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Why DAO's Moral Compass Points South


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#1
CBGB

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[I've edited this for clarity, since there appear to be two questions here. Many players are posting about whether or not DAO accurately reflects real life by rewarding selfish behavior, meaning, behavior that benefits only you. That's a good question, too.]

I'm curious about a kind of choice that occurs dozens of times in DAO. When faced with the option to enrich yourself at someone else's expense, why does the selfish option always lead to material reward, yet the selfless one never does?

Yes, yes, virtue is its own reward. Players shouldn't expect lewt for charity, as shown from the mocking crowd of beggars in Denerim. But in real life, and in other kinds of choices in DAO, the outcome isn't so certain.

In real life, blackmail sometimes backfires, as David Letterman can attest. But not in DAO. In real life, lies sometimes come back to bite you. But in DAO, while lying badly can hurt you, successful lying has no repercussions. Telling the truth can have unintended consequences in DAO (if, say, you want to save a girl from a demon-cat), but lying will not.

There's no 'real-life law' mandating that you can gain an income by killing a bartender but not by supporting a waitress, nor is there one insisting that once you blackmail a dwarf, he'll remain ever as loyal to your cause. But that's the law of DAO.

Why is that?

In a game emphasizing choice, it's oddly predictable. I've been floored by the consequences of other decisions in DAO. Lothering is... gone, before I finished there? My choice of sides in a dispute means killing a companion? I'm on my first playthrough, and I still don't know if, when, or how Morrigan is going to betray me.

But I do know the outcome of any choice to enrich myself by harming another. I may still struggle with the options - as both a player and a character, I didn't want to earn a Skill at the cost of a boy's soul - but the result is never in doubt. That demon's deal isn't going to backfire on me in-game.

In Baldur's Gate, most generous acts, like in life, saw no later reward. But some did, just as some - some - selfish acts reverberated later. One poster here noted that in BG, you could even kill Drizzt, but that has consequences far in the future.

In DAO, you can still choose whether or not it's best for you (and your character) to loose a demon on the world. You can still choose to let a repentant man continue his research, instead of slaying him for his robe. But, unlike the other kinds of choices you face, there's no mystery about the outcome.


Does that deliberately emphasize a dark and troubled world?
Or is it an unconscious reflection of designers who feel generosity is never reciprocated?
Or is the game simply meant to allow few to reach the end without dirtied hands?

A 'selfless' option (by sacrificing an item or gold) also isn't going to lead to a later reward. Yes, yes, yes: in real life, it rarely does, and generosity should be done for itself. But in real life, favors are sometimes unexpectedly reciprocated. In Baldur's Gate, some selfish


[In my original post, I opened with a link to a DAO blog using the term 'ludic,' Latin for 'play' to include in-game rewards, like Skill points, that aren't strictly 'material,' like gold. Since later replies focused less on the term and more on the heavy-handed writing style, I've moved it to the end of the post, here:]
http://www.gamasutra...o_the_Abyss.php

Modifié par CBGB, 12 décembre 2009 - 07:26 .


#2
The Angry One

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Dragon Age is set in a medieval era of pain, misery and inequity.

It's hardly surprising that those who seek personal gain above all else get more than saints who give money away to penniless girls... who go on to marry sexy Banns, stealing them from me.. never again, NEVER AGAIN KAITLYN, NEVER.

Where was I? You know what they say. No good deed goes unpunished.


#3
KnightofPhoenix

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CBGB wrote...

I love the game, but I'm surprised by its stance. Potentially difficult choices are made easy: always choose yourself over the common good in DA:O, at least for the best material (or 'ludic') gain.


You, as a Grey Warden = common good.

#4
EJ42

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Why did we not get to meet up with the orphan children or the tavern waitress when we got to Denerim?

I was quite disappointed in the lack of closure there.

#5
Statulos

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Compensate those things with extra xp and it will be fine.

#6
The Angry One

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EJ42 wrote...

Why did we not get to meet up with the orphan children or the tavern waitress when we got to Denerim?
I was quite disappointed in the lack of closure there.


They deal with those in the epilogues.

#7
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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For some, the act of doing a good deed is the reward in itself. No money or other baubles needed. A warm, fuzzy feeling that you made someone's day a little more sunny is enough for characters of a true "good" alignment. Perhaps that was the intent, because in reality, that's usually the only reward you get for doing something good. And a person who performs acts of "good", yet expects some sort of reward in the physical sense or something tangible, is more likely to be "neutral" than "good".




#8
SarEnyaDor

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The rewards are getting a +1 from Alistair or a comment from Sten: "Fitting."

#9
The Angry One

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Or getting disapproval from Morrigan.



"What? You actually saved that kitten from drowing!?"



Morrigan disapproves (-50)

#10
nuculerman

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 yeah.  Well first off as a rational egoist I'm going to have to say doing  things "for the common good" isn't moral, let alone a moral maxim worth developing a game around.

Second, I don't understand your complaint at all.  What was it that you wanted more of?  Money?  You want more money for being charitable?  Yeah, that works.  Power?  You want more power for being charitable?  Yeah, that works too.  Knowledge?  You want more knowledge for being charitable?  Yeah, clearly in the age of $50k/yr ivy leagues, that's also so consistent with real life.  

You don't get rewarded for being selfless in the real world, so why the hell would you get rewarded in an RPG?  What the hell did Martin Luther King Jr. get?  He got shot.  Mother Teresa?  She got praised.  That's life.  If you want to be charitable in real life you don't get rewarded for it.  Your reward is the people you are helping.  Later on, if you were exceptionally selfless, people will remember you in death and talk about what a great person you were, which is exactly what happens in DA:O.

You want karma?  Well it's already in the game.  You help people in the Dalish camp, the people in the Dalish camp are more helpful to you.  You help nobles before the landsmeet, more nobles help you.  What goes around generally comes around as long as the going and coming are good things.

So, again... wtf are you talking about?

#11
EJ42

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The Angry One wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

Why did we not get to meet up with the orphan children or the tavern waitress when we got to Denerim?
I was quite disappointed in the lack of closure there.


They deal with those in the epilogues.

I just loaded my final save, and went through the epilogue again.  I saw absolutely no mention of Bella, Kaitlyn, or Bevin.

Are you sure you saw what you think you saw?

#12
KnightofPhoenix

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nuculerman wrote...
 Power?  You want more power for being charitable?  Yeah, that works too.  


That actually does work in real life, as long as you are not being anonymous. 

 

#13
Rhys Cordelle

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I like that it goes that way. You SHOULD end up with more if you're always asking for payment for your services, or intimidating people to do what you ask. DA is more about roleplaying your character than most other RPGs I've seen, and sometimes that means doing the right thing for little or no reward, and sometimes it means taking advantage when the opportunity arrises.

#14
SarEnyaDor

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If you gave Kaitlyn the 5 gold, she'll end up married to my man Teagan, if your female Cousland didn't flirt up a storm with him. For some reason he never married her after I've flirted with. ;)

#15
Nighteye2

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EJ42 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

Why did we not get to meet up with the orphan children or the tavern waitress when we got to Denerim?
I was quite disappointed in the lack of closure there.


They deal with those in the epilogues.

I just loaded my final save, and went through the epilogue again.  I saw absolutely no mention of Bella, Kaitlyn, or Bevin.

Are you sure you saw what you think you saw?


I saw Bella 2 times. One time she opened a pub in Denerim, the other time she took over the pub in Redcliffe.

#16
EJ42

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SarEnyaDor wrote...

If you gave Kaitlyn the 5 gold, she'll end up married to my man Teagan, if your female Cousland didn't flirt up a storm with him. For some reason he never married her after I've flirted with. ;)

Married to Teagan?  What?  Where did you hear this?

I gave her the maximum money I could, and she said that she was headed off directly to Denerim to her family who would surely take her in now.

I gave Bella the maximum gold too, and she said she was off to Denerim too.

#17
SarEnyaDor

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At the ending blurbs .. though I can't remember if that happened at the same time as Arl Eamon going back to Redcliff disappointed that the Therin line was gone or not, though I think it was. Anora was queen alone, Alistair had foolishly kissed me and sacrificed himself, Eamon went back to Redcliff. In other endings Eamon stays to help Alistair rule and Teagan becomes Arl and Kaitlyn's not mentioned at all. Maybe he only married her if he's still a Bann.

#18
EJ42

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Nighteye2 wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

Why did we not get to meet up with the orphan children or the tavern waitress when we got to Denerim?
I was quite disappointed in the lack of closure there.


They deal with those in the epilogues.

I just loaded my final save, and went through the epilogue again.  I saw absolutely no mention of Bella, Kaitlyn, or Bevin.

Are you sure you saw what you think you saw?


I saw Bella 2 times. One time she opened a pub in Denerim, the other time she took over the pub in Redcliffe.


Pub in Denerim?  Hmm...not seeing that at all.

She did take over the pub in Redcliffe for a time, but then I sent her off to Denerim the next day.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

At the ending blurbs .. though I
can't remember if that happened at the same time as Arl Eamon going
back to Redcliff disappointed that the Therin line was gone or not,
though I think it was. Anora was queen alone, Alistair had foolishly
kissed me and sacrificed himself, Eamon went back to Redcliff. In other
endings Eamon stays to help Alistair rule and Teagan becomes Arl and
Kaitlyn's not mentioned at all. Maybe he only married her if he's still
a Bann.

Ah.  Well, I suppose my path went a little differently.

Anora betrayed me, so I tried my best to have her killed.  As far as I know, she died in the castle tower.  My story ended with Alistair as king, and Arl Eamon went back to Redcliffe after a time serving as advisor in Denerim.  Teagan was only mentioned briefly as ruling in Eamon's stead until he abdicated to Eamon upon his return.

I never saw any mention of Bella, Kaitlyn, or Bevin.  Was quite a disappointment.

Perhaps I will correct these glaring errors when the new toolset is released.

Modifié par EJ42, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:35 .


#19
Mnemnosyne

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I gave Bella the inn (after intimidating Lloyd into giving it to me) and it mentions it in the epilogue. Each of those epilogues probably has a lot of variables though so it may not be as simple as one action.

#20
EJ42

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Koyasha wrote...

I gave Bella the inn (after intimidating Lloyd into giving it to me) and it mentions it in the epilogue. Each of those epilogues probably has a lot of variables though so it may not be as simple as one action.

I intimidated Lloyd into fighting, and then he took it back after the battle of Redcliffe.  I guess the developers didn't intend for me to keep everyone alive.  (Granted, I was just playing on Normal mode...)

Everyone I sent off to Denerim was never mentioned again.

#21
tanglefoot79

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Honestly, I think there's a forest for the trees thing going here. The Author of the article seems concerned about what you get rewarded for, as if the rewards are the whole point of the game. If this were a gear based MMO I'd agree with him. But DA:O is story driven and the rewards can be nice, but not the primary focus IMO.

I don't think the idea was ever in place that you'd get any tangible (in the context of the game) reward for doing good deeds or gain anything over making the evil choice. I believe it's more of a narrative tool, you sacrifice things in order to help people and the only rewards you get are thanks and the approval of some of your party.

Or you're you make the selfish choice, get the tangible rewards, and if you're immersed into the game deep enough you get to ponder what it means to be a selfish ******.

The games moral compass doesn't point south, it doesn't point anywhere in fact. The narrative and the choices you make are meant grant you introspection into your own moral compass

Modifié par tanglefoot79, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:43 .


#22
EJ42

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tanglefoot79 wrote...

Honestly, I think there's a forest for the trees thing going here. The Author of the article seems concerned about what you get rewarded for, as if the rewards are the whole point of the game. If this were a gear based MMO I'd agree with him. But DA:O is story driven and the rewards can be nice, but not the primary focus IMO.

I don't think the idea was ever in place that you'd get any tangible (in the context of the game) reward for doing good deeds or gain anything over making the evil choice. I believe it's more of a narrative tool, you sacrifice things in order to help people and the only rewards you get are thanks and the approval of some of your party.

Or you're you make the selfish choice, get the tangible rewards, and if you're immersed into the game deep enough you get to ponder what it means to be a selfish ******.

The games moral compass doesn't point south, it doesn't point anywhere in fact. The narrative and the choices you make are meant grant you introspection into your own moral compass

I think the real issue lies with the OP himself.

He appears to share Morrigan's view of the world.  "If some action does not give me a reward that I can hold in my hands, then it isn't worth doing."

What is the reward for saving your mother from her burning home?  (Assuming you're old enough that you've moved out.)  Does she pay you?  Does it make you more powerful?  To be honest, she probably would need to live with you temporarily until she can sort out the insurance situation to get back on her feet.  I guess it would be better to just let her die.  It's less trouble, and more rewarding.  Think of the money you'll receive from her life insurance!

#23
SarEnyaDor

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Wow. That is so wrong! LOL

#24
BFBHLC

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Because being good really doesn't amount to jack crap in the real world, why should it in a videogame? Seriously. How many genuinely good people actually  don't get stuck being middle-class slaves?

Modifié par BFBHLC, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .


#25
SarEnyaDor

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I am a lower-middle class slave... or is it an upper-lower class one? So hard to tell these days....

Posted Image

Wish my creator hadn't rolled me up as Neutral Good.