117 réponses à ce sujet

[Orogun01]

Basically the main complaint is that it wasn't RPGey enough. ME I saw as an attempt to build a hybrid and to try new things with a new IP, of course that not everybody is going to like it. Among them a majority of the old style BW. You can think of ME as either a action FPS/RPG or a role-playing FPS, what matters to me is that they tried something new and it worked for a majority and for a lot of developmental questions.

[DaeJi]

Just a guess, but I take that everyone saying that Mass Effect isn't a RPG have never played a Final Fantasy or other JRPG before. It amuses me that people believe that Mass Effect limited your choices; in any BioWare game you don't actually get to make the choices you want, you choose from the options given to you. Mass Effect was no different. The truth of the game was that it is a different style of Western RPG from something like Dragon Age: Origins; both are fine games appealing to different tastes, and both are without a doubt high quality RPGs. To say otherwise shows a lack of understanding of what a computer role playing game is.



I enjoy both, and am looking forward to Mass Effect 2.

[elijah_kaine]

Personally I loved Mass Effect. It has its' problems. Mainly the side quests, but I remember when I first played it, played for like 24 hours straight I was so into the story, beat it in one day in immediately started a new save.

I've played through the game about 4 times now (all in SD) and it's a good game that needed a lot more polish. Thankfully, Mass Effect 2 looks to be getting that. I recently just got an HDTV for the living room (starving college student here. So that took some saving up) and the game looks so breathtaking on an HDTV that I've actually managed to start -another- save. (Don't know if I'll finish it though.)

I think the combat needed a lot of work, for something that was a mix of shooter and role playing game it didn't really do it's job as a shooter well. (Or according to most people here its job as a role-playing game well.) Aim was off, some of the battles were ridiculously difficult for unforeseeable reasons, using a sniper rifle was sometimes boring. At the same time I think I prefer the type of game-play in mass effect to that of Dragon Age Origins.

Edit: A lot of other things needed work like choppy graphics, bad loading problems, side quests. I think however Mass Effect 2 is going to really surprise and amaze. I think a dev mentioned something early along the lines of "Sequels are always better that's why you always hear people talk about Baldurs Gate 2 and not Baldurs Gate.

Modifié par elijah_kaine, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Seagloom]

DaeJi wrote...

Just a guess, but I take that everyone saying that Mass Effect isn't a RPG have never played a Final Fantasy or other JRPG before. It amuses me that people believe that Mass Effect limited your choices; in any BioWare game you don't actually get to make the choices you want, you choose from the options given to you. Mass Effect was no different. The truth of the game was that it is a different style of Western RPG from something like Dragon Age: Origins; both are fine games appealing to different tastes, and both are without a doubt high quality RPGs. To say otherwise shows a lack of understanding of what a computer role playing game is.

I enjoy both, and am looking forward to Mass Effect 2.

I grew up on JRPGs. The first game to introduce me to genre was Final Fantasy II (IV). It wasn't until I bought Baldur's Gate gold, which came bundled with a copy of Fallout, that I got hit by a one-two punch of CRPG goodness and never looked back.

Some of my favorite games of all time are JRPGs. Final Fantasy 6, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Xenogears, and Persona 2 to name a few. I recognize that all BioWare RPGs are put on rails to an extent. I mentioned as much in my last post when I wrote that I prefer games that are a blend of linearity and sandbox, or in other words, a JRPG mixed with more of a western style. BioWare's games have moved in this direction ever since Baldur's Gate 2, and although I don't agree with all their choices; I prefer the balance they struck over either extreme.

I just think that Mass Effect was more shooter than RPG. Or perhaps a shooter/adventure with more choices than the typical genre example. I can play say, X-Men Legends and actually compare it to Mass Effect. I leveled up stats for premade characters in that game and went through a story. Mass Effect allowed me to decide on more courses of action and included an abundance of dialogue by comparison, but that didn't make it feel like a well developed RPG in my opinion.

I no longer consider JRPGs true RPGs either. I still refer to them as that for convenience, but as much as I enjoyed some of them in the past, they don't allow for any actual role-playing. They're essentially interactive novels, and I far prefer to create my own character and have the freedom to direct them in some fashion beyond what they do in combat. Even if that freedom is inside the limited parameters allowed by a mostly story driven game, it's an improvement over the rigid JRPG model.

Mass Effect had a sliver of freedom. I *had* to be Shepard and my most meaningful choices often boiled down to whether I threatened and shot someone or let them go on their merry way. There were maybe three or four major decisions that didn't fit that mold in the entire game. I'm not stating other BioWare games don't have this tendency too, because they do. Only that Mass Effect did a poor job of downplaying it due to what I felt were a myriad of design flaws. It all added up to a game that felt a lot less like an RPG than anything BioWare did before.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[DaeJi]

I can understand why it may feel like a weak RPG to some; everyone has different tastes. My only gripe is saying that it isn't one. I myself do not find Mass Effect lacking in choice when compared to other BioWare games. Of course, in the grand scheme of things your character choices really only boil down to two options, good or evil (or in the case of Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins, not-a-jerk and jerk). But I respect the opinions of others who dislike it. Again, the only thing I don't respect is saying Mass Effect isn't an RPG because you didn't like it.

Modifié par DaeJi, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DaeJi wrote...

Just a guess, but I take that everyone saying that Mass Effect isn't a RPG have never played a Final Fantasy or other JRPG before.

I would have no problem saying that Final Fantasy or other JPRGs aren't RPGs, either.

Simply having the name is not sufficient.  I fail to see the connection you're making.

It amuses me that people believe that Mass Effect limited your choices

Mass Effect did limit your choices by acting out the dialogue cinematically.  It made what was implicit content explicit, thus removing any ambiguity with which the player could work.

But more importantly, the dialogue wheel itself did not limit choices.  But it did prevent you from choosing among them.  That the choices exist doesn't matter if you don't know what they are before you choose.

in any BioWare game you don't actually get to make the choices you want, you choose from the options given to you.

But the options given to you an every non-ME BioWare game were more vague, and thus allowed considerable freedom in terms of nuance and intent.

Mass Effect was no different.

Mass Effect was entirely dissimilar.

The truth of the game was that it is a different style of Western RPG from something like Dragon Age: Origins; both are fine games appealing to different tastes, and both are without a doubt high quality RPGs. To say otherwise shows a lack of understanding of what a computer role playing game is.

A computer roleplaying game must allow roleplaying.  DAO does.  Mass Effect did not.

[DaeJi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


But the options given to you an every non-ME BioWare game were more vague, and thus allowed considerable freedom in terms of nuance and intent.

I believe you misspoke here.

A computer roleplaying game must allow roleplaying.  DAO does.  Mass Effect did not.

I don't like to tell people they are wrong. The world is vast and diverse. A statement can be right in one instance and wrong in another. 

However you are, objectively and factually, wrong. Role playing in a BioWare game goes like this: you are faced with a situation, and given a list of ways to respond to it. Mass Effect did this. Just because you didn't like how it was done doesn't alter that fact. You can say that it wasn't as deep as Dragon Age: Origins, or that the charactor paths were not as complex. But Mass Effect did allow role playing. You can argue against that, but you'd be wrong. 

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Yes you are the only one because I loved Mass Effect.It wasn't perfect by any means, it had a few technical issues as we all know and the planet exploring was a bit bland at times but it worked on an RPG level as well as a gameplay level. I especially liked the cover system and the biotic powers, they really made the game for me.

[Kreidian]

Critical Miss wrote...
Felt obligated to play the game because I bought it. Rushed through it sniping everything and didn't bother about the details. When I know the identity of a main antagonist early on in a story, I turn right off. The mystery is gone.

Sorry but, WTF?

You don't find out until the last half of the game, at the earliest, who the real antagonist is in ME. It's not who you think. If anything DA is the one that reveals the main antagonist almost from the get go.


One thing I gotta wonder is how many of the people here who didn't like Mass Effect played it on the PC. Fact is ME was developed as an XBox 360 exclusive. It was never designed to be on the PC until after EA bought Bioware. Even then Bioware didn't even make the port, that was done by a third party. Having played both versions I can tell you for certain that this was not a very good port of the game to PC. There were a lot of issues with how the gameplay got translated onto the PC that made the experience much more awkward. That's not even mentioning all of the compatability issues, DRM, and wierd PC specific bugs that came with it. Trust me, it plays better on the XBox.

And just to be clear, yes, it's an RPG. It's just more action oriented hence the shooter mechanics. Just because it doesn't follow some old timer conventions doesn't make it invalid as an RPG.

[snakeoil_sean]

The only complaint I have about Mass Effect is the way the Mako handles like a pig on stilts. Otherwise, I loved it. I bought my 360 when I found out Bioware was making their next project an XBox exclusive. no regrets.

[Jonp382]

I actually much prefer the PC version to the Xbox 360 version. They did a relatively good job on the UI for the PC port.

[Orogun01]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


I would have no problem saying that Final Fantasy or other JPRGs aren't RPGs, either.

Simply having the name is not sufficient.  I fail to see the connection you're making.

Strictly speaking an RPG isn't about storytelling, the genre started as an offshoot of board RPGs on a computers with "Dungeon". It is extended to include many subgenres with the same number crunching structure.

[Ekyri]

oooh, I loved Mass Effect! Compared to Dragon Age, it had a better story, better graphics, better music, better classes, worse VA, worse companions, worse sidequests. The combat is so different it is purely based on the mood of the day! Also, I played through Mass Effect more times without getting bored than I ever will with Dragon Age, due to the fact that the classes were way more useful. In DA:O I always end up with the same specs in all classes, due to the fact that the classes are so imbalanced!

Great game!

[Sylvius the Mad]

DaeJi wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But the options given to you an every non-ME BioWare game were more vague, and thus allowed considerable freedom in terms of nuance and intent.

I believe you misspoke here.

There's a single typo.  It should read "the options given to you in every non-ME BioWare game".

However you are, objectively and factually, wrong. Role playing in a BioWare game goes like this: you are faced with a situation, and given a list of ways to respond to it.

I agree.

Mass Effect did this

No it did not.  The options were not presented to the player.  The player was forced to guess at Shepard's actions rather than choosing them.

At not point did Mass Effect tell you what Shepard would say or do as a result of you choosing a given dialogue wheel option.

Contrast that with KotOR, BG, JE, NWN, or DAO, where not only are you given entire phrases from which to choose, but then those phrases are not acted out for you, thus allowing you to have you character say anything at all consistent with those options without being tied to the specific words the writers used.

That's the difference.  Let's look at what can happen in the two types of games using the same dialogue option.  Imagine you select the dialogue option "No."

In KotOR, JE, BG, NWN, or DAO: Your character says "No."  Or he says something else that expresses the same thing.  You character could say "Not a chance."  You're given the freedom to choose the exact phrasing yourself, because the actual utterance is never portrayed within the game.  All we ever see is the reaction to your remarks, so if your character has some foible that needs to be expressed in how he structures his sentences (say he never ends a sentence with a preposition), those non-ME BioWare games fully accommodate that.

In ME: You character says "Shut up" and walks away, permanently ending the conversation.  Because the option you chose happened to be on the bottom of the wheel, Shepard is needlessly argumentative, even though that was the only way you could disagree.  You didn't want to choose yes (for whatever reason), so now you're tied to the renegade path through that quest just because you had an honest disagreement and wanted to discuss something further.

That's the difference, and it's a big one.  That's how ME is different in kind from all other BioWare games that purport to be RPGs.

[stoezgallamyn]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A computer roleplaying game must allow roleplaying.  DAO does.  Mass Effect did not.

That's strange, as I felt just the opposite. In fact, I've always felt that Mass Effect was the only game that ever really allowed me to roleplay.

Note that I say this as a LONG term Bioware fan. The Baldur's Gate saga is my favorite game series ever, and inspired me to pursue a gaming related career (you don't spend thousands of dollars on an education for something like that if it wasn't really important to you). Even so, though, the full-written dialogue options always made the "role-playing" aspect seem to be less of exactly that. When you see three options fully written out, it became too easy to read all three, determine which one fits your current playthrough ("There's the good response, there's the greedy response, and there's the evil response"), and take it because it will get you the best reward/follow the path you planned/kill specific NPC.

In Mass Effect, though, I felt much more inclined to actually go with my instinct. My first character ended up a healthy mix of Paragon and Renegade since I responded to the conversations how I felt and thought, then selecting the blurb that best matched my intentions. Never felt I could do that in games with specific text written out. For that matter, I even remember a moment (although I'm sparse on details) in Mass Effect where some NPC did something to ****** me off and I said aloud, "You son of a ****!" To my surprise, that option existed on the wheel, and I immediately selected it. THAT is roleplaying. Never had that experience in any other game, Bioware or otherwise. That the words Mark Meer/Jennifer Hale said didn't exactly match up with that didn't change the fact that their response was in keeping with mine and generated entirely from my investment into the character and the game world.

(As a side note, even considering that last example, video games
are never really roleplaying. EVER. Some games can approximate it
better than others, but they can't possibly contain the myriad options
that exist in actual tabletop roleplaying.)

Note that this is all opinion. I respect that you feel differently enough to disagree, but, I wanted to provide you with another viewpoint on the subject, and while I would not suggest that you should change your opinion based on my experiences, I hope you can at least intellectualize why someone would see it my way (as I do understand your viewpoint, however much I disagree with it).

[Sylvius the Mad]

stoezgallamyn wrote...

Even so, though, the full-written dialogue options always made the "role-playing" aspect seem to be less of exactly that. When you see three options fully written out, it became too easy to read all three, determine which one fits your current playthrough ("There's the good response, there's the greedy response, and there's the evil response"), and take it because it will get you the best reward/follow the path you planned/kill specific NPC.

Choosing the one that fit my current character (I play characters, not games) is exactly what I think is necessary.  ME's problem was that you couldn't tell for sure that any given option was going to be consistent with your past choices.  What you chose might cause Shepard to do or say something that contradicted a position he had previously held in the game (or would need to hold later).  And there's no way I'm willing to subject my PC to mandatory cognitive dissonance.

[Mordaedil]

The only logical thing is to agree with Sylvius.



If you felt Mass Effect was the only Bioware game you could RP in, well... I'm sorry to say, that wasn't roleplaying. That was choosing left or right side of a canal in a shooter.



When even Bioware no longer calls that series an RPG, you know it's a pretty lost battle.

[DaeJi]

I would like a link to a BioWare developer saying that the Mass Effect series are no long RPGs, as everything we know about the second game contradicts that sentiment.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

No it did not.  The options were not presented to the player.  The player was forced to guess at Shepard's actions rather than choosing them.

Once again, you are wrong. Not "wrong" as in I disagree with you, but "wrong" as in the facts of the matter support the opposite of what you are saying. Once again, the mold for BioWare games is that you, the player, are given several responces to different situations. It is not that  you are given several detailed, completely written out and clear statements with which to respond. Only that you are given choices. And those choices can be a clear or vague as BioWare wants them. So yes, even though some of the choices were unclear, Mass Effect fits snugglely into the BioWare RPG mold. If you dislike how it was done in that game, that's fine. No one game appeals to everyone.

[stoezgallamyn]

Mordaedil wrote...

The only logical thing is to agree with Sylvius.

If you felt Mass Effect was the only Bioware game you could RP in, well... I'm sorry to say, that wasn't roleplaying. That was choosing left or right side of a canal in a shooter.

When even Bioware no longer calls that series an RPG, you know it's a pretty lost battle.

Uh, no, it's not "the only logical thing". You only feel that way because you do agree with him. Anyone who desn't agree with him will feel the opposite way. That's the point of having an opinion.

That is, of course, what this all boils down to. Neither side can be empirically right or wrong, being that everything we're discussing is measued in qualitative factors. There's no units of measurement for "roleplaying", or "fun", or anything like that. It's not a quantitative idea, it's purely opinion.

Also, I said it was the closest I've come to being able to RP. NO video games are actually role playing, ever. EVER. Just as many option are presented to the player in any Bioware game, and they are just as pre-planned for a specific persona as in Mass Effect. Every evil PC in Baldur's Gate always had the same evil choices to make, just like the every Sith Lord in KotOR was the same, just like every closed fist follower in Jade Empire was the same. Dragon Age was a little bit better in those respects because they didn't have a strict alignment system, but, every single response fit a specific persona as defined by Bioware. ANY time the options are written in advance (as is a necessity in a video game), you are NOT playing your character. You have to approximate your character to what the game writer allows. Every other Bioware game was equally as much "choosing a canal" as Mass Effect.

As regards that infamous "RPG" quote, it's pretty obvious he's discussing video games, since he's mentioning other genres of video games in the same paragraph. When compared to other video games, it has less traits in common with games in the past that claim to be "RPGs". Stat-based combat is downplayed, it's real-time, etc. It's still more RPG than any JRPG, or any Elder Scrolls game, or any Zelda game (frequently, they are referred to as Action-RPGs) since your decisions do change the nature of the narrative. And that's really what roleplaying is--making decisions based on an assumed persona, which Mass Effect does, even if you don't like the implementation of it.

Edit: (Also, please don't take the "not an RPG" quote out of context. Everyone likes to focus on that one sentence, when the very next sentence says that it's a Shooter RPG. It fits into two video gaming categories, much like Jade Empire was an Action RPG.)

Modifié par stoezgallamyn, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DaeJi wrote...

Once again, you are wrong. Not "wrong" as in I disagree with you, but "wrong" as in the facts of the matter support the opposite of what you are saying. Once again, the mold for BioWare games is that you, the player, are given several responces to different situations.

I agree.  That's what BioWare generally does.

Mass Effect did not do that.  Mass Effect did not present the player with different responses.  Mass Effect presented the player with a UI element that produced seemingly random results.

If you play poker and are dealt a straight flush, you did not choose that hand.  That hand just happened.

[boomgosthedino]

I loved mass effect, thought it was really fun. Cant wait for the 2nd one

[DaeJi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mass Effect did not do that.  Mass Effect did not present the player with different responses.  Mass Effect presented the player with a UI element that produced seemingly random results.

Random results nothing. Play the game more than once, choose the same options. You will get the same dialoge each time. Since it's clear that you would rather be wrong than enlighten, I hope you are at least happy. I will be looking forward to Mass Effect 2. It's an RPG that is coming out in Januray which is sure to be a great RPG and win many RPG awards because it will be a great RPG that stands among great RPGS for being such an awesome RPG.



RPG.

[fairandbalancedfan]

To people arguing with Sylvius, he already had an argument concerning this back on the old ME forums spanning 40 odd pages.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DaeJi wrote...

Random results nothing. Play the game more than once, choose the same options. You will get the same dialoge each time.

Random = unpredictable.

From a roleplaying perspective (the PC lacks metagame knowledge even of the placement of the dialogue options on the wheel), the resutls are entirely unpredictable.  Therefore "seemingly random".

Since it's clear that you would rather be wrong than enlighten, I hope you are at least happy. I will be looking forward to Mass Effect 2. It's an RPG that is coming out in Januray which is sure to be a great RPG and win many RPG awards because it will be a great RPG that stands among great RPGS for being such an awesome RPG.

Even BioWare doesn't call ME2 an RPG.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Even BioWare doesn't call ME2 an RPG.

That's not true Sylvius, Bioware says it's a shooter with some RPG elements.