82 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

WillieStyle wrote...


Not to derail this thread but:
1) Time stop
2) Immunity to magic weapons
3) Wish
4) Time Stop.

Yes.. but in Baldur's Gate you didn't get access to such spells at lv 5..

[Auraad]

Don't 4get that they nerfed ALL THE cool spells of the mages, that gave them the huge adv. (CoC, etc)

So, the better mana regen (ALSO: it's NOT the mana regen alone, all the regen has been increased!) is a small tradeoff ... (still, imo the effect is that mages are not so powerful anymore)

[hexaligned]

The LAST thing this game needed were things to make it easier, Who's in charge of play testing this thing? You need to hire some real gamers Bioware. Or was it a marketing decision to dumb the game down this much? I'm not trying to flame, I'm just wondering exactly where it is you fell out of the habit of putting worthwhile challenges in your games. ME was the same way, completely pointless and thoughtlessly thrown in stat system, and combat you could sleep through, I don't keep up with the company maybe someone can fill me in, what changed in the company between KOTR and ME?

[Ibian]

Can we get official word on how the new regen rules work?

In my personal opinion, IF the high regen works below 20% mana and IF mana pots become nerfed in some way (probably with a higher timer or making their availability limited), then willpower could start to compete with magic.

Would be nice with some clarification.

Modifié par Ibian, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Or updated source scripts. That's much better!

[Jonfon_ire]

relhart wrote...

The LAST thing this game needed were things to make it easier, Who's in charge of play testing this thing? You need to hire some real gamers Bioware. Or was it a marketing decision to dumb the game down this much? I'm not trying to flame, I'm just wondering exactly where it is you fell out of the habit of putting worthwhile challenges in your games. ME was the same way, completely pointless and thoughtlessly thrown in stat system, and combat you could sleep through, I don't keep up with the company maybe someone can fill me in, what changed in the company between KOTR and ME?

KOTOR? Really? That's your example of a difficult game? I actually did sleepwalk my way through most of that (while my enemies force-choked theirs). I found ME much trickier personally. 

And that's the crux of my point really. In the words of a revered 80s sitcom "The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you may not be right for some"

DA to me seems perfectly pitched to me so far. Most fights are a challenge and bits like the end of Ostigar which I'd read previously in reviews were difficultly spikes were fine for me.

[Sibelius1]

Edit

Modifié par Sibelius1, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[Sibelius1]

Bibdy wrote...

The mana bonus appears to be very slight. Maybe an extra 1.0 mana/stamina regen per second while you're below 20% total mana/stam.

I think your ease of doing the encounter is more easily boiled down to the fact that you have experience with the game now, and its become a lot easier now that you're employing more sensible tactics than you did when you first met the thing.

They have also changed the scaling of various encounters in this patch, maybe the tower ogre battle was one of them?

[AshedMan]

I remember how difficult that first Ogre fight was. I probably had to reload 10 times before figuring out a good strategy to defeat him. Now I take on 2 or 3 ogres at a time with ease. I love this game.

[Ibian]

Sibelius1 wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

The mana bonus appears to be very slight. Maybe an extra 1.0 mana/stamina regen per second while you're below 20% total mana/stam.

I think your ease of doing the encounter is more easily boiled down to the fact that you have experience with the game now, and its become a lot easier now that you're employing more sensible tactics than you did when you first met the thing.

They have also changed the scaling of various encounters in this patch, maybe the tower ogre battle was one of them?

I considered this, but i checked the next battle (with the bandits), and i still got the same high regen when low.

[Staylost]

Skellimancer wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...



Fly of the handle? No, i just don't want gameplay aimed at 5 year olds.

Well then you'd better get started on that mod of yours then. I'm sure it'll be popular.

Chin up. You might beat easy mode one day.

That is out of line. Maybe add a smiley face next time.

[Skellimancer]

Staylost wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...



Fly of the handle? No, i just don't want gameplay aimed at 5 year olds.

Well then you'd better get started on that mod of yours then. I'm sure it'll be popular.

Chin up. You might beat easy mode one day.

That is out of line. Maybe add a smiley face next time.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 09 décembre 2009 - 06:14 .

[Sylixe]

WillieStyle wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

Sadly you would have to go back to the mid 90's till about early 2K's to get a game that requires actually dedication and skill in game to complete.  Games today have to cater to the masses so that they can maximise unit sales.  The days of games that were hard and really required time to complete are far passed and never to return.

This sort of "back-in-my-day-ism" is tiresome.  Which games from the 90s and early 2Ks were hard?
BG2 was much easier than Dragon Age.

That's blatantly false to the extreme.  There were MANY fights in BG that random die rolls to save versus death were needed as well as buffing each PC correctly.  In my first run through DAO  i wiped my party uhm..not once..not ONCE!!! on NIGHTMARE for pete sakes.  On Nightmare i should have been completely and totally scared off my rocker to even WANT to attempt that again but in fact in order to make the game interesting i had to keep it on nightmare.

Salves?  What are these for?  I mean they sell okay to vendors but were to believe these are needed to win encounters on the hardest setting?  No they aren't.  Do the items in game REALLY make that much of an impact on our character or do the attribute points and the talents we choose do that?  I mean there's a couple of really interesting items in the game but honestly i have done every hard encounter using just merchant bought junk and it's still just as easy.  So again i wonder where the gearing up in the game goes?  Does running out of Mana or Health mean much of anything in game?  Not really since pots are so numerous and easy to make.  Wouldn't matter anyway since you can toggle between 2 different ones and chain them down.

Lets move away from the challenge level of the combat encounters in game though.  How about the puzzles in game?  If you didn't buy the shale download there's exactly ONE puzzle in the game.  That's shameful IMO and totally out of character from Bioware.  Granted i'll give the bridge a 4 out of 10 for difficulty but there really could have been a lot more in game.  A few puzzles harkening back to maybe the original Myst style of puzzles would have been cool. 

Those are just a few things that should change as the difficulty of the game increases.  Now i know people will say that you can just mod that stuff in but than why have any difficulty levels in game at all at release?  The difficulty scale is supposed to be there to make the game longer and far more challenging to each player style.  Instead we got the same old MMO philosophy that everyone is entitled to everything without any work or time invested.  This of course leads to the common"I have a life BS"  Well i too have a life and a family and i cannot deicate large portions of my time to playing the game at once.  Does that mean i need to win the game in the first week i bought it?  How about the first month?   As much as length in game means something death should really mean more.  The penalty's for losing party fights is just a reload.  Something a little more tangible should be added to this as well.  I mean it is nightmare level and it should feel like a nightmare to play.

As for games in the past that were diffcult i can think of some right off the top of my head. 

Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind
Original Bards tale
Pool of Radiance
BG series
Total War series
Original Everquest
Civ games on hardest settings


It's sad that in order to sell the amount of units these company's need to be happy and keep their shaleholders happy they have to dumb games down so much.

[Bibdy]

Walking over a trap, which launches a disintegrate at a party member, insta-gibbing him due to a bad Save vs. Death doesn't make the encounter hard. It just generates frustration and an instantaneous reload.



There's certainly more than 1 puzzle in the game, too, but that's getting into spoiler territory. I'll try to be vague. Let's see, there's:



1) Using different forms to work through an entire labyrinth of levels

2) Finding notes about summoning creatures and following the ritual

3) Following a ritual involving a jug of water to open a secret chamber

4) The obligatory riddle section

5) Creating a pathway using different combinations of buttons

6) Defeating a boss encounter by killing minions and using objects to wound one side of the boss



Its not like there was a puzzle every 15 feet in other Bioware games. They're spread out. Some are mandatory to continue, some aren't. I thought the number and style of puzzles were very Bioware-like. Probably the major difference here is they're not all dialogue-based and they don't halt gameplay. The puzzles ARE the gameplay.

[Matthew Young CT]

you forgot the most important DA Puzzle Fact: there's no tower of hanoi puzzle.

[Sylixe]

Bibdy wrote...

Walking over a trap, which launches a disintegrate at a party member, insta-gibbing him due to a bad Save vs. Death doesn't make the encounter hard. It just generates frustration and an instantaneous reload.

There's certainly more than 1 puzzle in the game, too, but that's getting into spoiler territory. I'll try to be vague. Let's see, there's:

1) Using different forms to work through an entire labyrinth of levels
2) Finding notes about summoning creatures and following the ritual
3) Following a ritual involving a jug of water to open a secret chamber
4) The obligatory riddle section
5) Creating a pathway using different combinations of buttons
6) Defeating a boss encounter by killing minions and using objects to wound one side of the boss

Its not like there was a puzzle every 15 feet in other Bioware games. They're spread out. Some are mandatory to continue, some aren't. I thought the number and style of puzzles were very Bioware-like. Probably the major difference here is they're not all dialogue-based and they don't halt gameplay. The puzzles ARE the gameplay.

1. That's not a puzzle.  If you wander around enough you get it done.
2. That doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
3. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter Egg
4. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
5. A REAL PUZZLE!  Will impede you from finishing the game.
6. Okay i forgot that one but than again it was pretty easy to figure out.

[Solica]

I am disturbed by this, I must admit. I haven't applied 1.02 yet. But I felt sad regret about how much easier the game became after 1.01. Yes, I know, I could up the difficulty, I'm still only at normal. But I dunno, it's the feeling. The shivers, knowing that a gruelingly difficult battle could await me behind the next turn. That feeling is gone. Call me masochist or whatever, but that was precious to me. The game feels, like 'untrue', don't know what to call it, but something's gone.

I don't want to complain. The game is still great, but I do wish they would have left it as it was. And 1.02 sounds like it will disturb me even more.

[Dieover]

@OP: Here are some of the answer to your questions base on the 1.02 patch notes:

1. During combat, mana or stamina reserves now correctly regenerate more quickly when reserves are low. This allows players to occasionally use an talent or spell in the later stages of lengthy fights.

 most importantly

2. Certain battles were not scaling properly, resulting in excessively difficult fights. They now scale as intended.

3. I completely agree with Skellimancer (game made easier so people whine less but its pretty ironic after encounter this thread) or Bibdy ways - you know the game allot better via experiences.

but i like Skellimancer quote more hehehe

Modifié par Dieover, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:19 .

[Bibdy]

Sylixe wrote...

1. That's not a puzzle.  If you wander around enough you get it done.
2. That doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
3. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter Egg
4. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
5. A REAL PUZZLE!  Will impede you from finishing the game.
6. Okay i forgot that one but than again it was pretty easy to figure out.

So, it only counts it if impedes you? How many of BG1/2's puzzles impeded you? The vast majority of the puzzle content in those games were side-quests and unnecessary to the main plot. I can't even think of a puzzle in BG2 that stopped me progressing
completely if I didn't finish it. The obligatory riddle section on the
way out of the Asylum could be completed regardless of getting the
questions wrong. Unless picking up a couple of Minotaur horns and plopping them on the statue counts.

This game obviously isn't meant to be puzzle-tastic like an old school Lucas Arts adventure game such as Day of the Tentacle. You could even use the rationalisation of 1. on 5., you'll beat the puzzle if you fiddle with it enough. Surely that can't be a puzzle!

Modifié par Bibdy, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[Sylixe]

Bibdy wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

1. That's not a puzzle.  If you wander around enough you get it done.
2. That doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
3. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter Egg
4. Doesn't impede you from finishing the game. IE Easter egg
5. A REAL PUZZLE!  Will impede you from finishing the game.
6. Okay i forgot that one but than again it was pretty easy to figure out.

So, it only counts it if impedes you? How many of BG1/2's puzzles impeded you? The vast majority of the puzzle content in those games were side-quests and unnecessary to the main plot. I can't even think of a puzzle in BG2 that stopped me progressing
completely if I didn't finish it. The obligatory riddle section on the
way out of the Asylum could be completed regardless of getting the
questions wrong. Unless picking up a couple of Minotaur horns and plopping them on the statue counts.

This game obviously isn't meant to be puzzle-tastic like an old school Lucas Arts adventure game such as Day of the Tentacle. You could even use the rationalisation of 1. on 5., you'll beat the puzzle if you fiddle with it enough. Surely that can't be a puzzle!

But there could be if the game scaled in Nightmare mode.  That is of course the point of this discussion.  Obviously on the easier modes impeding the game would be a bad thing but on an extreme mode there's no reason they couldn't have things like that.  It's not like games in the past haven't had more content available on the harder modes. 

[Bibdy]

This isn't really a good game model to add content for harder settings. Puzzles are pretty hit and miss. They're either a giant blocker, where you can only progress if you get it right - that tends to be very frustrating to a lot of people if they don't 'get it' right away, like 5, above. Or, they don't completely block you, but penalise you a little for not getting it right, like failing a riddle and getting attacked by something, maybe earning less total XP or an item, but still being able to move on with the game.



Puzzles, by and large, are a pain in the ass to make. Restricting them to a only certain difficulty settings is a big waste of development time.

[Sylixe]

Bibdy wrote...

This isn't really a good game model to add content for harder settings. Puzzles are pretty hit and miss. They're either a giant blocker, where you can only progress if you get it right - that tends to be very frustrating to a lot of people if they don't 'get it' right away, like 5, above. Or, they don't completely block you, but penalise you a little for not getting it right, like failing a riddle and getting attacked by something, maybe earning less total XP or an item, but still being able to move on with the game.

Puzzles, by and large, are a pain in the ass to make. Restricting them to a only certain difficulty settings is a big waste of development time.

You have to think though that after being in development for 5 years what were they doing to make nightmare feel like nightmare?  The point of nightmare though IS to frustrate a player.  Certainly not everyone likes to be frustrated and looking at todays gaming audience it seems to be the majority.   However playing in nightmare should feel like a nightmare and really tax your abilities or ability to think on the fly and approach something from a different angle. 

I just want to say this is the only part of the game i am disappointed with.  I love everything else about this game otherwise.  I just get sad everytime i see something else get dumbed down in order to appease the "Instant Gratification" generation of players.  They do spend more though so it's gonna be that way regardless.

Modifié par Sylixe, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:44 .

[WillieStyle]

In my first run through DAO i wiped my party uhm..not once..not ONCE!!! on NIGHTMARE for pete sakes.

I'd just like to point out that this is obviously a lie.

[Bibdy]

This is why puzzles are best left to side-quests, because those tend to reward excellent items that you won't find through the normal path. Work out the puzzle, and take out the big, bad monster behind the puzzle door? Good job! Get an awesome item and a buttload of gold. Can't figure out the puzzle? Screw it and continue on with the game minus aforementioned awesome item and buttload of gold.

Modifié par Bibdy, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[WillieStyle]

I think you are conflating "tedious" and "challenging".



A fight where you have to react on the fly to a boss's actions and pick the proper counter based on a changing combat environment is hard.



A fight where you have to cast protection from abjuration before hand so that the lich won't insta-kill you with "imprisonment" isn't hard. In BG2 the save-or-die spells all had specific counters. These counters could be applied prior to engaging the enemy and didn't require any quick-thinking on your part.

Facing mind flayers: cast chaotic commands.

Facing a lich: spell immunity abjuration

Facing vampires: negative plane protection.

etc.



Non of that is hard. Figuring out the proper spell to cast is easy. Casting the proper spell prior to combat is easy. Having to do it before every other fight is just tedious.



Also, penalties to party member death dont' make the game hard either. Having to lug a party member to a temple and pay gold isn't hard. There's no challenge in getting to the temple. No chance you'll fail to arrive unless you overcome certain challenges. Upon arriving at the temple, there's no chance that you'll fail to get a res as long as you spend some gold. They could just as easily forced your screen to go black for 10 mins and removed X gold from your inventory each time a party member died. That's not a sign of a challenging game. It's just poor game design.