263 réponses à ce sujet

[Volc19]

Honestly, I would have to say I prefer Javik. I like how he's basically the only one on the ME3 squad who isn't eager to please Shepard. This is something (among many things) that ME3 lacked in comparison to the other games of the trilogy. In ME1 you have Wrex who you need to either kill or have stand down because he disagrees with what you are trying to accomplish, in ME2 Zaeed is a grumpy old badass, Grunt tries to kill you the moment you meet him, Samara would curbstomp you if you did something that went against her code, Morinth is a serial killer, and Jack wouldn't think twice about killing you if you crossed her before romancing her or getting her loyalty.

Only Javik holds this distinction in ME3. He will clash with Shepard and other main characters, and he isn't apologetic about any of it. He supports tricking the krogan, he wants Legion tossed into space, and he hasn't the slightest positive opinion of Liara.

While the Revenant is also a very well defined and likeable character, he is surrounded by well defined and likeable characters, making it a non-trait in the story. He would be an amazing squadmate alongside the cast of ME3. Although, I suppose if it came down to the two characters being judged in a vacuum, the Revenant is only slightly inched out by Javik. Javik's personality just resonates more with how I like characters. If Shep finds his memory shard and downloads his personality into a Glyph-esque drone, which flies about the ship, going on about primitives I would be a happy man.

Modifié par Volc19, 03 janvier 2013 - 12:33 .

[DarkPrinceRevan]

fainmaca wrote...

gearseffect wrote...
I've only recently started reading ITU and just finished chapter 5.

Youjust answerd something I'd been wondering, which is if Liara becomes a squad mate in it. Looks like she don't. Seems you're using her as I'm doing in BP&A which is as a source of information the Shadow Broker. Though I have plans to send her in the squad more than one time.

BTW the prison part of ITU, Jacob and Ronald Taylor was just great. You took a character I hated and made me like him... a little, gave him a redeeming aspect. The dialogue between him and Jacob in the prison cell and Jacob's overall dialogue is spot on. Most your characters are spot on. 

That's the role she serves at the moment, but anything could change. I have plenty planned for Liara.

I liked the bit about Ronald. Very satisfying to write. I felt like his story needed a chance at redemption, but then again I feel that way about most characters.

Got a question for you guys. well, those who've got beyond a certain  point in the story- Revenant or Javik? Which do you prefer?

Let's get some character discussion going here, peeps! Which ones do you like, and which need working on? Are there any that make you skim over the story to avoid? are there some you could read about more than once?

reading this chapter made me remember i can tolerate and actually like liara when shes not shoved down my throat every waking moment lol. that and the fact she handled a cave in better then and a kodaik crashing in her vincinty *cough* priority mars *cough*. oh and she actually has armor under her lab coat instead of well just a latex suit. good to know shes still alittle combat ready even thou shepard almost made her a blue mess when he hit that corner.

as for javik and the revenant....mmm idk. the revenant definitely has a better into into to the story to me because i kind of feel like me3 just went "hey we found a prothean on eden prime that we missed two games ago". personality wise javik has the benefit of having lived a life before meeting shepard and he is unquestinably more of a troll then the revenant and fills the roll of a hk-47 in the squad. the revenant was more or less a blank slate when he met shepard and hes been slowly coming into his own based on his interactions with the crew. i think whats benefiting him now is the surge of emotions and that anger thats been missing until this mission and how close it hits to home. if javik represents the vengence of the protheans then the revenant is becoming their tranquil fury.

oh and i almost forgot to mention, looks like the face to face meeting with another reaper is leaving shepard with some...."headaches":bandit:

Modifié par DarkPrinceRevan, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:27 .

[fainmaca]

Hmmm... Very interesting. I may have a few things in mind to improve the Revenant now. Also got some plans in place for whichever asset Shepard chooses to save (vote ends tonight, people!).

@Volc19: I think I see what you're saying. Javik seemed a little more... individualistic? He stood out more from the rest of the squad. I guess that's a problem I have with such a large squad: making them individually memorable gets to be a challenge after a certain point. I mean, even the whole 'not there to please Shepard' thing would kind of fade into the background a bit with my squad, seeing as all the characters you mentioned in addition to people like Jorall make for quite a cast of very independant personalities. Gotta keep Shepard in some form of control over his team. But I can look to new ways to really make him stand out from the others, see if I can't improve on him somehow.

Keeping the character discussion going, is there anyone in the story you flat out don't like? A new character you don't think belongs on the squad? Maybe a returning character I've short-changed?

@DPR: Naw, man. Shep's just hung over, honest!

I'm almost finished with the next chapter of Resistance, and I've arranged something that you guys might find to be quite cool. A little easter egg, if you like. Hopefully will have chapter 6 uploaded tonight when I close the poll down. First person to leave a review on it will get to choose the Squad Leader for the next side mission (biotic-type squaddies only).

One final thing: I'm changing the dynamic of the Side Missions again, and I swear this will be the last time. I'm removing the training aspect of it. The squaddies won't gain experience anymore. Its just complicating things a little too much for a written work. If this were a game (HINT HINT, Bioware!), then I'd implement it, but for the purposes of writing the story I will simply assign one aspect of Tech, Biotics or Combat Leadership that the squaddie in question is proficient in for the endgame, depending on what makes sense (so Tali and Legion will obviously be good tech specialists. Grunt... not so much.)

What does this mean going forward? I will continue to write the side missions, but purely as an opportunity to explore the story from alternate points of view, and as a chance to give some characters a little more room to grow. But now you don't need to plan out who will be proficient in what.

This will make my job a little easier, and I don't think it'll remove anything from the story to do this.

[fainmaca]

The Poll is now closed!

End result of the vote:

Save the Scientists- 12

Leave the Scientists- 3

I guess the scientists get to live to fight another day. I'll get to work on the next chapter pronto. I think you're gonna like it!

Also, no Resistance today. Work got in the way and slowed me down. I'll do my best to hurry up.

[gearseffect]

fainmaca wrote...

gearseffect wrote...
I've only recently started reading ITU and just finished chapter 5.

Youjust answerd something I'd been wondering, which is if Liara becomes a squad mate in it. Looks like she don't. Seems you're using her as I'm doing in BP&A which is as a source of information the Shadow Broker. Though I have plans to send her in the squad more than one time.

BTW the prison part of ITU, Jacob and Ronald Taylor was just great. You took a character I hated and made me like him... a little, gave him a redeeming aspect. The dialogue between him and Jacob in the prison cell and Jacob's overall dialogue is spot on. Most your characters are spot on. 

That's the role she serves at the moment, but anything could change. I have plenty planned for Liara.

I liked the bit about Ronald. Very satisfying to write. I felt like his story needed a chance at redemption, but then again I feel that way about most characters.

Got a question for you guys. well, those who've got beyond a certain  point in the story- Revenant or Javik? Which do you prefer?

Let's get some character discussion going here, peeps! Which ones do you like, and which need working on? Are there any that make you skim over the story to avoid? are there some you could read about more than once?

Sorry been a long time since I was in here I have a tendancy to not read much fanfic because sometimes I'll come across something simalar to something I was doing and I'll discard it because it'll make me feel like I was just coping something. I know it's a horrible thing to suffer from and it's all a mindset.

I stopped reading when I found out you had Gavin Archer in there, I have plans for him mostly due to the fact that in ME3 I really felt like the man was trying to redeem himself and I was never more appaled at the autodialogue my Shep spewed forth and how he treated a character then with Gavin. 

With my fics I'm intending to bring back all the minor characters provided they lived, and Ronold did not live in my playthroughs, I always took the ren option there. 

I haven't gotten to the Revenant or Javik dude but from what I skimmed through if he's fully Javik just with a different name I'd rename him Javik, but if he's not got that dark empiralistic outlook right away like he had in ME3 or something about the character is off I'd keep it Revenant due to him being created before when got our hands on ME3 or I'm asuming that's when you created him. 

Anyway I'll be back in latter tonight and get caught up on the stuff in this thread I haven't been here for, just wanted to kinda adress your reply when I first saw it.

[DarkPrinceRevan]

fainmaca wrote...

Hmmm... Very interesting. I may have a few things in mind to improve the Revenant now. Also got some plans in place for whichever asset Shepard chooses to save (vote ends tonight, people!).

@Volc19: I think I see what you're saying. Javik seemed a little more... individualistic? He stood out more from the rest of the squad. I guess that's a problem I have with such a large squad: making them individually memorable gets to be a challenge after a certain point. I mean, even the whole 'not there to please Shepard' thing would kind of fade into the background a bit with my squad, seeing as all the characters you mentioned in addition to people like Jorall make for quite a cast of very independant personalities. Gotta keep Shepard in some form of control over his team. But I can look to new ways to really make him stand out from the others, see if I can't improve on him somehow.

Keeping the character discussion going, is there anyone in the story you flat out don't like? A new character you don't think belongs on the squad? Maybe a returning character I've short-changed?

@DPR: Naw, man. Shep's just hung over, honest!

I'm almost finished with the next chapter of Resistance, and I've arranged something that you guys might find to be quite cool. A little easter egg, if you like. Hopefully will have chapter 6 uploaded tonight when I close the poll down. First person to leave a review on it will get to choose the Squad Leader for the next side mission (biotic-type squaddies only).

One final thing: I'm changing the dynamic of the Side Missions again, and I swear this will be the last time. I'm removing the training aspect of it. The squaddies won't gain experience anymore. Its just complicating things a little too much for a written work. If this were a game (HINT HINT, Bioware!), then I'd implement it, but for the purposes of writing the story I will simply assign one aspect of Tech, Biotics or Combat Leadership that the squaddie in question is proficient in for the endgame, depending on what makes sense (so Tali and Legion will obviously be good tech specialists. Grunt... not so much.)

What does this mean going forward? I will continue to write the side missions, but purely as an opportunity to explore the story from alternate points of view, and as a chance to give some characters a little more room to grow. But now you don't need to plan out who will be proficient in what.

This will make my job a little easier, and I don't think it'll remove anything from the story to do this.

mmmm Falere probably, she hasnt had enough screentime to really establish herself in the squad as more than Samara's last daughter and well you know taking down a reaper lol. after she gets over some of unceratainty and comes out of her shell abit im sure she has louds of questions about culture and what not since shes not under constant watch the matriarchs. and she should have some interesting stories about her stay in the monastery. plus she has the capacity for bravery/jack level recklessness when your establishing character moment is to jump on reaper with the intent on fighting it

[fainmaca]

I've just uploaded a new chapter to Mass Effect: Resistance. Chapter 6: Erebus.

I'm very excited about this chapter. It includes a cameo appearance by the very talented Gavin Dunne, famous as the creator of the music of Miracle of Sound. Many thanks to Mr Dunne for the permission to use his likeness in this manner.

As part of the cameo, Major Dunne will occasionally utter lines that are references to Miracle of Sound's brilliant lyrics. See if you can spot them all!

I'll get to work on chapter 52 of ITU right away. See you at the next update!
Fainmaca Out.

[fainmaca]

The lack of response to Chapter 6 of Resistance is a little surprising, and a little worrying. Did anybody here get a chance to read it? Do I need to change something?

[DarkPrinceRevan]

fainmaca wrote...

The lack of response to Chapter 6 of Resistance is a little surprising, and a little worrying. Did anybody here get a chance to read it? Do I need to change something?

I liked it, just read chapters 3 to 6. ****s gonna hit the fan real hard about Tina thou. First she gets Agent Smithed then gets a Levithan level mind screw by the Reapers.

Other then the Indoctrination Theory Documentary I never really thought of how the process of indoctrination is carried out in alot of detail, gives me food for thought

Modifié par DarkPrinceRevan, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[fainmaca]

DarkPrinceRevan wrote...
I liked it, just read chapters 3 to 6. ****s gonna hit the fan real hard about Tina thou. First she gets Agent Smithed then gets a Levithan level mind screw by the Reapers.

Other then the Indoctrination Theory Documentary I never really thought of how the process of indoctrination is carried out in alot of detail, gives me food for thought

I've always pictured it as a very slow and insidious process. I loved how it was portrayed in Retribution, I believe it was, when grayson gets indoctrinated. There's a scene where he's fighting it, and he's decided the best thing to do is run from anywhere civilised, put himself where he can't hurt anybody. Then it shows the Reapers drawing the thoughts from his mind, pulling them like worms from a clump of mud, until finally he's thinking so much about what matters to him that he figures the only way to keep it safe is to go to it. In no time, he's gone from contemplating taking his own life to keep the Reapers from using him for evil to heading straight for civilisation, bringing the cthulhu machines with him.

I love that subtle, poisonous quality the process can have. so much more refined and elegant than 'raaagh zombies!'. Its what I'm trying to bring to the table with the Thralls in my story (plus a few other characters that I'm saying nothing more about).

[fainmaca]

By the way, what did you think of the Miracle of Sound cameo? Did you pick up on any of the lyric Easter Eggs?

[DarkPrinceRevan]

fainmaca wrote...

By the way, what did you think of the Miracle of Sound cameo? Did you pick up on any of the lyric Easter Eggs?

i think hes like a badass Donnely from the future mixed with John Conner lol....and i couldnt spot the easter egg again, i never did figure out the one about the hamster:unsure:

oh and i forgot to mention how refreshing it is to see varied combat instead of simply shooting husks day and night lol. i couldnt understand how we ended up fighting only 6 enemy types controlled by the reapers if you dont count the geth or cerberus in me3

Modifié par DarkPrinceRevan, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:34 .

[fainmaca]

DarkPrinceRevan wrote...
i think hes like a badass Donnely from the future mixed with John Conner lol....and i couldnt spot the easter egg again, i never did figure out the one about the hamster:unsure:

The hamster was a reference to an Achievement Hunter video showing where to find the hamster in ME3. In the video, Geoff and Gavin decided to name the hamster 'Davis'. Therefore the hamster in ITU is named Davis as a nod to that video.

You'll find the MoS easter eggs wherever the Major has dialogue. I'll usually try to weave a lyric or two into what he says. In Chapter 6, you'll find some lyrics from 'Shooter Guy' and 'Redemption Blues'.

oh and i forgot to mention how refreshing it is to see varied combat instead of simply shooting husks day and night lol. i couldnt understand how we ended up fighting only 6 enemy types controlled by the reapers if you dont count the geth or cerberus in me3

Agreed. Even though i know that ME1 and 2 had mostly colour-swapped enemies, the context of them made it feel like I had a lot of variety. Mercs, pirates and hired guards may have all walked, talked and fought the same, but they all fell into different categories in my head.

I think one of the big let-downs for me enemy wise was that we never actually fought a Reaper. We fought their retarded cousins, but even then the victory was kind of delivbered to us instead of earned.

[DarkPrinceRevan]

fainmaca wrote...

The hamster was a reference to an Achievement Hunter video showing where to find the hamster in ME3. In the video, Geoff and Gavin decided to name the hamster 'Davis'. Therefore the hamster in ITU is named Davis as a nod to that video.

You'll find the MoS easter eggs wherever the Major has dialogue. I'll usually try to weave a lyric or two into what he says. In Chapter 6, you'll find some lyrics from 'Shooter Guy' and 'Redemption Blues'.

Agreed. Even though i know that ME1 and 2 had mostly colour-swapped enemies, the context of them made it feel like I had a lot of variety. Mercs, pirates and hired guards may have all walked, talked and fought the same, but they all fell into different categories in my head.

I think one of the big let-downs for me enemy wise was that we never actually fought a Reaper. We fought their retarded cousins, but even then the victory was kind of delivbered to us instead of earned.

Now i feel worse cause i thing ive seen that Achievement Hunter video but completely missed the link.

lol yea i agree enemies all had the same thing to say but they were rememorable. But whats sad is we fought less enemies then we did in ME1. The Brutes felt like less of a threat then a pissed of Krogan charging at you with their regenerating shields and health. The Nemesis feels like an inferior Geth Hopper scrambling for cover all the time. I see a red laser in ME3 i think "Great another Nemesis who wants a headshot" and in ME1 when i see a red laser i think "Crap wall, floor, or ceiling which way did it go". The first time i really remember my Geth Hopper encounter is when they ambused me in that staircase on Feros, i think it was, and i was always scrambling to get a bead on one before i lost track on him. The fight was short but it instant set a tone for intense Geth ambushes the whole mission.

I blame the loss of the ability to carry Heavy Weapons in battle on some of my combat letdowns. The one time they throw us a bone with the Cain we instant screw up a Hades Cannon's day. Which brings up another dropped plot point, killing the minature Reaper on Rannoch suggest the Reapers have a moment of vulnerablity during the charging sequence thats only used briefly on the Hades Cannon and never brought up as a viable strategy again.

If anything we couldve had another mission like the Derelict Reaper and actually go inside and fight our way through a Reaper and destroy its Core.

Modifié par DarkPrinceRevan, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .

[Splub]

I've just started reading this and I really like it so far, good work!

[domainfighter]

man with the kind of reations I am seeing I am going to start reading this......looking foward to it

Modifié par domainfighter, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:10 .

[fainmaca]

DarkPrinceRevan wrote...
Now i feel worse cause i thing ive seen that Achievement Hunter video but completely missed the link.

No worries. Absolutely nobody commented on it, so I think it slipped by pretty much everyone's radar.

lol yea i agree enemies all had the same thing to say but they were rememorable. But whats sad is we fought less enemies then we did in ME1. The Brutes felt like less of a threat then a pissed of Krogan charging at you with their regenerating shields and health. The Nemesis feels like an inferior Geth Hopper scrambling for cover all the time. I see a red laser in ME3 i think "Great another Nemesis who wants a headshot" and in ME1 when i see a red laser i think "Crap wall, floor, or ceiling which way did it go". The first time i really remember my Geth Hopper encounter is when they ambused me in that staircase on Feros, i think it was, and i was always scrambling to get a bead on one before i lost track on him. The fight was short but it instant set a tone for intense Geth ambushes the whole mission.

The first time I encountered those geth was on Therum, I believe. I remember running into that combat just outside the dig site a few times before I figured out a workable tactic that didn't end in fiery deathiness. Shooters are not really my forte

I blame the loss of the ability to carry Heavy Weapons in battle on some of my combat letdowns. The one time they throw us a bone with the Cain we instant screw up a Hades Cannon's day. Which brings up another dropped plot point, killing the minature Reaper on Rannoch suggest the Reapers have a moment of vulnerablity during the charging sequence thats only used briefly on the Hades Cannon and never brought up as a viable strategy again.

Reminds me of the smudboy vids ripping ME3 apart. 'CAINS, OR FLEETS. Shepard, tell them!'

If anything we couldve had another mission like the Derelict Reaper and actually go inside and fight our way through a Reaper and destroy its Core.

That would have been cool. Frankly, i would have been happy if we'd even got a chance to fight one proper Reaper. We've been building up to this for a whole franchise, just give us one, come on!

When you think about it, compared to canon, ITU Shepard is racking up quite a kill count. The Forerunner, the Architect, the Leviathan, and those are just the ones the Normandy or the Commander himself are responsible for. Frankly it feels a lot more like my sShep is actually fighting a war. All Bioware's Shepard is getting is the bad end of an ass-kicking.

Splub wrote...

I've just started reading this and I really like it so far, good work!

Thanks! I've had a lot of fun so far, and things are only going to get bigger and better as the plot advances.

domainfighter wrote...

man with the kind of reations I am seeing I am going to start reading this......looking foward to it

Be sure to let me know what you think! I'm always on the lookout for advice to help me do better.

[DarkPrinceRevan]

@ Fainmaca

Im a big shooter fan but ME1 was really clunky on the combat mechanics so I dont blame anybody for having a tough time with some of the fights that got abit dicely.

I really wanted Harbringer to come to the forefront as the big bad of the series and have a big climatic showdown but the crucible neuters him horribly.

And yeah canon Shepard has been stonewalled by the plot not to be able to be a real creditable threat to the Reapers as a whole.

So Fainmaca what other games and stories if any do you use in your brainstorming process for ideas to implement in ITU

[fainmaca]

DarkPrinceRevan wrote...

@ Fainmaca

Im a big shooter fan but ME1 was really clunky on the combat mechanics so I dont blame anybody for having a tough time with some of the fights that got abit dicely.

Well to be fair the only game I'd played before this that had a gun in it was Star Wars Battlefront, so I wouldn't know a good shooter if I trod on it.

So Fainmaca what other games and stories if any do you use in your brainstorming process for ideas to implement in ITU

Hmm. A bit of a tough question for me. A lot of the time when I find myself mirroring existing stories it happens subconsciously. My brain must be holding onto a lot of these ideas and themes, and occasionally blurts one out that really fits with the narrative.

Well I take a lot inspiration from Star Wars. Not really for the plot, but more for the emotions it can invoke. I also draw inspiration from Doctor Who, particularly when it deals with larger, more abstract ideas than simple sci-fi.

When I wrote the Battle of Tuchanka, a lot of inspiration for that came from the Lord of the Rings films, especially for Wrex's badass speech. The fight between Shepard and Jack was partly based on a scene from Red vs Blue that really struck me (when Tex is in the ring fighting Maine, York and Wyoming. While writing that scene I listened to the song 'On Your Knees' by Jeff Williams a lot), and partially based on some songs by P!nk (I like her music, so sue me).

I like to think that most of my ideas are original, or at least original for me, but I know that my ideas of what makes a good story are very much shaped by mainstream sci-fi like Star Wars, Trek, Gate and so on. But I think part of what helps me to write like I do is the fact that Mass effect was a setting fullof potential. There was a hell of a lot of work put into its foundations, the planets, the cultures, the people, and it makes it really easy to make a fairly simple plot interesting.

[DarkPrinceRevan]

Heh I love Star Wars Battlefront 2. Good times, good times.

When I wrote or atleast plot out ideas I usually pull from games I'm playing. Most of the time it usually involves action sequences because I can play through and get a feel for what I want to do. Ive pulled ideas from the Halo, Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Dead Space, Call of Duty and most recently Deus Ex Human Revolution. And theres probably a host of imagery from reading TV Tropes, Manga, and other media that worms its way into my thought process.

As much as I've come to love the ME Universe in the last year, I mean literally like a year ago I stumbled into ITU and read that before I actually even interested in the games so thanks for introducing me to the world of ME lol. But what i was saying before my moment of nostalgia, I like the futuristic setting of ME that you can explore I also like blending other elements of different game universes to expand the experience.

Like take the Lazarus Project, I liken Miranda's role involved in it to Dr. Halsey in the Spartan Project. Not really all the similar but my mind draws that comparison and it gives me ways to interpret her methodology when it comes to justifying some of the stuff Cerberus has done in the name of advancing humanity.

Or a more subtle one is anti-biotic sentiment and how far people are willing to go not to rely on biotics. I think a fun application to that is technology centered around man portable mass effect generators to create pseudo biotics lol. I get this idea from the wrist mounted tractor beam in Dead Space for hauling around small to human size objects. and the stasis modual which is exactly that stasis. I remember on Purgatory that multiple large big mass effect generators employed to break up prison riots without getting directly involved. And I would attribute this technology to Cerberus since the seemed to have a hand in keeping Jack on ice and would fund the place.

Plus when you introduced jet boots in ITU and before I saw there application by Cerberus in ME3, I thought of the jet boots like how there presented in Dead Space 2. That and Jack would look awesome in the Hacker Rig from Dead Space with her boots and jet boots. lol

Oh and I've gone back and actually read the Cerberus Weekly and found some absurdly good stories that shouldve got more attention in the games that really couldve shined if done right.

[fainmaca]

Sorry guys. I know the latest chapter's quite late already, but I'm gonna need a bit more time, guys. A friend just passed away this evening. I'll get writing again very soon, okay?

[Renleech]

The first time i saw jet boots was in Star Trek 5. In that movie,Mr. Spock defied gravity like no other,except Dead Space.

Modifié par Renleech, 02 février 2013 - 08:59 .

[fainmaca]

Renleech wrote...

The first time i saw jet boots was in Star Trek 5. In that movie,Mr. Spock defied gravity like no other,except Dead Space.

That scene on the cliff always makes me chuckle. I love it when sci-fi explores stuff we view as normal and routine, but from an alien perspective that can make it seem ludicrous. It helps make our humanity feel a bit more special.

[fainmaca]

Hey guys!

Just a quick heads up. First off, I apologise for not having 51 done yet. A combination of life being crap and me tiring out has kept me from doing any real work on ITU recently. I'll try and get something done as fast as I can.

In the meantime, I threw something together last night I thought you might like to read-

Star Wars: The Dread Lord of the Sith

A little chapter with an idea I had while playing TOR. It was a fun diversion, and a much needed break from Shepard.

Let me know what you think!

Fainmaca Out.

[fainmaca]

So, I wonder how many Revenants are gonna be out there smashing Reapers tomorrow...

PS. More EDIs, Bioware? REALLY?