than ever. There really should have been a pay-off after all of that, but if you don't do the romance there's basically nothing. It might not have been a conscious decision by the writers, but the way she was written in ME3 just makes Horizon more painful. It wasn't an obstacle our friendship would overcome, it was the turning point that would irrevocably damage our friendship, and we'd never quite be the same again. That's just... sucky.


I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 


I have wished that for a long time now but I wouldn't get my hopes op :-(

#90
kumquats

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Apathy1989 wrote...
I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 


That is over. It would have made sense in ME2, but now both of them can die AGAIN.
I would love a DLC for Jack, but a character that can die in a game, isn't good DLC material. Or they have to make the DLC, before they join the Normandy again, which is not going to happen. Every DLC has to make sense pre Cerberus HQ.
This VS topic is really making me depressed. Oh Ash, what have they done to you. Maybe I just have to do the same thing like in ME2. Romance a character to get more scenes with them. If that isn't a step back, then I don't know.

#91
Ageless Face

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Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I also didn't like the drunk thing. It felt like she was falling apart at the seams. I already had Tali and Liara doing that at various points, I didn't need it from her too. Also, the way she was insulting Shepard in that scene didn't feel like the joke it was intended to be. It made me feel tension between them since there's no other joking from her except for deliberate insults towards Shepard. It just felt out of place when she's keeping things so terribly professional all other times.



The drunk scene really made no sense to me. I don't even think it was intended to be a joke. You see the diffrence in Tali and Ashley's scenes. with Tali you are talking while she is drunk,  so it's suppose to be  funny. Ashley you see crawled up on the floor, insulting Shepard and whispering her head hurts. And then you see James outside, making Ashley food or something, saying she is having a hard time. It really gets to you that theres nothing but depression to Ashley in ME3.

My biggest problem with this  that with Tali it wasn't such a big deal. i'm pretty sure you can always skip it and think it never happened. With Ashley however... You can't complete the romance without seen her like this. Which is very, very sad. 

#92
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Hairstyles are out of character now? Wow, you learn something new every day.

#93
Ageless Face

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jreezy wrote...

Hairstyles are out of character now? Wow, you learn something new every day.


Well, if a girl would walk barely a year before like she really don't care what people thought of her looks, then suddenly have such a huge transformatoin and looking like- well you know what- then i would think something is wrong, yes. Ashley is a grown woman. She isn't a teenager who wants boys to notice her. The hairstyle is just a part of it. A small part that can be forgiven very easily if not for the outfits.  

#94
Psycho Mantis I

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Ashley in ME3 disappointed me too, it wasn't just the new look but she was different with her personality and didn't say anymore poems(only happened once) and stopped calling Shepard "Skipper".
I also didn't like that you couldn't talk to her when she is in the Normandy again and the only time is when she is on the floor drunk. I noticed that Kaiden actually moves around talking to people but Ashley didn't do that.
Little things like that is what upset me when i used my playthrough with her as my LI.

#95
Obvakhi

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HagarIshay wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Hairstyles are out of character now? Wow, you learn something new every day.


Well, if a girl would walk barely a year before like she really don't care what people thought of her looks, then suddenly have such a huge transformatoin and looking like- well you know what- then i would think something is wrong, yes. Ashley is a grown woman. She isn't a teenager who wants boys to notice her. The hairstyle is just a part of it. A small part that can be forgiven very easily if not for the outfits.  



There is a cut dialogue where Ashley tells Shepard to "mention the hair". So yeah, she does want people(Shepard) to notice her.
Really stupid of Bioware to cut this part out, Ashley changes her look and Shepard never says one peep about it... but he has no problem mentioning Jack's new look more than once. 
Another reason I was disappointed in the Ash romance.

Modifié par Obvakhi, 11 mai 2012 - 08:42 .


#96
Apathy1989

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kumquats wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...
I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 


That is over. It would have made sense in ME2, but now both of them can die AGAIN.
I would love a DLC for Jack, but a character that can die in a game, isn't good DLC material. Or they have to make the DLC, before they join the Normandy again, which is not going to happen. Every DLC has to make sense pre Cerberus HQ.


I was talking past tense, I wanted it in ME2. Too late now though. <_<

#97
CptData

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kumquats wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...
I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 


That is over. It would have made sense in ME2, but now both of them can die AGAIN.
I would love a DLC for Jack, but a character that can die in a game, isn't good DLC material. Or they have to make the DLC, before they join the Normandy again, which is not going to happen. Every DLC has to make sense pre Cerberus HQ.
This VS topic is really making me depressed. Oh Ash, what have they done to you. Maybe I just have to do the same thing like in ME2. Romance a character to get more scenes with them. If that isn't a step back, then I don't know.


Well, that's why I was (and still trying to get back to "am") fighting for a romance DLC upgrading any existing romances to Liara!level.

I simply want more interaction, not just at a romantic level but also friendship & comradeship stuff. Something that tells me those characters are -real- and care for what's going on. That was displayed in ME2 quite good and with the post-mission opinion of every squadmate it worked in ME1 as well.

It's just ME3. Too much shooting, not enough talking, even less choices.


One of the ideas was to make the LI to Shepard's emotional mainstay. The LI should be there and listen to him/her and give feedback to any primary mission. If things go wrong (like the Fall of Thessia or the death of Tarquin Victus) the LI should give some comforting talk ...

Something like that. I always imagined Ashley as the reason why (my) Shepard was fighting. Like in ME1 she's the one pulling him up if he's down. That's the Ash I have in my mind whenever I play the game. And my headcanon fills the emptiness of Ashley's character in the second half.

Well, that's my way how I stay loyal to and in love with her. :)

#98
JamesS.

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CptData wrote...

kumquats wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...
I really wish the VS got a DLC (like Liara) to patch up the relationship. 


That is over. It would have made sense in ME2, but now both of them can die AGAIN.
I would love a DLC for Jack, but a character that can die in a game, isn't good DLC material. Or they have to make the DLC, before they join the Normandy again, which is not going to happen. Every DLC has to make sense pre Cerberus HQ.
This VS topic is really making me depressed. Oh Ash, what have they done to you. Maybe I just have to do the same thing like in ME2. Romance a character to get more scenes with them. If that isn't a step back, then I don't know.


Well, that's why I was (and still trying to get back to "am") fighting for a romance DLC upgrading any existing romances to Liara!level.

I simply want more interaction, not just at a romantic level but also friendship & comradeship stuff. Something that tells me those characters are -real- and care for what's going on. That was displayed in ME2 quite good and with the post-mission opinion of every squadmate it worked in ME1 as well.

It's just ME3. Too much shooting, not enough talking, even less choices.


One of the ideas was to make the LI to Shepard's emotional mainstay. The LI should be there and listen to him/her and give feedback to any primary mission. If things go wrong (like the Fall of Thessia or the death of Tarquin Victus) the LI should give some comforting talk ...

Something like that. I always imagined Ashley as the reason why (my) Shepard was fighting. Like in ME1 she's the one pulling him up if he's down. That's the Ash I have in my mind whenever I play the game. And my headcanon fills the emptiness of Ashley's character in the second half.

Well, that's my way how I stay loyal to and in love with her. :)


I agree completely! That's How I feel about it with Kaidan. If I can help you fight to get Biowares attention let me know!

#99
Hellfire257

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Obvakhi wrote...


There is a cut dialogue where Ashley tells Shepard to "mention the hair". So yeah, she does want people(Shepard) to notice her.


The sound file for that line actually exists in the game files as well IIRC. <_<

Modifié par Hellfire257, 11 mai 2012 - 01:07 .


#100
survivor_686

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Confirmed. Go on youtube and search ashley and "individual" conversations. There is a lot of completed audio files where Ashley interacts with the Normandy crew. Can't understand why they cut it.

Either way, the VA for Ashley recorded new dialogue so maybe we'll see something in the EC>