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[bahamutomega]

The Angry One wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

httinks2006 wrote...

Why on this insane ravaged F@#$%^&  planet would anyone choose to believe the Starbrat , Starchild , Godchild ,or  Being of light words as law ?
This is the commander , creator of the enemy we have been trying to stop for three games and when it saids you have these choices we do it ?
illiogical , idiotic , stupid , moronic .... etc ... really ?

I absolutely knowmy Shepard would never have giving in to this , damn I've proving quite the opposite for the past two games and five years....

Then reject his "solutions" and blow up the red tube, and live

Destroy is one of it's solutions.
The fact that destroy ****s over the Reapers just as much as everyone else doesn't change that it's one of it's solutions.

So here are your Reaper leader approved solutions:

- Screw everybody.
- Screw everybody except the Reapers.
- Turn everybody into a Reaper.

Victorious and uplifting!

this goes back to the OP's point - do you really trust anything out of the starchild's holographic mouth?

let me ask you this - you are the controller of a supreme race of beings on the verge of destruction.  you have the opportunity to meet with the being responsible for putting you under the guillotine.  you have one last chance to convince this being to not do away with you.

do you:
A) tell this being the truth, thus ensuring the enslavement, devolution or destruction of your supremely powerful race?
or
tell this obviously confused, injured and tired being a lie with just enough bait to convince them that it is the truth?

if you selected A, you just joined the idiot list.  i'll even spell it out for you: no being will EVER surrender itself to extinction without a fight.  especially if you have been doing this for millions of years!!!

there are no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about it.

i don't trust the idiot-child.  i'll put my faith in indoctrination or "they just plain screwed it up"

[Eire Icon]

bahamutomega wrote...

this goes back to the OP's point - do you really trust anything out of the starchild's holographic mouth?"

trust is irrelevent, you are out of options - You either accept the choices he presents you or the Reapers wipe out all advanced organic life. You have nothing to gain by not making a choice

bahamutomega wrote...

let me ask you this - you are the controller of a supreme race of beings on the verge of destruction.  you have the opportunity to meet with the being responsible for putting you under the guillotine.  you have one last chance to convince this being to not do away with you.
"

How exactly are they on the verge of destruction - The Reapers are winning the war

bahamutomega wrote...
do you:
A) tell this being the truth, thus ensuring the enslavement, devolution or destruction of your supremely powerful race?
or
tell this obviously confused, injured and tired being a lie with just enough bait to convince them that it is the truth?

if you selected A, you just joined the idiot list.  i'll even spell it out for you: no being will EVER surrender itself to extinction without a fight.  especially if you have been doing this for millions of years!!!

there are no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about it.
?"

Completely illogical - if the Catalyst wanted to lie to Shepard to save the Reapers he would simply have not mentioned destroy as an option

Modifié par Eire Icon, 11 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Erield]

Eire Icon wrote...

I just don't know why the "Why does Shepard trust the Catalyst" question keeps coming up

Shepard has no options but the ones presented to him by the Catalyst. If he does not make a choice the cycle continues, and all advanced organic life is wiped out

He has nothing to lose by making the choice, he has everything to lose by not making a choice.

Shepard never indicates he agrees with the Catalyst or believes him to be right at any stage

People are dying, fleets are being destroyed, worlds are falling. The Catalyst is giving Shepard an option to end this

The Catalyst believes his logic to be correct, he neither needs nor seeks Shepards agreement 

There's a rather nice post by a.m.p. at the bottom of page 5 that gives specific reasons why trusting the Star Child is a Bad Idea.

My opinion on the part of your post I bolded--Let's pretend you get a time machine, and you head to **** Germany in 1940 to kill Hitler.  You manage to lose your weapon, but when you bust down the door to Hitler's Hideout, there's some fancy thing that looks like maybe it's a gun or something.  You put it to Hitler's head, and he's all, "Look, I was just doing what was best for the German people.  Ya know, you're right though, maybe things should have been done differently.  That majigger you have there?  If you pull the trigger, you'll kill me.  It's an explosive round though, so it might kill you too.  If you push the button on it, then it'll send out electric waves through the room; this would kill you, but let you control everything that it zaps.  Or, you could eat the majigger, and it'll make everyone have the same skin color so we can pick on each other anymore.  Oh, but you'd die if you did that.  Make your choice."

Why would you believe what he said?  The matters of what's going on is, in that moment, completely secondary to the fact that the leader of the forces you have been trying to fight for years has given you three seemingly arbitrary things you can do with your home-made doomsday device.  His logic does not factor into the equation of believing him or not (for this argument.)  You grasping the handles could just result in your death, and nothing happening--Reapers win.  You shooting the tube could result in the Crucible being destroyed, but not firing--Reapers win.  You jumping into the Beam could just result in you dying, not Crucible firing--Reapers win.

You have every reason to believe that the ways he tells you to activate the Crucible are complete and utter hogwash.  You have no reason at all to believe that they will do anything that is, in any way shape or form, useful or helpful in actually defeating the Reapers.

[The Night Mammoth]

Eire Icon wrote...

bahamutomega wrote...

this goes back to the OP's point - do you really trust anything out of the starchild's holographic mouth?"

trust is irrelevent, you are out of options - You either accept the choices he presents you or the Reapers wipe out all advanced organic life. You have nothing to gain by not making a choice

Trust is entirely relevant. All the information you have about the functions of the Crucible is given by the Catalyst. Why should Shepard trust it when it takes the form of a child that died on Earth, and that Shepard subsequently subconsciously focuses her grief and fear on, and who then tells you it controls the Reapers. 

You're supposed to trust it, supposed to be concerned over its dilemna about synthetic life, but there's no reason to other than being out of options, and if I can't trust it I should be finding a new solution, or at least quizzing the the thing to death about every little detail. 

bahamutomega wrote...

let me ask you this - you are the controller of a supreme race of beings on the verge of destruction.  you have the opportunity to meet with the being responsible for putting you under the guillotine.  you have one last chance to convince this being to not do away with you.
"

How exactly are they on the verge of destruction - The Reapers are winning the war

The Crucible is locked in and ready to be fired. Apparently it's going to destroy the Reapers using the Citadel as a focusing mechanism. 

bahamutomega wrote...
do you:
A) tell this being the truth, thus ensuring the enslavement, devolution or destruction of your supremely powerful race?
or
tell this obviously confused, injured and tired being a lie with just enough bait to convince them that it is the truth?

if you selected A, you just joined the idiot list.  i'll even spell it out for you: no being will EVER surrender itself to extinction without a fight.  especially if you have been doing this for millions of years!!!

there are no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about it.
?"

Completely illogical - if the Catalyst wanted to lie to Shepard to save the Reapers he would simply have not mentioned destroy as an option

Who knows what the Catalyst wants. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 mai 2012 - 11:16 .

[Eire Icon]

Erield wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

I just don't know why the "Why does Shepard trust the Catalyst" question keeps coming up

Shepard has no options but the ones presented to him by the Catalyst. If he does not make a choice the cycle continues, and all advanced organic life is wiped out

He has nothing to lose by making the choice, he has everything to lose by not making a choice.

Shepard never indicates he agrees with the Catalyst or believes him to be right at any stage

People are dying, fleets are being destroyed, worlds are falling. The Catalyst is giving Shepard an option to end this

The Catalyst believes his logic to be correct, he neither needs nor seeks Shepards agreement 

There's a rather nice post by a.m.p. at the bottom of page 5 that gives specific reasons why trusting the Star Child is a Bad Idea.

My opinion on the part of your post I bolded--Let's pretend you get a time machine, and you head to **** Germany in 1940 to kill Hitler.  You manage to lose your weapon, but when you bust down the door to Hitler's Hideout, there's some fancy thing that looks like maybe it's a gun or something.  You put it to Hitler's head, and he's all, "Look, I was just doing what was best for the German people.  Ya know, you're right though, maybe things should have been done differently.  That majigger you have there?  If you pull the trigger, you'll kill me.  It's an explosive round though, so it might kill you too.  If you push the button on it, then it'll send out electric waves through the room; this would kill you, but let you control everything that it zaps.  Or, you could eat the majigger, and it'll make everyone have the same skin color so we can pick on each other anymore.  Oh, but you'd die if you did that.  Make your choice."

Why would you believe what he said?  The matters of what's going on is, in that moment, completely secondary to the fact that the leader of the forces you have been trying to fight for years has given you three seemingly arbitrary things you can do with your home-made doomsday device.  His logic does not factor into the equation of believing him or not (for this argument.)  You grasping the handles could just result in your death, and nothing happening--Reapers win.  You shooting the tube could result in the Crucible being destroyed, but not firing--Reapers win.  You jumping into the Beam could just result in you dying, not Crucible firing--Reapers win.

You have every reason to believe that the ways he tells you to activate the Crucible are complete and utter hogwash.  You have no reason at all to believe that they will do anything that is, in any way shape or form, useful or helpful in actually defeating the Reapers.

If you do nothing the Reapers will win - correct ?

Your argument would hold up if Shepard had some sort of a plan B but he dosen't. Shepard has no idea how the crucible works. Its not like he was going to do one thing and the Catalyst is convincing him to do something different

The fact is that the Reapers are winning. If the Catalysts motivation is a Reaper victory he does not have to do anything. He could simply ignore Shepard.

To use your analogy above, if your pointing a weapon at Hitler and you don't know how to fire it, all he would have to do is simply say nothing. He wouldn't tell you how to fire it

[Erield]

Eire Icon wrote...

If you do nothing the Reapers will win - correct ?

Your argument would hold up if Shepard had some sort of a plan B but he dosen't. Shepard has no idea how the crucible works. Its not like he was going to do one thing and the Catalyst is convincing him to do something different

The fact is that the Reapers are winning. If the Catalysts motivation is a Reaper victory he does not have to do anything. He could simply ignore Shepard.

To use your analogy above, if your pointing a weapon at Hitler and you don't know how to fire it, all he would have to do is simply say nothing. He wouldn't tell you how to fire it

Here's a Plan B.

"Admiral Hackett:  Have all ships open fire on the Citadel.  The being Controlling the Reapers is here.  Destroy it, and we may have a chance at winning this thing."

At the point when the leader of your enemy seems to  know what your secret weapon does, and you yourself don't, you may want to NOT activate it.  There's every reason to believe that it's an instant "I win" button for the Reapers.  If this is the case, it becomes vital to let future Cycles know to not waste the resources of the entire galaxy in building it.

[a.m.p]

Eire Icon wrote...

If you do nothing the Reapers will win - correct ?

Your argument would hold up if Shepard had some sort of a plan B but he dosen't. Shepard has no idea how the crucible works. Its not like he was going to do one thing and the Catalyst is convincing him to do something different

The fact is that the Reapers are winning. If the Catalysts motivation is a Reaper victory he does not have to do anything. He could simply ignore Shepard.

To use your analogy above, if your pointing a weapon at Hitler and you don't know how to fire it, all he would have to do is simply say nothing. He wouldn't tell you how to fire it

Shepard has at least one plan B, apart from everything that can be done (see post above) now that it's revealed that the entity that to some degree controls reapers sits on the citadel. But let's not talk about it now, Bioware obviously wanted the whole galaxy to be morons who can't come up with a proper plan B on what to do if the thing they have no guarantee will work will actually not work.

Let's instead talk about the plan B that we were allowed to have. The time capsule and the warning for the next cycle (see also post above).
See, the catalyst says that whatever Shepard picks, Shepard dies. So if it does nothing, Shepard won't be around to tell anyone that the crucible is a trap that is meant to draw resources away from building useful stuff like ships and weapons.

So the next cycle will recover the capsule that tells them to build the crucible. If they are morons too, they will build it. It will ensure their defeat. The cycle will go on and everything will be for nothing.

Modifié par a.m.p, 11 mai 2012 - 11:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

wantedman dan wrote...

Just like every other genocidal maniac believes that killing off a people en masse truly helps the people not being killed.

Since that is not the Catalyst's mission or purpose, so what?

The Catalyst isn't trying to enforce any form of permanent peace. It's trying to prevent a technological singularity exclipsing organic life forever.

[a.m.p]

@ardensia
About railroading and canon Shepard.
I completely understand that you can't provide every possible choice anyone may want.
For example that first rachni choice was distinctly lacking a neutral "leave the council to decide this" option. But that might complicate the story and it was left out. I can understand that and I can come up with justification why my Shepard didn't/couldn't do that. The existing choices are more or less sufficient.

I guess what I am saying is that your railroading should make sense. You must be able to explain (in less than 5 leaps of logic) why the options you are giving are limited to what they are.

And yes, there are a few facts about Shepard that are true regardless of what Shepard you play.

And the mind-boggling thing about the ending is that it disregards exactly these canon facts. I can honestly not imagine a Shepard who would not question what starchild is telling them. Can you?

Modifié par a.m.p, 11 mai 2012 - 11:53 .

[hoodaticus]

httinks2006 wrote...

Why on this insane ravaged F@#$%^&  planet would anyone choose to believe the Starbrat , Starchild , Godchild ,or  Being of light words as law ?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkIazqMKiv-wE6smIFtmg19lqyMtUSRc4k3kNfhaoai-EZnndJFLBBZVzb

[Eire Icon]

Erield wrote...

Here's a Plan B.

"Admiral Hackett:  Have all ships open fire on the Citadel.  The being Controlling the Reapers is here.  Destroy it, and we may have a chance at winning this thing."

At the point when the leader of your enemy seems to  know what your secret weapon does, and you yourself don't, you may want to NOT activate it.  There's every reason to believe that it's an instant "I win" button for the Reapers.  If this is the case, it becomes vital to let future Cycles know to not waste the resources of the entire galaxy in building it.

And the Reapers destroy the remainder of the fleet - not a good plan

[The Night Mammoth]

Eire Icon wrote...

Erield wrote...

Here's a Plan B.

"Admiral Hackett:  Have all ships open fire on the Citadel.  The being Controlling the Reapers is here.  Destroy it, and we may have a chance at winning this thing."

At the point when the leader of your enemy seems to  know what your secret weapon does, and you yourself don't, you may want to NOT activate it.  There's every reason to believe that it's an instant "I win" button for the Reapers.  If this is the case, it becomes vital to let future Cycles know to not waste the resources of the entire galaxy in building it.

And the Reapers destroy the remainder of the fleet - not a good plan

Since this is entirely into the realm of the hypothetical: no.

The Reapers are happered by a lack of coordination, they're confused and disorginized, some just stop altogether. 

In comes the Desinty Ascension.

[Eire Icon]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Since this is entirely into the realm of the hypothetical: no.

The Reapers are happered by a lack of coordination, they're confused and disorginized, some just stop altogether. 

In comes the Desinty Ascension.

To me that would be 100 times worse then what we have - Reapers are the product of entire civilizations being harvested, they are intellignet sentient life, both organic and syntethic. They do not get "Confused" or "Disorganized"

[Erield]

Eire Icon wrote...

Erield wrote...

Here's a Plan B.

"Admiral Hackett:  Have all ships open fire on the Citadel.  The being Controlling the Reapers is here.  Destroy it, and we may have a chance at winning this thing."

At the point when the leader of your enemy seems to  know what your secret weapon does, and you yourself don't, you may want to NOT activate it.  There's every reason to believe that it's an instant "I win" button for the Reapers.  If this is the case, it becomes vital to let future Cycles know to not waste the resources of the entire galaxy in building it.

And the Reapers destroy the remainder of the fleet - not a good plan

Do they?

Star Brat: "I Control the Reapers."  (or maybe it was "I control them."  Something to that very pointed, specific effect.)

I was left with a very strong impression that without the Star Brat, the Reapers would be free to make other choices.  In essence, they are Shackled AI, and the Star Brat is the shackle.  This could result in the whole tech singularity thing the kiddo was talking about, or it could result in them falling over dead, or even stopping in horror at having become what destroyed them.

Your plan of "LETZ DO EET ANYWAY NO MATTER WHAT! HURRAH HURRAH!" very quickly and easily falls into the "OH **** IT WAS A GOD DAMN TRAP AND NO ONE KNOWS" problem.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vurculac wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How is it hyperbole? The Catalyst has murdered trillions. This is a fact.
It tries to sugar-coat it by calling it "ascension" (nevermind the ones it outright blows up, kills, suffocates and tortures).
It's assertions are based entirely on an appeal to it's own authority and the idea that in ifinite time, the possible becomes inevitable.
By that logic, given enough time, the Reapers themselves will blow up the universe.

The point is, you don't have to agree with someone's logic for it to be valid logic.

Many criminals are stupid,  but there are a few smart ones out there that logically came to the decision of a life of crime. That doesn't make them maniacs.

Same for the "omnicide" part. It truly believes that what it is doing saves organics. It isn't doing it for a visceral thrill.

So if I start a murder rampage in my neigborhood to save them all from being killed by say a tornado or earthquake, that would be cool as long as my intentions are noble and I get no pleasure at all from it? It doesn't matter what the Starkid believes, the fact remains that the Reapers are responsible for killing trillions of people. Not cool under any circumstance.

Please, dear, there are enough strawmen going on already. Eternal never said that the Reapers were justified in their actions, or in any morally-correct position, or that their answer was for the best.

To make your own example, your logic would be correct in a very specific sense: if you kill people yourself, they would not be killed by the natural disaster. The logic is sound on the specific issue, because the problem (death by natural disaster) is prevented.

The broader implication is what is flawed, but that's not an issue of logic: that's an issue of definition. Though your issue to be prevented is 'death by natural disaster' (I realize I summarized it for you, but just run with it), your actual concern is 'death'. Death by any other cause is just as dead as death by natural disaster.

In this heirarchy of thought 'preventing death' is a super-goal: 'preventing death by natural disaster' is the subgoal. The reason your strawman is absurd is because your solution to your sub-goal violates your super-goal.


The issue that can arrise, quite easily with programs but also with people, is when a sub-goal supplants a super-goal intent. A super-goal can be misinterpreted, implied but not stated, or simply poorly defined and thus allow for a fulfillment of a sub-goal that invalidates a larger intent. Priorities can also be subverted: the famous Asimov's Laws of Robotics can be negated by selective definition of 'Humanity', or information control within a robot's network or a network of robots.


Many people attack the Catalyst logic as faulty without understanding it. The Catalyst isn't being driven by a broad super-goal: it's priority is not to establish peace, prevent the development of AI, or even to prevent the destruction of civilizations from any source. The Catalyst is being driven by a narrow sub-goal: prevent the the total destruction of organics by a technological singularity.

Obviously from a super-goal standpoint, this has a number of flaws. But those flaws aren't logical in nature: they are flaws in executing intent. We consider our destruction by the Reapers to be just as bad if not worse than destruction by any unknown technological singularity. That is why the Reaper solution doesn't work for us. Not because the logic directing the Reapers is invalid: they certainly have stopped any hostile singularity from eclipsing organic life permanently. But because the sub-goal solution doesn't meet our super-goal.

[Eire Icon]

Vurculac wrote...

Maybe, maybe not. The Reapers are going to destroy the fleet anyway if you do nothing at all. This plan B is as valid as any. in the end the only real clear choices are 1) Fight the extinction event to the last man or 2) Lie down and die. Personally, under the circumstances if I have to go down, I'd rather go down swinging. I certianly would not care one way or another as to what the commander of the reapers had to say at all at this point.

If I have a choice between picking one of the Catalysts options or humanity being wiped out  I'm going to go with one of the Catalyst choices

And there is no "Maybe, Maybe not" - Throughout the entire game its said numerous times that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally. Are we honestly suggesting that the entire galaxy just miscalculated ?

[Noelemahc]

And yes, there are a few facts about Shepard that are true regardless of what Shepard you play.

And the mind-boggling thing about the ending is that it disregards exactly these canon facts. I can honestly not imagine a Shepard who would not question what starchild is telling them. Can you?

Yesyes. The key among them is that "submission is not preferrable to extinction". As I said in several other threads, every single one of Shepard's talks with EDI about her evolving humanity disproves pretty much every argument the Starchild uses (and in general underlines how hamfisted the ending is). The line about decision making takes the cake.

"I cannot make such a decision in a moral vacuum. I would have to consult members of the crew to find out their opinions on the subject."

And the Reapers destroy the remainder of the fleet - not a good plan

Not quite. We don't know what the Crucible does any more than we know what killing the Starchild would achieve. As far as Shepard is concerned, in-universe, blowing up the Citadel, the throne of the evil AI God, is far safer than activating this Aperture-Science-We-Don't-Know-What-It-Does.

"I knew Durandal, mister. Now that was a godlike AI. And you sir, are no Durandal."

And there is no "Maybe, Maybe not" - Throughout the entire game its said
numerous times that the Reapers can't be beaten conventionally. Are we
honestly suggesting that the entire galaxy just miscalculated ?

We had a whole thread devoted to that. No consensus thus far other than "well, either the Reapers are total idiots if they can't eliminate us with their superiority, or there aren't as many as we originally thought (why else would they use divide-and-conquer instead of brute obliteration?) and conventional victory is plausible".

Modifié par Noelemahc, 11 mai 2012 - 12:15 .

[Erield]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Obviously from a super-goal standpoint, this has a number of flaws. But those flaws aren't logical in nature: they are flaws in executing intent. We consider our destruction by the Reapers to be just as bad if not worse than destruction by any unknown technological singularity. That is why the Reaper solution doesn't work for us. Not because the logic directing the Reapers is invalid: they certainly have stopped any hostile singularity from eclipsing organic life permanently. But because the sub-goal solution doesn't meet our super-goal.

You routinely surprise me with the quality of your posts, and I don't know why; after the nth time it happened I should just expect you to be intelligent.  Anyway, I agree and disagree with your post.  I still feel that the logic behind the Star Child is flawed.

The Star Child's logic is something like this--
Problem: The Created will always rebel against their Creators
Solution: Use a Synthetic (Created) race, ie the Reapers, to ensure that Organic life will not be wiped out.

The Star Child is using the defined problem as the solution. 

[Eire Icon]

Erield wrote...

I was left with a very strong impression that without the Star Brat, the Reapers would be free to make other choices.  In essence, they are Shackled AI, and the Star Brat is the shackle.  This could result in the whole tech singularity thing the kiddo was talking about, or it could result in them falling over dead, or even stopping in horror at having become what destroyed them.

Firstly - Is there anything in game that supports this?

Secondly - The Catalyst is part of the Citadel, the only way to destroy him is to destroy the Citadel. The Citadel is an inactive Mass Relay which means unless the fleets have an asteroid hanging around that they can propel into it, t seriously doubt that the reapers will sit and watch them try to destroy something that is all but indestructable

Erield wrote...
Your plan of "LETZ DO EET ANYWAY NO MATTER WHAT! HURRAH HURRAH!" very quickly and easily falls into the "OH **** IT WAS A GOD DAMN TRAP AND NO ONE KNOWS" problem.

I must have missed my post where I laid out that plan

Modifié par Eire Icon, 11 mai 2012 - 12:26 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Eire Icon wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Since this is entirely into the realm of the hypothetical: no.

The Reapers are happered by a lack of coordination, they're confused and disorginized, some just stop altogether. 

In comes the Desinty Ascension.

To me that would be 100 times worse then what we have - Reapers are the product of entire civilizations being harvested, they are intellignet sentient life, both organic and syntethic. They do not get "Confused" or "Disorganized"

They aren't controlled by a holographic kid either, right? 

[Eire Icon]

Noelemahc wrote...

And the Reapers destroy the remainder of the fleet - not a good plan

Not quite. We don't know what the Crucible does any more than we know what killing the Starchild would achieve. As far as Shepard is concerned, in-universe, blowing up the Citadel, the throne of the evil AI God, is far safer than activating this Aperture-Science-We-Don't-Know-What-It-Does.
".

Taken from Mass Efect Wiki

"The station's hull is sufficiently strong that, even when subjected to the most advanced weaponry available, it would take several days of sustained bombardment to inflict any serious damage to the superstructure. "

How exactly are people proposing that the CItadel/Catalyst is destroyed ??

[Erield]

Eire Icon wrote...

Erield wrote...

I was left with a very strong impression that without the Star Brat, the Reapers would be free to make other choices.  In essence, they are Shackled AI, and the Star Brat is the shackle.  This could result in the whole tech singularity thing the kiddo was talking about, or it could result in them falling over dead, or even stopping in horror at having become what destroyed them.

Firstly - Is there anything in game that supports this?

Secondly - The Catalyst is part of the Citadel, the only way to destroy him is to destroy the Citadel. The Citadel is an inactive Mass Relay which means unless the fleets have an asteroid hanging around that they can propel into it, t seriously doubt that the reapers will sit and watch them try to destroy something that is all but indestructable

Erield wrote...
Your plan of "LETZ DO EET ANYWAY NO MATTER WHAT! HURRAH HURRAH!" very quickly and easily falls into the "OH **** IT WAS A GOD DAMN TRAP AND NO ONE KNOWS" problem.

I must have missed my post where I laid out that plan

Firstly -- The Star Child specifically says he controls the Reapers.  They don't have free will any more than Saren had free will.  Remove the Controller, and you remove the Control.  Maybe.  It makes sense to think it would be that way, anyhow.  What happens after that point is entirely, 100% speculation.  The Reapers may actually be nothing more than glorified husks, that will act independently even without any active Reapers--but not in any way that could remotely be considered benign.  At

Secondly -- The arms of the Citadel are wide open.  The combined force of the galaxy should be able to do enough damage to destroy it.

Finally -- Your entire argument is that there is no reason to not go along with the Star Child's suggestions of how to activate the Crucible, because we have nothing to lose at that point.  The Star Child knows more about the Crucible than any organic in the galaxy (or at least he claims to); if we believe that he actually knows what it does, we don't have to accept that it works the way he says it does.  The truth could be that it sends out a wave of galactic energy that immediately Indoctrinates everyone--an "I win" button for the Reapers that would completely and totally negate any other option or plan.  It is far more vital to the future of the galaxy to warn future Cycles of the presence of the Star Child on the Citadel, and the fact that it is the Arbiter of the Cycle, than to choose one of the three options it presents.

[spirosz]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You've proven nothing.

And, believing him is your choice. There's no reason to, and no reason not to.

Yet, you can't choose the latter.  You're given 3 choices that are related to believing what it stated.  

Modifié par spiros9110, 11 mai 2012 - 12:36 .