1114 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Shepard Wins wrote...
For those who chose control on synthesis: Congratulations on keeping thousands of races from previous cycles in a liquified-then-solidified in bodies of Reaper form and thus denying all those races ther requiestat in pace. Still feel like a hero?

Why do you assume they all want to die?

Also the Reapers are freed from the Catalyst's control in Synthesis. Those who want can go kill themselves. Those who don't want will go on living.

[Ieldra]

WinterCrow wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

WinterCrow wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Uh... Jili, I hate to tell you this...

Control doesn't blow up the relays.

They do, in every option. It's the Citadel that doesn't blow up.

It has been sugested by Bioware (Jessica Merizan)that at least some of the relays are only shut down in the control ending. The cinematic where a relays is shown to explode is cut _very_ short in the control ending. Seemingly for no reason other than Bioware didn't want to show the relays rent asunder during that ending.

I just saw the cinematics to be sure, and they do blow up. Sure, the animation is shorter, but they still do. Maybe they don't vaporize and are just easier to rebuild.

About Jessica Merizan... same that with EDI walking out in the destroy option, I won't fully believe anything she said until I see it by myself.

All the Catalyst says is "releasing the energy of the crucible WILL destroy the relays" in every option. Everything points towards that. If Jessica *knows* they don't, wouldn't the kid be lying again?

Geez, ignoring everything till the EC comes would be healthier, and smarter, I just can't.

Evidence for Control not blowing up the relays:
(1) The break-up scene is missing.
(2) There is no giant energy beam in Control, just that expanding sphere. Thus, the energy of the Crucible has not been fully released.
(3) Control doesn't end the cycle since Shepard takes the Catalyst's place, again suggesting that the energy of the Crucible has not been released, since that would end the cycle.

More details here. Control is at the very least highly suggestive of not destroying the relays. And the more so, the closer you look.

[revo76]

Destroy:
-Anderson
-Hackett
-All of your squadmates
-Basically every "good" npc.


That"s why it's the correct choice.


Sidenote: 

In control ending Relays are gone too, re-watch the final. 

Modifié par revo76, 16 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[Mobius-Silent]

revo76 wrote...

Destroy:
-Anderson
-Hackett
-All of your squadmates
-Basically every "good" npc.

That"s why it's the correct choice.

This is completely false, we have no idea what the opinions of these people would be.
Shepards supposes that Anderson would destroy the reapers at any cost, however at that point the full costs aren't known.

For example: Low EMS destroy kills everyone in the vicinity of the blast, scorching the earch and destroying all the ships and all the relays. Low EMS control does _not_ scorch the earth and it is debatable whether the relay's are permanently destroyed (The are certianly not shown to be rent apart the way they are in the other endings)

We have no idea what those people whould choose given that information, because they are never given that information.

As has been said by others, there is no "correct" choice for the end (they are all as bad as each other) that was Bioware's explicit aim.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 16 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[WinterCrow]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Evidence for Control not blowing up the relays:
(1) The break-up scene is missing.
(2) There is no giant energy beam in Control, just that expanding sphere. Thus, the energy of the Crucible has not been fully released.
(3) Control doesn't end the cycle since Shepard takes the Catalyst's place, again suggesting that the energy of the Crucible has not been released, since that would end the cycle.

More details here. Control is at the very least highly suggestive of not destroying the relays. And the more so, the closer you look.

The fact that you wrote that thread doesn't make it true. All of your "visual evidences" are flawed, the relays DO shatter. Sure, they dont get turned into dust, but they are destroyed.

No beam? Of course there is no beam, that beam exists to destroy the reapers. The blue wave emitting "new orders" to the reapers, now under Shepard's command, is enough in the control ending.

About (3), "The crucible created new possibilities" and by "releasing the energy of the crucible" you achieve any of the 3 choices. The cycle ends, the energy is released. If the cycle didn't end, the reapers would wipe out organics anyway.

Your own evidence proves you wrong. Every choice destroys the relays, control is as bad as the rest.

[Geneaux486]

WinterCrow wrote...
control is as bad as the rest.

And as good as the rest.  It's about making the best of a bad situation, no matter which choice you go with.

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

 

Iam only going to say this one more time about what indoctrination is, and this time actually read it.
 
Dr. Kenson was NOT forced into coming up with that idea. Do you know what the limbic system is dude?

It makes it harder to resist changing your values and ways of thinking in order to survive. Knowing the reaper threat is why is makes it easier to decome indoctrinated like is was with kenson/saren/tim/benezia or that hanar. They ALL tried to find a way to stop them and in the end they joined them...why is this? They were tricked!!!!!!!! Benezia even says this.

As Ive mentioned, the only way they can force indoctrination on you is through implants! Saren in ME1 was resisting the reapers idea by doubting it. The reapers..."up graded" him to stranghten this resolve. If you have read the book retribution then you know that this is true because of what happend to Paul Grayson. Also one last bit of evidence to this(besides the codex) is the cerberus troops, they were there own mind untill they were integrated...or implanted. This is forced indoctrination. If you were paying attention then you would know that the codex says that they have to weaken your mental health(by psychologically) through the limbic system and TRY get you to give in to there SUGGESTIONS!

All indoctrinated people have ended up changing there views inorder to survive or survive in a..."better" way.
 
BTW...you mean to tell me that you never intended to kill the reapers? Did you ever think of joining Saren or TIM? That is what your doing if you pick control or synthesis. It does not matter if they were not useing the crucible to do it, the idea is that you changed your plans from a kid that is the one controling the reapers in the first place. The reapers are useing your weakness against you by making you pick against killing them and saving everyone or...kill them and kill your friends as well.........Survival no matter what, that is the reapers(or kid) tugging at your limbic system.   

-The limbic system is a set of evolutionarily primitive brain structures located on top of the brainstem and buried under the cortex. Limbic system structures are involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. Such emotions include fear, anger, and emotions related to sexual behavior. The limbic system is also involved in feelings of pleasure that are related to our survival

[Geneaux486]

Iam only going to say this one more time about what indoctrination is, and this time actually read it.

I have been reading it. What is factual about indoctrination does not support your claim that it can be resisted. Again, people are not "tricked" into becoming Indoctrinated, it is forced on them through sustained contact with the energy fields the Reapers generate. It degrades your mind.

BTW...you mean to tell me that you never intended to kill the reapers?

My Shepard's primary goal was to defend the races of the galaxy. If it could be done, say, by simply keeping the Reapers confined to dark space with no chance of escape, he'd have done it. In this case, killing them would also kill one of the races my Shepard sets out to protect, so instead he takes the hit himself and forcibly steers the Reapers away from his friends. It's that simple.

Did you ever think of joining Saren or TIM? That is what your doing if you pick control or synthesis.

And for the millionth time, this is completely and totally false. Saren wanted to submit to the Reapers and convert organics into cybernetic slaves to maintain them. Synthesis strengthens organic DNA, with no implications that any amount of freedom, control, or individuality is sacrificed. They are two completely different things, end of story. The Illusive Man was right about control being possible, wrong in the way he tried to do it. His idea of control and the reality of it are two completely different things.

the idea is that you changed your plans from a kid that is the one controling the reapers in the first place. The reapers are useing your weakness against you by making you pick against killing them and saving everyone or...kill them and kill your friends as well.........Survival no matter what, that is the reapers(or kid) tugging at your limbic system.

Except literally none of this is true, and is all contradicted by what is observable at the end of the game. For one thing, the Catalyst isn't giving you the options, your device that your side built is doing that. My Shepard specifically didn't care what the Catalyst had to say, he simply chose control as a way to stop the Reapers without sacrificing any of his allies. That is a correct choice, along with the other two. Then we see everything play out like the Catalyst said it would, relays break, Reapers die or leave, then credits. Then even IF you picked destroy and had your Shepard "wake up" it plays the exact same stargazer grandpa scene followed by the message in which the game literally spells out for you that you ended the Reaper threat. That is solid, irrefutable evidence that the ending is not an illusion, and that your opinion on the validity of control and synthesis is invalid.

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Iam only going to say this one more time about what indoctrination is, and this time actually read it.

I have been reading it. What is factual about indoctrination does not support your claim that it can be resisted. Again, people are not "tricked" into becoming Indoctrinated, it is forced on them through sustained contact with the energy fields the Reapers generate. It degrades your mind.

BTW...you mean to tell me that you never intended to kill the reapers?

My Shepard's primary goal was to defend the races of the galaxy. If it could be done, say, by simply keeping the Reapers confined to dark space with no chance of escape, he'd have done it. In this case, killing them would also kill one of the races my Shepard sets out to protect, so instead he takes the hit himself and forcibly steers the Reapers away from his friends. It's that simple.

Did you ever think of joining Saren or TIM? That is what your doing if you pick control or synthesis.

And for the millionth time, this is completely and totally false. Saren wanted to submit to the Reapers and convert organics into cybernetic slaves to maintain them. Synthesis strengthens organic DNA, with no implications that any amount of freedom, control, or individuality is sacrificed. They are two completely different things, end of story. The Illusive Man was right about control being possible, wrong in the way he tried to do it. His idea of control and the reality of it are two completely different things.

the idea is that you changed your plans from a kid that is the one controling the reapers in the first place. The reapers are useing your weakness against you by making you pick against killing them and saving everyone or...kill them and kill your friends as well.........Survival no matter what, that is the reapers(or kid) tugging at your limbic system.

Except literally none of this is true, and is all contradicted by what is observable at the end of the game. For one thing, the Catalyst isn't giving you the options, your device that your side built is doing that. My Shepard specifically didn't care what the Catalyst had to say, he simply chose control as a way to stop the Reapers without sacrificing any of his allies. That is a correct choice, along with the other two. Then we see everything play out like the Catalyst said it would, relays break, Reapers die or leave, then credits. Then even IF you picked destroy and had your Shepard "wake up" it plays the exact same stargazer grandpa scene followed by the message in which the game literally spells out for you that you ended the Reaper threat. That is solid, irrefutable evidence that the ending is not an illusion, and that your opinion on the validity of control and synthesis is invalid.

1. READ the codex its states that they have to get you to except there SUGGESTIONS, if it was not then it would not say this. I guess you forgot about Saren's ordeal. I guess you forgot that ALL subjects think that they can survive by other means! This is suggestive tricks! IT SAYS THIS IN THE CODEX...LIMBIC SYSTEM! They all want to survive....it says that the limbic system is about survival. This is easy to understand dude!

The sustained contact is what makes it hard to resist. The energy fields (ultra sonic) that you speak of is there connection. You have no idea what is factuall because you cant even get indoctrination right even when stright from the codex! You have not been reading it at all.

2.I will buy that one I think. But the kid does offer you a choice meaning that if all he wanted was control or synthesis then there would not even be destroy.  Indoctirnation is about subtle suggestive manipulation(JUST LIKE THE CODEX SAYS) so it makes sense that the kid would give you all choices like he does do because you have to give in willingly.  

3. Please tell me how you know that is false.  Remember this...


By your logic the reason he has TIM's eyes in BOTH is because of space magic. Also you never questioned me about the "dream Foliage" at the end of the normansy crash...why?

4. This one makes me think that your a troll if it spells it out in plain english when it says "reprograming the mind through suggestions by the Limbic system" the limbic system is about survival and ...oh look the other people in ME that were indoctrinated are in fear that they will not survive and this let the reapers suggest other means accepting indoctrination unknowingly.

Once more....again...The limbic system is a set of evolutionarily primitive brain structures located on top of the brainstem and buried under the cortex. Limbic system structures are involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. Such emotions include fear, anger, and emotions related to sexual behavior. The limbic system is also involved in feelings of pleasure that are related to our survival  

BTW if you still cant see what is in front of you about what indoctrination does then please by all means tell me how it works useing everything from the lore to codex and even what we see in the game. What is your take?

Modifié par KevShep, 17 mai 2012 - 10:19 .

[WinterCrow]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Did you ever think of joining Saren or TIM? That is what your doing if you pick control or synthesis.

And for the millionth time, this is completely and totally false. Saren wanted to submit to the Reapers and convert organics into cybernetic slaves to maintain them. Synthesis strengthens organic DNA, with no implications that any amount of freedom, control, or individuality is sacrificed. They are two completely different things, end of story. The Illusive Man was right about control being possible, wrong in the way he tried to do it. His idea of control and the reality of it are two completely different things.

the idea is that you changed your plans from a kid that is the one controling the reapers in the first place. The reapers are useing your weakness against you by making you pick against killing them and saving everyone or...kill them and kill your friends as well.........Survival no matter what, that is the reapers(or kid) tugging at your limbic system.

Except literally none of this is true, and is all contradicted by what is observable at the end of the game. For one thing, the Catalyst isn't giving you the options, your device that your side built is doing that. My Shepard specifically didn't care what the Catalyst had to say, he simply chose control as a way to stop the Reapers without sacrificing any of his allies. That is a correct choice, along with the other two. Then we see everything play out like the Catalyst said it would, relays break, Reapers die or leave, then credits. Then even IF you picked destroy and had your Shepard "wake up" it plays the exact same stargazer grandpa scene followed by the message in which the game literally spells out for you that you ended the Reaper threat. That is solid, irrefutable evidence that the ending is not an illusion, and that your opinion on the validity of control and synthesis is invalid.

"The Illusive Man was right about control being possible, wrong in the way he tried to do it" For what you know, you could also be wrong. A wounded, half-dead, desperate Shepard takes control of the Reapers with little to no information about what that means, except for the "but they will obey me" line.

And yes, the options are given by the crucible, of course they are, but they are presented by the damn kid, and he either doesn't exactly know what will happer or he freaking lies to you. YOU don't know what the crucible does, and you utterly believe everything that kid shaped blue light will tell you. The guy has a point, most people change their plans according to what the kid says, others (like you) just follow their plan by according to what the kid tells you.

Call it a plot hole, call it IT, call it a Reaper Trap, whatever you like... everything about the kid smells wrong, and every option is picked without even thinking about it (you die if you don't hurry) or the possibility to ask anything. That is why the "Reaper convenient" options like Control or Destroy will never seem right to me, ever.

And even if you consider those options your best chance, I can't believe you don't see how wrong the whole situation is, nor can I believe that you were never suspicious about the catalyst...

[WinterCrow]

john_sheparrd wrote...

I thnik many people failed the test destroy is the real choice because shepard is waking up after this choice (indoctrination attempts failed) on earth
how can anyone on the hater side go against this argumentP??

I don't think Shepard surviving is all that relevant... unless IT turns out to be true. But this thread is not about IT, we are not debating the options from that point of view, as much as I would like to see it made real.

[Mobius-Silent]

KevShep wrote...
 Also you never questioned me about the "dream Foliage" at the end of the normansy crash...why?

The "dream" assets are used in the actual dream sequences and re-used _all over_ the place, not just at the end 

In case you're not familliar with the package names, the assets that are primarily used in the actual dream sequence (BioA_Nor_600Dream) are also used:

In the intro (BioA_Cat002_100Intro).
On the Citadel (BioA_CitHub_Afterlife)
At the Ardat Yakshi Monastry (BioA_Cat002_410Graveyard)
In London before the beam run (BioA_End001_220Street)
At Grissom academy (BioA_OmgJck_200Ascension)

And other places. So the fact some of these are also used in the ending planetfall scene (BioA_End003_Planet) is not indicative of anything. 

[Mobius-Silent]

KevShep wrote...
Iam only going to say this one more time about what indoctrination is, and this time actually read it.
 
Dr. Kenson was NOT forced into coming up with that idea. Do you know what the limbic system is dude?

It makes it harder to resist changing your values and ways of thinking in order to survive. Knowing the reaper threat is why is makes it easier to decome indoctrinated like is was with kenson/saren/tim/benezia or that hanar. They ALL tried to find a way to stop them and in the end they joined them...why is this? They were tricked!!!!!!!! Benezia even says this.

As Ive mentioned, the only way they can force indoctrination on you is through implants! Saren in ME1 was resisting the reapers idea by doubting it. The reapers..."up graded" him to stranghten this resolve. If you have read the book retribution then you know that this is true because of what happend to Paul Grayson. Also one last bit of evidence to this(besides the codex) is the cerberus troops, they were there own mind untill they were integrated...or implanted. This is forced indoctrination. If you were paying attention then you would know that the codex says that they have to weaken your mental health(by psychologically) through the limbic system and TRY get you to give in to there SUGGESTIONS!

All indoctrinated people have ended up changing there views inorder to survive or survive in a..."better" way.

Your definition of "forced indoctrination" is innacurate.

Unless someone chooses to sit in a reaper until their limbic system is compromised knowing about the EM and sonic signals then the changes to their neurochemistry are forced on them. 

Note that the limbic systems relation to survival is not a conscious one, its related to memory and reward systems. To say that people changed their opinions consciously due to worries about survival due to manuipulation of the limbic system is to connect unrelated things. The limbic system can increase fear, make you forget things, make it hard for you to think things through and reward you with a pleasure response. When wired correctly this helps us survive. When controlled by a reaper it can make us forget friends, loyalty and leave us in a state of terror when we even try to think about anything other that what is desired.

Once those limbic system changes have been forced on the subject they are vulnerable to suggestion. The suggestions can come from the signal itself or from spoken commands, the victim can try to resist, but if still within range of the signal the limbic system will be used to intensify the vulnerability of the victim, eventually resulting in mental degradation or capitulation. Ultimately a person is incapable of thinking any other way or they are simply incapable of thinking.

Implanting reaper tech can do many things to an individual; but the most likely result is more refined control of the victims mind. No longer relying on simple manupulation of the limbic system you could then send commands directly without the resulting neural degradation (for example the collectors still function individually but are unshakeably loyal and have no personal desires or motivations, but also no creativity) Implanting enables direct control, it sidesteps the need for indoctrination which is a specific, subtle but also slow and destructive process.

The codex itself states that

Codex
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

It explicitly draws a line between indoctrination (Em, Sonic) and the receiving of implants (Nanotech) conflating the two is not supported by the information given to us.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[Geneaux486]

1. READ the codex its states that they have to get you to except there SUGGESTIONS, if it was not then it would not say this. I guess you forgot about Saren's ordeal. I guess you forgot that ALL subjects think that they can survive by other means! This is suggestive tricks! IT SAYS THIS IN THE CODEX...LIMBIC SYSTEM! They all want to survive....it says that the limbic system is about survival. This is easy to understand dude!

 
Saren wasn't indoctrinated prior to the implants because Sovereign didn't want to indoctrinate him, he wanted Saren to have his wits about him.  There is no documented case in the story of someone resisting Indoctrination.  It alters your thought processes.

As for the rest of it, well, show me where in the codex it specifically states "indoctrination can be resisted".  Not implied, not suggested, outright stated, because anything less is subject to interpretation, and your problem seems to be that you consider your interpretations factual.

For what you know, you could also be wrong. A wounded, half-dead, desperate Shepard takes control of the Reapers with little to no information about what that means, except for the "but they will obey me" line.

And yes, the options are given by the crucible, of course they are, but they are presented by the damn kid, and he either doesn't exactly know what will happer or he freaking lies to you. YOU don't know what the crucible does, and you utterly believe everything that kid shaped blue light will tell you.

 
The same level of unknown exists for all three options.  You take the same risk in choosing any of them.  Why?  Because there's no other option.  If you don't activate the Crucible, the Reapers kill everyone anyway.

The guy has a point, most people change their plans according to what the kid says, others (like you) just follow their plan by according to what the kid tells you.

So people either change thier plans according to what the kid says or follow their plan according to what the kid says? 

Anyway, this is backwards.  The ones that change their plans are the ones that pick an option other than destroy.  It's not a matter of agreeing with the Catalyst, or accepting its bull**** "this is for your own good" logic, it's a matter of whether or not you're okay with committing genocide against the Geth.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 18 mai 2012 - 06:01 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Geneaux486 wrote...
Saren wasn't indoctrinated prior to the implants because Sovereign didn't want to indoctrinate him, he wanted Saren to have his wits about him.  There is no documented case in the story of someone resisting Indoctrination.  It alters your thought processes.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this either. I think it's pretty well established that Saren was indoctrinated via the slow path, for example, Matriarch Benezia, she had no implants and was high-functioning but definately indoctrinated but manages to push through it when weakened.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 18 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[incinerator950]

Mobius, she acts that way without Liara being present.

[Geneaux486]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
Saren wasn't indoctrinated prior to the implants because Sovereign didn't want to indoctrinate him, he wanted Saren to have his wits about him.  There is no documented case in the story of someone resisting Indoctrination.  It alters your thought processes.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this either. I think it's pretty well established that Saren was indoctrinated via the slow path, for example, Matriarch Benezia, she had no implants and was high-functioning but definately indoctrinated but manages to push through it when weakened and confronted by her daughter.

It's possible that Saren was indoctrinated via the slow path, but certainly not established.  I tend to believe that he thought helping Sovereign would spare his people in the beginning.  Maybe he was slightly influenced, but I tend to think his will was still his own through most of the Mass Effect story. 

[KevShep]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Iam only going to say this one more time about what indoctrination is, and this time actually read it.
 
Dr. Kenson was NOT forced into coming up with that idea. Do you know what the limbic system is dude?

It makes it harder to resist changing your values and ways of thinking in order to survive. Knowing the reaper threat is why is makes it easier to decome indoctrinated like is was with kenson/saren/tim/benezia or that hanar. They ALL tried to find a way to stop them and in the end they joined them...why is this? They were tricked!!!!!!!! Benezia even says this.

As Ive mentioned, the only way they can force indoctrination on you is through implants! Saren in ME1 was resisting the reapers idea by doubting it. The reapers..."up graded" him to stranghten this resolve. If you have read the book retribution then you know that this is true because of what happend to Paul Grayson. Also one last bit of evidence to this(besides the codex) is the cerberus troops, they were there own mind untill they were integrated...or implanted. This is forced indoctrination. If you were paying attention then you would know that the codex says that they have to weaken your mental health(by psychologically) through the limbic system and TRY get you to give in to there SUGGESTIONS!

All indoctrinated people have ended up changing there views inorder to survive or survive in a..."better" way.

Your definition of "forced indoctrination" is innacurate.

Unless someone chooses to sit in a reaper until their limbic system is compromised knowing about the EM and sonic signals then the changes to their neurochemistry are forced on them. 

Note that the limbic systems relation to survival is not a conscious one, its related to memory and reward systems. To say that people changed their opinions consciously due to worries about survival due to manuipulation of the limbic system is to connect unrelated things. The limbic system can increase fear, make you forget things, make it hard for you to think things through and reward you with a pleasure response. When wired correctly this helps us survive. When controlled by a reaper it can make us forget friends, loyalty and leave us in a state of terror when we even try to think about anything other that what is desired.

Once those limbic system changes have been forced on the subject they are vulnerable to suggestion. The suggestions can come from the signal itself or from spoken commands, the victim can try to resist, but if still within range of the signal the limbic system will be used to intensify the vulnerability of the victim, eventually resulting in mental degradation or capitulation. Ultimately a person is incapable of thinking any other way or they are simply incapable of thinking.

Implanting reaper tech can do many things to an individual; but the most likely result is more refined control of the victims mind. No longer relying on simple manupulation of the limbic system you could then send commands directly without the resulting neural degradation (for example the collectors still function individually but are unshakeably loyal and have no personal desires or motivations, but also no creativity) Implanting enables direct control, it sidesteps the need for indoctrination which is a specific, subtle but also slow and destructive process.

The codex itself states that

Codex
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

It explicitly draws a line between indoctrination (Em, Sonic) and the receiving of implants (Nanotech) conflating the two is not supported by the information given to us.

I respect your opinoin but I have to disagree here because the codex mentions "reprograming" through "suggestions". This means for a FACT that they have to trick your mind into accepting there will because a person aware of the reapers in there mind CANT be "reprogramed", I will tell you why. 

If a person is reprogramed against there will then they have lost there free will....period! If the reapers want an inside agent that has free will, (they make better agents) so that person CANT know about the reapers so they have to get in there minds through suggestions that they think are there own. This alows them to have free will but still obey the reapers! Its hard for a person to ignore all suggestions ether by there own mind or the reapers, this is what is making resisting indoctrination hard. As we seen from Saren, they can only force indoctrination on you through implants but even then Saren resisted at the end (even if it was only for a short time). 

In the last 10 minutes of the game we see Commander Shepard in a pyshical and psyhological weakened state! In the codex it mentions that they have to be in a "pyshical and psyhological" state to get them to be "conditioned" through the "Limbic System" making it easier to give into the reapers "suggestion". This is exactly what we see in the last 10 minutes with elements of shepards past dreams in it suggesting that the end is in fact a dream to get him indoctrinated.

[TobyHasEyes]

 I don't agree with the premise of 'failed the test', as we do not yet know how each will turn out

 For what it is worth I chose Destroy, not out of the sort of suspicions found in IT, but that I wasn't certain that I could trust the Catalyst avatar. Given that mistrust, it seemed like the greater risk (though not obviously or definitively) to pick the option that involved me grabbing two electrical wires and dying, or one that involved me jumping off a ledge into a giant beam.

 Whilst the mistrust made the whole end choice uncertain for my Shepard, he went for the one option that seemed to definately involve actually destroying something, which seemed to have a greater likelihood of harming/stopping the Reapers than any other option (taken purely on the merits of the action performed)

 But my main point is that for Shepard in that position there isn't an obvious right answer as to what you should do at all

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 18 mai 2012 - 11:21 .

[Mobius-Silent]

KevShep wrote...
If a person is reprogramed against there will then they have lost there free will....period! If the reapers want an inside agent that has free will, (they make better agents) so that person CANT know about the reapers so they have to get in there minds through suggestions that they think are there own. This alows them to have free will but still obey the reapers! Its hard for a person to ignore all suggestions ether by there own mind or the reapers, this is what is making resisting indoctrination hard. As we seen from Saren, they can only force indoctrination on you through implants but even then Saren resisted at the end (even if it was only for a short time). 

"Free will" is not a magic way to ensure someone is an effective agant. Mental aptitude and being able to read social cues is all thats needed. Rapid or aggressive indoctrination can cause enough neutral damage reduce their aptitude and cause them to fail to read social cues. Someone can have no "free will" and still be an effective agent as long as they aren't brain damaged.

Benezia was indoctrinated, against her will, she knew about it, thought she could resist and yet eventually she could think no other way and simply obayed Saren/Sovereign. Only her mental training allowed her to section of a little of her mind to stay aware of what she was doing, just enough to stop herself at the end.

She didn't have implants, she knew about indoctrination, she was indoctrinated against her will. I can't see how it can be any clearer.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 18 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[WinterCrow]

The other day I was thinking about all this "What's the right choice" thing and about a comment from the Bioware crew prior to the game release (Chris Priestly I believe?) that stated the cycle is the reaper's way of reproduction.

All of the choices are wrong. The only one that finishes the reapers is destroy, and even if you choose destroy it is unlikely that the galactic races won't use those dead reapers in order to try and restore the relays. We've already seen how even a dead reaper can passively indoctrinate people inside it, why wouldn't it happen again?

And both control and sytnhesis let them leave, with absolutely no guarantee that they will never come back (I'm sorry, I have no reason to believe control works the way the kid says, and I really don't think Shepard can be the same for all eternety. He's just a human).

The reaper threat does NOT end in ME3, we are never certain (other than that crappy message which, honestly, means nothing more than "buy our future DLC" and "finish missions").

Destroy + throwing them all into a black hole or Control + making them fly into some star somewhere, lol.

Modifié par WinterCrow, 18 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[Comguard2]

IM: "I can controlz the Reapers?"
Shep: "No, you can't control the Reapers!"
.
.
2 Minutes (literally!) later...
.
.
Ghost: "You can control the Reapers."
Shep: "I...don't know."

End

Quality Bioware Writing.

[Geneaux486]

I respect your opinoin but I have to disagree here because the codex mentions "reprograming" through "suggestions". This means for a FACT that they have to trick your mind into accepting there will because a person aware of the reapers in there mind CANT be "reprogramed".

Saying they reprogram the mind through "suggestions" doesn't automatically mean that your mind has to be tricked.  It doesn't say that those suggestions can be resisted, and we see no evidence in the story that they can be resisted.  Again, the doctors in the Arrival DLC took all the necesarry precautions against indoctrination when examining Object Rho and they still wound up indoctrinated. 

This is exactly what we see in the last 10 minutes with elements of shepards past dreams in it suggesting that the end is in fact a dream to get him indoctrinated.

 
Only it's not suggesting the end is a dream.  After Shepard dies the player is shown that things do happen the way the Catalyst says they would, the stargazer confirms it thousands of years later, and the game, outside of the narrative, spells out for us that Shepard ended the Reaper threat, so no, the ending is not a dream.

The reaper threat does NOT end in ME3, we are never certain (other than that crappy message which, honestly, means nothing more than "buy our future DLC" and "finish missions").

"Shepard became a legend by ending the Reaper threat" is canon, like it or not.  I hate that that's how they chose to convey the information to us, but regardless, the information is there, spelled out for us.

IM: "I can controlz the Reapers?"
Shep: "No, you can't control the Reapers!"
.
.
2 Minutes (literally!) later...
.
.
Ghost: "You can control the Reapers."
Shep: "I...don't know."

End

Quality Bioware Writing.

 
Shepard was right, TIM couldn't control the Reapers because he was indoctrinated.  Shepard could do it because that's one of the things the Crucible was designed to do, and Shepard was not indoctrinated.  Not a difficult concept to grasp.

[The Night Mammoth]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Shepard was right, TIM couldn't control the Reapers because he was indoctrinated.  Shepard could do it because that's one of the things the Crucible was designed to do, and Shepard was not indoctrinated.  Not a difficult concept to grasp.

It's certainly not something the Crucible was designed for. All it does is despense energy, the Citadel focuses it. The Catalyst gives you the options through which it can be focused.