867 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorkan86]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

Why not, Garrus is affected after all, so Shepard can too.

[jijeebo]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

Whats an indoctrination wave, did I miss something?

[Tom Lehrer]

EsterCloat wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give use real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Indoctrination is in all 3 games, are all 3 games bad writing? Please play the first two games, read the comics, do your research, then get back to us=]

He didn't say anything about indoctrination not being present. Nice totally misconstruing his post and not addressing his points at all, however.

Im not a debate expert so I might be wrong but I think what balance5050 did is called a straw man arrgument.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 10 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

[dreman9999]

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

[quote]CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.[/quote]
Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...
[/quote]

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

[/quote]Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.
[/quote]

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.



[/quote]Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

[/quote]How can I make this clear.....
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after Arrival?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after he collector base?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after I saw some one turned to a paste.
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after virmire?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after bring down the sky?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams as a soul servior?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  as a clonist?
[/quote]

Bioware hadn't thought of it yet, although Shep shows signs of guilt after several events throughout the first 2 games, perhaps seeing Earth being attacked so violently and then this kid dieing was his tipping point.

[quote]
I can go on.....
And there a few facts to consider.
1.Reapers, reaper tech, husk, and reaper agents can indoctriante.
2.Shepard by reaper tech on and off for 3 years.
3. Cerbeuse can only control people who are implanted with reaper tech or has a form of indoctriantion.
4. TIm controls shepard at the end of ME3.
5. Indcortination is subtle and shows know sign till it's too late...
[/quote]

1. Duh, doesn't prove anything. Fire can burn, doesn't mean Shepard needs to run to the ICU whenever somethings ablaze.
2. Not that much exposure really, if you speed-run it.
3. I'm not getting into this debate again.
4. Yeah, controls, NOT indoctrinates.
5. It shows signs to people on the outside, someone would have flagged it seeing as how everyone would be on edge.

[quote]
So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Stop it.

[/quote]1.Nope..That fact you suddely have dreams is to point out something odd is going on. You sappost to think it's a survivers guilt dream.
2. 1. Explining how indoctrination works.
    2.Game story have it own network of time. A few minuest for the vew can be ours for the game character. It still a         point of contact.
     3.Sorry, but you haveto note what cerberus can do to understand what is going on.
     4.Indoctrination is controling. TIM has know other way to control Shepard.
      5. It only shows sign after it's has control. Did Dr.Kension show signs of it before she turned?
3. No...
Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

[UrgentArchengel]

jijeebo wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

Whats an indoctrination wave, did I miss something?

Basically it's just the means of how Reapers indoctrinate.  I just called them waves. 

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

Tell that to Sarens body and nearly every husk.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give use real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Indoctrination is in all 3 games, are all 3 games bad writing? Please play the first two games, read the comics, do your research, then get back to us=]

He didn't say anything about indoctrination not being present. Nice totally misconstruing his post and not addressing his points at all, however.

Im not a debate expert so I might be wrong but I think what balance5050 did is called a straw man arrgument.

How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

Whats an indoctrination wave, did I miss something?

 

[111987]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

Tell that to Sarens body and nearly every husk.

Saren and Husks had/have implants, which is why they could continue to function and be controleld after the original subject was dead. Indoctrination without implants cannot affect a dead person.

[Heg28]

I just want to briefly support the OP.

The scene with TIM at the end is to me an obvious indoctrination attempt. You have everything in that scene.. 'Alien voices', 'oily shadows', 'headaches' etc.. All TIM is trying to do in that scene is what he trys throughout the whole game, to convince Shepard of his believes. If you now consider that TIM is already controlled by the Reapers, which is a fact, essentially the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard of there believes, and that is what indoctrination is about.

I don´t claim that everything is a dream or a hallucination or something. If you take that scene for real, then it is still an indoctrination attempt. The symptoms are literally taken from the codex and applied to that very scene.

[jasonxxsatanna]

I still don't see how it doesn't match any indoctrination we seen , it does, but dont forget Shep is strong willed he's been resisting. . .

[Wabajakka]

OP you may be interested in my version of the IT I created a while back then. It suggests the exact same thing you're saying.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 10 mai 2012 - 07:06 .

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

Tell that to Sarens body and nearly every husk.

Saren and Husks had/have implants, which is why they could continue to function and be controleld after the original subject was dead. Indoctrination without implants cannot affect a dead person.

Which is why the collectors wanted Shepards body.

[dreman9999]

jasonxxsatanna wrote...

I still don't see how it doesn't match any indoctrination we seen , it does, but dont forget Shep is strong willed he's been resisting. . .

Note, you have to know your being indoctrinated to resist it. And we did see this form of indocttrination with every person we seen indoctrinated.

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

[dreman9999]

Heg28 wrote...

I just want to briefly support the OP.

The scene with TIM at the end is to me an obvious indoctrination attempt. You have everything in that scene.. 'Alien voices', 'oily shadows', 'headaches' etc.. All TIM is trying to do in that scene is what he trys throughout the whole game, to convince Shepard of his believes. If you now consider that TIM is already controlled by the Reapers, which is a fact, essentially the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard of there believes, and that is what indoctrination is about.

I don´t claim that everything is a dream or a hallucination or something. If you take that scene for real, then it is still an indoctrination attempt. The symptoms are literally taken from the codex and applied to that very scene.

That's the poitn of my topic. it does say...
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is?

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

[TODD9999]

dreman9999 wrote...

But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

- Many people have contact with many different pieces of Reaper tech.  Some of them seem to become indoctrinated, others do not.
- The "symptoms" of indoctrination that I've seen (short of outright doing the Reapers' will) are also easily explained by other psychological phenomena. 
EDIT2: Here I'm referring to the ones people say Shepard experiences in particular.
- Being controlled by TIM temporarily does not indicate that Shepard has been indoctrinated over three games (or even 2 games or 1 game).

And regarding the Last Hours app, I assume you're referring to the discarded sequence where you lose control of Shepard?  It seems clear to me they replaced the part where you lose control of Shepard with the part where you lose control of Shepard - meaning, TIM's short-lived control technique.  You may disagree, but I haven't yet seen evidence that clearly supports another interpretation over mine.

Also, there's no reason to use all caps, which I'd assume means you're getting upset.  I don't find the points you're raising convincing, nor have you even touched all of my brief points against IT being intended, but my intent is not to make you angry.  I've said my piece, and I'm happy to go on my way if that would help you to be happier.

EDIT: Fixed some quote tags.

Modifié par TODD9999, 10 mai 2012 - 07:13 .

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

We got an ending. It was a bad one but we still got it.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Heg28 wrote...

I just want to briefly support the OP.

The scene with TIM at the end is to me an obvious indoctrination attempt. You have everything in that scene.. 'Alien voices', 'oily shadows', 'headaches' etc.. All TIM is trying to do in that scene is what he trys throughout the whole game, to convince Shepard of his believes. If you now consider that TIM is already controlled by the Reapers, which is a fact, essentially the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard of there believes, and that is what indoctrination is about.

I don´t claim that everything is a dream or a hallucination or something. If you take that scene for real, then it is still an indoctrination attempt. The symptoms are literally taken from the codex and applied to that very scene.

Even if it's an indoctrination attempt, that's all it is - an attempt.  An attempt that Shepard successfully resists.  And then the "symptoms" are gone and never reappear.  There is nothing to suggest that this attempt extends further or beyond the interaction with TIM.

TODD9999 wrote...
- Being controlled by TIM temporarily does
not indicate that Shepard has been indoctrinated over three games (or
even 2 games or 1 game).

I'm wondering if he will ever respond to this point.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 10 mai 2012 - 07:13 .

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

Tell that to Sarens body and nearly every husk.

Sarens body was dead for seconds. He was under Sovereign control via implants, like TIM.

Husksyfication is allways bursted by Dragon spikes or Indoc busters. Because reapers need a lot of cannon fodder.

Shepard was dead for years, is that too short time to indoctrinate the not resisting target?

[111987]

dreman9999 wrote...

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

He was dead for two years, actually. Not enough time to turn his remains into husk? If you dead you can't resist anything.

But you mind does not exist, it's simply dead, nothing to affect with indoctination.

Tell that to Sarens body and nearly every husk.

Saren and Husks had/have implants, which is why they could continue to function and be controleld after the original subject was dead. Indoctrination without implants cannot affect a dead person.

Which is why the collectors wanted Shepards body.

What???

[EsterCloat]

dreman9999 wrote...

How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Because the fact he used didn't have anything to do with the post?

[jijeebo]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

[quote]CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.[/quote]
Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...
[/quote]

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

[/quote]Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.
[/quote]

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.



[/quote]Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

[/quote]How can I make this clear.....
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after Arrival?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after he collector base?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after I saw some one turned to a paste.
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after virmire?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after bring down the sky?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams as a soul servior?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  as a clonist?
[/quote]

Bioware hadn't thought of it yet, although Shep shows signs of guilt after several events throughout the first 2 games, perhaps seeing Earth being attacked so violently and then this kid dieing was his tipping point.

[quote]
I can go on.....
And there a few facts to consider.
1.Reapers, reaper tech, husk, and reaper agents can indoctriante.
2.Shepard by reaper tech on and off for 3 years.
3. Cerbeuse can only control people who are implanted with reaper tech or has a form of indoctriantion.
4. TIm controls shepard at the end of ME3.
5. Indcortination is subtle and shows know sign till it's too late...
[/quote]

1. Duh, doesn't prove anything. Fire can burn, doesn't mean Shepard needs to run to the ICU whenever somethings ablaze.
2. Not that much exposure really, if you speed-run it.
3. I'm not getting into this debate again.
4. Yeah, controls, NOT indoctrinates.
5. It shows signs to people on the outside, someone would have flagged it seeing as how everyone would be on edge.

[quote]
So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Stop it.

[/quote]1.Nope..That fact you suddely have dreams is to point out something odd is going on. You sappost to think it's a survivers guilt dream.
2. 1. Explining how indoctrination works.
[/quote]
Telling me that reaper stuff indoctrinates isn't explaining how indoctrination works... It's like telling someone that a car drives, then claiming you've made them a mechanic.

[quote]
    2.Game story have it own network of time. A few minuest for the vew can be ours for the game character. It still a         point of contact.
[/quote]

You can't ignore that a LOT of the reaper contact is optional though. Lots of people didn't even experience Arrival yet it's presented as a key turning point.

[quote]
     3.Sorry, but you haveto note what cerberus can do to understand what is going on.
     4.Indoctrination is controling. TIM has know other way to control Shepard.
[/quote]
Have you completely forgotten those circles we spent ages going around in earlier? You know where I stand on this topic and i'm not repeating myself again.

[quote]
      5. It only shows sign after it's has control. Did Dr.Kension show signs of it before she turned?
3. No...
Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Kenson was indoctrinated the entire time, she was luring you into a trap, iirc. So of course she wouldn't show signs, she was one of those sleeper agents we kept hearing about. If Shepard started complaining about hearing buzzing sounds and thinking that the reapers are pretty boss, which are symptoms that are well documented, which means people DO make it known that they are happening, someone would have noticed.