1114 réponses à ce sujet

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Balance5050 just link to the whole post in the sig below next time, also has rebar reaper cable comparison. Interesting how similar things are seeing as the ending scene is all pre-rendered and high quality.

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

Reused models, since there's one destroyed eye model that moves in game, and it's TIM's. Using renegade eyes would remove the punch for a renegade Shep. Alternatively, the REAPER TECH has REAPER SIDE EFFECTS. PANIC. Clearly it still works, since the reapers leave and you win.

Digging through game files can yield a lot of nonsense.


Anderson is shown as the 'renegade' choice because destroy is more pragmatic and ruthless, and sacrifices the geth, EDI, the relays and the Citadel instead of Shepard.

You trust the Catalyst because the game punishes you if you don't, and Shepard does, just as you do with the 'destroy' ending. And the game's ending shows that in all cases, it was well placed trust.

Since people in the wards lived through destroy, I'm not quite sure why Shepard couldn't.

In shepards dreams we get a clear warning not to trust him when we see shepard and the boy burning. If you pick control or synthesis you are in fact trusting him and you end up burning!

[Hadeedak]

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

That's another reason for some people to believe Indoctrination Theory is possible, if you consider the Catalyst some kind of reaper trap within your mind, he puts a very positive spin on both Synthesis and Control, while making Destroy seem like a very bad choice. "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth [and all the technologies you relay upon (only said with special circumstance and not during the good destroy choice)], even YOU are partly synthetic." Yet somehow, the good destroy ending is the only way Shepard can be seen taking a gasp of breath.

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

I know that this has been posted before but here you go...




Something is not right here!...A clue?...one of many!

[Hadeedak]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

That's another reason for some people to believe Indoctrination Theory is possible, if you consider the Catalyst some kind of reaper trap within your mind, he puts a very positive spin on both Synthesis and Control, while making Destroy seem like a very bad choice. "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth [and all the technologies you relay upon (only said with special circumstance and not during the good destroy choice)], even YOU are partly synthetic." Yet somehow, the good destroy ending is the only way Shepard can be seen taking a gasp of breath.

It's also the only one where he flat out doesn't tell you "Shepard will die" in this. If he was trying to 'fool' you, he could always lie.

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

That's another reason for some people to believe Indoctrination Theory is possible, if you consider the Catalyst some kind of reaper trap within your mind, he puts a very positive spin on both Synthesis and Control, while making Destroy seem like a very bad choice. "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth [and all the technologies you relay upon (only said with special circumstance and not during the good destroy choice)], even YOU are partly synthetic." Yet somehow, the good destroy ending is the only way Shepard can be seen taking a gasp of breath.

It's also the only one where he flat out doesn't tell you "Shepard will die" in this. If he was trying to 'fool' you, he could always lie.

Also here is a long video explaning it all...  

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Hadeedak wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

That's another reason for some people to believe Indoctrination Theory is possible, if you consider the Catalyst some kind of reaper trap within your mind, he puts a very positive spin on both Synthesis and Control, while making Destroy seem like a very bad choice. "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth [and all the technologies you relay upon (only said with special circumstance and not during the good destroy choice)], even YOU are partly synthetic." Yet somehow, the good destroy ending is the only way Shepard can be seen taking a gasp of breath.

It's also the only one where he flat out doesn't tell you "Shepard will die" in this. If he was trying to 'fool' you, he could always lie.

True. And very odd. Why would he allude to death with "Even YOU are partly synthetic," instead of outright saying it like in the others, "You will lose everything you are. You will die." Hmm. Speculations.

[KevShep]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

That's another reason for some people to believe Indoctrination Theory is possible, if you consider the Catalyst some kind of reaper trap within your mind, he puts a very positive spin on both Synthesis and Control, while making Destroy seem like a very bad choice. "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth [and all the technologies you relay upon (only said with special circumstance and not during the good destroy choice)], even YOU are partly synthetic." Yet somehow, the good destroy ending is the only way Shepard can be seen taking a gasp of breath.

It's also the only one where he flat out doesn't tell you "Shepard will die" in this. If he was trying to 'fool' you, he could always lie.

True. And very odd. Why would he allude to death with "Even YOU are partly synthetic," instead of outright saying it like in the others, "You will lose everything you are. You will die." Hmm. Speculations.

For you too... This says how they try to trick you!.......  

[Hadeedak]

See, the thing about arguing indoctrination theory is that everything can be taken as proof for it, even proof that isn't there. And if it's against it, it can be dismissed (oh, the end message and stargazer scene doesn't REALLY mean Shepard won). Arguments from lack of clarity are always problematic.

I prefer to argue off what the game presents as fact until something else comes up.

In game, there's no wrong answer or test to fail, expect if you refuse to play (or die to TIM/ Marauder Shields and the huskateers). In all three endings, you win. Each ending has its own benefits and consequences, even if they're not explained in detail (or at all, damn you synthesis). But you always are informed by the game itself that Shepard ended the threat of the reapers, however you chose to do it.

If you want to interpret the game beyond the obvious, that's all well and good, but it's hard to base a discussion off of.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 11 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[Hadeedak]

Best way to discuss endings honestly.

Quick, while you're still drunk... What do you think synthesis means?

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

See, the thing about arguing indoctrination theory is that everything can be taken as proof for it, even proof that isn't there. And if it's against it, it can be dismissed (oh, the end message and stargazer scene doesn't REALLY mean Shepard won). Arguments from lack of clarity are always problematic.

I prefer to argue off what the game presents as fact until something else comes up.

In game, there's no wrong answer or test to fail, expect if you refuse to play (or die to TIM/ Marauder Shields and the huskateers). In all three endings, you win. Each ending has its own benefits and consequences, even if they're not explained in detail (or at all, damn you synthesis). But you always are informed by the game itself that Shepard ended the threat of the reapers, however you chose to do it.

If you want to interpret the game beyond the obvious, that's all well and good, but it's hard to base a discussion off of.

Why are your eyes look JUST like the illusive mans if you pick control or synthesis? It only happends for about a second as if the game is trying to hint something to you! If you pick synthesis your eyes SHOULD turn green but instead your eyes turn blue with three blue orbs like TIMs! This is not how TIM got his eyes so why does shepards eyes look the EXACT same way? Did TIM use the crucible before?

[TSA_383]

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

You should totally read this book, it's a lovely tale about some farm animals:
http://www.amazon.co...36722911&sr=8-1

And nothing else.
It even says so!

[Hadeedak]

Well...

Wait, didn't I just cover this?

Like... On the last page. For the love of god...

Anyway. In both scenes, Shepard's eyes move, which means they need a working model for 'ruined/dissolving' eyes that works with every facemorph in game. These are 'renegade Shepard eyes', 'TIM eyes', and "Embrace eternity eyes'. Using renegade Shepard eyes would remove the punch of the scene of your Shepard being ripped apart for a renegade. Using embrace eternity eyes would result in serious lols. So, TIM eyes or create a new model. It may be meant to represent the underpinning of Shepard's ocular implants, or it could be easy programming. Alternatively, it could also be that USING THE GIANT REAPER ARTIFACT has reapery effects. So?

Obviously, it works. Shepard wins. Threat over.

[Hadeedak]

TSA_383 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

You should totally read this book, it's a lovely tale about some farm animals:
http://www.amazon.co...36722911&sr=8-1

And nothing else.
It even says so!

Yeah, I read that in middle school. I might accept that as a viable comparison if there was any indication the rest of the Mass Effect series was trying to say something about our perceptions of reality. Do you have a point, or are you just being patronizing? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, dude.

[TSA_383]

Hadeedak wrote...

Well...

Wait, didn't I just cover this?

Like... On the last page. For the love of god...

Anyway. In both scenes, Shepard's eyes move, which means they need a working model for 'ruined/dissolving' eyes that works with every facemorph in game. These are 'renegade Shepard eyes', 'TIM eyes', and "Embrace eternity eyes'. Using renegade Shepard eyes would remove the punch of the scene of your Shepard being ripped apart for a renegade. Using embrace eternity eyes would result in serious lols. So, TIM eyes or create a new model. It may be meant to represent the underpinning of Shepard's ocular implants, or it could be easy programming. Alternatively, it could also be that USING THE GIANT REAPER ARTIFACT has reapery effects. So?

Obviously, it works. Shepard wins. Threat over.

So:
-Why do control and synthesis have exactly the same effect (in terms of becoming reaperified).
-Why does the catalyst try to steer you away from Destroy?
-Why is the model for the control console referred to as the bad ending in the game files?
-How does shepard survive and wake up on earth if the last scene is real?
-Why do you trust the catalyst at face value?
-How does shepard survive and wake up on earth if the last scene is real?
-How do YOU explain all the similarities between the dream sequences and the end sequence (in music, foliage, characters, audio effects, visual effects, ambient soundtrack etc).
-How does shepard survive and wake up on earth if the last scene is real?
/all the other questions I asked before and am too lazy/tired to repeat.

Hadeedak wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

That's a nice theory.

In practice, control or synthesis kill Shepard, too.

Buuuuuut in both, the game tells you they're a heroic sacrifice that saves the galaxy.

You should totally read this book, it's a lovely tale about some farm animals:
http://www.amazon.co...36722911&sr=8-1

And nothing else.
It even says so!

Yeah,
I read that in middle school. I might accept that as a viable
comparison if there was any indication the rest of the Mass Effect
series was trying to say something about our perceptions of reality. Do
you have a point, or are you just being patronizing? Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar, dude.

And sometimes it isn't.
This isn't middle school, nobody's going to hold your hand and explain to you where the line should be drawn and what every little thing means, disregarding the alternatives. It's open for interpretation, exactly as the writers wanted it to be. It was never supposed to be a "here's your ending, take it or leave it" sort of thing. You were meant to think.

And frankly, games which require some thought to get the best ending beat chest-high wall simulators any day.

Modifié par TSA_383, 11 mai 2012 - 08:08 .

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

Well...

Wait, didn't I just cover this?

Like... On the last page. For the love of god...

Anyway. In both scenes, Shepard's eyes move, which means they need a working model for 'ruined/dissolving' eyes that works with every facemorph in game. These are 'renegade Shepard eyes', 'TIM eyes', and "Embrace eternity eyes'. Using renegade Shepard eyes would remove the punch of the scene of your Shepard being ripped apart for a renegade. Using embrace eternity eyes would result in serious lols. So, TIM eyes or create a new model. It may be meant to represent the underpinning of Shepard's ocular implants, or it could be easy programming. Alternatively, it could also be that USING THE GIANT REAPER ARTIFACT has reapery effects. So?

Obviously, it works. Shepard wins. Threat over.

WOW no offence but do you really believe that over what is proposed by the I.T.?  Your answer is worse then the I.T. (not that the I.T. is bad, personally I think its genius)  here is a little pic...

[Hadeedak]

-How do control and synthesis have the same effect?
-It may refer to an earlier plan, its relation to TIM, or just be a convenient handle.
-Shepard may or may not be on earth. And if the Crucible is built well enough (you knew having that volus fighter squadron would help) it may only target reaper built synthetics.
- Because if you don't trust the catalyst at face value, you get a critical mission failure.
-Or it could be some other n7 altogether. Maybe the easter egg is just picking on you.
-That's how the game chooses to render surreal situations. If you've ever experienced serious pain or injury while you have to keep moving... It's a rather unique high, and the game does a fabulous job of rendering it.
-Or it could just be the Citadel junk, and Shepard is in a wrecked docking bay.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 11 mai 2012 - 08:10 .

[Hadeedak]

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Well...

Wait, didn't I just cover this?

Like... On the last page. For the love of god...

Anyway. In both scenes, Shepard's eyes move, which means they need a working model for 'ruined/dissolving' eyes that works with every facemorph in game. These are 'renegade Shepard eyes', 'TIM eyes', and "Embrace eternity eyes'. Using renegade Shepard eyes would remove the punch of the scene of your Shepard being ripped apart for a renegade. Using embrace eternity eyes would result in serious lols. So, TIM eyes or create a new model. It may be meant to represent the underpinning of Shepard's ocular implants, or it could be easy programming. Alternatively, it could also be that USING THE GIANT REAPER ARTIFACT has reapery effects. So?

Obviously, it works. Shepard wins. Threat over.

WOW no offence but do you really believe that over what is proposed by the I.T.?  Your answer is worse then the I.T. (not that the I.T. is bad, personally I think its genius)  here is a little pic...

Jee, that picture's never been posted before. So why is my explanation bad?

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

-How do control and synthesis have the same effect?
-It may refer to an earlier plan, its relation to TIM, or just be a convenient handle.
-Shepard may or may not be on earth. And if the Crucible is built well enough (you knew having that volus fighter squadron would help) it may only target reaper built synthetics.
- Because if you don't trust the catalyst at face value, you get a critical mission failure.
-Or it could be some other n7 altogether. Maybe the easter egg is just picking on you.
-That's how the game chooses to render surreal situations. If you've ever experienced serious pain or injury while you have to keep moving... It's a rather unique high, and the game does a fabulous job of rendering it.
-Or it could just be the Citadel junk, and Shepard is in a wrecked docking bay.

you didnt watch the video did you? It explains how the reapers try to trick you and this is why Bioware is saying its art because its actually genius!

[TSA_383]

Hadeedak wrote...

-How do control and synthesis have the same effect?
-It may refer to an earlier plan, its relation to TIM, or just be a convenient handle.
-Shepard may or may not be on earth. And if the Crucible is built well enough (you knew having that volus fighter squadron would help) it may only target reaper built synthetics.
- Because if you don't trust the catalyst at face value, you get a critical mission failure.
-Or it could be some other n7 altogether. Maybe the easter egg is just picking on you.
-That's how the game chooses to render surreal situations. If you've ever experienced serious pain or injury while you have to keep moving... It's a rather unique high, and the game does a fabulous job of rendering it.
-Or it could just be the Citadel junk, and Shepard is in a wrecked docking bay.

The phrase "clutching at straws" comes to mind.

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Well...

Wait, didn't I just cover this?

Like... On the last page. For the love of god...

Anyway. In both scenes, Shepard's eyes move, which means they need a working model for 'ruined/dissolving' eyes that works with every facemorph in game. These are 'renegade Shepard eyes', 'TIM eyes', and "Embrace eternity eyes'. Using renegade Shepard eyes would remove the punch of the scene of your Shepard being ripped apart for a renegade. Using embrace eternity eyes would result in serious lols. So, TIM eyes or create a new model. It may be meant to represent the underpinning of Shepard's ocular implants, or it could be easy programming. Alternatively, it could also be that USING THE GIANT REAPER ARTIFACT has reapery effects. So?

Obviously, it works. Shepard wins. Threat over.

WOW no offence but do you really believe that over what is proposed by the I.T.?  Your answer is worse then the I.T. (not that the I.T. is bad, personally I think its genius)  here is a little pic...

Jee, that picture's never been posted before. So why is my explanation bad?

 because its not based on any lore or facts.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Hadeedak wrote...

-How do control and synthesis have the same effect?

-It may refer to an earlier plan, its relation to TIM, or just be a convenient handle.

-Shepard may or may not be on earth. And if the Crucible is built well enough (you knew having that volus fighter squadron would help) it may only target reaper bult synthetics.

- Because if you don't trust the catalyst at face value, you get a critical mission failure.

-Or it could be some other n7 altogether. Maybe the easter egg is just picking on you.

-That's how the game chooses to render surreal situations. If you've ever experienced serious pain or injury while you have to keep moving... It's a rather unique high, and the game does a fabulous job of rendering it.

-Or it could just be the Citadel junk, and Shepard is in a wrecked docking bay.

You seem to be leaping more than us Indoctrination Theorists are accused of (and sometimes rightfully so). There's less than a 1% chance for the breath scene to have some other random N7 in it, the fact that there's a male and female version of it should be enough evidence of that. If it's not enough you can actually match the scars in Shepard's armor to the scars in the armor in the Breath scene.

I think TSA was trying to refer to the oily shadows in the screen as Illusive Man assumes control of you, you see them in Nightmares 2 and 3, and also the whispers you here in the background during the exchance, you also hear these whispers in Nightmares 2 and 3.

"May" "may not" "Could be" You are closer to a theorist than I think you realize

To clarify the Shepard/Illusive Man eye images. At first I wrote that off as Shepard's cybernetic eyes coming through. But then someone pointed out that Shepard's are in a different formation. While the Illusive Man has 3 dots ina triangular pattern pointing up, Shepard's are 3 dots in a triangular patter point Down. Even if Bioware had to use reause the "Renegade eyes" asset for that they could have simply changed the color to blue/green I think we can all agree they  can change colors in cutscenes easily (that was a quip about the endings, no offense Bioware love you guys.)

[Hadeedak]

I did. I've seen the video a couple dozen times by now, and most of the others on indoctrination theory. Clutching at straws also describes "HEY. HEY GUYS. The end of the game didn't really happen! It's all a dream!"

As stands, in the game right now, you cannot 'fail' the test, because it doesn't exist. All 3 endings are right and my Shepard's heroic sacrifice for control is as valid and ends the reaper threat as effectively as your Shepard's pragmatic, determined destroy. Speculation aside, that is how Mass Effect 3 presents the endings. It may change with the extended cut, but since they're expanding on the endings instead of changing them, I wouldn't bank on it.