1114 réponses à ce sujet

[ImmovableMover]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LOL @ Indoctrination Headcanon.

Thread should have ended here, 3 posts in.

[balance5050]

People who were indoctrinated - 654653546863

People who successfully controlled the reapers - 0

[balance5050]

ImmovableMover wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LOL @ Indoctrination Headcanon.

Thread should have ended here, 3 posts in.

Nope... speculations^_^

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

People who were indoctrinated - 654653546863

People who successfully controlled the reapers - 0

Cycles that failed to complete and deploy the crucible - all of them

Cycles that did - 0


The current cycle has a habit of doing what was previously considered impossible, especially a certain Commander Shepard.

[balance5050]

True Shepards don't forget the mission.

"We fight or we die."

[The Night Mammoth]

balance5050 wrote...

True Shepards don't forget the mission.

"We fight or we die."

Shepard says a lot of things. 

All are right. Hence why the ending is stupid, because some Shepard's give up on their morals. 

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

True Shepards don't forget the mission.

"We fight or we die."

No such thing as a "true" Shepard.

Some spare the Rachni Queen, others shoot Conrad in the foot. both are Shepard. 

[WinterCrow]

Geneaux486 wrote...
 
Only it's not suggesting the end is a dream.  After Shepard dies the player is shown that things do happen the way the Catalyst says they would, the stargazer confirms it thousands of years later, and the game, outside of the narrative, spells out for us that Shepard ended the Reaper threat, so no, the ending is not a dream.

The reaper threat does NOT end in ME3, we are never certain (other than that crappy message which, honestly, means nothing more than "buy our future DLC" and "finish missions").

"Shepard became a legend by ending the Reaper threat" is canon, like it or not.  I hate that that's how they chose to convey the information to us, but regardless, the information is there, spelled out for us.

IM: "I can controlz the Reapers?"
Shep: "No, you can't control the Reapers!"
.
.
2 Minutes (literally!) later...
.
.
Ghost: "You can control the Reapers."
Shep: "I...don't know."

End

Quality Bioware Writing.

 
Shepard was right, TIM couldn't control the Reapers because he was indoctrinated.  Shepard could do it because that's one of the things the Crucible was designed to do, and Shepard was not indoctrinated.  Not a difficult concept to grasp.

Firstly, the game message saying "Shepard became a legend" is pure bull****, like it or not. Play the game again, do everything wrong, don't gather enough EMS, then choose destroy. You will see a fancy cutsene that shows everything getting devastated. Then you got the stargazer scene and that crappy message.

Shepard became a legend... to whom? Everybody got annihilated! Yeah, canon, right? If that's "canon", as you like to label it, it can only mean Shepard never existed, and all we did is merely that: a legend, a tale.

And since you are such a literal person, can you quote one single sentence from the catalyst about Shepard not being indoctrinated? 'He could never control us, because we already controlled him. But you can'. He never states that Shepard is not indoctrinated, he lets you think that, Shepard might as well be indoctrinated. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

EDIT: Something I just borrowed from the IT post that is relevant here (talking about control being the best option).

[User Unschuld]

"I'd really like to see how this is best, with IT being wrong. I
mean, what the heck would the reapers DO, now that they're not reaping,
or indoctrinating? AI's could still potentially be created that become
hostile, because you did nothing to prevent further development (like
synthesis, and even that's debatable). The cycle must continue, then.
Unless you consider that the Reapers become the new galactic police. If
Shepard makes them play all nicey-nice, there's still going to have a
bit of a problem with this since they don't have husks anymore and
reapers are a little bit too big to fit through things like doors.

The
idea of Control at face value is just ludicrous. It doesn't solve any
problems besides the immediate one of getting the reapers out of Sol and
the other besieged systems."

Modifié par WinterCrow, 18 mai 2012 - 08:54 .

[TSA_383]

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

People who were indoctrinated - 654653546863

People who successfully controlled the reapers - 0

Cycles that failed to complete and deploy the crucible - all of them

Cycles that did - 0


The current cycle has a habit of doing what was previously considered impossible, especially a certain Commander Shepard.

This is never actually explicitly stated, just throwing it out there...

[jijeebo]

TSA_383 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

People who were indoctrinated - 654653546863

People who successfully controlled the reapers - 0

Cycles that failed to complete and deploy the crucible - all of them

Cycles that did - 0


The current cycle has a habit of doing what was previously considered impossible, especially a certain Commander Shepard.

This is never actually explicitly stated, just throwing it out there...

Doesn't Vendetta say that the Crucible spans back countless cycles, and that although every cycle adds to it's design, none have used it?

[Geneaux486]

It's certainly not something the Crucible was designed for. All it does is despense energy, the Citadel focuses it. The Catalyst gives you the options through which it can be focused.

You've got that backwards.  The Citadel is nothing more to the Crucible than a power source (as is confirmed by Vendetta, the plans for the Crucible were altered to incorporate the Citadel to power it).  The Crucible is what focuses and dispenses the energy, so yes, control is a function built into the Crucible, and the Catalyst merely tells you about it.

True Shepards don't forget the mission.

"We fight or we die." 

So IT people really are just looking for a way to pat themselves on the back extra hard, ain't they.  Like I said, you guys are pretty much acting like the hipsters of the Mass Effect fandom.  "Yeah, there are tons of clues that the ending isn't really happening, but they're really obscure, you've probably never noticed them."  And if Bioware retcons the game to make IT true, "I was picking destroy before it was the right choice."

All are right. Hence why the ending is stupid, because some Shepard's give up on their morals.

Every Shepard has different morals.  Mine, for instance, placed the safety of all the races of the galaxy ahead of petty revenge.  I picked control because it saved the most people, and that's acceptable.  Others ruthlessely sacrificed the Geth for their own vengeance, and that's just as acceptable (See?  The whole " obnoxiously second-guessing why people make their video game choices" thing goes both ways!).  My Shepard may not be the stone-cold-sumb*tch (all the time), but he does control a Reaper fleet now.  He'll probably make them act out Shakespear instead of killing people.  Show those elcor how Hamlet's really done.

Firstly, the game message saying "Shepard became a legend" is pure bull****, like it or not.

Right, just because it's stated in the game doesn't mean it's stated in the game .  You can pick and choose what you accept and reject all you want, I don't really care, but we're gonna call that what it is:  headcannon.   

Play the game again, do everything wrong, don't gather enough EMS, then choose destroy. You will see a fancy cutsene that shows everything getting devastated. Then you got the stargazer scene and that crappy message.

The cutscene shows us that every single thing in the universe gets devastated?  Every single location, every single living person, all of it?  No?  Then you don't know that everything gets devastated, and the fact that Shepard became a legend means that obviously someone was around to remember him (or her).  Like I said, it's canon, like it or not.  The information was presented to us in a lame way, but presented to us nonetheless.

And since you are such a literal person, can you quote one single sentence from the catalyst about Shepard not being indoctrinated? 'He could never control us, because we already controlled him. But you can'. He never states that Shepard is not indoctrinated, he lets you think that, Shepard might as well be indoctrinated.

I dunno how literal of a person I really am.  When the game spells out for you that you beat the bad guys, it's kinda hard to call that symbolism, misleading, or any of that other bull****.  But I digress.
You quoted the sentence where the Catalyst implies that Shepard isn't indoctrinated, so I'm not really sure why you thought this would work.  True he doesn't outright say "you're not indoctrinated", but when you combine that with the fact that we see the controlled Reapers withdraw from the fight, and the fact that the game tells us straight up that Shepard ended the Reaper threat, we can safely assume Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.  Like I said, you can ignore as much of the evidence as you want, I don't care one way or the other, but headcanon doesn't take precedent over what's outright stated in the game.

"I'd really like to see how this is best, with IT being wrong. I
mean, what the heck would the reapers DO, now that they're not reaping,
or indoctrinating? AI's could still potentially be created that become
hostile, because you did nothing to prevent further development (like
synthesis, and even that's debatable). The cycle must continue, then.
Unless you consider that the Reapers become the new galactic police. If
Shepard makes them play all nicey-nice, there's still going to have a
bit of a problem with this since they don't have husks anymore and
reapers are a little bit too big to fit through things like doors.

The
idea of Control at face value is just ludicrous. It doesn't solve any
problems besides the immediate one of getting the reapers out of Sol and
the other besieged systems."

"Shepard became a legend by ending the Reaper threat."  

The reason control solves problems is because for one thing it allows Shepard to make his will the Reapers' will.  Their change in purpose isn't that much a deal either, think about how relatively little time they actually spend reaping over the course of their existence.  The majority of thier time is spent doing nothing in dark space, so they'll probably just go back to doing that.  
For another thing, control saves the Geth and EDI, who are anomalous because they are the only known synthetics created in the history of all these cycles that are willing to coexist and even get along with organics.  In spite of the Quarians' many ****-ups, they accidentally got the synthetics right.  Wipe them out with destroy, organics start from scratch, the usual hostile synthetics are the most likely result.  What you've quoted there is some speculation into what could but probably won't happen being passed off as what will definetely happen. 











 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 18 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[BrotherCorvid]

Talogrungi wrote...

Straight to Destroy, didn't even blink.

The crucible was the test, and my Shepard passed.

I went through the entire trilogy with one goal in mind: destroy the Reapers. 

I remembered that Saren wanted Synthesis, and that was a lie.  

I remembered that The Illusive Man wanted Control, and that was a lie. 

Lesson learned: the Reapers lie.  A lot.  

They were probably lying about the Geth and EDI being wiped out as well.  Best to just destroy the Reapers and be done with the whole mess.

Modifié par RobotWalk, 18 mai 2012 - 10:31 .

[flippedeclipse]

I'll wholly admit, I failed the test. Two reasons though:
a) Destroy was the only option where you're told you'll kill your own friends, and I couldn't stand for that.
I was still in shock over what had happened since Shepard passed out on that magical floating platform and picked the simplest option.

[WinterCrow]

Geneaux486 wrote...

It's certainly not something the Crucible was designed for. All it does is despense energy, the Citadel focuses it. The Catalyst gives you the options through which it can be focused.

You've got that backwards.  The Citadel is nothing more to the Crucible than a power source (as is confirmed by Vendetta, the plans for the Crucible were altered to incorporate the Citadel to power it).  The Crucible is what focuses and dispenses the energy, so yes, control is a function built into the Crucible, and the Catalyst merely tells you about it.

True Shepards don't forget the mission.

"We fight or we die." 

So IT people really are just looking for a way to pat themselves on the back extra hard, ain't they.  Like I said, you guys are pretty much acting like the hipsters of the Mass Effect fandom.  "Yeah, there are tons of clues that the ending isn't really happening, but they're really obscure, you've probably never noticed them."  And if Bioware retcons the game to make IT true, "I was picking destroy before it was the right choice."

Firstly, the game message saying "Shepard became a legend" is pure bull****, like it or not.

Right, just because it's stated in the game doesn't mean it's stated in the game .  You can pick and choose what you accept and reject all you want, I don't really care, but we're gonna call that what it is:  headcannon.   

Play the game again, do everything wrong, don't gather enough EMS, then choose destroy. You will see a fancy cutsene that shows everything getting devastated. Then you got the stargazer scene and that crappy message.

The cutscene shows us that every single thing in the universe gets devastated?  Every single location, every single living person, all of it?  No?  Then you don't know that everything gets devastated, and the fact that Shepard became a legend means that obviously someone was around to remember him (or her).  Like I said, it's canon, like it or not.  The information was presented to us in a lame way, but presented to us nonetheless.

And since you are such a literal person, can you quote one single sentence from the catalyst about Shepard not being indoctrinated? 'He could never control us, because we already controlled him. But you can'. He never states that Shepard is not indoctrinated, he lets you think that, Shepard might as well be indoctrinated.

I dunno how literal of a person I really am.  When the game spells out for you that you beat the bad guys, it's kinda hard to call that symbolism, misleading, or any of that other bull****.  But I digress.
You quoted the sentence where the Catalyst implies that Shepard isn't indoctrinated, so I'm not really sure why you thought this would work.  True he doesn't outright say "you're not indoctrinated", but when you combine that with the fact that we see the controlled Reapers withdraw from the fight, and the fact that the game tells us straight up that Shepard ended the Reaper threat, we can safely assume Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.  Like I said, you can ignore as much of the evidence as you want, I don't care one way or the other, but headcanon doesn't take precedent over what's outright stated in the game.

"I'd really like to see how this is best, with IT being wrong. I
mean, what the heck would the reapers DO, now that they're not reaping,
or indoctrinating? AI's could still potentially be created that become
hostile, because you did nothing to prevent further development (like
synthesis, and even that's debatable). The cycle must continue, then.
Unless you consider that the Reapers become the new galactic police. If
Shepard makes them play all nicey-nice, there's still going to have a
bit of a problem with this since they don't have husks anymore and
reapers are a little bit too big to fit through things like doors.

The
idea of Control at face value is just ludicrous. It doesn't solve any
problems besides the immediate one of getting the reapers out of Sol and
the other besieged systems."

"Shepard became a legend by ending the Reaper threat."  

The reason control solves problems is because for one thing it allows Shepard to make his will the Reapers' will.  Their change in purpose isn't that much a deal either, think about how relatively little time they actually spend reaping over the course of their existence.  The majority of thier time is spent doing nothing in dark space, so they'll probably just go back to doing that.  
For another thing, control saves the Geth and EDI, who are anomalous because they are the only known synthetics created in the history of all these cycles that are willing to coexist and even get along with organics.  In spite of the Quarians' many ****-ups, they accidentally got the synthetics right.  Wipe them out with destroy, organics start from scratch, the usual hostile synthetics are the most likely result.  What you've quoted there is some speculation into what could but probably won't happen being passed off as what will definetely happen. 

It's like talking to a wall, really. You are fanatically literal when it's convenient, then you jump to a bunch of nonsensical assumptions when you wish to.

So the reapers go to black space forever, and do nothing, for-freaking-ever. No purpose, nothing. Fu** logic.

And you are never shown the entire space devastated. Right. You are shown how one wave kills everything in its path, then how the whole galaxy gets a wave for every relay. But let's assume those waves are different, for whatever reason, because this time what's stated in the game would go against my logic so I'd rather ignore it. But that line, out of the plot, shown to the PLAYER, talking about Shepard in third person and merely stating the reason why you can keep on playing is absolute canon and there is no way it's wrong in any way.

" who are anomalous because they are the only known synthetics created in
the history of all these cycles that are willing to coexist and even
get along with organics"

Not. True.

I'm tired of that "Shepard became a legend" sentence. Way too much. I'm tired of trying to explain it to you, but it seems you fail to understand what a role playing game is. What happens AS Shepard is totally different of what you are shown AS the player. The plot happens to Shepard, you take control of him, you are adressed as Shepard. That message you love so much adresses you as the player, third person for Shepard. It's a generic message, nothing more, "you beat the game, congratulations, game over" and it has no more relevance to the plot than that.

What happens AFTER the events of ME3, plot wise, is open for debate, fanfics or future games. It might or might not involve the reapers, and that message has no relevance at all in that sense. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. That message changes nothing.

Modifié par WinterCrow, 18 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[WinterCrow]

Accidental double post

Modifié par WinterCrow, 18 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[Geneaux486]

So the reapers go to black space forever, and do nothing, for-freaking-ever. No purpose, nothing. Fu** logic.

 
I merely said that's a possibility.  Yeah, I use assumptions.  I don't try to pass them off as facts.  You can't truthfully say the same.  My assumption lacking logic is your (incorrect) opinion.  We already know the Reapers do that sort of thing for the better part of each 50,000 years, spending only a few centuries active, so the whole "What are they gonna do with all this free time" anti-ending argument is bull****.  If it's a question that can be answered it's not an unanswerable question.

And you are never shown the entire space devastated. Right. You are shown how one wave kills everything in its path, then how the whole galaxy gets a wave for every relay.

And then we're shown thousands of years down the road that humanity at least has survived.  Now I know that contradicts your personal logic and is therefore invalid (going by the rules you're apparently laying down here), but seeing as how the game wasn't made specifically for you, that doesn't really matter.

" who are anomalous because they are the only known synthetics created in
the history of all these cycles that are willing to coexist and even
get along with organics"



Not. True.

Javik, Vendetta, and the Catalyst all tell us in some form or another about how every cycle goes to war with synthetics that want to kill them.  The Geth aren't violent in nature, driven to violence only in self defense, so they're anomalous to the pattern.  So yes, it is true, and this is another example of you dismissing information presented in the game as untrue basically because you say so.

I'm tired of that "Shepard became a legend" sentence. Way too much. I'm tired of trying to explain it to you, but it seems you fail to understand what a role playing game is.

There's nothing to explain.  It's information presented to us by the game, in the game, and you're choosing to ignore it.  I'm just calling it like it is.  I don't give a rat's *** if you're tired of it, blame Bioware for that, not me.  I'm not going to ignore a stated fact just because it bugs you.

What happens AS Shepard is totally different of what you are shown AS the player. The plot happens to Shepard, you take control of him, you are adressed as Shepard.

And at the end the game tells you what your Shepard accomplished.

That message you love so much adresses you as the player, third person for Shepard

Accepting that the information is ****ing there (because it is) != loving it. 

It's a generic message, nothing more, "you beat the game, congratulations, game over" and it has no more relevance to the plot than that.

But it didn't say "You beat the game", it said "Shepard became a legend by ending the Reaper threat" and it coincides with the other ending animations.  Why does it say that?  Because that's what ****ing happened XD
Its relevance to the plot is that it's telling you about the plot.

[Comguard2]

Geneaux486

"You've got that backwards. The Citadel is nothing more to the Crucible than a power source (as is confirmed by Vendetta, the plans for the Crucible were altered to incorporate the Citadel to power it). The Crucible is what focuses and dispenses the energy, so yes, control is a function built into the Crucible, and the Catalyst merely tells you about it."

Not true. Play the scene again - it is never stated what the Crucible does, the only thing the Reaper-King tells you is that "it opens up new possibilities".
New possibilities -> more than one. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

Maybe the three final choices were not even the original possibilities? We don't know.
"

[Pyro_Monkey]

Well I went for Synthesis, and was nice to see Joker and Edi together in the end, brought even closer together by their new... green stuff. I justified it in several ways. Firstly, maybe the kid is right, maybe organics are doomed to being wiped out by synthetics, though it seems unlikely. Secondly, Legion was my friend, he died so that all Geth could have a "soul", I can't murder them, and controlling the reapers? not a chance, no one can do that, and even if I could, what happens when that control is lost? Synthesis seems to offer a chance at a new future, can only hope it's real.

[Geneaux486]

Not true. Play the scene again - it is never stated what the Crucible does, the only thing the Reaper-King tells you is that "it opens up new possibilities".
New possibilities -> more than one. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

Maybe the three final choices were not even the original possibilities? We don't know.

Well first of all, we know for a fact that the Citadel is nothing more than a power source. Vendetta tells us that the original designs were modified to draw power from the Citadel, so we know that the three choices are originating from the Crucible, not the Citadel. Whatever roll the Citadel has in making them happen was the resut of the Crucible being designed to manipulate it. Secondly, the Catalyst even says the Crucible "changed" him, created new possibilities, that he couldn't "make happen" on his own.   The Crucible is what's doing the work.

So in short, yes, what I said before is true.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 19 mai 2012 - 09:25 .

[nicethugbert]

I expected Destroy to be predictable. I selected Synthesis out of curiosity. It's a game.

[balance5050]

 

[Hadeedak]

That's ok, in worst destroy we actually SEE Shepard destroy the whole Earth. As opposed to speculate depressing headcanons.

[balance5050]

Hadeedak wrote...

That's ok, in worst destroy we actually SEE Shepard destroy the whole Earth. As opposed to speculate depressing headcanons.

That red wave not only vaproized the Earth, but it would assumedly destroy all sentient life everywhere in the galaxy. You have to be a s*** commander to get that ending though. 

The "Shepard_Alive" ending is the best because it requires the most EMS.

Modifié par balance5050, 19 mai 2012 - 10:13 .

[Hadeedak]

Now, now. We don't KNOW it kills all sentient life. And it doesn't vaporize anything. What it does do... is set everything on fire.

Shepard_Alive also requires multiplayer to get, and is kind of an Easter egg. Now, you could easily guess Shepard can survive destroy, simply because you don't see Shepard die, just stagger back as the (very big) explosion hits.

Maybe there was a handy refrigerator.

[balance5050]

Hadeedak wrote...

Now, now. We don't KNOW it kills all sentient life. And it doesn't vaporize anything. What it does do... is set everything on fire.

Shepard_Alive also requires multiplayer to get, and is kind of an Easter egg. Now, you could easily guess Shepard can survive destroy, simply because you don't see Shepard die, just stagger back as the (very big) explosion hits.

Maybe there was a handy refrigerator.

No one walke out of the Normandy, and you clearly see the wave mainly affect only reapers and soldiers, that same red wave spreads through the galaxy and hit the Normandy, It appears that EVERYONE dies.

Check it out:

 

Modifié par balance5050, 19 mai 2012 - 10:29 .