I did feel where the endings really fell flat is that we got a wad of exposition and plot without much detail, explanation, or fluff in those last ten minutes. My biggest problem with them was pacing, lack of clarity, and to some extent, lack of closure.
SUDDENLY, STUFF HAPPENED. PLOTTWISTPLOTTWISTPLOTTWIST... STUFF HAPPENED STUFF HAPPENED HERE'S SOME MORE STUFF. Roll credits. Wait what?
How many people failed the test by not choosing Destroy?
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TSA_383
, mai 09 2012 08:23
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#752
Posté 14 mai 2012 - 06:20
Geneaux486
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Hadeedak wrote...
I did feel where the endings really fell flat is that we got a wad of exposition and plot without much detail, explanation, or fluff in those last ten minutes. My biggest problem with them was pacing, lack of clarity, and to some extent, lack of closure.
SUDDENLY, STUFF HAPPENED. PLOTTWISTPLOTTWISTPLOTTWIST... STUFF HAPPENED STUFF HAPPENED HERE'S SOME MORE STUFF. Roll credits. Wait what?
Exactly, it throws too much at us too fast. I hope that what they do with the ending DLC is slow things down a little, and really flesh out those last few minutes.
#753
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 04:16
KevShep
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Geneaux486 wrote...
Before I go any farther I want to tell yoy what indoctrination really is according to the lore becasues I see that your not really sure. When I ment "husks" I was not talking about the ones use in the spikes, Iam talking about the ones we see in Virmire...thoes Salarians (as well as others in ME). Full blown indoctrination is the process completed, at this point the persons mind is no longer there own. In full indoctrination they are no long listening to the reapers "suggestions"...they are being controled by the reapers directly. At that time the mind of the person starts to decay...Saren mentions this part in ME1, Saren- "The more control the reapers have over a person the less capable that person becomes". This is true of those salarians that attack you if you let them out.
The best part of indoctrination for the reapers is not the full indoctrintaion but the process! During the process the reapers can do more with there victim then if they were fully indoctrinated. A fully indoctrinated person will just stand there waiting for command...usless for the reapers and it also kills them in days. If slow indoctrination process takes place then the reapers can do more with the victim over a long period of time before they complete the indoctrinaton process...but once its completed then the mind decay will still kill them in days. The last part of the codex tell us this and we also see it in the games.
Codex...
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years
Now lets brake it down one part at a time...
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
In indoctrination the mind must be reprogramed into acceptance. There are ONLY two ways this can happen, through pyshsical and psycholgical means.
The limbic system,
The limbic system is a set of evolutionarily primitive brain structures located on top of the brainstem and buried under the cortex. Limbic system structures are involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. Such emotions include fear, anger, and emotions related to sexual behavior. The limbic system is also involved in feelings of pleasure that are related to our survival, such as those experienced from eating and sex. We know that TIM right out mentions this saying that "control is a means of survival"-TIM(control), Saren also mentions the NEED for survival through "a union of flesh and steel...the strangth of both and the weakness of nether!"-Saren (synthesis). Notice that it also says "suggestions", this means that the idea of the person unaware of the process is the best kind of agent and tool for them to use. A fully indoctrinated person takes to much power for the reapers to use effectively as mentioned in the ME book "Retribution" they have to control Grayson off and on because of this.
We see evidence that EVERYTHING is happening to Shepard mentioned above. Shepard is being "conditioned" in his dreams as well as awake, also in the book "retribution" Grayson and TIM sees that the best time for the reapers to break down your mental walls is during your unconcious moments bceause its harder to resist in sleep. This is ftting all too well in ME3 already.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
The first one here does not seem to apply to shep other then headaches (he mentions them one time or another) but this can be passed off as he is working too hard. The Codex mentions that they DONT have to have all of the symtems but we do know that Shepard is having hallucinations of a ghostly presence...the kid! Throughout his dreams we also hear voices in the mind, Noice the key word ultimately...this means that the reapers are no longer trying to "trick" you into giving into there suggestion (as mentioned in the codex) becuase the indoctrination process is complete...meaning a husk. However we do hear voices in the mind that maybe masked by the reapers as people shepard knows, the reapers are trying to trick him so they WOULD NEVER use there own voices...yet.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
This one is also happening to shepard. The..."kid"...is the enemy that the game tries toget you to trust throught suggestions of unification and control at the end.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years
This next one further conferms that the process (not the full indoctrination) is the most important part of the indoctrination( as well as mentioned by Saren in ME1). The mind begins to decay! This is why the reapers "trick" there victims into thinking that there thoughts are there own when actually its the reapers thoughts. This is not a forced process of dominance over there will, its carfull menipulation or tricking them with there suggetions over a long period of time(or short). If they are having to not use menipulation then they are useing direct control which leads to a faster decay because the victim is no longer using there own mind anymore. Direct control is the final process of indoctrination and we see this in many people in ME. One of them being the asari that use help in virmire and later in ME2...She goes crazy and blows herself up in ME3 killing 4 and injuring 1. She could not have been tricked into doing this so it must be direct control after years of suggestive indoctrination.
A FULL indoctrinated person cant think for themselves. If there fully indoctrinated then the persons mental ability is not able to think for themselves becauses the reapers have already psyhologically weaken there minds and a weak mind is not a good agent because the reapers can not control of them 24/7 as the book mentions ,therefor they make terrible agents. Remember that indoctrination weakens the mind and this causes the decay so it the mind can be trick into thinking that its its own then the mental walls can last longer. This means that the reapers will have there will done on them and prolonge the decay for years or months.
Modifié par KevShep, 15 mai 2012 - 04:21 .
#754
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 05:47
Geneaux486
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Yeah I'm well aware of what indoctrination is. I'm saying that Shepard isn't experiencing it. The dreams, the Catalyst, and everything else, while they could be symptoms of indoctrination, could also just as easily be normal dreams for someone in Shepard's situation, and the effort of the Reaper AI to appear more personable to Shepard. The reason that these things are not symptoms of Indoctrination are what I pointed out earlier:
The fact that the narrative continues after Shepard makes his choice and shows the audience that these things are happening the way Shepard was told they would refutes the idea that the endings are a hallucination. Even if Shepard is suffering the effects of indoctrination at this point (though aside from his encounter with the Illusive Man, Shepard has control of himself), that does not mean that the endings are fake. Again, as I've pointed out, the game confirms to the player at multiple points that the endings are, indeed, real. There is no test, there is no illusion, there is only a difficult choice in which you decide the fate of the galaxy in one of three ways.
The game cuts to an audience-neutral perspective and shows us that things happen exactly as the Catalyst says they will. In control and synthesis both, the Reapers withdraw from the battle. In Synthesis, you can see from Joker and EDI that the synthesis did indeed happen. Then you've got the stargazer and telling his grandson that it happened, which, by the way, still plays even if Shepard survives the activation of the Crucible, confirming beyond a doubt that all three endings have the same degree of realism. To top it all off, the game tells you straight up at the end that Shepard ended the Reaper threat no matter which option you choose. The fact that these things are observable in-game utterly disproves the idea that the endings, as they currently are, are any form of illusion.
The fact that the narrative continues after Shepard makes his choice and shows the audience that these things are happening the way Shepard was told they would refutes the idea that the endings are a hallucination. Even if Shepard is suffering the effects of indoctrination at this point (though aside from his encounter with the Illusive Man, Shepard has control of himself), that does not mean that the endings are fake. Again, as I've pointed out, the game confirms to the player at multiple points that the endings are, indeed, real. There is no test, there is no illusion, there is only a difficult choice in which you decide the fate of the galaxy in one of three ways.
#755
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 05:49
KevShep
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[quote]Geneaux486 wrote...
[quote]1. There is a thing of rapid indoctrination as well. Also I would like to point out that the game does a 1-80 on us by making us think that Saren and TIM were right. That mite sit well with you but Ive got red flags all over that one in my mind mixed with the eyes of both endings.[/quote]
As I've explained, Saren and the Illusive Man were not right. Saren believed that the Reapers would bring about synthesis, and he was wrong. The Illusive Man thought exploiting Reaper tech would bring about control, and he was wrong. The Crucible, which is not of Reaper design, is what made those things possible.
[quote]2. they are plot holes...The catalyst is liying to you because if you remember in ME1 and ME2 they are intrested ONLY in humans...proof of this? Yes, in ME2 on Omega the vorcha were placing a virus that kills all but humans that the collectors GAVE them! This would not seem weird but if we go by the catalyst's logic then they would NEED to "save" them to "harvest"!...Why kill them? Also Sovereign tried to kill off all other races in the galaxy before the invasion with the rachni, Why would he do this if they want to make them "ascend"? Last, in ME2 they are only harvesting humans and killing the others off. There are other plot hole but I forgot them. I will retype it when I can remember.[/quote]
None of those are plotholes. Humans were selected by the Reapers to be the next capital ship, hence the special focus. Other races would have been preserved as Destroyers.
[quote]3. They were presured with time. Bioware ask for 8 more months and they only got 2 or 3 by EA. In the leak they mention that indoc was in the game so it makes sense that they would risk this (inorder to get the type of ending that they wanted). They could really use indoc here in the fullest! thats why the DLC is free...it was part of the game you already bought. Also if it was only 3 months that got approved and they say that the DLC comes out in Summer (lets say August) then that fits there earlier plan of 8 months. Also if it is the I.T. then it would be better then face value of what we see as the ending, so I dont think people are going to be mad. I think they will be thanked for it! Bioware said in a tweet that if we knew what there were planning then we would hold on to our saves and hang in there! [/quote]
The same guy that tweeted that last bit also clarified that he wasn't talking about post-ending DLC. The excerpt you showed me earlier of the leaked stuff indicates that it wasn't time that forced them to drop the indoctrination idea, but the fact that the mechanics weren't working out.
[quote]4. Your right he cant predict the future but there is something that you have over looked. Its talked about in that video but I will just tell you I guess. That Bioware has said in ether the CE copy or the stratigy guide that Bioware uses the camera and narative as an actuall way to get through to the player. This means that this is Bioware's way of a warning and is also Shepards subconscious telling him that somthing is not right. [/quote]
Yes, there are many audience-neutral points of view through all three games. There is no proof that this translates to Shepard's dreams. In fact, the dreams are about as "in Shepard's head" as you can get, therefore there was no warning issued to the player, only a manifestation of the things Shepard has been going through up until now.
[quote]5. reguarding the process of indoctrination. They cant gain control of you unless you submit to there suggestions like is says in the codex! The codex states that you have to be broken down with hallucinations/headaches/ paranoia and so on to brake you mentally. Once this happends they try to get you into making a choice based on there "suggestions". Its in the codex. This is why Saren thought that his choices were his own when actually the reapers "tricked" him..or lied to him.[/quote]
Indoctrination forcibly alters one's mindset. This has been established as early as the first game. Saren was not indoctrinated for most of the first game because the diminished functionality that comes with indoctrination would have made Saren useless in Sovereign's plan.
[quote]6.Things got more screwed up as I went on. TIM new indoc powers for example as well as the shadow brokers electric power things as well as the kid and everything about him, as well again by how Hackett even knows your on the citadel (or even alive) after the call that no one made it in the citadel.[/quote]
Hackett saw the arms open. That would be a pretty clear indicator that someone fulfilled the mission. As for the Shadow Broker's "electric power things", they're only vaugly similar to what you see in the Citadel, and there's nothing to suggest that the Citadel wouldn't have mechanisms like that.
[quote]7. Again something your over looking. He says that he followed you up but actually got there first because he contacts you and asks if you here. Second the question reamains, Why didnt anderson stop the all reatreat call and why did they say no one made it to the beam...?anderson? Where is he in all of this?[/quote]
He didn't get there before Shepard. Shepard was unconcious for at least a few moments after being beamed aboard the Citadel. You see him wake up.
[quote]8. On the surface Yes the kid represents lose because an illusion with no purpose to hide behind is not an illusion! If you pay attention the reapers are even trying to appeall the that part of shepard by having the catalyst as the little boy inorder to psychologically "affect" him. Answer this..If not to affect him that way then why use the little boy as an image of its self? One more thing...Assuptions are assumptions untill there are backed by logic/lore/ test results and connections, then they become evidence of a theory that is closer to being proven.[/quote]
Taking the form of the child to gain credibility may be underhanded, but not indicative of indoctrination.
[quote]9. You did not read that carfully, or correctly...It says that they removed or dropped that game machanic where we lose control of our shepard. It did NOT say that they dropped indcotrination. If you read on you notice that the reason they dropped the machanic of the player losing full control is that it did not work with choice dialogue. In other words (if your still not following me) is that they are working indoctrintion into a part that would work. It also mentions that they are short on time...hint...hint. Read it again![/quote]
I read it. They dropped the mechanic because it was conflicting with the dialogue choice mechanic and there's nothing to suggest that they would bring it back.
[quote]10. The fact that you asked this question is why I knew you did not watch the video.[/quote]
You caught me. I thought I could hide the fact that I didn't do that thing I emphatically said I wasn't going to do but there's no getting past you.
[quote]11.The fact that they include both shepard VA is a red flag again. Take this one as you will but its clearly a ploy by bioware to ether hint at us or give us a clue useing the narative.[/quote]
It is not clearly anything of the sort. It's as open to wildly differing interpretations as the rest of your so-called evidence.
[quote]12. This one can be taken as you will again because it can go in any number of ways. One way is that during this part of the talking he is free of the reapers (for a time) inoder to dwell on this better and to let the mental brake down come full circle. Note that SHepard was not shot in the ribs but the camera makes it a point to show us with new blood ALL over his arm. Also you can hear sheaprd grunt in pain as well when you shoot anderson( shepard grunts but didnt get shoot, interesting!)...this is why the camera shows us the wound! Did you notice that?[/quote]
You're barely coherent here, but I'll take a shot at trying to respond. I think you're suggesting that the voice distortion stops because the Reapers are giving Shepard a break? That's speculation and I don't think it's likely. As for Shepard grunting as he shoots Anderson, that's probably because he doesn't like the fact that he's shooting Anderson.
[quote]13. No, the mental brake down is what happends first(indoctrinated people dont know that they are indoctrinated). Look at all the indctrinated victims...The scientist on that reaper in ME2 were seeing things as well as hallusinating. When they were fully indoctrinated they converted themselves into husks. Also the biggest one is that the people we have talked to did not believe that they were indoctrinated because they thought there choices were there own when they were not. Full indoctrination is a full blown husk! [/quote]
Full indoctrination is not a full-blown husk. What happens with the dragon's teeth is a completely different process. Secondly, both Shiala and Benezia knew that they were indoctrinated.
[quote]14. Benezia herself even tells you that she "gave into the reaper willingly" and as I mentioned, You do have to be broken down...we have seen some form of mental break down in every single indoctrinated person as well as the codex mentioning a WHOLE list of mental break down techniques in it.[/quote]
She gave into Saren's logic willingly because she had already been indoctrinated. As I said, it is a symptom, not a cause.
[quote]16. So TIM is the master of indoctrination? He seems to be indoctrinated himself which is a contradiction to what we see and is a major plot hole if true! TIM can just make Shepard shoot himself but no he wants to talk (for some weird reason, as if its because its not TIM at all). Its also a plot hole because he is not smarter then the reapers and that power is better then what they have and could have use it against Shepard in ME1(with saren).[/quote]
The Illusive Man figured out the mechanics behind Indoctrination. Next time you see him, he has limited, somewhat clumsy control of people that are near him. This isn't a plothole, it's simple cause and effect.
[quote]17. The pick is a little blury but if you zoom in you see that it matches perfectly. Take the time and study it. The point still reamains however about the location not being sol. There are red flags EVERYWHERE at the end of ME3! (and no Iam not talking about the explosions)![/quote]
1. It doesn't match perfectly. The point from which the blast is originating and the point where the Arrival DLC took place are in distinctly different places. It's close enough to Sol to actually be Sol.
[quote] First, the place where you make your choices are not on the crucible side of it (remember that its "said" that orgainics made it) there on the citadel...wait a minute, Did organics build the citadel as well? That part on the citadel was made for the crucible,[/quote]
You've got that backwards. The Crucible plans were adapted to plug into that part of the Citadel.
[quote]and did you notice that the plans of the crucible survive EVERY cycle but everything else is destroyed?[/quote]
Not all traces of previous civilizations are wiped out. That aside, the Crucible surviving in digital and/or physical form at the end of each cycle is quite possible if proper steps are taken to preserve it, which clearly happened.
[quote]Also if TIM is indoctrinated why do the reaper let Ki Lang take off with the knowlege of the catalyst on thesia if he is already indoctrinated? Remember that TIM is wanting to use the crucible as well.[/quote]
Yes, the Illusive Man wants to use the Crucible to control the Reapers, hence why he had Kai Leng steal the prothean VI containing the information about the Catalyst.
[quote]Speaking of that why does TIM tell the reapers that Shepard and the crucible are coming? the reapers move it to earth even though TIM needs the crucible![/quote]
'Cause he barely understands his own motivations at that point. Inconsistent actions like that were a long time coming with the Illusive Man's degrading mental state.
[quote]Now to the meat of it. The game trys to trick you into doing what the reapers did to Saren and TIM...its Bioware being artistic and absolutely genius. Never before have people gone against there own plan of killin the reapers the whole serise the to listen to a "kid" and betray that plan for the same EXACT plan Saren had (di to reaper influance) as well as TIM's plan (due to reaper influence) , and last you make one of thoes choice (
is also due to reaper influence)! Remember people that the kid...IS...your enemy thats been trying to kill you the whole time...a reaper![/quote]
And again, this is incorrect. The Reapers had no plan resembling Synthesis. Converting people into Reaper form, sacrificing their form and individuality, is what the Reapers were doing. Synthesis accomplishes something they could not, and disproves the idea that organics cannot keep their own form. Again, Synthesis is not a Reaper objective. Control, that one shouldn't have to be explained. The Reapers do not want Shepard to enslave them. That would just be stupid. The Catalyst is very straightforward about his motives and goals. He is tasked with ensuring the continuity of organic life in the broadest sense, and the solution he came to was harvesting each race at a certain point and preserving them in Reaper form. When the Crucible is plugged in, and the Catalyst tells you this himself, it introduces new options that the Catalyst had not thought of before, cheif among them being synthesis. The Catalyst admits that his solution no longer works and attempts to cooperate with Shepard to find a better one. That is what's happening in the ending. There is no Reaper victory in activating the Crucible, no matter which choice you make.
[quote]19. Yes, Saren did want exactly what synthesis is! Its a unification! If you know that the reapers would never carry out synthesis or control then you know that the catalyst is liying to you as well like he did the others![/quote]
The Reapers would never carry out synthesis because they never considered the option nor had the means to do it. They didn't think they needed to do anything beyond ascending each race to join their ranks. The Catalyst brings up synthesis because it's introduced by the Crucible. And no, Saren did not want what Synthesis is. Saren's version of synthesis was a large-scale version of what he was at the end, with tubes and wires all over him.
[quote]Second if you chose Synthesis your not ACTUALLY doing that...its a lie...an illusion to get you to trust the "kid" ! A reaper convenced TIM that it was real as did they convice Saren that unification was real. Synthesis is unification! The catalyst is your enemy...dont forget that! You trust him without questioning him fully? that pic with the illusive mans eyes shows without a doubt that your the one being controled and the narative camera MAKES IT A POINT TO SHOW US![/quote]
That's speculation, and in this case, it can be proven false because, as I've shown, Synthesis is not what Saren had envisioned, nor was it ever a Reaper goal (it invalidates all the atrocities they've committed and losses they've incurred over countless cycles). It's not about trusting the Catalyst, it's about trusting the weapon that was designed and built by organic races to stop the Reapers, which it does, regardless of which choice you make. There is no wrong choice.
[quote]20 WOW that one went WWWAAAYYYY over your head. Let me explain, His eyes have nothing to do with an indoctrinated person becasues we dont see those eyes on anyone but TIM. The Eyes are symbolic to what the game is trying to tell you. It symblizes that TIM is trying to control the reapers and the eyes at the end on both tell us that we have become him! This means that the catalyst is wrong and we fell for the lie and in both in end up buring like the game warned up about in his dream! Notice that no matter what you do you die in control and synthesis (trusting the KID gets us killed/burned) but in destroy we can survive! this proves what the dream was warning about control/synthesis.[/quote]
This is your interpretation, and it isn't a very good one. I could see this being a possibility if the game cut off after Shepard died, but that doesn't happen. The game cuts to an audience-neutral perspective and shows us that things happen exactly as the Catalyst says they will. In control and synthesis both, the Reapers withdraw from the battle. In Synthesis, you can see from Joker and EDI that the synthesis did indeed happen. Then you've got the stargazer and telling his grandson that it happened, which, by the way, still plays even if Shepard survives the activation of the Crucible, confirming beyond a doubt that all three endings have the same degree of realism. To top it all off, the game tells you straight up at the end that Shepard ended the Reaper threat no matter which option you choose. The fact that these things are observable in-game utterly disproves the idea that the endings, as they currently are, are any form of illusion. As I've said, there's barely an argument to be had here. [/quote]
1. The fact that the crucible plans have survived when everything else is destroyed be the reapers and the fact the the place that you make your three choices are on the citadel gives your anwser little creadit.
2. You next answer (I dont mean this in a rude way) is just gasping at straws. Where in the game is this mentioned? The subject still reamains...why the interest?
3. First off the tweet was in reponse to a question about the EC DLC, so yes it was about the DLC and nowhere in that comment did he say it was not about the DLC. Second, I never said that they dropped if because of time...I was mentioning that they were short on time meaning that they could not have scraped indoctrination because of how big it is to the story that would play into. If you notice most of the game seems to suggest that indoctrination is aleady at work so dropping indoctrination is not possible with the time left. Also ONLY a game machnic was dropped NOT part of the story.
4. I will prove that its a warning! In the dream we see the kid run up to dream shep and hug him and then they burn right? At first I thought that this was just a meaning tha shepard was going to die and join the kid in the end. There are two really BIG things to notice here...One is the look that dream Shepard gives you (along with evil music), and the second one is that as they are burning Shepard is...smiling! In the past dreams we see the kid burning with a look on his face that says "please don let me die", yet in the last one they are both happy that they are buring! This is a CLEAR warning! Pay attention to detail.
5.Indoctrination is NOT forced on them. They get them to willingly accept indoctrination through tricking them.
6. There is no way for him to know that its shepard on the citadel or that he is even alive.
7. I can understand the first part of you answer but you did not answer the second one.
8. There is no reason for the catalsyt to take that form, ether way its proof that there in his head.
9. The machnic was dropped...not the story part. Machanic=gameplay, its says nothing of the idea of indoctrination being dropped, infact it still supports it because they are looking for a way to use it along side dialouge.
10. I know.
11. I guess they put that in there for the hell of it right?
I dont think so dude. There is a reason and that FACT that it is there is telling.
12. First, it is speculation because its odd it just stops for that part but in the rest of if you DO hear it. Also why would it stop if there in the same place as they were when they were talking with an eco? Second and most importanly is you avoided my comment on the NEW wound in shepard that the camera makes a point to show us as well as Shepards LEFT arm completely in blood (it was not before).
13. I have mentioned this in the post above about indoctrination (so read it). Next, Benesia was ALSO tricked by the reapers into believeing that she could resist them so it still hold true.
14. No, She gave in because the reapers (through psyhologically) had her view them with awe(symptom of indoctrination) as she mentions smiling at his every word in awe.
16. that is not limited control my friend. He MAKES Shepard shoot Anderson. Why dont he make Shepard shoot himself instead of talking if its the reapers controling him? Yes its still a plot hole because the reapers have not done that to anyone in the series.
17. You do know where sol is right? Its nowhere near that spot. Second if you look at the inner arm ( the one just part where its is shown) then you see the same exact arm in the other pick. The rest is blury around the second arm (also the most inner arm as well) so its hard to tell there but the other arms conferms where it is.
-Pay really close attention here please....The fact that the choices requied for the crucible are on the citadel side of the plan means that it COULD NOT have been a design by the organics becaues those three choices cant be sitting there for no reason! Also they would have had to KNOWN the ins and outs of the citadel to know that it did that...that means they would have known about the catalyst in other cycles. Example: you cant put a car battery in a plane and make it work, You would have to redesign the plane around the battery to make it happen meaning that you have to know ALL the ins and outs of it.
-No there is no way that the plans can even survive ONE cycle. The reason being is that the Prothean VI tells us that in every cycle there are groups of people that think that they can control the reapers. These people are indoctrinated and BETRAY the others. This is why he says that they could not finish the crucible. If that is true then how did the plans survive the indoctrinated agents? This means also that the reapers knew of it!
-If he wants to use the crucible then why did he let the reapers know of our plan?
- Keep in mind that the reapers are controling his every thought through suggestions.
-Again this is the process of "suggestions" from the catalsyt/reaper. This is the part the dream warned us about. Also you have it wrong...The reapers NEVER intended control or synthesis. It was an Idea place into TIM's head as well as Sarens head...the whole series follows a pattern.
-BTW you ARE trusting the catalyst NOT the crucible! He is your ENEMY the whole time. Indoctrination is a big part of there plan and you are giving in to its suggestions like it says in the codex. illusions are powerfull! Also Saren's idea is the same...its just the delivery that is different. If you notice as well TIM's idea is the same but the delivery is also different then he thought because the crucible kills you and TIM is prepard to do it differently form how we see him.
20. Of couse dude! If we knew right then and there that the game was indoctrination then there is not speculation that Bioware wanted. Also what we see at the end is sheps mind playing out what he was tricked into believing. That scene has nothing to do with the reapers, its just shepards mind playing if off the illusion. There is also data files in the game that says "Dream Foliage" of the last part in the game. After this we see a scene of him waking up! Did you also notice that the kid at the end talking to the grandfather is the catalsyt? I cant believe that you believe that message at the end that all we got was a stupid message that we won and then in THE SAME MESSAGE conferming that we need to buy more DLC! this sound like a reassurence to me.
You cant indoctrinate shepard alone...you need to also indoctrinate the player along side them. Bioware wanted speculations. Lastly watch that video it tells things better then me.
[quote]1. There is a thing of rapid indoctrination as well. Also I would like to point out that the game does a 1-80 on us by making us think that Saren and TIM were right. That mite sit well with you but Ive got red flags all over that one in my mind mixed with the eyes of both endings.[/quote]
As I've explained, Saren and the Illusive Man were not right. Saren believed that the Reapers would bring about synthesis, and he was wrong. The Illusive Man thought exploiting Reaper tech would bring about control, and he was wrong. The Crucible, which is not of Reaper design, is what made those things possible.
[quote]2. they are plot holes...The catalyst is liying to you because if you remember in ME1 and ME2 they are intrested ONLY in humans...proof of this? Yes, in ME2 on Omega the vorcha were placing a virus that kills all but humans that the collectors GAVE them! This would not seem weird but if we go by the catalyst's logic then they would NEED to "save" them to "harvest"!...Why kill them? Also Sovereign tried to kill off all other races in the galaxy before the invasion with the rachni, Why would he do this if they want to make them "ascend"? Last, in ME2 they are only harvesting humans and killing the others off. There are other plot hole but I forgot them. I will retype it when I can remember.[/quote]
None of those are plotholes. Humans were selected by the Reapers to be the next capital ship, hence the special focus. Other races would have been preserved as Destroyers.
[quote]3. They were presured with time. Bioware ask for 8 more months and they only got 2 or 3 by EA. In the leak they mention that indoc was in the game so it makes sense that they would risk this (inorder to get the type of ending that they wanted). They could really use indoc here in the fullest! thats why the DLC is free...it was part of the game you already bought. Also if it was only 3 months that got approved and they say that the DLC comes out in Summer (lets say August) then that fits there earlier plan of 8 months. Also if it is the I.T. then it would be better then face value of what we see as the ending, so I dont think people are going to be mad. I think they will be thanked for it! Bioware said in a tweet that if we knew what there were planning then we would hold on to our saves and hang in there! [/quote]
The same guy that tweeted that last bit also clarified that he wasn't talking about post-ending DLC. The excerpt you showed me earlier of the leaked stuff indicates that it wasn't time that forced them to drop the indoctrination idea, but the fact that the mechanics weren't working out.
[quote]4. Your right he cant predict the future but there is something that you have over looked. Its talked about in that video but I will just tell you I guess. That Bioware has said in ether the CE copy or the stratigy guide that Bioware uses the camera and narative as an actuall way to get through to the player. This means that this is Bioware's way of a warning and is also Shepards subconscious telling him that somthing is not right. [/quote]
Yes, there are many audience-neutral points of view through all three games. There is no proof that this translates to Shepard's dreams. In fact, the dreams are about as "in Shepard's head" as you can get, therefore there was no warning issued to the player, only a manifestation of the things Shepard has been going through up until now.
[quote]5. reguarding the process of indoctrination. They cant gain control of you unless you submit to there suggestions like is says in the codex! The codex states that you have to be broken down with hallucinations/headaches/ paranoia and so on to brake you mentally. Once this happends they try to get you into making a choice based on there "suggestions". Its in the codex. This is why Saren thought that his choices were his own when actually the reapers "tricked" him..or lied to him.[/quote]
Indoctrination forcibly alters one's mindset. This has been established as early as the first game. Saren was not indoctrinated for most of the first game because the diminished functionality that comes with indoctrination would have made Saren useless in Sovereign's plan.
[quote]6.Things got more screwed up as I went on. TIM new indoc powers for example as well as the shadow brokers electric power things as well as the kid and everything about him, as well again by how Hackett even knows your on the citadel (or even alive) after the call that no one made it in the citadel.[/quote]
Hackett saw the arms open. That would be a pretty clear indicator that someone fulfilled the mission. As for the Shadow Broker's "electric power things", they're only vaugly similar to what you see in the Citadel, and there's nothing to suggest that the Citadel wouldn't have mechanisms like that.
[quote]7. Again something your over looking. He says that he followed you up but actually got there first because he contacts you and asks if you here. Second the question reamains, Why didnt anderson stop the all reatreat call and why did they say no one made it to the beam...?anderson? Where is he in all of this?[/quote]
He didn't get there before Shepard. Shepard was unconcious for at least a few moments after being beamed aboard the Citadel. You see him wake up.
[quote]8. On the surface Yes the kid represents lose because an illusion with no purpose to hide behind is not an illusion! If you pay attention the reapers are even trying to appeall the that part of shepard by having the catalyst as the little boy inorder to psychologically "affect" him. Answer this..If not to affect him that way then why use the little boy as an image of its self? One more thing...Assuptions are assumptions untill there are backed by logic/lore/ test results and connections, then they become evidence of a theory that is closer to being proven.[/quote]
Taking the form of the child to gain credibility may be underhanded, but not indicative of indoctrination.
[quote]9. You did not read that carfully, or correctly...It says that they removed or dropped that game machanic where we lose control of our shepard. It did NOT say that they dropped indcotrination. If you read on you notice that the reason they dropped the machanic of the player losing full control is that it did not work with choice dialogue. In other words (if your still not following me) is that they are working indoctrintion into a part that would work. It also mentions that they are short on time...hint...hint. Read it again![/quote]
I read it. They dropped the mechanic because it was conflicting with the dialogue choice mechanic and there's nothing to suggest that they would bring it back.
[quote]10. The fact that you asked this question is why I knew you did not watch the video.[/quote]
You caught me. I thought I could hide the fact that I didn't do that thing I emphatically said I wasn't going to do but there's no getting past you.
[quote]11.The fact that they include both shepard VA is a red flag again. Take this one as you will but its clearly a ploy by bioware to ether hint at us or give us a clue useing the narative.[/quote]
It is not clearly anything of the sort. It's as open to wildly differing interpretations as the rest of your so-called evidence.
[quote]12. This one can be taken as you will again because it can go in any number of ways. One way is that during this part of the talking he is free of the reapers (for a time) inoder to dwell on this better and to let the mental brake down come full circle. Note that SHepard was not shot in the ribs but the camera makes it a point to show us with new blood ALL over his arm. Also you can hear sheaprd grunt in pain as well when you shoot anderson( shepard grunts but didnt get shoot, interesting!)...this is why the camera shows us the wound! Did you notice that?[/quote]
You're barely coherent here, but I'll take a shot at trying to respond. I think you're suggesting that the voice distortion stops because the Reapers are giving Shepard a break? That's speculation and I don't think it's likely. As for Shepard grunting as he shoots Anderson, that's probably because he doesn't like the fact that he's shooting Anderson.
[quote]13. No, the mental brake down is what happends first(indoctrinated people dont know that they are indoctrinated). Look at all the indctrinated victims...The scientist on that reaper in ME2 were seeing things as well as hallusinating. When they were fully indoctrinated they converted themselves into husks. Also the biggest one is that the people we have talked to did not believe that they were indoctrinated because they thought there choices were there own when they were not. Full indoctrination is a full blown husk! [/quote]
Full indoctrination is not a full-blown husk. What happens with the dragon's teeth is a completely different process. Secondly, both Shiala and Benezia knew that they were indoctrinated.
[quote]14. Benezia herself even tells you that she "gave into the reaper willingly" and as I mentioned, You do have to be broken down...we have seen some form of mental break down in every single indoctrinated person as well as the codex mentioning a WHOLE list of mental break down techniques in it.[/quote]
She gave into Saren's logic willingly because she had already been indoctrinated. As I said, it is a symptom, not a cause.
[quote]16. So TIM is the master of indoctrination? He seems to be indoctrinated himself which is a contradiction to what we see and is a major plot hole if true! TIM can just make Shepard shoot himself but no he wants to talk (for some weird reason, as if its because its not TIM at all). Its also a plot hole because he is not smarter then the reapers and that power is better then what they have and could have use it against Shepard in ME1(with saren).[/quote]
The Illusive Man figured out the mechanics behind Indoctrination. Next time you see him, he has limited, somewhat clumsy control of people that are near him. This isn't a plothole, it's simple cause and effect.
[quote]17. The pick is a little blury but if you zoom in you see that it matches perfectly. Take the time and study it. The point still reamains however about the location not being sol. There are red flags EVERYWHERE at the end of ME3! (and no Iam not talking about the explosions)![/quote]
1. It doesn't match perfectly. The point from which the blast is originating and the point where the Arrival DLC took place are in distinctly different places. It's close enough to Sol to actually be Sol.
[quote] First, the place where you make your choices are not on the crucible side of it (remember that its "said" that orgainics made it) there on the citadel...wait a minute, Did organics build the citadel as well? That part on the citadel was made for the crucible,[/quote]
You've got that backwards. The Crucible plans were adapted to plug into that part of the Citadel.
[quote]and did you notice that the plans of the crucible survive EVERY cycle but everything else is destroyed?[/quote]
Not all traces of previous civilizations are wiped out. That aside, the Crucible surviving in digital and/or physical form at the end of each cycle is quite possible if proper steps are taken to preserve it, which clearly happened.
[quote]Also if TIM is indoctrinated why do the reaper let Ki Lang take off with the knowlege of the catalyst on thesia if he is already indoctrinated? Remember that TIM is wanting to use the crucible as well.[/quote]
Yes, the Illusive Man wants to use the Crucible to control the Reapers, hence why he had Kai Leng steal the prothean VI containing the information about the Catalyst.
[quote]Speaking of that why does TIM tell the reapers that Shepard and the crucible are coming? the reapers move it to earth even though TIM needs the crucible![/quote]
'Cause he barely understands his own motivations at that point. Inconsistent actions like that were a long time coming with the Illusive Man's degrading mental state.
[quote]Now to the meat of it. The game trys to trick you into doing what the reapers did to Saren and TIM...its Bioware being artistic and absolutely genius. Never before have people gone against there own plan of killin the reapers the whole serise the to listen to a "kid" and betray that plan for the same EXACT plan Saren had (di to reaper influance) as well as TIM's plan (due to reaper influence) , and last you make one of thoes choice (
is also due to reaper influence)! Remember people that the kid...IS...your enemy thats been trying to kill you the whole time...a reaper![/quote]And again, this is incorrect. The Reapers had no plan resembling Synthesis. Converting people into Reaper form, sacrificing their form and individuality, is what the Reapers were doing. Synthesis accomplishes something they could not, and disproves the idea that organics cannot keep their own form. Again, Synthesis is not a Reaper objective. Control, that one shouldn't have to be explained. The Reapers do not want Shepard to enslave them. That would just be stupid. The Catalyst is very straightforward about his motives and goals. He is tasked with ensuring the continuity of organic life in the broadest sense, and the solution he came to was harvesting each race at a certain point and preserving them in Reaper form. When the Crucible is plugged in, and the Catalyst tells you this himself, it introduces new options that the Catalyst had not thought of before, cheif among them being synthesis. The Catalyst admits that his solution no longer works and attempts to cooperate with Shepard to find a better one. That is what's happening in the ending. There is no Reaper victory in activating the Crucible, no matter which choice you make.
[quote]19. Yes, Saren did want exactly what synthesis is! Its a unification! If you know that the reapers would never carry out synthesis or control then you know that the catalyst is liying to you as well like he did the others![/quote]
The Reapers would never carry out synthesis because they never considered the option nor had the means to do it. They didn't think they needed to do anything beyond ascending each race to join their ranks. The Catalyst brings up synthesis because it's introduced by the Crucible. And no, Saren did not want what Synthesis is. Saren's version of synthesis was a large-scale version of what he was at the end, with tubes and wires all over him.
[quote]Second if you chose Synthesis your not ACTUALLY doing that...its a lie...an illusion to get you to trust the "kid" ! A reaper convenced TIM that it was real as did they convice Saren that unification was real. Synthesis is unification! The catalyst is your enemy...dont forget that! You trust him without questioning him fully? that pic with the illusive mans eyes shows without a doubt that your the one being controled and the narative camera MAKES IT A POINT TO SHOW US![/quote]
That's speculation, and in this case, it can be proven false because, as I've shown, Synthesis is not what Saren had envisioned, nor was it ever a Reaper goal (it invalidates all the atrocities they've committed and losses they've incurred over countless cycles). It's not about trusting the Catalyst, it's about trusting the weapon that was designed and built by organic races to stop the Reapers, which it does, regardless of which choice you make. There is no wrong choice.
[quote]20 WOW that one went WWWAAAYYYY over your head. Let me explain, His eyes have nothing to do with an indoctrinated person becasues we dont see those eyes on anyone but TIM. The Eyes are symbolic to what the game is trying to tell you. It symblizes that TIM is trying to control the reapers and the eyes at the end on both tell us that we have become him! This means that the catalyst is wrong and we fell for the lie and in both in end up buring like the game warned up about in his dream! Notice that no matter what you do you die in control and synthesis (trusting the KID gets us killed/burned) but in destroy we can survive! this proves what the dream was warning about control/synthesis.[/quote]
This is your interpretation, and it isn't a very good one. I could see this being a possibility if the game cut off after Shepard died, but that doesn't happen. The game cuts to an audience-neutral perspective and shows us that things happen exactly as the Catalyst says they will. In control and synthesis both, the Reapers withdraw from the battle. In Synthesis, you can see from Joker and EDI that the synthesis did indeed happen. Then you've got the stargazer and telling his grandson that it happened, which, by the way, still plays even if Shepard survives the activation of the Crucible, confirming beyond a doubt that all three endings have the same degree of realism. To top it all off, the game tells you straight up at the end that Shepard ended the Reaper threat no matter which option you choose. The fact that these things are observable in-game utterly disproves the idea that the endings, as they currently are, are any form of illusion. As I've said, there's barely an argument to be had here. [/quote]
1. The fact that the crucible plans have survived when everything else is destroyed be the reapers and the fact the the place that you make your three choices are on the citadel gives your anwser little creadit.
2. You next answer (I dont mean this in a rude way) is just gasping at straws. Where in the game is this mentioned? The subject still reamains...why the interest?
3. First off the tweet was in reponse to a question about the EC DLC, so yes it was about the DLC and nowhere in that comment did he say it was not about the DLC. Second, I never said that they dropped if because of time...I was mentioning that they were short on time meaning that they could not have scraped indoctrination because of how big it is to the story that would play into. If you notice most of the game seems to suggest that indoctrination is aleady at work so dropping indoctrination is not possible with the time left. Also ONLY a game machnic was dropped NOT part of the story.
4. I will prove that its a warning! In the dream we see the kid run up to dream shep and hug him and then they burn right? At first I thought that this was just a meaning tha shepard was going to die and join the kid in the end. There are two really BIG things to notice here...One is the look that dream Shepard gives you (along with evil music), and the second one is that as they are burning Shepard is...smiling! In the past dreams we see the kid burning with a look on his face that says "please don let me die", yet in the last one they are both happy that they are buring! This is a CLEAR warning! Pay attention to detail.
5.Indoctrination is NOT forced on them. They get them to willingly accept indoctrination through tricking them.
6. There is no way for him to know that its shepard on the citadel or that he is even alive.
7. I can understand the first part of you answer but you did not answer the second one.
8. There is no reason for the catalsyt to take that form, ether way its proof that there in his head.
9. The machnic was dropped...not the story part. Machanic=gameplay, its says nothing of the idea of indoctrination being dropped, infact it still supports it because they are looking for a way to use it along side dialouge.
10. I know.
11. I guess they put that in there for the hell of it right?
I dont think so dude. There is a reason and that FACT that it is there is telling.12. First, it is speculation because its odd it just stops for that part but in the rest of if you DO hear it. Also why would it stop if there in the same place as they were when they were talking with an eco? Second and most importanly is you avoided my comment on the NEW wound in shepard that the camera makes a point to show us as well as Shepards LEFT arm completely in blood (it was not before).
13. I have mentioned this in the post above about indoctrination (so read it). Next, Benesia was ALSO tricked by the reapers into believeing that she could resist them so it still hold true.
14. No, She gave in because the reapers (through psyhologically) had her view them with awe(symptom of indoctrination) as she mentions smiling at his every word in awe.
16. that is not limited control my friend. He MAKES Shepard shoot Anderson. Why dont he make Shepard shoot himself instead of talking if its the reapers controling him? Yes its still a plot hole because the reapers have not done that to anyone in the series.
17. You do know where sol is right? Its nowhere near that spot. Second if you look at the inner arm ( the one just part where its is shown) then you see the same exact arm in the other pick. The rest is blury around the second arm (also the most inner arm as well) so its hard to tell there but the other arms conferms where it is.
-Pay really close attention here please....The fact that the choices requied for the crucible are on the citadel side of the plan means that it COULD NOT have been a design by the organics becaues those three choices cant be sitting there for no reason! Also they would have had to KNOWN the ins and outs of the citadel to know that it did that...that means they would have known about the catalyst in other cycles. Example: you cant put a car battery in a plane and make it work, You would have to redesign the plane around the battery to make it happen meaning that you have to know ALL the ins and outs of it.
-No there is no way that the plans can even survive ONE cycle. The reason being is that the Prothean VI tells us that in every cycle there are groups of people that think that they can control the reapers. These people are indoctrinated and BETRAY the others. This is why he says that they could not finish the crucible. If that is true then how did the plans survive the indoctrinated agents? This means also that the reapers knew of it!
-If he wants to use the crucible then why did he let the reapers know of our plan?
- Keep in mind that the reapers are controling his every thought through suggestions.
-Again this is the process of "suggestions" from the catalsyt/reaper. This is the part the dream warned us about. Also you have it wrong...The reapers NEVER intended control or synthesis. It was an Idea place into TIM's head as well as Sarens head...the whole series follows a pattern.
-BTW you ARE trusting the catalyst NOT the crucible! He is your ENEMY the whole time. Indoctrination is a big part of there plan and you are giving in to its suggestions like it says in the codex. illusions are powerfull! Also Saren's idea is the same...its just the delivery that is different. If you notice as well TIM's idea is the same but the delivery is also different then he thought because the crucible kills you and TIM is prepard to do it differently form how we see him.
20. Of couse dude! If we knew right then and there that the game was indoctrination then there is not speculation that Bioware wanted. Also what we see at the end is sheps mind playing out what he was tricked into believing. That scene has nothing to do with the reapers, its just shepards mind playing if off the illusion. There is also data files in the game that says "Dream Foliage" of the last part in the game. After this we see a scene of him waking up! Did you also notice that the kid at the end talking to the grandfather is the catalsyt? I cant believe that you believe that message at the end that all we got was a stupid message that we won and then in THE SAME MESSAGE conferming that we need to buy more DLC! this sound like a reassurence to me.
You cant indoctrinate shepard alone...you need to also indoctrinate the player along side them. Bioware wanted speculations. Lastly watch that video it tells things better then me.
#756
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 05:49
KevShep
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Geneaux486 wrote...
Yeah I'm well aware of what indoctrination is. I'm saying that Shepard isn't experiencing it. The dreams, the Catalyst, and everything else, while they could be symptoms of indoctrination, could also just as easily be normal dreams for someone in Shepard's situation, and the effort of the Reaper AI to appear more personable to Shepard. The reason that these things are not symptoms of Indoctrination are what I pointed out earlier:The game cuts to an audience-neutral perspective and shows us that things happen exactly as the Catalyst says they will. In control and synthesis both, the Reapers withdraw from the battle. In Synthesis, you can see from Joker and EDI that the synthesis did indeed happen. Then you've got the stargazer and telling his grandson that it happened, which, by the way, still plays even if Shepard survives the activation of the Crucible, confirming beyond a doubt that all three endings have the same degree of realism. To top it all off, the game tells you straight up at the end that Shepard ended the Reaper threat no matter which option you choose. The fact that these things are observable in-game utterly disproves the idea that the endings, as they currently are, are any form of illusion.
The fact that the narrative continues after Shepard makes his choice and shows the audience that these things are happening the way Shepard was told they would refutes the idea that the endings are a hallucination. Even if Shepard is suffering the effects of indoctrination at this point (though aside from his encounter with the Illusive Man, Shepard has control of himself), that does not mean that the endings are fake. Again, as I've pointed out, the game confirms to the player at multiple points that the endings are, indeed, real. There is no test, there is no illusion, there is only a difficult choice in which you decide the fate of the galaxy in one of three ways.
If you read what I posted on indoctrination then it anwsers this!
Modifié par KevShep, 15 mai 2012 - 05:50 .
#757
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 05:53
balance5050
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Control-
The reapers LOVE to control, it's what they are all about. They have left technology scattered around the galaxy in order to control our evolutionary path, they control our future by forcing the most advanced civilizations to become them, there is practically NO aspect of life that they don't control in one way or another
Synthesis-
The reapers have always regarded themselves as the most advanced civilization, they ARE the prime example of synthesis, it's not pretty. They ARE the alpha predator and DON'T consider pure organics or pure synthetics to be anything more than fuel or nuisances. They believe that synthesis is the best evolutionary model to live by.
Destroy-
One thing the Catalyst says that rings true is they DO preserve life, they let organics live simply because they need us for survival, to destroy is to create chaos, but out of that chaos rises freedom, a new beginning, and infinite possibilities.
To believe that either control or synthesis is the answer is to agree with the reapers, which opens the door for them to exploit that side of your psyche, convincing you that siding with the reapers is a better solution than destroying them.
#758
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 06:00
KevShep
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Hadeedak wrote...
I did feel where the endings really fell flat is that we got a wad of exposition and plot without much detail, explanation, or fluff in those last ten minutes. My biggest problem with them was pacing, lack of clarity, and to some extent, lack of closure.
SUDDENLY, STUFF HAPPENED. PLOTTWISTPLOTTWISTPLOTTWIST... STUFF HAPPENED STUFF HAPPENED HERE'S SOME MORE STUFF. Roll credits. Wait what?
The only reason that the endings would not have more detail in them is if the endings were not as they seem other wise is a no brainer to put more detail in there but Bioware didnt on purpose.
#759
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 06:12
Hadeedak
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I don't get where you think there's only one interpretation. It's also possible the final cutscene with no combat started to feel like it was dragging, so content was cut.
Nothing I've seen points unilaterally to indoctrination, especially not something that silly.
I mean, if we want to accept that what the game shows us (stargazer ect) are essentially meaningless... Suddenly we don't have a infallible narrator and a whole lot more of the game is in doubt. Especially with such --IF I accept IT -- poor differentiation between perspectives. It also helps that the game clearly color codes 'not really happening' things in sepia tone. Maybe it's just messing with me. Whatever. But if so, I'm pretty much going to go with 'asari are illusions' because a species of universally attractive pseudo-parthenogenic biotics seems silly, so I don't accept it.
I can't help but feel we're running in circles. KevShep just isn't willing to acknowledge there's other ways of reading the ending besides indoctrination theory, and that it's highly subject to interpretation. Honestly, the endings are so vague as stands that there's a LOT of ways to read them, and indoctrination theory is far from the most outlandish. But it isn't a fact. And unlike reading the endings literally, it does have the burden of proof on it. Unless I'm missing something, the starting presupposition should be that the game means exactly what it says, then we can expand and speculate (including "It was allllll a reaper dream!") from there.
Nothing I've seen points unilaterally to indoctrination, especially not something that silly.
I mean, if we want to accept that what the game shows us (stargazer ect) are essentially meaningless... Suddenly we don't have a infallible narrator and a whole lot more of the game is in doubt. Especially with such --IF I accept IT -- poor differentiation between perspectives. It also helps that the game clearly color codes 'not really happening' things in sepia tone. Maybe it's just messing with me. Whatever. But if so, I'm pretty much going to go with 'asari are illusions' because a species of universally attractive pseudo-parthenogenic biotics seems silly, so I don't accept it.
I can't help but feel we're running in circles. KevShep just isn't willing to acknowledge there's other ways of reading the ending besides indoctrination theory, and that it's highly subject to interpretation. Honestly, the endings are so vague as stands that there's a LOT of ways to read them, and indoctrination theory is far from the most outlandish. But it isn't a fact. And unlike reading the endings literally, it does have the burden of proof on it. Unless I'm missing something, the starting presupposition should be that the game means exactly what it says, then we can expand and speculate (including "It was allllll a reaper dream!") from there.
Modifié par Hadeedak, 15 mai 2012 - 06:20 .
#760
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 06:32
Geneaux486
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KevShep wrote...
If you read what I posted on indoctrination then it anwsers this!
But it doesn't. There's nothing to answer. The very end of the game gives us cold hard proof that the final choice was not an illusion. All of your evidence that Shepard is indoctrinated is subjective and open to interpretation on its own. The fact that the game tells the player multiple times at the end that it really happened is objective and proves that your interpretation is incorrect.
To believe that either control or synthesis is the answer is to agree with the reapers, which opens the door for them to exploit that side of your psyche, convincing you that siding with the reapers is a better solution than destroying them.
Incorrect. Control bends the Reapers to Shepard's will, and in doing so, defeats them. The issue there isn't whether or not you agree with the Reapers, that's actually irrelevant. The issue is whether or not you're willing to sacrifice your synthetic friends and allies to stop them, or take the hit yourself and neutralize the Reaper threat non-violently. Synthesis proves the Reapers wrong by producing a form of life that is better than they are, an organic-synthetic DNA hyrbid that allows each and every individual to keep their life and individuality. It completely invalidates everything the Reapers have done through countless cycles, every atrocity they've committed, every loss they've incurred, their very philosophy. All three options defeat the Reapers. All three options go against what the Reapers want. There is no Reaper victory in the final choices. There is no sympathising with the Reapers unless the individual player does so independently. Did you?
Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 mai 2012 - 06:47 .
#761
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 08:44
KevShep
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Geneaux486 wrote...
KevShep wrote...
If you read what I posted on indoctrination then it anwsers this!
But it doesn't. There's nothing to answer. The very end of the game gives us cold hard proof that the final choice was not an illusion. All of your evidence that Shepard is indoctrinated is subjective and open to interpretation on its own. The fact that the game tells the player multiple times at the end that it really happened is objective and proves that your interpretation is incorrect.To believe that either control or synthesis is the answer is to agree with the reapers, which opens the door for them to exploit that side of your psyche, convincing you that siding with the reapers is a better solution than destroying them.
Incorrect. Control bends the Reapers to Shepard's will, and in doing so, defeats them. The issue there isn't whether or not you agree with the Reapers, that's actually irrelevant. The issue is whether or not you're willing to sacrifice your synthetic friends and allies to stop them, or take the hit yourself and neutralize the Reaper threat non-violently. Synthesis proves the Reapers wrong by producing a form of life that is better than they are, an organic-synthetic DNA hyrbid that allows each and every individual to keep their life and individuality. It completely invalidates everything the Reapers have done through countless cycles, every atrocity they've committed, every loss they've incurred, their very philosophy. All three options defeat the Reapers. All three options go against what the Reapers want. There is no Reaper victory in the final choices. There is no sympathising with the Reapers unless the individual player does so independently. Did you?
It would tell us its the ending if it was an illusion. The ending is so full of plot holes and inconsistent cut-scenes and stoy that it DOES put it in question as being complete truth.....Speculations. If it was not then they would not be telling us to speculate!
This what you said..." Control bends the Reapers to Shepard's will, and in doing so, defeats them." I keep going back the the illusive man, The reapers told him the SAME EXACT THING! Since the reapers CANT force indoctrination on somene against there wishes they have to give them choices. The trick is that the catalyst is trying to get you away from destroy by telling you that you can destroy all synthetic life if you want. If you listen to his voice its almost as if hes trying to make it out as murder and focuses on the geth rather then the reapers(as if he is trying to make you feel guilty). Destroy is the only one that shepard is seen not having TIM's eyes!
I chose Destory my first time because that was what I intended throughout the whole series! I could not wait to kill them all when I first played ME1 and it carried over all games. ME3 makes you stop and hesitate on it and then I thought...This is the head reaper! He can go to hell! If you notice as well the destroy ending is in red/Anderson and the control ending is in Blue/TIM. Blue=paragon, red=renagade, When has TIM ever been paragon? WHen has Anderson ever been renagade? When did you ever start listening to a reaper? Bioware is clever has hell I almost fell for it with synthesis my first time!
#762
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:01
KevShep
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Hadeedak wrote...
I don't get where you think there's only one interpretation. It's also possible the final cutscene with no combat started to feel like it was dragging, so content was cut.
Nothing I've seen points unilaterally to indoctrination, especially not something that silly.
I mean, if we want to accept that what the game shows us (stargazer ect) are essentially meaningless... Suddenly we don't have a infallible narrator and a whole lot more of the game is in doubt. Especially with such --IF I accept IT -- poor differentiation between perspectives. It also helps that the game clearly color codes 'not really happening' things in sepia tone. Maybe it's just messing with me. Whatever. But if so, I'm pretty much going to go with 'asari are illusions' because a species of universally attractive pseudo-parthenogenic biotics seems silly, so I don't accept it.
I can't help but feel we're running in circles. KevShep just isn't willing to acknowledge there's other ways of reading the ending besides indoctrination theory, and that it's highly subject to interpretation. Honestly, the endings are so vague as stands that there's a LOT of ways to read them, and indoctrination theory is far from the most outlandish. But it isn't a fact. And unlike reading the endings literally, it does have the burden of proof on it. Unless I'm missing something, the starting presupposition should be that the game means exactly what it says, then we can expand and speculate (including "It was allllll a reaper dream!") from there.
Its poor narrative as face value if it stands as truth that it was not I.T.. The reason that I.T. is said to be the only other way to save this mess of an ending. The I.T. fitts so perfectly with what is happening that the odvious inconsistence with the last 10 minutes makes more sense then seeing it at face value. There has been alot of things discovered by others that its almost funny (and a relief that there will be more to ME3) that its still debated. I still give creadit to the ones still refusing it however, they make speculatin it actually fun.
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
#763
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:28
Mobius-Silent
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KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 09:30 .
#764
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:36
KevShep
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Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
Well I am confused then, Why does it not make sense? Ive been telling you mine but I never hear the people against it other then they disagree and the answers that I do get make even less sense then ours.
#765
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:39
vixvicco
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Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
The thing about the IT theory is that most people that critisize it have not only seen at least one full video on it, but I am sure most of us have read through the IT thread (before it was locked down). It's great to have different views and to be creative, but for some its hard to let yourself believe something based on speculation. Especially when Bioware staff make statements that contradict the IT without even trying. They never said it was true, and they never said it was not true, but what they have said does not help the IT at all.
Modifié par vixvicco, 15 mai 2012 - 09:40 .
#766
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:41
TheGreatDayne
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There was... a test?
Well, I just synthesized everyone because... well... why not? No one outside the Crucible knew what happened, so they would just assume that that was what the Crucible does.
And I've always wanted to be part Synthetic... with the glowy veins and stuff... even if it kills me... Yeah, yeah... I'm being self-centric, but they put faith on the wrong person if they didn't want to be an organic-synthetic hybrid! Still, the delivery of the choices could have been much better.
Well, I just synthesized everyone because... well... why not? No one outside the Crucible knew what happened, so they would just assume that that was what the Crucible does.
And I've always wanted to be part Synthetic... with the glowy veins and stuff... even if it kills me... Yeah, yeah... I'm being self-centric, but they put faith on the wrong person if they didn't want to be an organic-synthetic hybrid! Still, the delivery of the choices could have been much better.
#767
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:50
Mobius-Silent
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Geneaux486 wrote...
Mobius-Silent wrote...
IMHO if you convert a prop (the Citadel) that is critical to the plot for the first 1/3 of the story into an actor with agency (The Catalyst) in the last 10 mins thus destroying the narrative coherency of the foundation of your story, that is bad writing, really really bad writing.
That's not what happened. The Catalyst, for one thing, is not the Citadel, it merely resides there. Furthermore, the Catalyst is nothing more than an expositional tool, a device that was needed to fill in the last few gaps in what we know (why exactly the Reapers do what they do, how we're supposed to activate the Crucible, etc.) If it wasn't the Catalyst, it would have been something else. It was information that needed to be conveyed, and none of the other characters had the knowlege to convey it, so an outside source was needed.
I disagree. The Catalyst claims two things "The Citadel is my home" and "The Citadel is part of me" the second statement inferry a whole slew of ability, control and familiarity that would call into question the plot of ME1
The line "The reapers are my solution, I control them" removes agency from the Reapers and passes the responsibility for their actions to the Catalyst. Including the plot of ME1. At that point the antagonist of ME1 (Sovereign) becomes a henchman (The same way Saren becomes a henchmen when we find out that Sovereign is controlling him) who's motivations should be driven by the the Catalyst), while at the same time, the Citadel (Part of the Catlayst) is the prop that is preventing the Antagonist's plan from coming to fruition.
I believe that Bioware _intended_ the Catalyst to be just a narrator because they didn't feel the player would be satisfied with the Reapers providing ending narration (as another Bioware writer suggested) but that doesn't mean it was good writing, it would have been so easy to have the narator without inferring that it had the motivation and ability to prevent ME1 from ending well for humanity, but they didn't even think of that, and that is disappointing.
Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 04:33 .
#768
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 09:59
Mobius-Silent
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KevShep wrote...
Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
Well I am confused then, Why does it not make sense? Ive been telling you mine but I never hear the people against it other then they disagree and the answers that I do get make even less sense then ours.
As has been said _many_ times _nothing_ in the I.T. checklist of assertions is actually proof, each and _every_ piece of so-called "proof" is simply an assertion that is more easily explained with a much more likely "Bad Writing" "Tight Deadlines" "Misunderstanding" "Conflating unrelated information" and most common "Pure speculation"
People aren't trying to "disprove" I.T. as there is no proof. All people are doing is pointing out flaws in the assertions that illustrate they are not (as you seem to think) a coherent whole.
Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 10:14 .
#769
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:01
KevShep
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vixvicco wrote...
Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
The thing about the IT theory is that most people that critisize it have not only seen at least one full video on it, but I am sure most of us have read through the IT thread (before it was locked down). It's great to have different views and to be creative, but for some its hard to let yourself believe something based on speculation. Especially when Bioware staff make statements that contradict the IT without even trying. They never said it was true, and they never said it was not true, but what they have said does not help the IT at all.
Its also hard to believe the current ending as not an illusion because it to is just speculation.
BTW Bioware people have said nothing to stamp out the I.T. infact things that they say are more suggesting that the current ending is not what it seems. Saying things like "it will be an Epilogue", an epilogue means final chapter! They also say things like they support there artistic integrity. If this is the case and they did rush it then they will cause more problems for themselves then what they have rather then just apolizise for it and just tell us what the CE is? The fact that they have not seems to suggest that there...IS...spoilers in the CE that were not in the actuall game.
#770
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:10
KevShep
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Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
Mobius-Silent wrote...
KevShep wrote...
The fact that your calling it outlandish tells me that you dont really understand the key points or reasons for the I.T. so to make a really long story short here is a current video telling you everything I.T. as well as arguments against it.........
We've seen the video, we understand, we disagree, it's _still_ outlandish, the "evidence" is nowhere near as compelling as you seem to think it is, neither does it "fit perfectly".
Try to understand this: we know what you're saying, we understand what you're saying , we disagree with what you're saying
Well I am confused then, Why does it not make sense? Ive been telling you mine but I never hear the people against it other then they disagree and the answers that I do get make even less sense then ours.
As has been said _many_ times. _nothing_ in the I.T. checklist of assertions is actually proof, each and _every_ piece of so-called "proof" is simply an assertion that is more easily explained with a much more likely "bad writing" "tight deadlines" "Misunderstanding" "Conflating unrelated information" and most common "Pure speculation"
People aren't trying to "disprove" I.T. as there is no proof. All people are doing is pointing out flaws in the assertions that illustrate they are not (as you seem to think) a coherent whole.
So you mean to tell me that the ending that has a lot in common with the three dreams in shepards head are just bad writing? not to mention that nearly everything said and done in the last 10 minutes of the game just happen to contradict the whole series in every way possible?
There is too much inconsistence with the last 10 minutes to be just bad writing ESPECIALLY when its the last game to an epic triogy to...JUST...be bad writing and then to make people speculate on the endings to be bad writing! commonsense!
Everything that does happen does support the indoctrination in the codex. Even the codex puts " on everything in the codex that is happening to shep.
There are more flaws in the face value ending then the I.T.
#771
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:19
Ieldra
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There was no test. That's just what some conspiracy theorists want you to believe in order to enshrine their preferred choice as canonical.TheGreatDayne wrote...
There was... a test?
Well, I just synthesized everyone because... well... why not? No one outside the Crucible knew what happened, so they would just assume that that was what the Crucible does.
And I've always wanted to be part Synthetic... with the glowy veins and stuff... even if it kills me... Yeah, yeah... I'm being self-centric, but they put faith on the wrong person if they didn't want to be an organic-synthetic hybrid! Still, the delivery of the choices could have been much better.
I chose as you did, and the Reapers left. The threat was ended. The Catalyst said so, the imagery said so, the game said so. Period. We may speculate about what comes after, but to deny these scenes is ridiculous.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 mai 2012 - 10:20 .
#772
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:24
KevShep
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Ieldra2 wrote...
There was no test. That's just what some conspiracy theorists want you to believe in order to enshrine their preferred choice as canonical.TheGreatDayne wrote...
There was... a test?
Well, I just synthesized everyone because... well... why not? No one outside the Crucible knew what happened, so they would just assume that that was what the Crucible does.
And I've always wanted to be part Synthetic... with the glowy veins and stuff... even if it kills me... Yeah, yeah... I'm being self-centric, but they put faith on the wrong person if they didn't want to be an organic-synthetic hybrid! Still, the delivery of the choices could have been much better.
I chose as you did, and the Reapers left. The threat was ended. The Catalyst said so, the imagery said so, the game said so. Period. We may speculate about what comes after, but to deny these scenes is ridiculous.
the artistic intergity by Bioware was to indoctrinated the player. Make the player actually make a choice that a shepard would make that not only affects the galaxy but the actuall player as well. Now that is immersion!
#773
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:35
Ieldra
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@KevShep:
Don't you see how incredibly insulting it is to tell players who don't agree with you they're mentally deficient? Reminds me of the time when political dissidents in the Soviet Union were put into asylums for mental dysfunction. Apparently, you're the kind of person who would do such a thing.
If you were honest, you would see that *if* the ending sequence was not real, all the choices would be equally suspect.
But anyway, it's useless to argue with a belief system. A significant subset of IT believers are a cult. That's the start and the end of it.
Don't you see how incredibly insulting it is to tell players who don't agree with you they're mentally deficient? Reminds me of the time when political dissidents in the Soviet Union were put into asylums for mental dysfunction. Apparently, you're the kind of person who would do such a thing.
If you were honest, you would see that *if* the ending sequence was not real, all the choices would be equally suspect.
But anyway, it's useless to argue with a belief system. A significant subset of IT believers are a cult. That's the start and the end of it.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 mai 2012 - 10:36 .
#774
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:36
Salvatore510
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Just a quick thing: If you choose control, what makes you think that shepard's control will even stick for more than a few cycles. The more time shepard spends with the reapers, the more easily they will be able to convince shepard that the cycle is necessary. In turn, yes, you have stopped the reapers, albiet temporarily, but in the end, when everyone thinks the reapers are gone, BAM! There they are, ready to end the galaxy again, harvest everyone, and then the cycle continues...
Hell, who's to say this hadn't happened before in the galaxy's history?
Hell, who's to say this hadn't happened before in the galaxy's history?
#775
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 10:40
Mobius-Silent
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KevShep wrote...
So you mean to tell me that the ending that has a lot in common with the three dreams in shepards head are just bad writing?
The end is badly written, but there is minimal commonality between the end and the dreams, just to rattle off some stock counters to I.T. assertions.
1. Trees: (There are similar "trees" present on the end run hence the notion of "dream trees" is irrelevent)
2. Scene changes after Harbinger beam: Standard LOD-style map creation, if you aren't supposed to pay attention to it, it will be removed from/never included in a map to maximise performance.
3. Fade-to-white same as dream : The shader asset is marked as "loss of conciousness" not "dream"
4. Surreal FX: You are supposed to be near fatally wounded
5. Depth of field changes: Same happens during ME1 sex scenes, it's just for effect.
Thats just a few, this is not "disproving" anything it is illustrating why these assertions aren't proof in the first place.
KevShep wrote...
not to mention that nearly everything said and done in the last 10 minutes of the game just happen to contradict the whole series in every way possible?
The ending is terrible, that said I.T. is _also_ terrible
KevShep wrote...
There is too much inconsistence with the last 10 minutes to be just bad writing ESPECIALLY when its the last game to an epic triogy to...JUST...be bad writing and then to make people speculate on the endings to be bad writing! commonsense!
Assertion by you, argument by faith in a higher power (Bioware) Yes, Bioware are capable of messing this up. Even if you like this "Theory" you need to accept that they are capable of messing up.
KevShep wrote...
Everything that does happen does support the indoctrination in the codex. Even the codex puts " on everything in the codex that is happening to shep.
No it isn't. If you make large assumptions ans speculate heavily you can make it such that I.T. doesn't contradict I.T. but support? No.
If Shep heard humming, maybe
If Shep heard whispers while concious (as _all_ other indoctrination victims, partial or otherwise have stated exist) maybe
If the "evidence" had actually shown progressive severity rather than isolated incidents that are of debatable attribution, maybe
But no, we simply have a soldier having bad dreams that get worse as monsters violate their friends and family. Nothing unexplained there.
KevShep wrote...
There are more flaws in the face value ending then the I.T.
Not at all, I.T. is _missing the ending_ it's like saying:
"I'd like a cake"
"Here is you cake box"
"I'd like a cake with the box"
"Sorry we only have bad cake here, you'd be better off without the cake"
"Ok.... but you still have my money"
"Yes but no cake is better than bad cake right?"
The answer is "No, they are as bad as each other, either way I get no good cake!"
Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 10:40 .
