1114 réponses à ce sujet

[Mobius-Silent]

Salvatore510 wrote...

Just a quick thing: If you choose control, what makes you think that shepard's control will even stick for more than a few cycles. The more time shepard spends with the reapers, the more easily they will be able to convince shepard that the cycle is necessary. In turn, yes, you have stopped the reapers, albiet temporarily, but in the end, when everyone thinks the reapers are gone, BAM! There they are, ready to end the galaxy again, harvest everyone, and then the cycle continues...

Hell, who's to say this hadn't happened before in the galaxy's history?

True, this is the sort of thing that Mac Walters was talking about with "Lots of speculation for everyone" which translates as "weasel out of explaining the consequences of your actions"

[MrPuschel]

"LOL LOOK AT ME I AM VERY SMART CUZ I BELIEVE IN INDOCTRINATION AND U ALL ARE DUMMYS"

[Mobius-Silent]

oops

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 10:46 .

[KevShep]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KevShep wrote...
So you mean to tell me that the ending that has a lot in common with the three dreams in shepards head are just bad writing?

The end is badly written, but there is minimal commonality between the end and the dreams, just to rattle off some stock counters to I.T. assertions.

1. Trees: (There are similar "trees" present on the end run hence the notion of "dream trees" is irrelevent)
2. Scene changes after Harbinger beam: Standard LOD-style map creation, if you aren't supposed to pay attention to it, it will be removed from/never included in a map to maximise performance.
3. Fade-to-white same as dream : The shader asset is marked as "loss of conciousness" not "dream"
4. Surreal FX: You are supposed to be near fatally wounded
5. Depth of field changes: Same happens during ME1 sex scenes, it's just for effect.

Thats just a few, this is not "disproving" anything it is illustrating why these assertions aren't proof in the first place.

KevShep wrote... 
not to mention that nearly everything said and done in the last 10 minutes of the game just happen to contradict the whole series in every way possible?
 

  

The ending is terrible, that said I.T. is _also_ terrible

KevShep wrote...
There is too much inconsistence with the last 10 minutes to be just bad writing ESPECIALLY when its the last game to an epic triogy to...JUST...be bad writing and then to make people speculate on the endings to be bad writing! commonsense!

  


Assertion by you, argument by faith in a higher power (Bioware) Yes, Bioware are capable of messing this up. Even if you like this "Theory" you need to accept that they are capable of messing up.

KevShep wrote... 
Everything that does happen does support the indoctrination in the codex. Even the codex puts " on everything in the codex that is happening to shep. 

No it isn't. If you make large assumptions ans speculate heavily you can make it such that I.T. doesn't contradict I.T. but support? No. 

If Shep heard humming, maybe
If Shep heard whispers while concious (as _all_ other indoctrination victims, partial or otherwise have stated exist) maybe
If the "evidence" had actually shown progressive severity rather than isolated incidents that are of debatable attribution, maybe

But no, we simply have a  soldier having bad dreams that get worse as monsters violate their friends and family. Nothing unexplained there.

KevShep wrote... 
There are more flaws in the face value ending then the I.T.

Not at all, I.T. is _missing the ending_ it's like saying:

"I'd like a cake"
"Here is you cake box"
"I'd like a cake with the box"
"Sorry we only have bad cake here, you'd be better off without the cake"
"Ok.... but you still have my money"
"Yes but no cake is better than bad cake right?"

The answer is "No, they are as bad as each other, either way I get no good cake!"

There is a reason why its speculation. Indoctrination of an individual is not know to the victum at all and if it is the player being indoctinrated then it would be hard to tell. In this case it is but there are subtle suggestions in the game that match with the inconsistences to the plot holes.

As far as the dream similarity to the last 10 min, dont forget..

-Oily shadows
-the same music you hear in the dreams as you do with the last 10 min
-the Kid
-slow motion in both dreams and last 10 min

Modifié par KevShep, 15 mai 2012 - 11:04 .

[KevShep]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@KevShep:
Don't you see how incredibly insulting it is to tell players who don't agree with you they're mentally deficient? Reminds me of the time when political dissidents in the Soviet Union were put into asylums for mental dysfunction. Apparently, you're the kind of person who would do such a thing.

If you were honest, you would see that *if* the ending sequence was not real, all the choices would be equally suspect.

But anyway, it's useless to argue with a belief system. A significant subset of IT believers are a cult. That's the start and the end of it.

 Iam sorry if I came off like that its just most people that I talk to know very little about the meaning and purpose of I.T. The questions they usually ask proof it.

[Breakdown Boy]

I took control, I thought it would work,,,,,,,,,,,,,arrrrgggghhhhhhhh......then I picked destroy, same ending...suprise....!!!!

[KevShep]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

I took control, I thought it would work,,,,,,,,,,,,,arrrrgggghhhhhhhh......then I picked destroy, same ending...suprise....!!!!

Bioware promised 16 different ending or so.

[DOYOURLABS]

Even if IT isn't true, I have to pick destroy. Simply because Saren picked synthesis and The Illusive Man picked control.

[Mobius-Silent]

KevShep wrote...
-Oily shadows

The assets are described as smoke shadows. The Rachni were not describing anything visual with the line "songs the color of oily shadow" it was the same synthesia they display due to communicating telepathically and trying to explain it orally.

 the same music you hear in the dreams as you do with the last 10 min 

The interface to the catalyst is AR, an overlay like the Geth Concensus, the catalyst's presence was interpreted  by Shepard (this also explains the use of the Shep VA's as part of the Catalyst's voice.

 the Kid

Appears in dreams due to guilt, same reason Sheps mind uses it to visualise the Catalyst. PTSD soldiers dream of the children they didn't save.

slow motion in both dreams and last 10 min

Slow motion so the last part of the beam run/walk, after that normal speed again, just limping. Just represents trauma.

reaper growls in the dream that also mentioned in ME book retribution as indoctrination process.

And heard by anyone fighting the reapers, I dreamt about the buzzer I used to have to run for when I worked at a theme park, perfectly normal. Also it's a good, oppressive noice, perfect for setting a scene

None of this is proof, it's speculation, or mistaken conflation of unrelated information

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mai 2012 - 11:20 .

[Affrayer]

I always take the 4th option. I hit the power button on my xbox.

[MaleficoKelpie]

I spent all my game player working on a peaceful solution
i was willing to save Benezia but she was too much indoctrinated
i saved Rachni Queen because she does'nt deserve to die
i was willing to save thorian (but if i remember correctly, i did not) and i saved thorian's controlled colonist
i was willing to save Saren and i managed to let him "awake" from indoctrination, and he killed himself
i was willing to save krogans, and i refused to  "fake" genphage's cure
i saved both Quarians and Geth and they are starting a symbiotic life together

if the ending would be based on my choose during the game, synthesis would be the one and only solution

i hope there is not a "right" endings and two "wrong" endings. I sincerely does'nt see how two genocide, blood cold homicide of a teammates (EDI), indirect homicide of whoever depends on technologies i will destroy, etc would be "righter" than a peaceful co-existence

i know there is a possibilities where destroy is "right" and control/synthesis is "wrong". If this i proven officially, THEN this game suck. Because for almost 200 hours i felt like my choices could change the universe, and now i can't believe i had only one choice (and completely different from whatever i did choose in the games) and every else is wrong

[shodiswe]

Destroy seems to be the only option that can break the cycle no matter what... I don't belive in the starbrats theory about synthetics destoryign everything, destroying the reapers proves that once and for all.

In the protheans cycle the proteans and organcis were defeating their synthetic nemesis until the reapers showed up and wiped them out...

same with the geth..

I think it's wrong to kill all the geth, but it's even worse to force synthesis on the whole galaxy, I think synthesis is a technological trap that's preventign further evolution by providign advanced tech before you are ready for it... Before you have realized the need and before you understand it.

Control doesn't seem like a final solution to the problem.. The reapers are still around and who knows how long sheaprds control can keep the reapers from interferign with organic evolution and interaction with synthetics and synthetic technology that might create a more natural and evolutionaly correct synthesis that commes from the natual evolution of the milkyway specis...

Destory is the the best option thoguh hurting the geth is a very unfortunate sideeffect, yet the added reaper code had kind of tainted the geth already due to the fast advancement to their specis that hapend before they were actualy ready, sure they were evolving towards true AI in their own way but it wasn't truly all by their own doing, so their evolutionary development is sketchy at best.
It might be close enough, they had realized the need before the solution was given... but.. well.. Who knows.
The biggest problem is that Ihate seeign shepard standign there buyign every argument the catalyst is throwing at him/her... Coem on let us fight back if we like to... throw a few sharp words at the catalyst, maybe a renegade interupt to rush away and destroy the reaeprs before the catalyst get's to finnish it's railroaded speach about control and synthesis...

[cyrslash1974]

Tweet from Mike Gamble few weeks ago.

Michael Gamble ‏ @GambleMike
@SHlFT Personally, I don't think the best ending is destroy, actually.

Hum... I dont know what to think about that.
This ending is the best ending for me (even if I hate all the endings). I'm now afraid to see the final result of the EC DLC...

[shodiswe]

MaleficoKelpie wrote...

I spent all my game player working on a peaceful solution
i was willing to save Benezia but she was too much indoctrinated
i saved Rachni Queen because she does'nt deserve to die
i was willing to save thorian (but if i remember correctly, i did not) and i saved thorian's controlled colonist
i was willing to save Saren and i managed to let him "awake" from indoctrination, and he killed himself
i was willing to save krogans, and i refused to  "fake" genphage's cure
i saved both Quarians and Geth and they are starting a symbiotic life together

if the ending would be based on my choose during the game, synthesis would be the one and only solution

i hope there is not a "right" endings and two "wrong" endings. I sincerely does'nt see how two genocide, blood cold homicide of a teammates (EDI), indirect homicide of whoever depends on technologies i will destroy, etc would be "righter" than a peaceful co-existence

i know there is a possibilities where destroy is "right" and control/synthesis is "wrong". If this i proven officially, THEN this game suck. Because for almost 200 hours i felt like my choices could change the universe, and now i can't believe i had only one choice (and completely different from whatever i did choose in the games) and every else is wrong

The problem with synthesis is that it's an enforced evolutionaly action, like genetically changing every turian to serve humanity as farmers and pacifying the Krogan and changing their birth rates making their reproduction cycle match their millenia long lives...

If synthesis is to hapen it has to come from the natual evolution of organics and syntetics, organics realizing they need an extra edge and sucessfully integrating the strengths of synthetics to the strengths of organic lifeforms.

Synthetics can be efficient although not nessesarily creative, since creativity requiers a certain amount of chaos... By merging chaors and order, creativity and efficiency you get the best of both worlds assuming both are aloowed to coexist.

Synthetics would be industrious and threaten organics simply by the speed of their processes that are streamlined and simple and the abscence of needign to rest, while organics would threaten synthetics by simply evolving and adapting in ways synthetics can't predict. There by the conflic between Chaos and order.

[vixvicco]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Salvatore510 wrote...

Just a quick thing: If you choose control, what makes you think that shepard's control will even stick for more than a few cycles. The more time shepard spends with the reapers, the more easily they will be able to convince shepard that the cycle is necessary. In turn, yes, you have stopped the reapers, albiet temporarily, but in the end, when everyone thinks the reapers are gone, BAM! There they are, ready to end the galaxy again, harvest everyone, and then the cycle continues...

Hell, who's to say this hadn't happened before in the galaxy's history?

True, this is the sort of thing that Mac Walters was talking about with "Lots of speculation for everyone" which translates as "weasel out of explaining the consequences of your actions"

I agree with this. I liked control but it felt very dodgy  and I ended up with destroy instead. I just wasn't sure that Shepard would stay Shepard but you're right, even that's just speculation. Because even with destroy no one knows to what extent synthetics are destroyed (as in, is it just AI or other synthetic life/objects).

[Pekkan]

TIM was able to assume somewhat direct control of Shepard and Anderson pretty much immediately on their arrival to that spot on Citadel, he even made Shepard to shoot Anderson. I think there are several examples of indoctrination getting worse over time, trying to enter some eternal wrestling over control with the Catalyst/Reapers felt somewhat risky.

[xxskyshadowxx]

All three ending choices are basically terrible and go against underlying themes previously established in the ME universe. It doesn't matter what you choose.

[Mobius-Silent]

Pekkan wrote...

TIM was able to assume somewhat direct control of Shepard and Anderson pretty much immediately on their arrival to that spot on Citadel, he even made Shepard to shoot Anderson. I think there are several examples of indoctrination getting worse over time, trying to enter some eternal wrestling over control with the Catalyst/Reapers felt somewhat risky.

Indeed but TIM was using direct control on Shep and Anderson, not indoctrination. He was using tech based on the the control signal that reapers use. The "Assuming direct control"-type stuff. Given that Shep's body dissolves after starting the control ending there is no organic mind left to indoctrinate, so I would assume that all that would be left is direct personality cyberwarfare and/or Reapers simply talking to Shep, after all, most humas would has problems holding onto their identity and sanity after being dissolved into some kind of hybrid AI. But I'm pretty sure that Catalyst-Shep doen't need to worry about basic indoctrination any more.

[FullmetalJ]

The catalyst wanted Shepard to effectively knock it off its thorne and take over its army of indestructible machines to do whatever he pleased? Perhaps even save all the races by fixing the relays with the reapers?
Do you see the flaw with your arguement there?

Also, Indoctrination gives the reapers total control over the victim, so if the catalyst didn't want shepard to destroy the reapers, then why would he even present the option?

The reapers demand obediance, not request it.

Also, I think the weird shadows were more to emphasise blood loss than anything else.
Again, with the way the endings were handled, there is ultimately only the players interpretation of events.

Modifié par FullmetalJ, 15 mai 2012 - 01:59 .

[WinterCrow]

I discovered IT several days after finishing the game, and sure, I like it, but still...

When I first played the ending I didn't even give it a second thought. Just as someone said before, I went straight to the destroy option. The other options felt so goddamn wrong...

I agree with OP in one thing, mainly: Starkid cannot be trusted. He was way too calm, he accepted the breaking of his cycle way too easily, everything was just too perfect after more than 3 years of conflict, slaughter and war. And then he comes and say either control or synthesis are OK, they are awesome, but destroy sucks, it's the worse option ever.

Come on, that was really fishy. I had a terribly bad feeling about the whole situation. Indoctrinated or not, as some of you guys say, Starkid is a freaking liar.

[jijeebo]

WinterCrow wrote...

I discovered IT several days after finishing the game, and sure, I like it, but still...

When I first played the ending I didn't even give it a second thought. Just as someone said before, I went straight to the destroy option. The other options felt so goddamn wrong...

I agree with OP in one thing, mainly: Starkid cannot be trusted. He was way too calm, he accepted the breaking of his cycle way too easily, everything was just too perfect after more than 3 years of conflict, slaughter and war. And then he comes and say either control or synthesis are OK, they are awesome, but destroy sucks, it's the worse option ever.

Come on, that was really fishy. I had a terribly bad feeling about the whole situation. Indoctrinated or not, as some of you guys say, Starkid is a freaking liar.

Look it at it from Star-Jars pov though, based on his idiot logic.


Control - Shepard will use his new abilities to prevent this innevitable synthetic apocalypse, even if it doesn't involve repeating the current cycle = Life continues

Synthesis - "Synthetic" is no longer a term somehow, so the innevitable synthetic apocalypse can no longer happen because all life is equal = Life continues

Destroy - Without the cycle to maintain order, organics will create synthetics that will ultimately destroy ALL life = Galaxy dies



It's understandable why he isn't bigging up Destroy, for him it's equivalent to deciding to nuke everything

[Ageless Face]

TSA_383 wrote...
Destroy:
-Anderson
-Hackett
-All of your squadmates
-Basically every "good" npc.

 

So, the "good guys" can never be wrong? 

 
Control/Synthesis:
-The Illusive Man
-Saren
-Kai Leng
-Dr Kenson
-Miranda's Father
What a fun, respectable group...

 

Dr. Kenson was indoctrinated. She doesn't count. Miranda's father and Kai leng don't care about anything except themselves. They should not even be on the list. TIM's methods were wrong. Shepard is not going to experiment on anyone. So control will not be such a bad choice.

 
And who do we see in the final sequence?
Destroy: Anderson
Control: The Illusive Man

 

So? Anderson Didn't even hear the catalyst's arguments. If he did then maybe he would have chosen control or synthesis. Even if he wouldn't and will still choose destroy, his knowlage about synthetics is not so wide as Sheaprd's. He might not see Synthetics as being relevant. Again, if he did then i doubt he will choose to destroy them. Droping Anderson's name as a proof for Destroy being the "good" option is not making the choice better. 

The ending choices are not a question of tactic, but moral. Why can't you accept that? choose what you think is right, don't bring evidence that has no real meaning to make your choice sound better than others. It will give BioWare the wrong ideas in the EC...

[Boradam]

Titus Thongger wrote...

I picked control the first time. but when I saw Shepard turning into a husk I was like 'OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?!!??!'

I picked Control while debating with myself as to if Destroy was the best option since it fufilled my original goal and five seconds in I dashboarded before I saw anything other than him being Huskified and chose Destroy.

I don't know if this can count as me choosing Destroy first or Control, since I just redid it entirely without watching the cutscene... also I was tired, stayed up playing from 9:00 PM to 5:00 AM.  

[azerSheppard]

Hahaha, it's funny how there are still people that believe in IT hahahaha lol

[Geneaux486]

The ending is so full of plot holes and inconsistent cut-scenes and stoy that it DOES put it in question as being complete truth.....Speculations. If it was not then they would not be telling us to speculate!

First of all, the ending isn't full of plotholes, it's full of questions that need answering.  Nothing we see in the ending contradicts what's been established previously, in some cases because things are explainable, and in other cases because we simply don't know enough about a specific thing to know that it contradicts anything.  Secondly, "Lots of speculation from everyone" doesn't translate to "You all need to speculate because the ending is fake."

Since the reapers CANT force indoctrination on somene against there wishes they have to give them choices.

Of course the Reapers force indoctrination, that's why nobody is able to resist it.  Don't rewrite canon to try to prove your point.

I chose Destory my first time because that was what I intended throughout the whole series! I could not wait to kill them all when I first played ME1 and it carried over all games. ME3 makes you stop and hesitate on it and then I thought...This is the head reaper! He can go to hell! If you notice as well the destroy ending is in red/Anderson and the control ending is in Blue/TIM. Blue=paragon, red=renagade, When has TIM ever been paragon? WHen has Anderson ever been renagade? When did you ever start listening to a reaper?  Bioware is clever has hell I almost fell for it with synthesis my first time!

 
Again, notice how no matter which choice you make, the effects of it are exactly what the Catalyst tells you they'll be.  It takes a leap of faith to choose any of the three choices, but it's not about trusting the Catalyst, it's about trusting your weapon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 mai 2012 - 03:44 .