343 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There was an option to mute the voices in DAO.  Did you use it?

If not, then any incongruity caused by the NPCs voices is your own fault.

Did you try it? I just did. You still get lip-synching and all the cinematic stuff. It doesn't remove incongruity, it  makes things ten times worse.

[PinkShoes]

hell yes. I think we should be able to toggle the VA off on. If half the people like it and half the people dont wouldnt it just make sense? I hated how you could only have one personaility in DA2 and it didnt feel like a person you created. It was annoying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sutekh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There was an option to mute the voices in DAO.  Did you use it?

If not, then any incongruity caused by the NPCs voices is your own fault.

Did you try it? I just did. You still get lip-synching and all the cinematic stuff. It doesn't remove incongruity, it  makes things ten times worse.

I don't typically watch the conversations.  I read the subtitles and click through.

In DAO, the seamless transition from cinematic conversations to cutscenes meant that I'd often skip cutscenes by accident.  That was annoying.  It wasn't until my fifth of sixth time through the game, for example, that I knew Uldred said anything at Ostagar.

[Sutekh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't typically watch the conversations.  I read the subtitles and click through.

I do the exact reverse, trying to avoid as much as possible reading the subtitles and focusing on the visuals and the tone, because I don't want to miss anything. Old ESL habit.

The thing is, text-only games are designed for text-only, just like in silent movies, acting, direction, cinematography and lighting are designed for silence. It's a whole thing; you can't just turn off the sound (or the VA vs. silent protag would have easily been solved a long time ago by a simple toggle). It's partly why a silent protag only is so annoying to me. It feels very much as though something is missing; technically wrong, in a way.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The lip-synching isn't good enough. If I don't read the subtitles, I can't always tell what's being said. I'll also remember what was said better if I see it written down.

I can ignore the voice. The voice isn't the problem. The problem is how the rest of the game is changed to accommodate the voice. Hiding the dialogue options from the players. Having the PC speak or act without the player's input. These are the problems that need to be fixed.

[FaWa]

Voices are why we can't have Dwarf or Elf PCs. Thats a huge problem in my book. Down with voices!

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad said...
I can ignore the voice. The voice isn't the problem. The problem is how the rest of the game is changed to accommodate the voice. Hiding the dialogue options from the players. Having the PC speak or act without the player's input. These are the problems that need to be fixed. 

Exactly.

A mute button doesn't fix the fact that every possible dialogue option must be covered and recorded by VAs, that changes to the plot can't happen on the fly if a glaring inconsistency is found, or if a new twist to incorporate a previous narrative element wants to be included. The zots consumed by voiced characters and the inflexibility it gives to the developers to craft their story in a more organic matter, as well as the problem with whatever VA they get making my character sound one way or the other and making off hand comments that can seem totally out of character, despite the developer's best intentions, is the problem with voiced characters.

I'd prefer it the old school Fallout way - silent PC, text conversations for the vast majority of non-important NPCs, then animated faces and voices for important characters and (most) companions.

Cinematics, cutscenes and voices are all great, cool things... but it makes RPGs feel like they are on the rails if the developer is commited to them for every interaction. I'd rather have quality cinematics when it matters, and then text boxes the rest of the time.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 mai 2012 - 07:57 .

[Sutekh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The lip-synching isn't good enough. If I don't read the subtitles, I can't always tell what's being said. I'll also remember what was said better if I see it written down.

I can ignore the voice. The voice isn't the problem. The problem is how the rest of the game is changed to accommodate the voice. Hiding the dialogue options from the players. Having the PC speak or act without the player's input. These are the problems that need to be fixed.

Paraphrases and auto-dialog are indeed a problem. The former not that much for me, but the latter very much so. However I consider them as side-effects that can easily be fixed, not inherently tied to VA.

The only problem with supressing auto-dialog entirely is banter. I hated how, in DAO, the Warden seemed so separate from everyone else, never really part of the group, only because they didn't participate. But on the other hand, if said participation is not something I agree with roleplaying-wise, it's worse. I have no idea how to solve that.

---

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A mute button doesn't fix the fact that every possible dialogue option must be covered and recorded by VAs, that changes to the plot can't happen on the fly if a glaring inconsistency is found, or if a new twist to incorporate a previous narrative element wants to be included.

This isn't a problem with PC VA but with VA in general. NPC VA isn't easier to fix on the fly. It was an enormous problem when Morrowind story and corrective modders (I was one of them) had to work with Oblivion. Suddenly, making a decent quest or a fan-made patch required much more than a computer and a brain. Some dialog corrections were simply impossible. Meanwhile, the PC was still very much silent.

Cinematics, cutscenes and voices are all great, cool things... but it makes RPGs feel like they are on the rails if the developer is commited to them for every interaction. I'd rather have quality cinematics when it matters, and then text boxes the rest of the time.

 Cinematics and cutscenes are part of the signature of the DA franchise. Without them, DAO would have been a completely different game. VA falls naturally into place in such a design. Asking to replace them with textboxes is asking for something that would simply not be Dragon Age. Besides, "when it matters" is entirely subjective.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sutekh wrote...

The only problem with supressing auto-dialog entirely is banter. I hated how, in DAO, the Warden seemed so separate from everyone else, never really part of the group, only because they didn't participate. But on the other hand, if said participation is not something I agree with roleplaying-wise, it's worse. I have no idea how to solve that.

I'd suggest letting the companions initiate conversations.  I'd also suggest allowing some kinds of conversations at any location, rather than limiting them to some established home base.

I understand why they want to stage important conversations in DA2 to the companions' homes, but forcing all conversations to take place in those fixed locations meant that any interaction between Hawke and his companions while adventuring was beyond the player's control.

[wsandista]

PinkShoes wrote...

hell yes. I think we should be able to toggle the VA off on. If half the people like it and half the people dont wouldnt it just make sense? I hated how you could only have one personaility in DA2 and it didnt feel like a person you created. It was annoying.

That is because Hawke wasn't a character created by the player, Hawke is a pre-generated PC, like Geralt or Shepard.

[Morroian]

wsandista wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

hell yes. I think we should be able to toggle the VA off on. If half the people like it and half the people dont wouldnt it just make sense? I hated how you could only have one personaility in DA2 and it didnt feel like a person you created. It was annoying.

That is because Hawke wasn't a character created by the player, Hawke is a pre-generated PC, like Geralt or Shepard.

Hawke is a long way from being like Geralt or Shepard.

[wsandista]

Morroian wrote...

wsandista wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

hell yes. I think we should be able to toggle the VA off on. If half the people like it and half the people dont wouldnt it just make sense? I hated how you could only have one personaility in DA2 and it didnt feel like a person you created. It was annoying.

That is because Hawke wasn't a character created by the player, Hawke is a pre-generated PC, like Geralt or Shepard.

Hawke is a long way from being like Geralt or Shepard.

All three have pre-selected backgrounds and a VA. How is Hawke different?

[Apathy1989]

 Honestly, no. I love a well voiced protagonist.

Anyway they still have to voice the characters you interact with in all the different permutations, I fail to see how a non-voiced protagonist will reduce overhead that much.

[Sutekh]

wsandista wrote...

All three have pre-selected backgrounds and a VA. How is Hawke different?

Can you play a female Geralt? Can you play a Geralt who's not straight? Can you play a Geralt whose class isn't "witcher"? Can you play a Geralt whose hair isn't white? Can you play a Geralt who's not banging Triss (regardless of whom you romanced in the previous game, if I might add)?

A preselected background doesn't make a pre-set character. A VA certainly doesn't.

[wsandista]

Sutekh wrote...

wsandista wrote...

All three have pre-selected backgrounds and a VA. How is Hawke different?

Can you play a female Geralt? Can you play a Geralt who's not straight? Can you play a Geralt whose class isn't "witcher"? Can you play a Geralt whose hair isn't white? Can you play a Geralt who's not banging Triss (regardless of whom you romanced in the previous game, if I might add)?

A preselected background doesn't make a pre-set character.

Can you play a Hawke who is a race other than Human? Can you play a Hawke who isn't running from the Darkspawn and loses a family member. Can you play a Hawke who isn't Hawke?

Sure players have more options to customize Hawke or Shepard than Gerat, but that doesn't make Hawke or Shepard not a pre-set character. Geralt simply doesn't give the player the illusion of being a player-generated PC.

A VA certainly doesn't.

Yes it does. Think about it, Race selection and Origin stories were cut to make the voiced PC easier to implement. With a limited budget to add one feature another must be removed or reduced. In DA2 Race selection and Origin stories were traded for the voiced PC.

[Plaintiff]

No. I don't care about "control", I want a good story and engaging characters.

[Cutlasskiwi]

FASherman wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...
Indeed. Just to look at it from another angle. Would a game with a voiced protagonist get the same budget as one with a silent protagonist? And since BioWare would never reveal such numbers, and frankly it's not something fans need to know, we have no way of seeing just how expansive VA is.

You have hit the nail on the head. You pay $59.95 for DA2 and for Skyrim. DA2 lasted 40 hours and its the same damned plot each time. Skyrim can take you up to 500 hours and the next playthrough you make dozens of different choices and it becomes an entirely different game.

For one, you pay for cinematics and voice acting. For the other, the talent of the developers.

Guess where the money is better spent?

What? That was not what I was getting at. At all.

---
But to answer you, I guess it depends on what sort of game you enjoy, like Sutekh pointed out. For me, going from a BioWare game to a Bethesda game always ends with me feeling alone and a little bored because the lack of focus on characters.

To your last point: so I guess that Skyrim's VAs work for free?

Modifié par Cutlasskiwi, 19 mai 2012 - 08:33 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

wsandista wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

wsandista wrote...

All three have pre-selected backgrounds and a VA. How is Hawke different?

Can you play a female Geralt? Can you play a Geralt who's not straight? Can you play a Geralt whose class isn't "witcher"? Can you play a Geralt whose hair isn't white? Can you play a Geralt who's not banging Triss (regardless of whom you romanced in the previous game, if I might add)?

A preselected background doesn't make a pre-set character.

Can you play a Hawke who is a race other than Human? Can you play a Hawke who isn't running from the Darkspawn and loses a family member. Can you play a Hawke who isn't Hawke?

Sure players have more options to customize Hawke or Shepard than Gerat, but that doesn't make Hawke or Shepard not a pre-set character. Geralt simply doesn't give the player the illusion of being a player-generated PC.

What is it that makes the Waren a player-generated PC in your eyes? I'm generally curious about this. I've always seen every BioWare PC as just that, their PC. I simply step into their shoes for a period of time. The Origins stories are still predetermined by BioWare.  

[wright1978]

No, i like the voiced protaganist. What i don'tlike is when control of what the voiced protaganist says is taken away from me as in ME3.

[AkiKishi]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

wsandista wrote...

All three have pre-selected backgrounds and a VA. How is Hawke different?

Can you play a female Geralt? Can you play a Geralt who's not straight? Can you play a Geralt whose class isn't "witcher"? Can you play a Geralt whose hair isn't white? Can you play a Geralt who's not banging Triss (regardless of whom you romanced in the previous game, if I might add)?

A preselected background doesn't make a pre-set character.

Can you play a Hawke who is a race other than Human? Can you play a Hawke who isn't running from the Darkspawn and loses a family member. Can you play a Hawke who isn't Hawke?

Sure players have more options to customize Hawke or Shepard than Gerat, but that doesn't make Hawke or Shepard not a pre-set character. Geralt simply doesn't give the player the illusion of being a player-generated PC.

What is it that makes the Waren a player-generated PC in your eyes? I'm generally curious about this. I've always seen every BioWare PC as just that, their PC. I simply step into their shoes for a period of time. The Origins stories are still predetermined by BioWare.  

The Origins are less intrusive , that's about what it comes down to. Kind of like being a Bhaalspawn was not your whole character,just the part that drove the plot of the game.

While you have more freedom to create Hawke as a character in non meaningful ways to the game (your first name and appearence are never refered too). You have more freedom as Geralt within the game, as well as being refered to in any number of ways because of who you are, what you look like " I don't like his eyes" being called the "White Wolf" because of your hair colour etc.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[Sutekh]

wsandista wrote...

Can you play a Hawke who is a race other than Human? Can you play a Hawke who isn't running from the Darkspawn and loses a family member. Can you play a Hawke who isn't Hawke?

Subjective criteria are subjective. Let's take a step back and enlarge the view a bit:

Can you play a Kossith Warden? Can you play a Warden who isn't forced into grey-wardening by a Series of Unfortunate Events? Can you play a Warden who isn't the Warden?

Hawke has one (major) restriction regarding what he is (race) and one (major) restriction in who he is (background). The Warden is also restricted, but very much less so. Geralt is restricted in everything. That's what preset chars are: chars you can't customize at all.

((Also, yes, Hawke is Hawke, but I don't quite see your point there. You can't play a Warden who isn't the Warden or a Dovahkiin who isn't the Dovahkiin either))

Sure players have more options to customize Hawke or Shepard than Gerat, but that doesn't make Hawke or Shepard not a pre-set character. Geralt simply doesn't give the player the illusion of being a player-generated PC.

If players have options to customize Hawke, then Hawke is not a preset character (see above). Especially if those options address Hawke's "essence" directly (gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation).

Customization isn't a binary thing. Depending on the game, there are degrees. It can go from 0 (Geralt) to 10 (The Nerevarine), via, for instance, 2 (the Slayer in Divinity II), 4 (Hawke), 5 (Fledgling in Bloodlines), 7 (the Warden), and 8 (The Dovahkiin). On the other hand, preset is a binary thing. Either you can customize or you can't. Of all those examples, only Geralt is at 0 (you can't customize anything) and preset.

Besides, if background is your main criteria, then the Warden is one of six preset characters.

A VA certainly doesn't.

Yes it does. Think about it, Race selection and Origin stories were cut to make the voiced PC easier to implement. With a limited budget to add one feature another must be removed or reduced. In DA2 Race selection and Origin stories were traded for the voiced PC.

According to the devs, unique race and origin were chosen because of the story they envisioned, but I'll give you that one because it might be just PR talk.

Regardless, you're making a logical fallacy because there's no causality between VA and preset, and your premise (Hawke is preset) is not True in the logical sense (it's debatable). Even if we take preset as True, then it's a side-effect of VA due to a given context, not a direct consequence that would always happen.

Hypothetically, you could have highly customizable protags with VA and preset silent protags. VA in itself doesn't make a preset character. Fixed everything does.

[Sutekh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

While you have more freedom to create Hawke as a character in non meaningful ways to the game (your first name and appearence are never refered too).

Hawke's first name is refered to in codices. Generally, customized appearance cannot be refered to for obvious reasons, because the game has no way to know. It is addressed, though, by having different looks for Hawke's family depending on which preset face you based your Hawke's face on.

And, again, what about gender? Do you consider gender as "non-meaningful", considering it is so essential to some players that they will only play a given gender? Or will you keep ignoring it because it doesn't fit your argument? To a lesser extent, what about sexual orientation or ethnicity? Do you consider those as trivial, roleplaying-wise?

You have more freedom as Geralt within the game, as well as being refered to in any number of ways because of who you are, what you look like " I don't like his eyes" being called the "White Wolf" because of your hair colour etc.

That's the game addressing things that will always be the same no matter what, things defined by Sapkowsky, not the player. The game doesn't react to your input, your control. As for freedom, it's given through plot branching. You get freedom regarding the story; Geralt will essentially always be the same.

[Pedrak]

FaWa wrote...

Voices are why we can't have Dwarf or Elf PCs. Thats a huge problem in my book. Down with voices!

They could TOTALLY have different origins/races with a voiced PC and one actor for each gender.

If they want to, that is.

All it takes is some clever casting.

[Fast Jimmy]

Pedrak wrote...

FaWa wrote...

Voices are why we can't have Dwarf or Elf PCs. Thats a huge problem in my book. Down with voices!

They could TOTALLY have different origins/races with a voiced PC and one actor for each gender.

If they want to, that is.

All it takes is some clever casting.

By "casting" are you talking about spell casting? Magical conjuring that will allow resources, money and time to fall from the sky to pay for all the work of adding the VA to all the different myriad of choices available?

Because if you are just talking about picking the right voice actors to speak the lines, you've missed the entire point of every single person, both for and against VAs, in this entire thread.