1114 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimrodell]

TSA_383 wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Well, if the kid's lying about the geth dying, then...

Yeah, if we can't trust anything he says, then we've got NOTHING to go on. You just made the endings worse.

If the writers go back on the Geth ect. being killed in Destroy, I may lose faith in BW all together. Without it Destroy became the obvious choice the game had been pushing you towards.

And seriously - if they do decided that the Geth ect. live, it wont be an in-game thing, it'd be something a writer announces online. I don't want to have completed a game only to find out much later that the ending choices have been retconned just because a lot of people SPECULATED that starbrat might be lying.

This, people, is what indoctrination looks like.
Someone who will angrily protest the idea of destroying the reapers because of something a shiny, mysterious being who claims to control the reapers told them.

*applause*

You'd be right if Catalyst's nature was known to humans, if Catalyst would think and behave like humans, if Catalyst's very nature is human... but it's not. You view Catalyst as if it were villain from Earth seeking world domination. I'll say this once more, when Jahveh approached Noah saying to him that he'll purge the Earth because the cycle from Adam to Noah went horribly wrong, did Noah went all arrogant claiming that he actually knows and understands Jahveh, did he perceive him as mass murderer or did he actually try to survive and through his own survival save the human kind on Earth? Can you claim then that Noah was actually immoral man because he didn't inform others and stood up to Jahveh by saying - nah, you're lying because I can totally see through you and understand your very being and thought? Those are archetypes we're dealing with when we're talking about last Crucible scenes - not shallow comic book/cartoons villain understanding.

Once again, the entire premise is wrong and it's not your fault or anyone's fault here - it's how the ending was presented itself, too little knowledge, too wide possiblity of co-creation between writers and those who are playing this story. It's something that I teach my students when I'm lecturing on 5 layers of every literary work or any artistic work - there's a creator but the consumer becomes a co-creator. Depending on how many details creator provided, co-creator will create more of them to fill in those undetermined spots. Read a bit Roman Ingarden and learn about this phenomena and then you'll know - unless BioWare states otherwise, your ending is the correct one for you and some other ending is correct for other player - there are no wrong endings yet, dear, because in all 3 you get the same outcome that states - Shepard has become a legend by stopping the Reaper threat. No need for arrogant assumptions toward other choices - and as you can see, BioWare's unskilled usage of this very story mechanism (they really wanted deep ending, but it was unskillful play with 'undetermined spots') actually bit them in the arse.

[rachellouise]

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

[Geneaux486]

The point of the choices isn't to test Shepard. We clearly see from an audience-neutral perspective after the fact that the effects of each choice are what the Catalyst said they were (and the Catalyst isn't the one giving you the choices, the design of the Crucible does that). Shepard's goal through the games was to destroy the Reapers, yes, but now the question he must ask himself is should he do so at the cost of his synthetic friends and allies? So basically, you failed nothing by not picking destroy.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 09 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[PlumPaul93]

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

[Demoiselle]

TSA_383 wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Well, if the kid's lying about the geth dying, then...

Yeah, if we can't trust anything he says, then we've got NOTHING to go on. You just made the endings worse.

If the writers go back on the Geth ect. being killed in Destroy, I may lose faith in BW all together. Without it Destroy became the obvious choice the game had been pushing you towards.

And seriously - if they do decided that the Geth ect. live, it wont be an in-game thing, it'd be something a writer announces online. I don't want to have completed a game only to find out much later that the ending choices have been retconned just because a lot of people SPECULATED that starbrat might be lying.

This, people, is what indoctrination looks like.
Someone who will angrily protest the idea of destroying the reapers because of something a shiny, mysterious being who claims to control the reapers told them.

*applause*

Ok.

Listen.

What I am trying to say, is NOT that I disaprove of the destroy ending. I'm not 'angrily protesting' against people choosing it. It's interesting. I have picked it in some of my games. I like it, and the fact that it has consequences.

But I like it FOR these consequences. I like the fact that they make it not the obvious ending to choose that it would be otherwise. Which is why I don't want it to be RETCONNED.

I don't believe something a shiny, mysterious being tells me. I'm metagaming and using my head - I'm assuming that BW wouldn't give us the ending choices as presented by a being who we are clearly supposed to believe, only for them to secretly intend for it to only have one 'true' ending without any actual hint of this in tge game. Because THAT would be screwing the player.

If the Geth were going to survive, this should have been revealed in-game. It should not be revealed, months after release, when a writer decides to pander to people who want destroy as a perfect option, and the Catalyst to be a complete liar, ONLINE. Because most people who play the game won't look online for more information on 'what the ending really was'. They'll accept it as the game is.

Now I'd really prefer it if you could stop insisting that me saying that anything other than destroy isn't the WRONG choice is the same as me saying that destroy is wrong. Because I don't think that, and it's not what I'm saying.

[Geneaux486]

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

Meh, I just made a habit of costing him more than time and money.

[eddieoctane]

Nimrodell wrote...
*snip*

You'd be right if Catalyst's nature was known to humans, if Catalyst would think and behave like humans, if Catalyst's very nature is human... but it's not. You view Catalyst as if it were villain from Earth seeking world domination. I'll say this once more, when Jahveh approached Noah saying to him that he'll purge the Earth because the cycle from Adam to Noah went horribly wrong, did Noah went all arrogant claiming that he actually knows and understands Jahveh, did he perceive him as mass murderer or did he actually try to survive and through his own survival save the human kind on Earth? Can you claim then that Noah was actually immoral man because he didn't inform others and stood up to Jahveh by saying - nah, you're lying because I can totally see through you and understand your very being and thought? Those are archetypes we're dealing with when we're talking about last Crucible scenes - not shallow comic book/cartoons villain understanding.

Once again, the entire premise is wrong and it's not your fault or anyone's fault here - it's how the ending was presented itself, too little knowledge, too wide possiblity of co-creation between writers and those who are playing this story. It's something that I teach my students when I'm lecturing on 5 layers of every literary work or any artistic work - there's a creator but the consumer becomes a co-creator. Depending on how many details creator provided, co-creator will create more of them to fill in those undetermined spots. Read a bit Roman Ingarden and learn about this phenomena and then you'll know - unless BioWare states otherwise, your ending is the correct one for you and some other ending is correct for other player - there are no wrong endings yet, dear, because in all 3 you get the same outcome that states - Shepard has become a legend by stopping the Reaper threat. No need for arrogant assumptions toward other choices - and as you can see, BioWare's unskilled usage of this very story mechanism (they really wanted deep ending, but it was unskillful play with 'undetermined spots') actually bit them in the arse.

How'd we go from stopping the Reapers to the flood myth that is common to EVERY religion and culture across the planet? And not all of them invlve the god(s) wanting to cleanse the planet or warning anyone about the impending doom.

[The Angry One]

I'm sorry, that's crap, Nim. Pure crap.
I don't care what the Catalyst is. I will not judge a being by what they are, I will judge them by their actions, and by it's ACTIONS the Catalyst is a genocidal maniac, who sugar-coats it's actions with platitudes.

Tell me something. If the Catalyst is so beyond us, so above us, so unaccountable, WHY is it so dishonest about what it does? Why does it play verbal gymnastics to hide the fact that it's KILLING people? If it's understanding is so beyond us, why hide what it does? Why not simply state that what it does is murder?
Because it knows it's wrong, it knows it's unjustifiable, so it hides it and calls it "ascension".

Please. Also, not to bring religion into this, but the story of Noah's Ark is deeply immoral. Genocide is never justified under any circumstance for any reason. I don't care who the perpetrator is.

[Demoiselle]

Geneaux486 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

Meh, I just made a habit of costing him more than time and money.

This is what sates me every time we can't tell TIM just to be straight with Shep or s/he walk.

Me: AT THE END OF THIS GAME I WILL STEAL YOUR FREAKIN' SHIP TIMMY!!!

[balance5050]

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

 that's actually pretty hilarious.

[Hadeedak]

Demoiselle wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

Meh, I just made a habit of costing him more than time and money.

This is what sates me every time we can't tell TIM just to be straight with Shep or s/he walk.

Me: AT THE END OF THIS GAME I WILL STEAL YOUR FREAKIN' SHIP TIMMY!!!

THAT'S FOR LETTING MY SOLE SURVIVOR ONLY YELL AT MIRANDA ONCE.

Though by choosing control... My Shepard does what he couldn't. And does it right. And does it better. And saves everyone. The best revenge. :innocent:

[TSA_383]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sorry, that's crap, Nim. Pure crap.
I don't care what the Catalyst is. I will not judge a being by what they are, I will judge them by their actions, and by it's ACTIONS the Catalyst is a genocidal maniac, who sugar-coats it's actions with platitudes.

Tell me something. If the Catalyst is so beyond us, so above us, so unaccountable, WHY is it so dishonest about what it does? Why does it play verbal gymnastics to hide the fact that it's KILLING people? If it's understanding is so beyond us, why hide what it does? Why not simply state that what it does is murder?
Because it knows it's wrong, it knows it's unjustifiable, so it hides it and calls it "ascension".

Please. Also, not to bring religion into this, but the story of Noah's Ark is deeply immoral. Genocide is never justified under any circumstance for any reason. I don't care who the perpetrator is.

This, essentially.
Using the old testament as a source for reasonable characters acting in a well thought out way isn't terribly reliable.
Makes a great source of psychopaths, mind. Lots of people who kill each other to appease various deities.
But please, let's not get too far down that road. I made this thread for lively debate, possibly some trolling, not holy war.

And sure, we know relatively little of the catalyst. But it controls the reapers, and when referring to the reapers, it refers to them as "we". It is clearly very much a part of them, and therefore you'd have thought we've seen this being kill and manipulate enough of your friends and allies to not blindly trust what it says...

[Hadeedak]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sorry, that's crap, Nim. Pure crap.
I don't care what the Catalyst is. I will not judge a being by what they are, I will judge them by their actions, and by it's ACTIONS the Catalyst is a genocidal maniac, who sugar-coats it's actions with platitudes.

Tell me something. If the Catalyst is so beyond us, so above us, so unaccountable, WHY is it so dishonest about what it does? Why does it play verbal gymnastics to hide the fact that it's KILLING people? If it's understanding is so beyond us, why hide what it does? Why not simply state that what it does is murder?
Because it knows it's wrong, it knows it's unjustifiable, so it hides it and calls it "ascension".

Please. Also, not to bring religion into this, but the story of Noah's Ark is deeply immoral. Genocide is never justified under any circumstance for any reason. I don't care who the perpetrator is.

If it's using reapers as storage banks for 'genetic memory' or similar, and if the many minds of the Reapers have anything to do with the races used to make them, it may not see its actions as such.

Not to say I sympathize with it -- clearly wiping civilizations out is BAD-- but I do think it's an interesting character that I probably would have liked if its entrance into the series wasn't 5 minutes of vague exposition, a set of damned if you do, damned if you don't choices, and the ROLL CREDITS, YOU WON.

[moater boat]

I did, I was so confused at the end (lack of sleep was a big part of it). I wanted to hear my options again, but I couldn't. I didn't remember what was on the left and what was on the right. I walked down the middle to take a closer look, and next thing I know Shep suddenly sprints into the beam, jumps in, and starts disintigrating. I was like "WTF just happened"

[Geneaux486]

Tell me something. If the Catalyst is so beyond us, so above us, so unaccountable, WHY is it so dishonest about what it does? Why does it play verbal gymnastics to hide the fact that it's KILLING people? If it's understanding is so beyond us, why hide what it does? Why not simply state that what it does is murder?
Because it knows it's wrong, it knows it's unjustifiable, so it hides it and calls it "ascension".

The Catalyst isn't dishonest about what it does, the way it presents what the Reapers do is how that thing genuinelly views the process, which is even worse. It's one of many reasons why I'd pick destroy in a heartbeat if it wouldn't wipe out the Geth and EDI as well.
As for the religion being immoral/psychopathic thing, not cool, but I'll respect the OP's wishes and not go down that road.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 09 mai 2012 - 10:11 .

[Demoiselle]

Hadeedak wrote...

Demoiselle wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

 don't play ME2. Most of that is doing what TIM wants.

Meh, I just made a habit of costing him more than time and money.

This is what sates me every time we can't tell TIM just to be straight with Shep or s/he walk.

Me: AT THE END OF THIS GAME I WILL STEAL YOUR FREAKIN' SHIP TIMMY!!!

THAT'S FOR LETTING MY SOLE SURVIVOR ONLY YELL AT MIRANDA ONCE.

Though by choosing control... My Shepard does what he couldn't. And does it right. And does it better. And saves everyone. The best revenge. :innocent:

*Eye twitch* I think Shepard was supposed to be too distracted by the cheerleaders... assets, too remember Akuze.

Y'see Timmy? I don't even WANT Miranda. I'm taking her just to spite you.

And that is the best argument for choosing control I've heard yet, giving the finger to Timmy.

[The Angry One]

Hadeedak wrote...

If it's using reapers as storage banks for 'genetic memory' or similar, and if the many minds of the Reapers have anything to do with the races used to make them, it may not see its actions as such.

Not to say I sympathize with it -- clearly wiping civilizations out is BAD-- but I do think it's an interesting character that I probably would have liked if its entrance into the series wasn't 5 minutes of vague exposition, a set of damned if you do, damned if you don't choices, and the ROLL CREDITS, YOU WON.

That does not change the fact that it's murder, and that the victims are essentially traumatised before being made part of the Reaper.
Furthermore, what about all the people they kill? What about races like the Quarians they exterminate outright? What about all the races they turn into mindless thralls like the Keepers and Collectors? What about the synthetic species who they turn into monsters then dispose of?

There is far more going on here than "ascension" and the Catalyst knows it, yet it sweeps it under the rug because it KNOWS what is doing is wrong.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Catalyst isn't dishonest about what it does, the way it presents what the Reapers do is how that thing genuinelly views the process, which is even worse. It's one of many reasons why I'd pick destroy in a heartbeat if it would wipe out the Geth and EDI as well.

It may have deluded itself, sure. But it's deluded itself because what it's done is wrong and it doesn't matter what kind of being you are.
It refuses to accept that what it does is murder, and that says all I need to know. It is the same justification used by maniacs for all of human history.

As for the religion being immoral/psychopathic thing, not cool, but I'll respect the OP's wishes and not go down that road.

I never said religion. I said that story. It's not even accepted as anything other than a tale written by men even by most believers.

[TSA_383]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Tell me something. If the Catalyst is so beyond us, so above us, so unaccountable, WHY is it so dishonest about what it does? Why does it play verbal gymnastics to hide the fact that it's KILLING people? If it's understanding is so beyond us, why hide what it does? Why not simply state that what it does is murder?
Because it knows it's wrong, it knows it's unjustifiable, so it hides it and calls it "ascension".

The Catalyst isn't dishonest about what it does, the way it presents what the Reapers do is how that thing genuinelly views the process, which is even worse. It's one of many reasons why I'd pick destroy in a heartbeat if it would wipe out the Geth and EDI as well.
As for the religion being immoral/psychopathic thing, not cool, but I'll respect the OP's wishes and not go down that road.

Just to clarify in case I badly offend someone, I was just saying there's a great abundance of brutality in the old testament - I didn't intend it as a statement to reflect on religion as a whole, and given that basically nobody in the world still practices what's in the old testament I'm hopefully not offending too many people. I do have controversial opinions on a lot of mainstream religion but here wouldn't be the place to voice them.

Agreed with you on why that makes the Catalyst even worse, by the way.

Modifié par TSA_383, 09 mai 2012 - 10:14 .

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
There is far more going on here than "ascension" and the Catalyst knows it, yet it sweeps it under the rug because it KNOWS what is doing is wrong.

There's nothing to suggest that the Catalyst thought it was doing anything wrong, or that it was trying to cover anything up.  I think the Catalyst is very genuine with you, which makes it more of a bastard.

Just to clarify in case I badly offend someone, I was just saying there's a great abundance of brutality in the old testament - I didn't intend it as a statement to reflect on religion as a whole, and given that basically nobody in the world still practices what's in the old testament I'm hopefully not offending too many people.

For whatever it's worth it didn't offend me (I'm more than used to it), I just think it's a bummer when discussions delve into badmouthing spiritual beliefs (theist or otherwise) when they don't need to.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 09 mai 2012 - 10:19 .

[Karulo]

timj2011 wrote...

Well, if you only count the first playthrough as the choice...then I didn't choose anything because I was so confused that I was being presented a Deus Ex ending that I just stumbled forward and accidentally chose synthesis

Yeah, that was my experience too.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
There is far more going on here than "ascension" and the Catalyst knows it, yet it sweeps it under the rug because it KNOWS what is doing is wrong.

There's nothing to suggest that the Catalyst thought it was doing anything wrong, or that it was trying to cover anything up.  I think the Catalyst is very genuine with you, which makes it more of a bastard.

Like I said, it may have deluded itself. But the fact remains it is lying about "ascension".
Shepard could literally point in any direction and show the Catalyst people who aren't being "ascended".

My point in all this is yes, we can judge the Catalyst, because it's actions are reprehensible.
No being, no matter how intelligent, long lived or wise will ever have the right to treat sapient species the way the Catalyst does. Period.

[Demoiselle]

The Angry One wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

If it's using reapers as storage banks for 'genetic memory' or similar, and if the many minds of the Reapers have anything to do with the races used to make them, it may not see its actions as such.

Not to say I sympathize with it -- clearly wiping civilizations out is BAD-- but I do think it's an interesting character that I probably would have liked if its entrance into the series wasn't 5 minutes of vague exposition, a set of damned if you do, damned if you don't choices, and the ROLL CREDITS, YOU WON.

That does not change the fact that it's murder, and that the victims are essentially traumatised before being made part of the Reaper.
Furthermore, what about all the people they kill? What about races like the Quarians they exterminate outright? What about all the races they turn into mindless thralls like the Keepers and Collectors? What about the synthetic species who they turn into monsters then dispose of?

There is far more going on here than "ascension" and the Catalyst knows it, yet it sweeps it under the rug because it KNOWS what is doing is wrong.

And this is one of the main problems with introudcing the Catalyst so late. What the Catalyst has done makes it seem riddiculous for Shep to take it for its word after about ten lines of dialogue if you think about it. Realisticlly, you wouldn't trust it. So you can't look at it that way - you have to look at it as a flawed plot device, which it is.

The Catalyst probably DOESN'T have some scheme where if you choose synthesis or control it has in effect won, because looking at it from a meta-perspective, the writers just WOULDN'T do that to two of the three endings and then expect you to figure that out for yourself.

But looking at it in-game, the late stage it was introduced and little information we have on it doesn't do anything but fuel speculation that says otherwise.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
My point in all this is yes, we can judge the Catalyst, because it's actions are reprehensible.

On that, we agree.

[incinerator950]

Legion referred to a Reaper as transcended flesh.

Naturally I forgot what the definition of transcend and ascend are.