1114 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2. You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away with it.

Changed the MACHINES.

You can see a decent analogue for destroy/control in Legion's loyalty mission in 2. Rewrite is pretty much like control, destroy is ... like destroy, obviously.

And I'm not sure I need to commit more murder to avenge murders.

If I was a past race that got destroyed by the reapers I would want someone to kill the reapers because I dont want to be this...thing called a reaper.

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 Relevant:


||==========================================================||
||....................................................................................................................||
||     Psychopaths Unite! Kill TIM for wanting Control and then do it anyway!........................ ...||
|| ....................................................................................................................||
============================================================ 

I didn't kill TIM at all, and I was opposing him because he was wrecking everyone's personal junk all the time, doing stuff that, ironically, made it impossible for him to ever take control.

Just like saren wanting to unite synthetics with organics, It was a reaper that got him to believe that. It turns out that saren was lied to. TIM is also lied to and the reapers make you accept ether one of there lies that we KNOW are wrong from seeing them.

[Hadeedak]

Eh?

[Geneaux486]

KevShep wrote...
Just like saren wanting to unite synthetics with organics, It was a reaper that got him to believe that. It turns out that saren was lied to. TIM is also lied to and the reapers make you accept ether one of there lies that we KNOW are wrong from seeing them.

Incorrect.  Saren was clinging to a belief that submission as cybernetic slave people to the Reapers would save them.  This was untrue because the Reapers only see organics as a means to make more of themselves.  The Illusive Man thought he could obtain control by mastering Reaper technology, when all it did was indoctrinate him.

The Crucible can both take control of the Reapers safely, and synthesize organic DNA.  Both of these are done independently of the Reapers, both end the Reaper threat.  The game states at the end "Shepard ended the Reaper threat" regardless of which choice you make.

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player.  Your argument has no foundation.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Not true. Play the scene again - it is never stated what the Crucible does, the only thing the Reaper-King tells you is that "it opens up new possibilities".
New possibilities -> more than one. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

Maybe the three final choices were not even the original possibilities? We don't know.

Well first of all, we know for a fact that the Citadel is nothing more than a power source. Vendetta tells us that the original designs were modified to draw power from the Citadel, so we know that the three choices are originating from the Crucible, not the Citadel. Whatever roll the Citadel has in making them happen was the resut of the Crucible being designed to manipulate it. Secondly, the Catalyst even says the Crucible "changed" him, created new possibilities, that he couldn't "make happen" on his own.   The Crucible is what's doing the work.

So in short, yes, what I said before is true.

Remember that the crucible was made from the technology BASED off of the mass relays. Sovereign said that by useing the relays that our society and technology develop along the paths that the reapers desire. Knowing that the place where you make your choices are on the citadel and not the crucible( since there is no way that the organics made the part where your choices are at on the citadel), it could mean that they let the races add to the crucible for some unknown purpose.  There is no way that the crucible plans survived ALL of the cycles even with indoctrinated agents that knew of it to not be some sort of reaper plan.

We dont know yet what the crucible does.

[Geneaux486]

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player. Your argument has no foundation.

[Hadeedak]

At face value... The crucible ends the cycle. At the very least, the Reaper cycle, and possibly synthetics wiping out all life, too. It's also the most complete it's known as being in this round. Hard to know how much has been lost and remade of it over the milenia of destruction.

As to what the past races want, assuming there's any remnant of them left under the reaper programming, it seems a bit arrogant to decide they all want death, utterly and permanently, for the only thing that remains of their species. Not that we really know how it works.

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Just like saren wanting to unite synthetics with organics, It was a reaper that got him to believe that. It turns out that saren was lied to. TIM is also lied to and the reapers make you accept ether one of there lies that we KNOW are wrong from seeing them.

Incorrect.  Saren was clinging to a belief that submission as cybernetic slave people to the Reapers would save them.  This was untrue because the Reapers only see organics as a means to make more of themselves.  The Illusive Man thought he could obtain control by mastering Reaper technology, when all it did was indoctrinate him.

The Crucible can both take control of the Reapers safely, and synthesize organic DNA.  Both of these are done independently of the Reapers, both end the Reaper threat.  The game states at the end "Shepard ended the Reaper threat" regardless of which choice you make.

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct.
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale.
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player.  Your argument has no foundation.

your arguments dont have any at all because it is an ending about speculation meaning that somthing is up with the endings.

Saren tells you that he wants to unite organics and machines. Saren- "Organics and machines intertwined, united as one. I am the pinical of evolution, With the strangth of both and the weakness of nether" This IS synthesis man!

Also your assuming that the endings are not a dream. There is alot of evidence to suggest indoc but no evidence that it is at face value because it contradicts the entire direction of the series.

[Geneaux486]

your arguments dont have any at all because it is an ending about speculation meaning that somthing is up with the endings.

Saren tells you that he wants to unite organics and machines. Saren- "Organics and machines intertwined, united as one. I am the pinical of evolution, With the strangth of both and the weakness of nether" This IS synthesis man!

Also your assuming that the endings are not a dream. There is alot of evidence to suggest indoc but no evidence that it is at face value because it contradicts the entire direction of the series.

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player. Your argument has no foundation.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mai 2012 - 06:53 .

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

At face value... The crucible ends the cycle. At the very least, the Reaper cycle, and possibly synthetics wiping out all life, too. It's also the most complete it's known as being in this round. Hard to know how much has been lost and remade of it over the milenia of destruction.

As to what the past races want, assuming there's any remnant of them left under the reaper programming, it seems a bit arrogant to decide they all want death, utterly and permanently, for the only thing that remains of their species. Not that we really know how it works.

to sum it up...We will make our own future by OUR own means. Its safer to just kill the reapers. Thisway we know that our destiny is ours.

[Hadeedak]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The IT elitist thread is still going. Wow.

To be fair, it's mostly been the three of us... But yeah, I did a doubletake when I saw it on my screen again. Better than a couple dozen threads, I guess.

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player. Your argument has no foundation.

Well you dont expect them to just point out that it was an illusion at the end if they are going for speculations do you?

[Hadeedak]

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

At face value... The crucible ends the cycle. At the very least, the Reaper cycle, and possibly synthetics wiping out all life, too. It's also the most complete it's known as being in this round. Hard to know how much has been lost and remade of it over the milenia of destruction.

As to what the past races want, assuming there's any remnant of them left under the reaper programming, it seems a bit arrogant to decide they all want death, utterly and permanently, for the only thing that remains of their species. Not that we really know how it works.

to sum it up...We will make our own future by OUR own means. Its safer to just kill the reapers. Thisway we know that our destiny is ours.

It is SAFER, yes. And ruthless, pragmatic, and destructive.  And people wonder why destroy's the red option.... :innocent:

[Geneaux486]

KevShep wrote...
Well you dont expect them to just point out that it was an illusion at the end if they are going for speculations do you?

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player. Your argument has no foundation.

A not-so-subtle hint that I'm pretty much done arguing in circles with you.  Go pat yourself on the back for picking destroy in private, nobody cares that you think you're outsmarting the ending.  I reject your headcannon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

At face value... The crucible ends the cycle. At the very least, the Reaper cycle, and possibly synthetics wiping out all life, too. It's also the most complete it's known as being in this round. Hard to know how much has been lost and remade of it over the milenia of destruction.

As to what the past races want, assuming there's any remnant of them left under the reaper programming, it seems a bit arrogant to decide they all want death, utterly and permanently, for the only thing that remains of their species. Not that we really know how it works.

to sum it up...We will make our own future by OUR own means. Its safer to just kill the reapers. Thisway we know that our destiny is ours.

It is SAFER, yes. And ruthless, pragmatic, and destructive.  And people wonder why destroy's the red option.... :innocent:

Did you not see anderson as an "evil" guy and TIM as a "good" guy? There is clearly something wrong here!...Oh look, its the head reaper or catalyst if you will, Hes the one that is telling me all of this backwards stuff!

[KevShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
Well you dont expect them to just point out that it was an illusion at the end if they are going for speculations do you?

To sum up:
-The Crucible is not a Reaper construct (passed down and modified by countless cycles of organics, built by an Alliance team, connected to the Citadel by the Alliance, and wielded by Shepard).
-It can destroy the Reapers, control them, or strengthen organic DNA on a galactic scale (The player is shown this happening in the resulting cinematic after Shepard has already died or lost conciousness).
-We are given repeated evidence that all three choices result in a victory for organics and the defeat of the Reapers (we see from an audience-neutral perspective, after Shepard's stream of conciousness has ended, that all three choices have the predicted effects, we learn from the stargazer thousands of years down the road that it truly did happen, and the game tells the player directly after all of that that Shepard ended the Reaper threat).

All of this is both stated and shown in the game at multiple points, both within the context of the story, and outside of the story stated directly to the player. Your argument has no foundation.

A not-so-subtle hint that I'm pretty much done arguing in circles with you.  Go pat yourself on the back for picking destroy in private.  I reject your headcannon.

There is plenty of subtle hints pointing the other direction dude. Alot!

[liggy002]

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

At face value... The crucible ends the cycle. At the very least, the Reaper cycle, and possibly synthetics wiping out all life, too. It's also the most complete it's known as being in this round. Hard to know how much has been lost and remade of it over the milenia of destruction.

As to what the past races want, assuming there's any remnant of them left under the reaper programming, it seems a bit arrogant to decide they all want death, utterly and permanently, for the only thing that remains of their species. Not that we really know how it works.

to sum it up...We will make our own future by OUR own means. Its safer to just kill the reapers. Thisway we know that our destiny is ours.

It is SAFER, yes. And ruthless, pragmatic, and destructive.  And people wonder why destroy's the red option.... :innocent:

Did you not see anderson as an "evil" guy and TIM as a "good" guy? There is clearly something wrong here!...Oh look, its the head reaper or catalyst if you will, Hes the one that is telling me all of this backwards stuff!

Don't fear the Reaper... that leads to choices like Synthesis and Control.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The IT elitist thread is still going. Wow.

BigGuy28 wrote...

Here is what I get from the people that choose synthesis or control:

1. You are easily manipulated. You listened to enemy propaganda and fell for it.

2.
You just let the reapers get away with the murder of trillions of
people and the extinction of thousands of species. I sure hope murder is
no longer a punishable crime after this or your Shepard will look like a
hypocrite for letting the worst mass murderers in the universe get away
with it.

Says the person who commited genocide in his/her ending.

BUT THERE'S NO PROOF THAT THE GETH DIED!!!!!

Yeah, and there's no proof Synthesis turns everybody into husks either. But most IT believers are willing to believe that, with less in-game proof.

If the sacrifice of a single species can end the reapers for good then I would take that sacrifice every single time. Besides, we can always rebuild the geth.

[Hadeedak]

Well, Liara went revenge crazy. And Tali advocates killing geth. Jack takes care of a bunch of kids. It IS possible for someone who's a 'paragon' to support a 'renegade' option. And Anderson never knew that control was actually a viable option.

It's not good and evil. It's more idealist and pragmatist.

[SeanBahamut]

My playthrough (and only one on ME3) was Paragon and I picked Destroy. I was disapointed to see the ending colour wasnt blue though ;-) Still think it was the right choice, regardless of IT.

If I ever played ME3 again with my other 2 characters I would still choose destroy every time.

Modifié par SeanBahamut, 22 mai 2012 - 07:04 .

[Apple Lantern]

Went to synthesis on my first playthrough. Turns out I really should start thinking things through more on the first go (On this same play through, I gave TIM the human reaper). If IT were true, I'm not that happy to say I failed the first time.

[Geneaux486]

If the sacrifice of a single species can end the reapers for good then I would take that sacrifice every single time. Besides, we can always rebuild the geth.

But you can end the Reaper threat for good without sacrificing anyone, that's the point of the choice.  And no, you can't rebuild the Geth, not anymore than you can raise a human child to be exactly like someone you knew who died.  The Geth were an anomaly to the cycle of synthetic races, empathetic, moral, and ethical, and their existence is the very thing that makes the Reapers' extinction cycle obsolete.  That can't simply be recreated.

 If IT were true, I'm not that happy to say I failed the first time.

 
It's not.  Worst case scenario for your choice is that Bioware retcons the story to make IT true, in which case you simply change your approach to compensate for the change in the story.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 mai 2012 - 07:09 .

[KevShep]

Hadeedak wrote...

Well, Liara went revenge crazy. And Tali advocates killing geth. Jack takes care of a bunch of kids. It IS possible for someone who's a 'paragon' to support a 'renegade' option. And Anderson never knew that control was actually a viable option.

It's not good and evil. It's more idealist and pragmatist.

The game makes a point to show you that its TIM that is the "good" one by a belief that we have come to know is wrong. The Prothean VI tells you that the reapers trick people into thinking that they can control the reapers and become indoctrinated. The VI says that this happends with every cycle. The reapers are tricking you now.