867 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

 Thing I don't understand is how someone can't see that Shepard is being indoctrinated even if we take the ending as is. There signs of it through at that game and at the end of the game itself. It shown most of all when TIM tries to control Shepard. That should of been the hit on the head to make everyone realize that Shepard is under the process of indoctionation ...But before we get started, let go into the set up, back ground and defination of indoctrination in ME.


http://masseffect.wi...Indoctrination 
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

.......
Now, the thing you need to understand is the Shepard had 3 years ofon and off contact with the reapers, giving time for a foundation if indoctrination. To put him in the process of it. In the lore it state Husk and reaper agents give off indoctrination waves.

"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. "
....And dragon teeth can give off indoctrination waves as well....http://masseffect.wi...ing_Survey_Team 
This means Shepard  had ample time with indoctrination waves to start the indoctrination process from the time he landed on eden prime in a ME1,and any form of facing reaper tech or reaper forces built on that process. Shepard doesn't  even need  to be involed for the events of arrival  for the indoctrinatination process to start.
What that mean is slowly the reaper are getting a back to Shep's mind. This means they can effect him. This is shown in the fall of earth. The child Shepard meets has no indication he is real being that no one other then Shepard telks with him, he doesn't even talk likea normal child.

Then add the odditly of the dreams ....You have to note  that  the reapers  can manipulate dremas...http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s

This is shown in ARRIVAL AS WELL.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s 


 In the dreams sign of indoctrination show up, whipers and oily shadows.http://www.youtube.c...fuWNkIUf0#t=31s 
Every person how is indoctrinated complains of Whispers and the rechni Queen when explaining indoctination talks of oil shadows, we comferm she is talking about indoctrination when we meet her again in ME3 and gives the same explination for it agian.

But the most indication sign is at the end ofthe game.....When TIM tries to control Shepard....http://www.youtube.c...fuWNkIUf0#t=31s  

When TIM gets a hold of Sheps mind(If it is real), Shepard hears the same whispers in the dream and sees oily shadows agian.  He has head aches and here buzzing noises. He loses some motor function  .....These are all signs of indoctrination.  So even if you take the ending as it is, Shepard is still show he is the process of indoctrination. And as we all know, that type of indoctriantion is only something that happens over time. As for why TIM controls Anderson their is one way to explain it. Anderson has benn in constate range of reaper, constatly fighting hush, and face Paul Grayson in ME: ASCENSION....Anderson has ample chance for the process of indoctrinatio to happe to his....Note:this is just it you take that scean as real.

Now with the star child....Note how supmisive Shepard is to him. How Shepard hangs on every word...Now look at this...http://www.youtube.c...tBN70xaM#t=290s
Sound familer?
And on last note...The reapers can make the people they control fall asleep....

"The Reapers hit the eject button on the airlock, jettisoning the bodies into the cold vacuum of space.Then they plotted a new course—too quickly for Grayson to catch the final destination—and made thejump to light speed again. Finally, despite his heroic struggle to oppose their will, the Reapers closed hiseyes and made him fall asleep."
(Page 72).ME:RETRIBUTION ...
At the end,Shepard passes out...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VHXN3xtUu44#t=532s

My point is...even if you take the ending as it is. Shepard still is under indoctrination.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 01:09 .

[Navasha]

It wasn't until my 3rd playthrough that I realized just how bloodshot Shepards eyes are throughout the game.

[Joccaren]

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

No offence, but this is seriously getting tired.
It is POSSIBLE HEAD CANON at the moment that Shepard is indoctrinated.
It is NOT a 100% DEFINITE OMGWTFBBQ!?!#$! SHEPARD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED style thing. Indoctrination is one of many interpretations of the ending. Stop pretending its the only one. If you seriously can't think of any alternatives to any of the things presented by IT as 'Evidence', then you are sorely lacking an imagination.

The only part of your OP I will grant you is the TIM sequence, where TIM attempts to use the Reaper process of indoctrination he thinks he has reverse engineered to control Shepard and Anderson. Other than that, there are other explanations for everything in that OP.

[dreman9999]

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

No offence, but this is seriously getting tired.
It is POSSIBLE HEAD CANON at the moment that Shepard is indoctrinated.
It is NOT a 100% DEFINITE OMGWTFBBQ!?!#$! SHEPARD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED style thing. Indoctrination is one of many interpretations of the ending. Stop pretending its the only one. If you seriously can't think of any alternatives to any of the things presented by IT as 'Evidence', then you are sorely lacking an imagination.

The only part of your OP I will grant you is the TIM sequence, where TIM attempts to use the Reaper process of indoctrination he thinks he has reverse engineered to control Shepard and Anderson. Other than that, there are other explanations for everything in that OP.

Listen...can you explain to me how TIm control Shep's body at the end of ME3? Because that , being the core of my arguement, is the indication that Shep was in the process of indoctrination being that TIM can instatly do that with out it.
You have to be in the process of indoctriantion first for that to happen. I'm just pointing out the sign of the process of indoctrination are in the games way before that  Scene with TIM.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 01:06 .

[vixvicco]

Why do people get so worked up about it though? Its a fantastic theory, but not everyone wants to believe it. Its speculation. Bioware has not confirmed anything. In fact, they have said things that show that clearly they hadn't even though of the IT. If they decide to go that direction in the DLC, great, but in the meantime, I think its Boiware who messed up, not the people who don't believe in the IT.

[sorentoft]

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

Because what you see is what you get. IT is a product made out of people's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

[TSA_383]

The big hint is that Arrival was marketed as a really important DLC for understanding the plot of ME3.

You might not think so, but there's a couple of important comments from the scientists complaining of:

1- Having the same, disturbing dream repeatedly
2- Hearing "Whispers" (further into indoctrination)

Now to me, given that they made arrival after they'd already planned ME3, is a MASSIVE hint, even if you disregard all the other points (and there are an awful lot of them).

[rocketsauce v2]

dreman9999 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

No offence, but this is seriously getting tired.
It is POSSIBLE HEAD CANON at the moment that Shepard is indoctrinated.
It is NOT a 100% DEFINITE OMGWTFBBQ!?!#$! SHEPARD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED style thing. Indoctrination is one of many interpretations of the ending. Stop pretending its the only one. If you seriously can't think of any alternatives to any of the things presented by IT as 'Evidence', then you are sorely lacking an imagination.

The only part of your OP I will grant you is the TIM sequence, where TIM attempts to use the Reaper process of indoctrination he thinks he has reverse engineered to control Shepard and Anderson. Other than that, there are other explanations for everything in that OP.

Listen...can you explain to me how TIm control Shep's body at the end of ME3? Because that , being the core of my arguement, is the indication that Shep was in the process of indoctrination being that TIM can instatly do that with out it.
You have to be in the process of indoctriantion first for that to happen. I'm just pointing out the sign of the process of indoctrination are in the games way before that  Scene with TIM.

Did you miss the whole TIM control plotline? Did you follow how on Horizon, Miranda's father was working for him and found a way to make control possible? And did you watch the last set of video in the cerberus base that shows TIM getting the implants with this modified reaper tech?

The moment he shows up at the citadel at the end is when all the weird red stuff shows up on the screen. It is TIM controling you with his shiny new implants

[Grimgaww]

I've already answered to you on this social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11951994/12 thread
and you still didn't get it. i will copy paste all i've said again:


1.
Indoctrination is part of ME world.

If Bioware will choose to go on the EC with IT and explaining
Shepard was affecting by IT at the very end is very bad choise and also very stupid.
you need  actions from Shepard throughout
the series or only ME3 that really prove
that Shepard started to "change" and become value to the reapers and not some stupid kid dreams -
and saying wow this what's broke Shepard. He has never saw throughout his life
as a soldier children dying.

You didn't get the DLC idea ???

2.
If Bioware wanted to use the IT on Shepard this is not the way to do that.

Why they didn't release an official movie that explains it instead of making the EC that was not
planned from the beginning ?

I believe you know that they are writing the EC (or rewrting it) right now very very carefully.
If  the ending was so clear to them and maybe they thought that also to us why they need to add the EC ???

Mass effect series is not a Stephen king/m night shyamalan movie that needs
a weired dark nonsensical ending.

Sry man don't buying it and IT.

3.
You are in the right direction by saying that Bioware will choose dreaming/hallucinating.
I'm sure that Bioware will choose this direction (which i also think stupid for ME series).
With all the theories that gamers have made about the ending Bioware only need to take the best
(and most popular by fans as they see it) from the best theories and make the EC.

Bioware can say the war was not ended shepard was dreaming/hallucinating
when he was badly injured. He will recover (don't forget the prothean war against the reapers was for centuries)
and get back to action as a DLC.

This is all what we, the fans have wanted no ????
NO ....

Modifié par Grimgaww, 10 mai 2012 - 01:38 .

[TSA_383]

From this topic 10 months ago:
http://social.biowar...5/index/7761474

yfullman wrote...

I think Shepard is starting to experience the first stages of indoctrination. remember the child from the ME3 demo? I personally don't think he was real

Fantastic

[Thorn Harvestar]

rocketsauce v2 wrote...


The moment he shows up at the citadel at the end is when all the weird red stuff shows up on the screen. It is TIM controling you with his shiny new implants

His shiny new implants that were supposed to let him control Reapers?

Yet he controls Anderson in this scene too...

[Xellith]

Its possible that they were going to use indoctrination. However they decided not to, but elements are still left within the game.

The one thing thats bad about the whole indoctrination thing is that if you say your shepard is not being indoctrinated - thats exactly what Bioware might want you to think

Oh the mind games they could be playing..

[rocketsauce v2]

I remember Mr Lawson (don't remember his name sorry) saying they were able to control on a small scale and a whole reaper was an entirely different story. I guess the plot led me to believe they were able to do it to other people cause they ran out of time to continue to research. Being indoctrinated or not has nothing to do with it and never did

[dreman9999]

rocketsauce v2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

No offence, but this is seriously getting tired.
It is POSSIBLE HEAD CANON at the moment that Shepard is indoctrinated.
It is NOT a 100% DEFINITE OMGWTFBBQ!?!#$! SHEPARD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED style thing. Indoctrination is one of many interpretations of the ending. Stop pretending its the only one. If you seriously can't think of any alternatives to any of the things presented by IT as 'Evidence', then you are sorely lacking an imagination.

The only part of your OP I will grant you is the TIM sequence, where TIM attempts to use the Reaper process of indoctrination he thinks he has reverse engineered to control Shepard and Anderson. Other than that, there are other explanations for everything in that OP.

Listen...can you explain to me how TIm control Shep's body at the end of ME3? Because that , being the core of my arguement, is the indication that Shep was in the process of indoctrination being that TIM can instatly do that with out it.
You have to be in the process of indoctriantion first for that to happen. I'm just pointing out the sign of the process of indoctrination are in the games way before that  Scene with TIM.

Did you miss the whole TIM control plotline? Did you follow how on Horizon, Miranda's father was working for him and found a way to make control possible? And did you watch the last set of video in the cerberus base that shows TIM getting the implants with this modified reaper tech?

The moment he shows up at the citadel at the end is when all the weird red stuff shows up on the screen. It is TIM controling you with his shiny new implants

Your not understanding....One way or another it's indocrtination. Even with what TIM has, no of his tech does instant indoctriation. Get it. Shepard has to be in the process of indoctrination first. Even the cerberus troops had to be implanted first in order to be controled. The fact that TIM can control Shepardis the proof the Shepard is in the prosecc of indoctrination.

[Thorn Harvestar]

rocketsauce v2 wrote...

I remember Mr Lawson (don't remember his name sorry) saying they were able to control on a small scale and a whole reaper was an entirely different story. I guess the plot led me to believe they were able to do it to other people cause they ran out of time to continue to research. Being indoctrinated or not has nothing to do with it and never did

I thought it was more like, Lawson was able to control Husks/etc. but not a whole Reaper. I'd have to replay that level again

[dreman9999]

rocketsauce v2 wrote...

I remember Mr Lawson (don't remember his name sorry) saying they were able to control on a small scale and a whole reaper was an entirely different story. I guess the plot led me to believe they were able to do it to other people cause they ran out of time to continue to research. Being indoctrinated or not has nothing to do with it and never did

They peole they can control has to be implanted with reaper tech or indocrtiated first before they could control them. Shep has to be in the process of indocrination first to be controled.

[rocketsauce v2]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...



[/quote]Your not understanding....One way or another it's indocrtination. Even with what TIM has, no of his tech does instant indoctriation. Get it. Shepard has to be in the process of indoctrination first. Even the cerberus troops had to be implanted first in order to be controled. The fact that TIM can control Shepardis the proof the Shepard is in the prosecc of indoctrination.
[/quote]

Why does indoctrination have anything to do with it in the first place? No where does it say for TIM's implants to work they need to be on indoctrinated people. 

[dreman9999]

Grimgaww wrote...

I've already answered to you on this social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11951994/12 thread
and you still didn't get it. i will copy paste all i've said again:


1.
Indoctrination is part of ME world.

If Bioware will choose to go on the EC with IT and explaining
Shepard was affecting by IT at the very end is very bad choise and also very stupid.
you need  actions from Shepard throughout
the series or only ME3 that really prove
that Shepard started to "change" and become value to the reapers and not some stupid kid dreams -
and saying wow this what's broke Shepard. He has never saw throughout his life
as a soldier children dying.

You didn't get the DLC idea ???

2.
If Bioware wanted to use the IT on Shepard this is not the way to do that.

Why they didn't release an official movie that explains it instead of making the EC that was not
planned from the beginning ?

I believe you know that they are writing the EC (or rewrting it) right now very very carefully.
If  the ending was so clear to them and maybe they thought that also to us why they need to add the EC ???

Mass effect series is not a Stephen king/m night shyamalan movie that needs
a weired dark nonsensical ending.

Sry man don't buying it and IT.

3.
You are in the right direction by saying that Bioware will choose dreaming/hallucinating.
I'm sure that Bioware will choose this direction (which i also think stupid for ME series).
With all the theories that gamers have made about the ending Bioware only need to take the best
(and most popular by fans as they see it) from the best theories and make the EC.

Bioware can say the war was not ended shepard was dreaming/hallucinating
when he was badly injured. He will recover (don't forget the prothean war against the reapers was for centuries)
and get back to action as a DLC.

This is all what we, the fans have wanted no ????
NO ....

And I alreaddy explaine that they already Shown that SHepard is in the process of indoctriantion by the fact TIM can control him. It not just dreams and hallutionations allow, it TIM controling Shepard as well.

[dreman9999]

[quote]rocketsauce v2 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...



[/quote]Your not understanding....One way or another it's indocrtination. Even with what TIM has, no of his tech does instant indoctriation. Get it. Shepard has to be in the process of indoctrination first. Even the cerberus troops had to be implanted first in order to be controled. The fact that TIM can control Shepardis the proof the Shepard is in the prosecc of indoctrination.
[/quote]

Why does indoctrination have anything to do with it in the first place? No where does it say for TIM's implants to work they need to be on indoctrinated people. 

[/quote]Yes, it does. On sacturary and the cerberus based. You learn the they take unwill people,implant them with reaper tech and control them with indoctrination. We also know that they can control husk, which are being indoctrinated by reapers. No matter how you cut it, the person has to beindoctrinatedin some way to be controled. Cerberus never shows that they can instatly do that.

[dreman9999]

sorentoft wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

Because what you see is what you get. IT is a product made out of people's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

Indoctrination is a key part of ME. The fact that TIm control Shepard is a clear sign that Shepardis in the process of indoctrination.

[rocketsauce v2]

I guess. I'm just not someone who believes the IT is true, thats all. Just pointing some things out, don't really want to argue about it

[dreman9999]

rocketsauce v2 wrote...

I guess. I'm just not someone who believes the IT is true, thats all. Just pointing some things out, don't really want to argue about it

That is clear but you have to ask your self...How is TIM controling Shepard? Even the cerberus tech they used to control people, the person has to be implanted with reaper tech and indoctrianted first.It can't be something instant based on want stated on indoctrination.

[Elyiia]

Here's a rather interesting point, ME3 is supposedly, according to Bioware, a perfect place for a new player to start the trilogy. Very little of the actual details about what indoctrination entails is told in ME3, we see it but we're not giving a lot of information as opposed to ME1 and ME2. How is a new player to the series supposed to understand that Shepard has been indoctrinated?

Outside game sources are not valid, you should not have to go outside of the game to understand it.

[dreman9999]

Elyiia wrote...

Here's a rather interesting point, ME3 is supposedly, according to Bioware, a perfect place for a new player to start the trilogy. Very little of the actual details about what indoctrination entails is told in ME3, we see it but we're not giving a lot of information as opposed to ME1 and ME2. How is a new player to the series supposed to understand that Shepard has been indoctrinated?

Outside game sources are not valid, you should not have to go outside of the game to understand it.

By reading the codex and listen to what everyone said about past event. On a new game playthrough, everyone goes into detail about everything that happen in the ME series. New players get the recap, old players who import don't get the recap. Understand?
Beside, an ending that we have is not even geared to the new players anyway.

Also, those are out side sourse are put in the games of the series any way. ME:revilation, retruidution, asension, invasion and etc have all been metioned in ME1,2, and 3. The fact the Kai Lang is in ME3 means they are a valid source.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[TSA_383]

Xellith wrote...

Its possible that they were going to use indoctrination. However they decided not to, but elements are still left within the game.

The one thing thats bad about the whole indoctrination thing is that if you say your shepard is not being indoctrinated - thats exactly what Bioware might want you to think

Oh the mind games they could be playing..

I absolutely love it as a plot twist... I just wish if they were going to do a delayed announcement they did it with less of a delay