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#126
Hudathan

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Part of Bioware games is that there is no such thing as an omnipotent protagonist who has complete control over the outcome of their respective stories and that fact has made their narratives much more believable when compared to most other games.

Throughout ME3, Shepard was finally forced to confront the awful truth about the Reapers and about life itself in that setting: that organics are basically in a meaningless struggle against a superior enemy and that one person can't save the entire galaxy no matter how much they would want to.

However, hope remains. Through the persistence of countless generations, something inspirational in of itself, a device has been designed to channel the very power of the Reapers themselves, the only energy source powerful enough in the galaxy to affect a change on that level.

By the end of the game, Shepard was exhausted and wounded in a potentially fatal way. He/she is standing alone on the only device that could possibly defeat the Reapers. At the end of the day, one person can only do so much to save the day. In this case, it's to use the Crucible and hope that the design and construction would benefit our cause. Shepard takes the only choice available to him/her, just like on Virmire.

Non-standard outcomes have never been a bad thing in Bioware stories, and they certainly shouldn't be in the ending to their great trilogy.

Modifié par Hudathan, 10 mai 2012 - 02:03 .


#127
The Night Mammoth

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Hudathan wrote...

Part of Bioware games is that there is no such thing as an omnipotent protagonist who has complete control over the outcome of their respective stories and that fact has made their narratives much more believable when compared to most other games.

Throughout ME3, Shepard was finally forced to confront the awful truth about the Reapers and about life itself in that setting: that organics are basically in a meaningless struggle against a superior enemy and that one person can't save the entire galaxy no matter how much they would want to.

However, hope remains. Through the persistence of countless generations, something inspirational in of itself, a device has been designed to channel the very power of the Reapers themselves, the only energy source powerful enough in the galaxy to affect a change on that level.

By the end of the game, Shepard was exhausted and wounded in a potentially fatal way. He/she is standing alone on the only device that could possibly defeat the Reapers. At the end of the day, one person can only do so much to save the day. In this case, it's to use the Crucible and hope that the design and construction would benefit our cause. Shepard takes the only choice available to him/her, just like on Virmire.


That would be a wonderful ending. 

If the context were completely different. 


Non-standard outcomes have never been a bad thing in Bioware stories, and they certainly shouldn't be in the ending to their great trilogy.


There's non-standard, and then there's this. 

If standard is sitting here beside me, and non-standard is perhaps outside in the garden, the unfortunate reality, BioWare's attempt at a non-standard ending, is currently playing badminton with a bipedal genius goat in the crushing atmosphere of Jupiter. 

That's how far removed and beyond standard it is. 

#128
MegaSovereign

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The Angry One wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...

Why on this insane ravaged F@#$%^&  planet would anyone choose to believe the Starbrat , Starchild , Godchild ,or  Being of light words as law ?
This is the commander , creator of the enemy we have been trying to stop for three games and when it saids you have these choices we do it ?
illiogical , idiotic , stupid , moronic .... etc ... really ?

I absolutely knowmy Shepard would never have giving in to this , damn I've proving quite the opposite for the past two games and five years....




Then reject his "solutions" and blow up the red tube, and live ;)


Destroy is one of it's solutions.
The fact that destroy ****s over the Reapers just as much as everyone else doesn't change that it's one of it's solutions.

So here are your Reaper leader approved solutions:

- Screw everybody.
- Screw everybody except the Reapers.
- Turn everybody into a Reaper.

Victorious and uplifting!


It's not the catalyst's solution. In fact, those solutions are given to you by the crucible. Catalyst merely presents them to you. I mean really, why would the Catalyst give you the option to destroy themselves?

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 10 mai 2012 - 02:16 .


#129
tMc Tallgeese

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Great post, Hudathan. I came to many of the same conclusions that you have. Although I am a pro-ender, I do think a few extra cutscenes and perhaps some dialogue will add a but more polish to an ending that I felt fit with the circumstances Shepard was faced with.

#130
XqctaX

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The Angry One wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Missile ****** and laser eyes are hard to pass up. Ah Headcanon, I can see why people like it.


Stop stealing my ideas!

Actually, that was The Angry Ones idea. 

Or was it? I must find the originator to converse with them. 


Missile breasts were mine, laser eyes were porclain doll's I believe.

like a virgin... touched for the very first time.. liiiiiiike a viiiiirgin ;)

#131
The Night Mammoth

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MegaSovereign wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...

Why on this insane ravaged F@#$%^&  planet would anyone choose to believe the Starbrat , Starchild , Godchild ,or  Being of light words as law ?
This is the commander , creator of the enemy we have been trying to stop for three games and when it saids you have these choices we do it ?
illiogical , idiotic , stupid , moronic .... etc ... really ?

I absolutely knowmy Shepard would never have giving in to this , damn I've proving quite the opposite for the past two games and five years....




Then reject his "solutions" and blow up the red tube, and live ;)


Destroy is one of it's solutions.
The fact that destroy ****s over the Reapers just as much as everyone else doesn't change that it's one of it's solutions.

So here are your Reaper leader approved solutions:

- Screw everybody.
- Screw everybody except the Reapers.
- Turn everybody into a Reaper.

Victorious and uplifting!


It's not the catalyst's solution. In fact, those solutions are given to you by the crucible. Catalyst merely presents them to you. I mean really, why would the Catalyst give you the option to destroy themselves?


Who the f*ck knows.

All I can see is that red and blue clearly pre-date the arrival of the Crucible, so they must have been pre-built. Since the Catalyst talks to you there, and it clearly lifts up the ramps that actually give you access to these three options, it seems pretty reasonable to believe that it is allowing you access to these functions of the Crucible.

Remember that some options don't appear for whatever reason. 

#132
Noelemahc

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Through the persistence of countless generations, something inspirational in of itself, a device has been designed to channel the very power of the Reapers themselves, the only energy source powerful enough in the galaxy to affect a change on that level.

...which the Reapers at the very least co-authored in order to co-opt its purpose and distract the foolish organics from building better guns.
Did nobody listen to what Vendetta said?

Non-standard outcomes have never been a bad thing in Bioware stories, and they certainly shouldn't be in the ending to their great trilogy.

Yes, but this one isn't non-standard, this type of ending has been done to the death in the Deus Ex franchise alone. By the third game people were screaming "what, AGAIN?" at the top of their lungs. And then ME3 goes and uses that outcome once more. Whoop-dee-doo. Except that even DXHR had more closure than we ultimately got.

I got nothing against non-standard endings. I enjoyed the heck out of Marathon Infinity's. Or Doom 64's. And KotOR's. And every Silent Hill always tried to aim for a "reap what you sow" with its endings, which were always a stab in the heart at best.

It's just that doing a really non-standard ending in a twisty nonlinear (or pseudononlinear) RPG is hella hard. BW succeeded with DAO in that regard, no complaints there. But ME3...

#133
Ieldra

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wantedman dan wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You've proven nothing.

And, believing him is your choice. There's no reason to, and no reason not to.


No reason not to believe him?

What?

As much reason to believe it as to not to, actually.

The Catalyst pulled you up to the platform, it told you things. It didn't need to to do those things, since it was winning. The Reapers were winning, and if you want proof of that, it's the "critical mission failure" you get if you walk back. So...if it was winning, why did it present three other choices to you, which would all either destroy it or make it subservient to Shepard?

#134
BDelacroix

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Except for the fact that he killed himself, Hitler had a plan when the allies arrived at his bunker.

Commend them for getting that far and give them three options:

1) Destroy **** Germany but all of Europe has to die, too.
2) Control **** Germany.
3) Join with **** Germany.

I didn't believe anything the holo kid said.

#135
Noelemahc

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So...if it was winning, why did it present three other choices to you, which would all either destroy it or make it subservient to Shepard?

To quote itself, "Because the cycle doesn't work anymore". How you interpret that is up to you, although I'd rather it had an existential crisis and flew all the Reapers out through Omega-4.

#136
Joykilledme

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wantedman dan wrote...

What's upsetting isn't the ending itself, it's the asinine writers who believed these choices would fly with the rest of us.


Freaking A! thier ego is big you could fit the crucible through it...

#137
wantedman dan

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Ieldra2 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You've proven nothing.

And, believing him is your choice. There's no reason to, and no reason not to.


No reason not to believe him?

What?

As much reason to believe it as to not to, actually.

The Catalyst pulled you up to the platform, it told you things. It didn't need to to do those things, since it was winning. The Reapers were winning, and if you want proof of that, it's the "critical mission failure" you get if you walk back. So...if it was winning, why did it present three other choices to you, which would all either destroy it or make it subservient to Shepard?




You point to being railroaded into a choice by a critial mission failure menu as proof that the Reapers are "winning?"

#138
wantedman dan

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Aw, come on. Don't just handwave it away. Can I do that with what you said?


If the context is applicable, then it isn't just a simple "handwave."

#139
ardensia

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a.m.p wrote...

ardensia wrote...

I'd address the other, more on-topic issue, but it is 3 AM and I have work in a few hours. To put it simply, just because someone is your enemy does not mean that they cannot be right. If the animosity between the two of you is such that they are going to take your life, you have the right to fight for your survival to the very end, but you also have the option to sit back and consider why your enemy feels killing you is, in their opinion, the best option.


This is all well and good and should be analyzed in great detail. After you stop your enemy from killing you. A soldier does not sit back and think their enemy may be right while said enemy is still actively killing them.

However wise and powerful you think the being you are talking to is, its previously stated goal was to destroy your civilization. Your stated goal was to stop it. You have no reason to believe that what it's offering will further your goal and not the catalyst's.


Understood. By this logic, as soon as the Catalyst says, "That button over there will destroy us all," Shep should go, "Done!" and shoot it... preferably without walking into the explodey range, which I really never understood from a logic point of view.

However, this would lead to less talking rather than more.

I'm actually for more talking myself, even if it requires a bit more suspension of disbelief, since my Shepard is DYING. :(

But that's already been addressed elsewhere, and in far greater depth than I'm going to get to. And if you think we can win by conventional means, of course, it goes out the window.

Been there. Me and JShepppp ended up agreeing that the catalyst truthfulness actually is relevant, even if we assume no conventional victory is possible.

With your permission I'll be lazy and quote right from that.
 <snipped>


By all means. I'm all for laziness in favor of rewording what one has already posted elsewhere.

I apologize; it was obviously late and I was tired. My point simply was to adress why someone would choose to believe the Catalyst, and why someone would agree with their enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. Not saying that believing the Catalyst is the right choice or the wrong choice; that decision rests solely in the hands of the players right now, since BioWare didn't give us a clear picture of what exactly the Catalyst is. Theories abound, of course, but in the end they are all just more of the "s" word.

I still don't buy that the Crucible is a Reaper trap. It seems to me it would seem to be in the best interest of a relatively timeless being to just wait for the next cycle to activate it "properly" (control or synthesis) if there was a chance the current cycle would just use it to muck everything up. Also, the idea doesn't seem to line up very well with the low EMS options. (Why would having the bare minimum EMS still give you a possible option for a "best" ending?) But again... I'm not NEARLY pro-ending enough to think the ending couldn't use some clarification.

#140
a.m.p

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ardensia wrote...

Understood. By this logic, as soon as the Catalyst says, "That button over there will destroy us all," Shep should go, "Done!" and shoot it... preferably without walking into the explodey range, which I really never understood from a logic point of view.

No, no ,no. Shooting a tube that the little glowing reaper boss says will destroy reapers does not mean mistrusting the little glowing reaper boss. Shepard doesn't know what would happen if they shoot this tube. Nobody gave them a manual about how to turn on the crucible. Moreover, what reason is there to believe that a superweapon that destroys all reapers is turned on by shooting one of it's components?

See, that is the problem. The way the scene is designed makes trusting him not a choice at all and all those walls of text I keep posting about it are trying to explain this. The way the scene is currently designed the only way trusting him can become a choice is if we get to not pick any of his options at all. Which we don't. Which produces multiple levels of retardedness.

Destroy would be the "go to hell, catalyst" choice, if it was figured out by Shepard themselves and the catalyst would oppose it as best he can. The way it is presented now - it's one of his solutions to a problem I don't think exists.

#141
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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wantedman dan wrote...

You point to being railroaded into a choice by a critial mission failure menu as proof that the Reapers are "winning?"


No, the fact that the Reapers are decimating the fleets is the proof.

#142
ardensia

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a.m.p wrote...

ardensia wrote...

Understood. By this logic, as soon as the Catalyst says, "That button over there will destroy us all," Shep should go, "Done!" and shoot it... preferably without walking into the explodey range, which I really never understood from a logic point of view.

No, no ,no. Shooting a tube that the little glowing reaper boss says will destroy reapers does not mean mistrusting the little glowing reaper boss. Shepard doesn't know what would happen if they shoot this tube. Nobody gave them a manual about how to turn on the crucible. Moreover, what reason is there to believe that a superweapon that destroys all reapers is turned on by shooting one of it's components?

See, that is the problem. The way the scene is designed makes trusting him not a choice at all and all those walls of text I keep posting about it are trying to explain this. The way the scene is currently designed the only way trusting him can become a choice is if we get to not pick any of his options at all. Which we don't. Which produces multiple levels of retardedness.

Destroy would be the "go to hell, catalyst" choice, if it was figured out by Shepard themselves and the catalyst would oppose it as best he can. The way it is presented now - it's one of his solutions to a problem I don't think exists.


So, you want the choice to trust him, which can only be shown if you have the option to not trust him, and you are disinclined to trust him in the first place because he's the boss of the Reapers, and it makes no sense to inherently trust someone who just told you they're the boss of the things that are trying to genocide everyone.

Which means the question this thread is attempting to answer (assuming your thoughts are in line with the OP, which they probably are) isn't why someone would agree with the Catalyst. It's why the game devs would force this agreement on the players.

Am I right yet? Sorry, I tend to be a very literal person, and the fact that I get paid to be so probably doesn't help.

#143
Bill Casey

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a.m.p wrote...

ardensia wrote...

Understood. By this logic, as soon as the Catalyst says, "That button over there will destroy us all," Shep should go, "Done!" and shoot it... preferably without walking into the explodey range, which I really never understood from a logic point of view.

No, no ,no. Shooting a tube that the little glowing reaper boss says will destroy reapers does not mean mistrusting the little glowing reaper boss. Shepard doesn't know what would happen if they shoot this tube. Nobody gave them a manual about how to turn on the crucible. Moreover, what reason is there to believe that a superweapon that destroys all reapers is turned on by shooting one of it's components?

See, that is the problem. The way the scene is designed makes trusting him not a choice at all and all those walls of text I keep posting about it are trying to explain this. The way the scene is currently designed the only way trusting him can become a choice is if we get to not pick any of his options at all. Which we don't. Which produces multiple levels of retardedness.

Destroy would be the "go to hell, catalyst" choice, if it was figured out by Shepard themselves and the catalyst would oppose it as best he can. The way it is presented now - it's one of his solutions to a problem I don't think exists.


The Catalyst doesn't tell you how to destroy the Reapers...
You see Anderson doing it in your head...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 mai 2012 - 07:54 .


#144
a.m.p

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Bill Casey wrote...
The Catalyst doesn't tell you how to destroy the Reapers...
You see Anderson doing it in your head...

So you're saying that it's okay to trust my hallucination about how to destroy reapers that I am having in the presence of an entity that assumed the form of a child it had taken from my memory?

@ardensia
I personally want the choice to not trust him. The presence of that choice would make someone else's choice to trust him a real choice rather than the worst kind of railroading imaginable.

#145
ardensia

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a.m.p wrote...

@ardensia
I personally want the choice to not trust him. The presence of that choice would make someone else's choice to trust him a real choice rather than the worst kind of railroading imaginable.


Mmm. Thank you, I think I understand your position better.

#146
a.m.p

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ardensia wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

@ardensia
I personally want the choice to not trust him. The presence of that choice would make someone else's choice to trust him a real choice rather than the worst kind of railroading imaginable.


Mmm. Thank you, I think I understand your position better.

Thank you. I wish you worked at Bioware.

Thing is that type of choice is something they have repeatedly handled well throughout the trilogy. Whenever I was facing something I did not necessarily trust I always had the option to say "screw that, let's blow it up" or something similar.

I wasn't forced to trust the rachni queen. It was a choice. I wasn't forced to activate Legion or drag Grunt out of his tank. Sure, they are squadmates and this is a videogame so everyone does that anyway, but the very presence of the option, something any rational person with half a brain would consider, makes it a choice.
Legion's loyalty, even the collector base, as weird and unexplained as that choice was, the second encounter with the rachni queen. I could go on.
And at the end when everything depends on your choice - it's suddenly taken away.

No wonder IT persists. It explains why Shepard is not behaving like Shepard, among other things.

#147
Noelemahc

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No wonder IT persists. It explains why Shepard is not behaving like Shepard, among other things.

I'd attribute it all to a concussion and entrust the Final Decision to an RNG then, but add several more outcomes of an increasingly Silent Hill nature, some of which would go the extent of:

* Shep sustained too much damage in final battle? Oops, he/she bleeds out before making a decision, enjoy your extinction event
* Shep realizes he's been talking to thin air, as he hallucinated the child from his nightmares due to blood loss, finds clearly labeled control panel, presses buttons at random as more hallucinations start to surround him - everyone who qualified to be a ghost voice in the nightmares - and the black shadows encircle the glowy ghosts and grow more numerous as we see Reapers blow up Alliance ships (to show that it's all whose deaths are on Shepard), until the Crucible activates and a brilliant flash of light wipes them all away until the ghosts remain, and then Shepard remains alone, crumpled on the floor, in a pool of blood, as we switch to the Red Ending's cutscenes
(occurs only if more Renegade than Paragon)
Iterative (hallucinated child, but no indoc):
* Saved Collector Base? Convinced TIM into suicide? Control is what you get, but no immolation, a brain upload (via tentacular cords springing up), showing Shep coalesce digitized as an Avina-like hologram next to his/her collapsing body.
* United Quarians and Geth? Made peace everywhere you went? Didn't shoot down EDI's transhumanist leanings? Synthesis is what you get, showing the effect in minute detail on Shepard, as he succumbs to his wounds not being very friendly towards the cybernetization.

Etc, etc.

With Harbinger providing a blow-by-blow voiceover account of what's happening (a-la ME2), complete with his voice tearing down in Destroy, his voice being edged out by a Reaperized Shepard voice in Control, or becoming tinged with emotion in Synthesis. That would make everything far far easier to comprehend without having the Starchild be real.

Having an RNG determine what Shepard, who never held a Crucible For Dummies book in his hand, ever, would be far more logical, methinks, and would reflect our past choices based off who worked on the Crucible and with what mindset (i.e. a Xen that didn't do her experiments and got locked up for them would be a lot less hostile towards synthetics than a Xen that decided to kill innocents to figure out how the Citadel works).

Modifié par Noelemahc, 11 mai 2012 - 09:08 .


#148
ardensia

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a.m.p wrote...

Thank you. I wish you worked at Bioware.

Thing is that type of choice is something they have repeatedly handled well throughout the trilogy. Whenever I was facing something I did not necessarily trust I always had the option to say "screw that, let's blow it up" or something similar.

I wasn't forced to trust the rachni queen. It was a choice. I wasn't forced to activate Legion or drag Grunt out of his tank. Sure, they are squadmates and this is a videogame so everyone does that anyway, but the very presence of the option, something any rational person with half a brain would consider, makes it a choice.
Legion's loyalty, even the collector base, as weird and unexplained as that choice was, the second encounter with the rachni queen. I could go on.
And at the end when everything depends on your choice - it's suddenly taken away.

No wonder IT persists. It explains why Shepard is not behaving like Shepard, among other things.


I wish I did, too, even with the worst possible fallout from all this, but I think I'd have to get a Canadian work permit or something if I wanted a place at that shiny office in Edmonton. :D


I've heard people say their choices didn't matter at the end, but as this is usually followed up with a comment about red, green, and blue, I didn't put much stock into it. As someone who took the endings at face value (see aforementioned literal personality), I saw a HUGE difference in the choice you made at the end and the implications they had on the rest of the galaxy, as have several of my "pro-ender" compadres. But what you're talking about is something different, and I think you have a valid point.

As someone who game masters tabletop games, I can understand the appeal of railroading in an RPG. When you're essentially game mastering for hundreds of thousands of people across the world, railroading becomes a bigger appeal. After all, you have to wrap uo all those stories somehow, and each of these stories is unique. How the bloody hell do you do it without railroading?

One of the current campaigns I'm running is going to require a LOT from my players when they get to the end bits. Until they get there, it's my job as the storyteller to gradually bring their individual characters in line with my main plot. It's quite a task. But the advantage I have over BioWare is that I know these people and their characters personally, whereas BioWare just doesn't have that option.

I think, ideally, they wanted to bring the player and their version of Shepard (I know they say there's no cannon Shepard, but there are definitely cannon things about Shepard, no matter how you play) into synch in the first two games. Ideally, if they had done this, you have less problem with the loss of the dialogue wheel. And ideally, when you get to the end, you're enough in synch with where they wanted you to go that you're ok with the choices presented to you, despite the fact that even in the best circumstances they are hardly stellar choices.

Problem is, most people are not going to fall in synch so easily. Setting aside both Western culture's reverence of individuality and even the game's internal systems playing into that, no two people are exactly alike. While statistically some of us probably had extremely similar games, we are individuals, and even those people with similar games might pull completely different things out of it, or have made the choices they made for very different reasons. And the scope of Mass Effect is freaking huge and chock full of little choices and subtle differences.

And thus you end up with a split fanbase, where those who managed to synch up with the game dev's thoughts are... while mostly not 100% content, at least not upset by the endings, and you have everyone else, who feels trapped, tricked, and cheated out of one of the things we all loved most about the game: the element of choice. What's more, we're not even given an understanding as to why we don't have this choice, and I think this is the big key issue.

I think this lack of choice and explanation was less of a big deal to us "pro-enders" (and I guess I should specify that I use the term loosely, since it seems to mean anyone who doesn't hate the end) because we were still able to accomplish whatever we had hoped to accomplish in the game without it. How much of this was letting ourselves be railroaded and how much has to do with our personalities just matching up right is one of those individual experience things again, but either way, it allowed us to take a lot more satisfaction from the final scenes than most people were granted.

Our relative contentedness, however, does not justify bad writing. It is entirely possible to leave the things open to speculation while still providing understanding of the events that are taking place immediately around Shepard. Most people aren't comfortable trusting pseudo-divine beings they just met, and very, very few people are truly comfortable with the unknown. The Catalyst is an unknown entity. We know it controls the Reaper cycles. We know it is telling us stuff that it feels we should believe. We know that, to some degree or another, it can get in Shepard's head. But that's really it.

We don't know if it's an AI, or a VI, or some sort of alternate life form. We don't know if it's malicious or if it truly believes what it is doing is for the greater good of the galaxy as a whole. And we are not given the opportunity to figure this out. Thus, we are left with... speculations. And man, do those speculations run the gamut.

Without a deeper understanding of the nature of the Catalyst and its connection to the Crucible and the Reapers, every speculation from the best to the worst becomes equally valid because they all have the same lack of data to stand on. I've seen good and sound arguments for why each of the three ending choices is ideal, why each is terrible, and why it's best to do nothing. I've seen cohesive arguments both for and against IT. I've read plenty of reasons why people feel the ending is in line with the series, and plenty for why it just doesn't fit.

And, for better or worse, until we get the EC, we're left to flounder in all these possibilities. The best we can do between now and then is try and understand why these possibilities exist, and try and withhold judgment on those who hold to ones we disagree with until we've received our clarification.

Then we will all throw pies at the losers, 'cause that's how we roll.

Modifié par ardensia, 11 mai 2012 - 10:14 .


#149
christrek1982

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TSA_383 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...

Why on this insane ravaged F@#$%^&  planet would anyone choose to believe the Starbrat , Starchild , Godchild ,or  Being of light words as law ?
This is the commander , creator of the enemy we have been trying to stop for three games and when it saids you have these choices we do it ?
illiogical , idiotic , stupid , moronic .... etc ... really ?

I absolutely knowmy Shepard would never have giving in to this , damn I've proving quite the opposite for the past two games and five years....




Then reject his "solutions" and blow up the red tube, and live ;)


but only if you have 4000+ ships and men because the amount of men you have somhow affect how you do in a mind battle with the reapers maybe the all shout at shepherd and takes 4000+ men for shep to hear them.

#150
Eire Icon

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ardensia wrote...

[So, you want the choice to trust him, which can only be shown if you have the option to not trust him, and you are disinclined to trust him in the first place because he's the boss of the Reapers, and it makes no sense to inherently trust someone who just told you they're the boss of the things that are trying to genocide everyone.

Which means the question this thread is attempting to answer (assuming your thoughts are in line with the OP, which they probably are) isn't why someone would agree with the Catalyst. It's why the game devs would force this agreement on the players.

Am I right yet? Sorry, I tend to be a very literal person, and the fact that I get paid to be so probably doesn't help.


I just don't know why the "Why does Shepard trust the Catalyst" question keeps coming up

Shepard has no options but the ones presented to him by the Catalyst. If he does not make a choice the cycle continues, and all advanced organic life is wiped out

He has nothing to lose by making the choice, he has everything to lose by not making a choice.

Shepard never indicates he agrees with the Catalyst or believes him to be right at any stage

People are dying, fleets are being destroyed, worlds are falling. The Catalyst is giving Shepard an option to end this

The Catalyst believes his logic to be correct, he neither needs nor seeks Shepards agreement