1114 réponses à ce sujet

[BigGuy28]

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2. You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away with it.

[jpraelster93]

Destroy is the only way shepard lives why is this? explain

[balance5050]

You've been learning for three games that you shouldn't try to control the reapers because you will end up indoctrinated, so when an ACTUAL REAPER hands over the keys you accept? Let alone the whole non-sense that you HAVE TO DIE FIRST.

I just don't see how Shepard can be so pompous as accept that kind of power after preaching against it for so long, just seems very two-faced, flaky.

[balance5050]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2. You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away with it.

Pretty much, "Here's the vicious aliens that killed your friends and family, I figured you would rather let them live instead of destroy them, because you have no spirit."

[Hadeedak]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2. You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away with it.

Changed the MACHINES.

You can see a decent analogue for destroy/control in Legion's loyalty mission in 2. Rewrite is pretty much like control, destroy is ... like destroy, obviously.

And I'm not sure I need to commit more murder to avenge murders.

[Geneaux486]

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2. You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away with it.

And by picking destroy you commit genocide, so don't pat yourself on the back just yet.  You're focusing on the negatives of other choices while ignoring the negatives of the choice you made.  The crucible is making the best of a bad situation.  Shepard was chosen to use the Crucible.  It was the only way to stop the Reapers.  All three choices have a huge downside, especially destroy.

You've been learning for three games that you shouldn't try to control the reapers because you will end up indoctrinated, so when an ACTUAL REAPER hands over the keys you accept? Let alone the whole non-sense that you HAVE TO DIE FIRST.

I just don't see how Shepard can be so pompous as accept that kind of power after preaching against it for so long, just seems very two-faced, flaky.

The Reapers aren't handing you anything.  The Crucible achieves it.  Control and synthesis are a way to end the Reaper threat without killing one of your allied races.

[balance5050]

Evil Minion wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 Relevant:


||==========================================================||
||....................................................................................................................||
||     Psychopaths Unite! Kill TIM for wanting Control and then do it anyway!........................ ...||
|| ....................................................................................................................||
============================================================ 

I didn't kill TIM at all, and I was opposing him because he was wrecking everyone's personal junk all the time.

At the time I killed TIM, I didn't know I was about to be confronted with a GhostKid and discovery that "Destroy" was going to eliminate my friends. My morality doesn't allow for such things.

PsychoShep changes direction when new info is presented; therefore, not a psycho.

LOL! depends on the source of information. REAPER AI wouldn't be a very reliable source. Considering even EDI (a far less advanced AI) knows the usefullness of lying. She lied to save Joker from Cerberus, surely the reapers would lie to save their entire species no?

[Geneaux486]

balance5050 wrote...
LOL! depends on the source of information. REAPER AI wouldn't be a very reliable source. Considering even EDI (a far less advanced AI) knows the usefullness of lying. She lied to save Joker from Cerberus, surely the reapers would lie to save their entire species no?

And yet they didn't. 

[Hadeedak]

To some extent, the Reapers are still very alien. They don't explain themselves like the geth. We don't even know their precise relationship to our little friend the Catalyst, or how he controls them. In all 3 choices, you have to go in blind and believe what he's telling you is at least mostly true.

You can speculate why it works out. Maybe he's not a true AI, but a very advanced VI and unable to lie. Maybe the Crucible really did change him. Maybe he only exists to define the operating parameters of the reapers, with each one being independent, but unable to exceed those parameters. Maybe he controls each individually and personally. We don't know.

But it's what we have to work with.

[balance5050]

Geneaux486 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
LOL! depends on the source of information. REAPER AI wouldn't be a very reliable source. Considering even EDI (a far less advanced AI) knows the usefullness of lying. She lied to save Joker from Cerberus, surely the reapers would lie to save their entire species no?

And yet they didn't. 

Actually the reaper kid implied that the synthetics in my body would be destroyed along with "most technology you rely on." But I actually did survive, back in london no less.

PS. Also, your faith in the reapers is disturbing.

Modifié par balance5050, 20 mai 2012 - 05:43 .

[balance5050]

Hadeedak wrote...

To some extent, the Reapers are still very alien. They don't explain themselves like the geth. We don't even know their precise relationship to our little friend the Catalyst, or how he controls them. In all 3 choices, you have to go in blind and believe what he's telling you is at least mostly true.

You can speculate why it works out. Maybe he's not a true AI, but a very advanced VI and unable to lie. Maybe the Crucible really did change him. Maybe he only exists to define the operating parameters of the reapers, with each one being independent, but unable to exceed those parameters. Maybe he controls each individually and personally. We don't know.

But it's what we have to work with.

Actually the reapers can't stop talking about themselves in ME1 and 2, they just go on about how they are the "pinnacle of evolution" and how they need SHepards body for something. In "The Arrival" Harbinger even says that he wants you alive and that "Your mind will be mine", so they were either lying before or they are lying now.

[Hadeedak]

He implied. In most destroy endings, you die. And in the worst, you set the entire planet on fire.

He tells you in control and synthesis you're going to die.

And being back in London is.... speculations!

[jijeebo]

At the end of the day, if you pick Destroy you don't get to put Harbinger into a tutu and make him do the riverdance on the moon whilst juggling Destroyers and singing Poker Face.


That's what really matters. xD

[balance5050]

And now I leave to play D3....

[debbi8123]

jijeebo wrote...

At the end of the day, if you pick Destroy you don't get to put Harbinger into a tutu and make him do the riverdance on the moon whilst juggling Destroyers and singing Poker Face.


That's what really matters. xD

$less!  "Assuming direct control; we will find another way."

[Hadeedak]

jijeebo wrote...

At the end of the day, if you pick Destroy you don't get to put Harbinger into a tutu and make him do the riverdance on the moon whilst juggling Destroyers and singing Poker Face.


That's what really matters. xD

Yeeee!

[Geneaux486]

balance5050 wrote...
Actually the reaper kid implied that the synthetics in my body would be destroyed along with "most technology you rely on." But I actually did survive, back in london no less.

He said that all synthetic life would be destroyed, and that even Shepard was partly synthetic.  Both of those things are true.  He doesn't say "You will die" with destroy, and Shepard doesn't die.  There's no lie there, either directly or by omission.

PS. Also, your faith in the reapers is disturbing.

Observation that what the Catalyst says will happen does come to pass is not faith in the Reapers.  At the end of the game, no matter which option you pick, you're taking a leap of faith and hoping that the Crucible does what it's supposed to do, which is fine because there's no other choice.  Your diversionary fleets are being destroyed, your mission is the activate the Crucible at all costs regardless of the risks (as is stated multiple times in the campaign) and there's nowhere to go but forward.  Three ways to go forward, but forward nonetheless.  All options end the reaper threat, all options require some sort of sacrifice, all options represent organics taking back control of their own destiny from the Reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 20 mai 2012 - 08:38 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Geneaux486 wrote...
[Lots of stuff I agree with]
...all options represent organics taking back control of their own destiny from the Reapers.

This is the only part I disagree with, to me one of the problems with the end was that we were _granted_ one of three options by the boss of the reapers, It didn't feel like "taking" anything back

[WinterCrow]

@ Geneaux again, lots of assumptions, I don't see your reading comprehension being that good.

"The derelict-reaper was reduced to minimal functionality, not dead. Destroy renders them completely non-functional, therefore they won't be able to indoctrinate."

No confirmation about that, you simply don't know. And as far as I recall, that reaper was as dead as they are with the destroy option.

I wasn't able to save the Geth in my first playthrough, I commited no genocide at all when picked destroy, I destroyed the reapers only by sacrificing EDI (who I never liked, to be honest) and I'm not even sure if I did from what Jessica Merizan said.

In my second playtrhough I could save them, and I still picked destroy. As Garrus tells you prior to those moments, "Let a few millions die here, so many millions can survive over there" (don't recall the exact words). He is right. My Shepard would rather let the geth live, but given the whole situation, the only safe bet is destroy. I'd rather wipe out one race (which, btw, could even be rebuilt... kind of) than risk the whole galaxy by doing what the enemy leader wants me to do.

Btw, there's something funny about you. As I said before, you clearly don't understand in the least what roleplaying is. Even if only most of what the Catalyst says appears to be true (I still want to believe in IT anyways) that will never deny the fact that, as many have told you before, you ate the enemy's propaganda.

It's the guy in control of the reapers who offers you all the information about the options and, at that point, you have no reason to believe what he says is true. You make your choice by trusting the enemy "boss", it IS faith in the reapers.

[Geneaux486]

"The derelict-reaper was reduced to minimal functionality, not dead. Destroy renders them completely non-functional, therefore they won't be able to indoctrinate."

No confirmation about that, you simply don't know. And as far as I recall, that reaper was as dead as they are with the destroy option.

The Reaper's Mass Effect core was still functioning.  A pretty important part of the thing was still active, and it was still using various defense mechanisms, so no, it wasn't completely dead.  All of this stated and shown in the game.

In my second playtrhough I could save them, and I still picked destroy. As Garrus tells you prior to those moments, "Let a few millions die here, so many millions can survive over there" (don't recall the exact words). He is right. My Shepard would rather let the geth live, but given the whole situation, the only safe bet is destroy. I'd rather wipe out one race (which, btw, could even be rebuilt... kind of) than risk the whole galaxy by doing what the enemy leader wants me to do.

The point is that if you have a choice in the end, there are alternative ways to end the Reaper threat without sacrificing the Geth.  As for the Geth being rebuilt, they were unique in the grand scheme of things, being the first known synthetic race to not try to kill all organics.  It would be like trying to raise a human to be exactly like another human who died, some things just can't be replicated.  And again, none of the three choices involve doing what the Reapers want.  The Reapers want one thing:  To make everything into more Reapers, and bolster their own ranks.  One choice takes control away from them, and the other makes the horrors they've been practicing for the last several hundred billion years completely pointless.  The only option that follows the Reaper agenda is not activating the Crucible at all.  All of this stated and shown in the game.

Btw, there's something funny about you. As I said before, you clearly don't understand in the least what roleplaying is. Even if only most of what the Catalyst says appears to be true (I still want to believe in IT anyways) that will never deny the fact that, as many have told you before, you ate the enemy's propaganda.

Your paranoia and thick-headedness killed the Geth.  No but like I said, this "I made the right choice and won the game whereas you made the wrong choice and lost" bull**** goes both ways, and it's pointless, because in the context of the game, all three choices end the Reaper threat, so accepting the value of one choice over the others involves playing by rules that you've arbitrarily assigned that I have no reason to accept, nor does anyone else.

As for not understanding what role-playing is, unless role-playing involves ignoring stated in-game facts and replacing it with contradictory headcannon then talking down to other people for not accepting your contradictory headcannon (which seems to be your definition of it anyway), I understand it just fine.

It's the guy in control of the reapers who offers you all the information about the options and, at that point, you have no reason to believe what he says is true. You make your choice by trusting the enemy "boss", it IS faith in the reapers.

 
It's faith in the weapon you built, not in the Reapers.  As I've said, all three choices require a leap of faith, but your character simply has no other option aside from surrendering and not using the Crucible at all.  But that's nothing new, the Crucible was acknowleged as a necesarry risk through the entire game, the only thing that changes in the last five minutes in that regard is... well, nothing.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[KevShep]

Ive been away for a few days. Now Iam back but I have to still go to work so I will comment when I get back.

Modifié par KevShep, 21 mai 2012 - 04:09 .

[Geneaux486]

Hey man what's up.

[CuseGirl]

balance5050 wrote...
You've been learning for three games that you shouldn't try to control the reapers because you will end up indoctrinated, so when an ACTUAL REAPER hands over the keys you accept? Let alone the whole non-sense that you HAVE TO DIE FIRST.

I just don't see how Shepard can be so pompous as accept that kind of power after preaching against it for so long, just seems very two-faced, flaky.

The destroy option has flaws but the pure nonsensical basis of the synthesis and control endings are too much to bear.

[WinterCrow]

Lol, I never said I won the game and you lost, I said control and synthesis smell wrong, and awfully suspicious. They are too convenient for the starchild, and not a safe bet since the reapers still exist.

For me, the game ends when the credits roll, thats the end of Shepard's story. Both the stargazer scene and the final message are some kind of epilogue not directly related to Shepard's time, life or environment (that's what roleplay is about, you stop being Shepard once the credits roll, roleplay over). Thus, they're not something I'll take into account when evaluating my Shepard's actions, since they have nothing to do with him.

The only option that finishes reapers once and for all is destroy. The other two let them live. That's all I need to know. So long as reapers are alive they represent a threat to galaxy, or they will, eventually. That's what I believe, and that's something that has been stated in the game thousands of times. I'm not ignoring any evidence or in-game facts, I'm actually doing the opposite. The only difference is that I will never believe one single human, no matter whoever it is, can control such a thing.

Destroy is the only one finishing the reaper threat forever. That is fact. The other two are gambles. You'd rather take your chances in order to save the geth? Fine, I never said you lost, I said in a hypothetical future in the ME universe, reapers might return, or they might not. That is what you are trying to cantradic relying only in that post-credits message and the stargazer scene. That's what we argued about, you and me, not about losing or winning the game. I don't really know where you lost track of that.

Modifié par WinterCrow, 21 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[Geneaux486]

Lol, I never said I won the game and you lost, I said control and synthesis smell wrong, and awfully suspicious. They are too convenient for the starchild, and not a safe bet since the reapers still exist.

 

that will never deny the fact that, as many have told you before, you ate the enemy's propaganda.

Close enough to and just as stupid as saying you won and I lost.  You're still basically trying to pat yourself on the back extra hard for the choice you made, for reasons that are baseless and contradicted by the game itself.

Both the stargazer scene and the final message are some kind of epilogue not directly related to Shepard's time, life or environment (that's what roleplay is about, you stop being Shepard once the credits roll, roleplay over). Thus, they're not something I'll take into account when evaluating my Shepard's actions, since they have nothing to do with him.

They literally both directly state Shepard's name, so yes, they have everything to do with Shepard.  Dismissing them is your business, I don't care one way or the other, but don't try to argue that they're somehow not canon, because they are.  They're in the game, they state what happened, they're part of the story.  Destroy, control, and synthesis all end the Reaper threat.

That's what I believe, and that's something that has been stated in the game thousands of times.

Know what else is stated in the game?  That Shepard ended the Reaper threat, no matter which of the three choices you make.

 I'm not ignoring any evidence or in-game facts

Yes you are.

Destroy is the only one finishing the reaper threat forever. That is fact. The other two are gambles.

All three are gambles of the same calibur.  You don't know for sure when you choose destroy that it's going to do what the Catalyst claims it will do.  All three choices require the same leap of faith, no matter how you look at it.  All three choices end the Reaper threat.  That is a fact. 

I said in a hypothetical future in the ME universe, reapers might return, or they might not.

The game itself tells us that Shepard ended the Reaper threat.  That's actually more reliable than an in-game character saying it, because it's talking directly to you, the player.  The only thing that's hypothetical is a scenario in which Bioware retcons the story.

That is what you are trying to cantradic relying only in that post-credits message and the stargazer scene. That's what we argued about, you and me, not about losing or winning the game. I don't really know where you lost track of that.

 
I didn't lose track of anything.  First of all, the entire premise of this thread is "I won, you lost", hence why the OP falsely claims that anyone who didn't pick destroy "failed" a non-existant test.  As for you and me specifically, you're really not much different from the OP.  All this "the Reapers can still return in control and synthesis", "destroy is the only ending that isn't a gamble", "you bought into enemy propaganda" stuff, and you're gonna tell me you're not trying to insinuate that the choice you made is better than the other two?  'Cause that's sure what it looks like.  And is.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 mai 2012 - 10:08 .