[quote]Geneaux486 wrote...
See? How hard was that. Now for my response:
[quote] -Shepard has never been faced with indoctrination when HE HAS been around reaper tech more then anyone...it would be stupid not to put it in the series some where right?[/quote]
As early as the first game we come to understand that Indoctrination requires long, sustained contact with Reaper technology and even then it still takes a certain period of time. The reality is Shepard hasn't spent all that much time around Reaper tech anyway, realtively speaking, and even less
extended time around Reaper tech. Look at the Cerberus scientists that investigated the derelict Reaper: They were able to pressurize the thing, set up platforms that spanned the length of it (no swift task considering how many platforms in that damn thing have the Cerberus logo on them), and begin minor deconstructions before Indoctrination really started to take hold. Shepard was inside of that thing for a fraction of the time that they were, so it makes sense that he wouldn't start to experience any effects. The rest of Shepard's contact with volatile Reaper tech is broken up into brief encounters, and by Mass Effect 3, there are several characters, Anderson included, who have spent longer time near Reapers than Shepard, who spends a vast majority of the game avoiding direct conflicts with the Reapers, while he builds his alliance, and not shown any visible signs of indoctrination.
[quote]-The End is so plot hole filled that we can only "speculate why Bioware did this. They wanted a ending that was the best of all time and would never be forgotten. (said by Casey Hudson). The ending was NOT the greatest of all time! Is there more to it? looks that way.[/quote]
This is a matter of opinion, not an objective truth. The so-called "plotholes" in the ending are, for the most part, merely unanswered questions, not un
answerable questions, and therein lies the key difference.
[quote] - The ending was so unsatisfying that even Bioware would have to addmitted it. Thing is, they dont, infact they support it so much that they are alienating there fanbase....I wonder why?[/quote]
Which would be a stupid move on their part if IT is actually true, because people would be even more angry that a) they were sold an incomplete game and
that Bioware lied to them about it. There's just no upside to that sort of storytelling.
[quote]-In our last dream we see shepard and the kid hugging and then burning. Its a clear warning ( enhanced by the scary music at that scene). Its his mind warning him NOT to trust the kid...But why, the kid is dead right? Later we see the catalsyt and HOLY CRAP...its that same kid![/quote]
Again, this is your subjective interpretation of the purpose of that dream, not factual. The hugging, the burning, all vague hints of approaching danger, but nothing so specific as "The Reaper boss is going to take the form of this kid and mess with your upstairs junk". That wouldn't even make sense anyway, because Shepard, as far as we know, is not psychic and cannot predict the future.
[quote]Now, indoctrination can ONLY happen by the victim "giving into" the reapers suggestions. How does a reaper do that? By not letting you know that there "ideas" are there's and tricking you into thinking that the "choice" you made is your own when its not! Once this happends they now can control you. Its also known as the point of no return![/quote]
This is not stated in the game. The Salarian STG boys and the Cerberus scientists simply had their minds altered, as did everyone else who was indoctrinated. Accepting Reaper logic comes after indoctrination has taken hold, as is seen with Benezia and Shiala. It's a symptom, not the cause.
[quote] - When you wake up after the beam everything gets really weird. Behind the mako you see what looks like rocks (they WERE rocks before the hit) but a closer look and we see dead bodies everywhere that are NOT part of the team that went with you.[/quote]
I'm of the opinion that things look wierd simply because Shepard is still reeling from the trauma of the attack his just sustained. As time passes, things do gradually become more coherenent, which I see as Shepard recovering.
[quote] - Anderson SAYS he comes up behind you( but some how hes ahead of you
) but harbinger does not see him when Harby flys off if he came up behind him. Why didnt harby shoot him! Why didnt anderson stop the "full retreat" command?[/quote]
Harbinger flew away before Shepard or anyone else got back up, so he wouldn't have seen either of them heading for the beam. As for why Anderson was in a different location from Shepard on board the Citadel, simply look at the corpses that are in that hallway. They're all over the place. That beam was large and was used for transporting large amounts of living specimens and corpses, as was stated earlier in the game, therefore it stands to reason that the area of impact, where the teleporter places you, would also cover a large area.
[quote]-We hear the dream music everytime we see the kid even at the every end. This is a clue. He is hillucinating.[/quote]
A subjective interpretation of the presence of this music. I feel it's first appearance, when the child dies, tells us the reason why this music is used. It's associated with what Shepard is going through in coming to terms with the fact that he can't save everyone, that he is going to have to watch people die no matter what. This is expanded upon in conversations he has with other characters.
[quote]- Also in the Leaked script we see that indoctrination IS part of ME3 and its mentions that they were trying to find a way to use an indoctrinated shepard at the end WHILE still giving the player some dialogue control.[/quote]
What you posted specifically says that they were going to have Shepard lose control. It also says that the sequence was dropped.
[quote]They mention that they had to drop a game machanic (or scenario) in were shepard loses full control because it did not go well with the dialogue choices.[/quote]
The gameplay mechanic of losing control didn't go with the game mechanic of dialogue choices, that's what it said.
[quote]- speaking on out of game info there is also a file in the pc ME3 that states that the ending game foliage plants are titled "Dream Foliage". This has been confermed by many pc people.[/quote]
Interesting. Could I see a source on that please?
[quote]-The catalyst voice...Its made up by male and female shepard's voices. There is a reason for this. (Assumption) I think that Shepard is the catalyst and a clue to this is the voices in the catalyst. The reapers needed a indoctrinated subject to activated the crucible...remember that we still dont know what the crucible does (more on that later).[/quote]
If it was meant to be a clue to something as specific as Shepard being the "catalyst", then why include both gender rolls? Why throw a voice of a character that doesn't exist into the mix.
[quote]-During the last to minutes of the game everyone have a dream like eco to there voice like you hear in your dreams.[/quote]
There is a break in this echo between the Illusive Man's death and the Catalyst's appearance. Easier to believe that it's somehow caused by their presence than by a condition Shepard is suffering from.
[quote]- During your dreams we dont think anything of them at the time. but the way the reapers get to you (indoctrination) is psyhologically! Its clear that the dreams are having a pyshologically effect on him...seeing a connection? Its braking down his mental heath making indoctrination possible.[/quote]
But indoctrination doesn't require a breakdown of mental health to be possible. As I said before, such things are a symptom, not a cause, so if what you're saying about the dreams is true, then Shepard would have had to already be indoctrination, which I do not think is the case. Indoctrination projects unidentifiable (at least to Rana Thanoptis) waves that forcibly alter your thought processes.
[quote]- TIM /Anderson fight...This is also a pyshological attempt by the reapers. The two represent shepards two sides of his will. For indoctrination to work they have to break you. His two sides of him DIE! He is now ready for the final step in indoctrination...giving in or accepting it![/quote]
You keep saying that Indoctrination requires the victim to be weakened before it can take hold, but this in and of itself is not factual. The only character we see capable of resisting Indoctrination in any real capacity is Benezia, and she's an asari matriarch, with mental capabilities far beyond Shepard's, and even she can only resist it for a fleeting moment. The TIM/Anderson fight happened because the Illusive Man was actually there, as was Anderson, and he was the final obstacle Shepard needed to overcome before he could use the Crucible the way it was meant to be used.
[quote]- also in dreams he sees Oily Shadows...they also are a referance to ME1/2/3 of reaper indoctrination! Its a clue![/quote]
It being a clue is a subjective interpretation. Based on what else we know about the nature of Shepard's dreams, that the whispers of his fallen comrades can constantly be heard, it's more likely that the shadows simply represent the people that Shepard has not, and cannot save.
[quote]- TIM"s new powers. TIM did not make a new better way of indoctrination powers then the reapers could. There is somthing wrong here![/quote]
Not factual. We know from the mission on Sanctuary that indoctrination was being studied, and we find out that TIM had unlocked its secrets, so it's not any kind of a stretch that the next time you see him, he has limited control over two people directly in his vicinity. And again, what TIM does is not better than what the Reapers do. The Reapers can transform their thralls into sleeper agents that integrate back into society to later betray their allies. The Illusive Man can freeze people up and make them move their arms a little, and even those motions aren't fluid enough to suggest total control.
[quote]- In the scene where you see the relays blowing up in the galaxy, notice anything? Thats NOT where earth is! that is where Shepard is said to have been indoctrinated(arrival DLC). There is no way, even after lots of developers have seen that scene, someone WOULD have said "hey are we stupid? that is not were earth is"! This is another clue![/quote]
What baffles me about this point you keep making is that the Crucible energy originates from a point that is clearly
not the same place where the Arrival DLC takes place. I mean it's plain as day even in the picture you posted that those are two different spots. Actually, the point that the blasts originates from is far closer to the Local Cluster on the galaxy map than it is to the Arrival DLC cluster. Close enough that it can be written off as a minor inconsistency between the markings placed on the galaxy map and the actual view of the galaxy.
[quote]The WHOLE serise is about killing the reapers... and in a span of 10 minutes you ARE willing to give all that up to TRUST in the kid[/quote]
But it has nothing to do with trusting the Catalyst. If you look at it from the perspective that the ending is really happening, then the Catalyst has nothing to do with the Crucible beyond telling you how it functions. Organics adapted the original design to draw power from the Citadel, organics built it, and organics plugged it in. You don't have to trust or agree with anything the Catalyst says when picking any of the choices. There's an equally large leap of faith required for all three choices, and the bottom line there is that you still have to activate the Crucible no matter what. The series has been about fighting the Reapers, yes, and at the end you find out that by destroying them you'll also be committing genocide against your synthetic allies, so there are two other options. It's up to each player to do what they think is best, but there isn't a wrong choice. Anyone who plays Mass Effect knows that the game continually introduces new information that alters Shepard's goals. From the true origins of the Mass Relays and Citadel to the presence of the Human-reaper, Shepard has constantly had to roll with the punches and alter his plans to incorporate new information, and in this case that new information is that there are ways to stop the Reapers without sacrificing your allies.
[quote]and you pick control/synthesis when YOU KNOW D*MN WELL that the two people(TIM and Saren) that wanted those things WERE doing what the reapers wanted all along. Control and synthesis is what the reapers want![/quote]
I see this point brought up a lot, and it's incorrect for a few reasons. First we'll look at Saren. His vision was that all living things in the galaxy be techno-organic hybrids like him. You claim this means that the Reapers want such a thing to come to pass. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the Reapers have no intention of doing this if Saren cooperates, it's either a lie Soveriegn told him or an illusion he came up with himself, but the Reapers have neither the intent nor the means to actually carry it out. Now I'll go into why synthesis is not something the Reapers would want. The Reapers view themselves as the pinnacle of evolution, the highest form of existence there is. To "ascend" species to this form requires mutilation, pain, and death on a galactic scale to turn people into twisted abominations so the Reapers can bolster their ranks. Synthesis, as the Crucible achieves it, completely invalidates all of this. Everything the Reapers have done, every member of their own ranks that they've lost, every race they've melted down and processed, all completely invalidated by their own logic by synthesis. It was an option that the Catalyst had never known of before, nor had the Reapers known of it. So no, you are not doing the Reapers bidding by choosing synthesis.
The Illusive Man and his vision of control is a much simpler matter. He believed the Crucible had the potential to control the Reapers after studying its blueprints, and he was right. However, he was also indoctrinated by the massive amounts of Reaper tech he was pouring into his body, so there was no way he could have controlled what already controlled him. The reason the Illusive Man was wrong was because he thought exploiting Reaper tech was the way to attain control, when ironically it's what made control impossible for him. For Shepard, who is not indoctrinated, control via the Crucible is possible, hence why it is a valid choice. It also enslaves the Reapers, makes Shepard's will their own, so again, you are not doing the Reapers' bidding by choosing control.
[quote]You want proof that is was a bad Idea that does fit with the dreams and other info?....Well here you go buddy!...[/quote]
Ah yes, the eyes. They actually create more inconsistencies in your theory than anything else, and here's why: If the eyes are, as you've suggested, an indication that someone has been indoctrinated, then the Illusive Man would have to have been indoctrinated in Mass Effect: Evolution. This is contradicted by the fact that he was able to orchestrate the entire downfall of the Collectors, something that drastically hindered the Reapers extinction process. Furthermore, Shepard didn't obtain these eyes when he was exposed to Object Rho, which is, again, where you claim that Shepard's indoctrination began. Additionally, when the Illusive Man first obtained his eyes, the pattern was inverted to what it was in the game's, making it the same pattern that Renegade Shepard's eyes take, meaning that if they are a sign of indoctrination, then Shepard was indoctrinated as early as the beginning of Mass Effect 2, which would make the Crucible blast originated from the Arrival DLC cluster a moot point, and it would also call the entirety of the second and third games into question, which I seriously doubt is a direciton Bioware would take with their story.
[quote]BTW the reason that most of this info is evidence is becaues it IS backed by the lore and codex and it fits to a T. [/quote]
What you call evidence is still merely your subjective interpretation of vague curiosities and minor inconsitencies, not proof that what you are saying is true, and no, it does not fit to a T. As I said before, I don't think IT is impossible, but I also don't think Bioware would anger its fans by selling them an incomplete game and conveying that information in the form of aspects of the game that could mean one thing or could mean another.[/quote]
1. There is a thing of rapid indoctrination as well. Also I would like to point out that the game does a 1-80 on us by making us think that Saren and TIM were right. That mite sit well with you but Ive got red flags all over that one in my mind mixed with the eyes of both endings.
2. they are plot holes...The catalyst is liying to you because if you remember in ME1 and ME2 they are intrested ONLY in humans...proof of this? Yes, in ME2 on Omega the vorcha were placing a virus that kills all but humans that the collectors GAVE them! This would not seem weird but if we go by the catalyst's logic then they would NEED to "save" them to "harvest"!...Why kill them? Also Sovereign tried to kill off all other races in the galaxy before the invasion with the rachni, Why would he do this if they want to make them "ascend"? Last, in ME2 they are only harvesting humans and killing the others off. There are other plot hole but I forgot them. I will retype it when I can remember.
3. They were presured with time. Bioware ask for 8 more months and they only got 2 or 3 by EA. In the leak they mention that indoc was in the game so it makes sense that they would risk this (inorder to get the type of ending that they wanted). They could really use indoc here in the fullest! thats why the DLC is free...it was part of the game you already bought. Also if it was only 3 months that got approved and they say that the DLC comes out in Summer (lets say August) then that fits there earlier plan of 8 months. Also if it is the I.T. then it would be better then face value of what we see as the ending, so I dont think people are going to be mad. I think they will be thanked for it! Bioware said in a tweet that if we knew what there were planning then we would hold on to our saves and hang in there!
4. Your right he cant predict the future but there is something that you have over looked. Its talked about in that video but I will just tell you I guess. That Bioware has said in ether the CE copy or the stratigy guide that Bioware uses the camera and narative as an actuall way to get through to the player. This means that this is Bioware's way of a warning and is also Shepards subconscious telling him that somthing is not right.
5. reguarding the process of indoctrination. They cant gain control of you unless you submit to there suggestions like is says in the codex! The codex states that you have to be broken down with hallucinations/headaches/ paranoia and so on to brake you mentally. Once this happends they try to get you into making a choice based on there "suggestions". Its in the codex. This is why Saren thought that his choices were his own when actually the reapers "tricked" him..or lied to him.
6.Things got more screwed up as I went on. TIM new indoc powers for example as well as the shadow brokers electric power things as well as the kid and everything about him, as well again by how Hackett even knows your on the citadel (or even alive) after the call that no one made it in the citadel.
7. Again something your over looking. He says that he followed you up but actually got there first because he contacts you and asks if you here. Second the question reamains, Why didnt anderson stop the all reatreat call and why did they say no one made it to the beam...?anderson? Where is he in all of this?
8. On the surface Yes the kid represents lose because an illusion with no purpose to hide behind is not an illusion! If you pay attention the reapers are even trying to appeall the that part of shepard by having the catalyst as the little boy inorder to psychologically "affect" him. Answer this..If not to affect him that way then why use the little boy as an image of its self? One more thing...Assuptions are assumptions untill there are backed by logic/lore/ test results and connections, then they become evidence of a theory that is closer to being proven.
9. You did not read that carfully, or correctly...It says that they removed or dropped that game machanic where we lose control of our shepard. It did NOT say that they dropped indcotrination. If you read on you notice that the
reason they dropped the machanic of the player losing full control is that it did not work with choice dialogue. In other words (if your still not following me) is that they are working indoctrintion into a part that would work. It also mentions that they are short on time...hint...hint. Read it again!
10. The fact that you asked this question is why I knew you did not watch the video. that file has been on the forms a bit but Iam sorry I dont have a link other then that video. I will tell you at what part of the video in a minute.
11.The fact that they include both shepard VA is a red flag again. Take this one as you will but its clearly a ploy by bioware to ether hint at us or give us a clue useing the narative.
12. This one can be taken as you will again because it can go in any number of ways. One way is that during this part of the talking he is free of the reapers (for a time) inoder to dwell on this better and to let the mental brake down come full circle. Note that SHepard was not shot in the ribs but the camera makes it a point to show us with new blood ALL over his arm. Also you can hear sheaprd grunt in pain as well when you shoot anderson( shepard grunts but didnt get shoot, interesting!)...this is why the camera shows us the wound! Did you notice that?
13. No, the mental brake down is what happends first(indoctrinated people dont know that they are indoctrinated). Look at all the indctrinated victims...The scientist on that reaper in ME2 were seeing things as well as hallusinating. When they were fully indoctrinated they converted themselves into husks. Also the biggest one is that the people we have talked to did not believe that they were indoctrinated because they thought there choices were there own when they were not.
Full indoctrination is a full blown husk! 14. Benezia herself even tells you that she "gave into the reaper willingly" and as I mentioned, You do have to be broken down...we have seen some form of mental break down in every single indoctrinated person as well as the codex mentioning a WHOLE list of mental break down techniques in it.
15. Again an illusion is not an illusion with out cover. This is the narative again by bioware and its creative and clever as f*ck.
16. So TIM is the master of indoctrination? He seems to be indoctrinated himself which is a contradiction to what we see and is a major plot hole if true! TIM can just make Shepard shoot himself but no he wants to talk (for some weird reason, as if its because its not TIM at all). Its also a plot hole because he is not smarter then the reapers and that power is better then what they have and could have use it against Shepard in ME1(with saren).
17. The pick is a little blury but if you zoom in you see that it matches perfectly. Take the time and study it. The point still reamains however about the location not being sol. There are red flags EVERYWHERE at the end of ME3! (and no Iam not talking about the explosions)!
18.Red flags to the max on this one friend! First, the place where you make your choices are not on the crucible side of it (remember that its "said" that orgainics made it) there on the citadel...wait a minute, Did organics build the citadel as well? That part on the citadel was made for the crucible, and did you notice that the plans of the crucible survive EVERY cycle but everything else is destroyed? Also if TIM is indoctrinated why do the reaper let Ki Lang take off with the knowlege of the catalyst on thesia if he is already indoctrinated? Remember that TIM is wanting to use the crucible as well. Speaking of that why does TIM tell the reapers that Shepard and the crucible are coming? the reapers move it to earth even though TIM needs the crucible! Now to the meat of it. The game trys to trick you into doing what the reapers did to Saren and TIM...its Bioware being artistic and absolutely genius. Never before have people gone against there own plan of killin the reapers the whole serise the to listen to a "kid" and betray that plan for the same EXACT plan Saren had (di to reaper influance) as well as TIM's plan (due to reaper influence) , and last you make one of thoes choice (
is also due to reaper influence)! Remember people that the kid...IS...your enemy thats been trying to kill you the whole time...a
reaper!
19. Yes, Saren did want exactly what synthesis is! Its a unification! If you know that the reapers would never carry out synthesis or control then you know that the catalyst is liying to you as well like he did the others!
Second if you chose Synthesis your not ACTUALLY doing that...its a lie...an illusion to get you to trust the "kid" ! A reaper convenced TIM that it was real as did they convice Saren that unification was real. Synthesis is unification!
The catalyst is your enemy...dont forget that! You trust him without questioning him fully? that pic with the illusive mans eyes shows without a doubt that your the one being controled and the narative camera MAKES IT A POINT TO SHOW US!
20 WOW that one went WWWAAAYYYY over your head. Let me explain, His eyes have nothing to do with an indoctrinated person becasues we dont see those eyes on anyone but TIM. The Eyes are
symbolic to what the game is trying to tell you. It symblizes that TIM is trying to control the reapers and the eyes at the end on both tell us that we have become him!
This means that the catalyst is wrong and we fell for the lie and in both in end up buring like the game warned up about in his dream! Notice that no matter what you do you die in control and synthesis (trusting the KID gets us killed/burned) but in destroy we can survive! this proves what the dream was warning about control/synthesis.
BTW I do notice from your statments that you dont infact understand the I.T. because you missed its key points. I respect your opinion even though I disagree with you. Feel free to continue this if you want I will stay.
Modifié par KevShep, 14 mai 2012 - 05:08 .
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