867 réponses à ce sujet

[hammerfan]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

We got an ending. It was a bad one but we still got it.

This.

[jasonxxsatanna]

Dreman9999 , no I understand believe in IT, I was posting my last reply to hadeedak , who said that IT causes more plotholes then it clears up, I disagree with his statement

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

- Many people have contact with many different pieces of Reaper tech.  Some of them seem to become indoctrinated, others do not.
- The "symptoms" of indoctrination that I've seen (short of outright doing the Reapers' will) are also easily explained by other psychological phenomena. 
- Being controlled by TIM temporarily does not indicate that Shepard has been indoctrinated over three games (or even 2 games or 1 game).

And regarding the Last Hours app, I assume you're referring to the discarded sequence where you lose control of Shepard?  It seems clear to me they replaced the part where you lose control of Shepard with the part where you lose control of Shepard - meaning, TIM's short-lived control technique.  You may disagree, but I haven't yet seen evidence that clearly supports another interpretation over mine.

Also, there's no reason to use all caps, which I'd assume means you're getting upset.  I don't find the points you're raising convincing, nor have you even touched all of my brief points against IT being intended, but my intent is not to make you angry.  I've said my piece, and I'm happy to go on my way if that would help you to be happier.

EDIT: Fixed some quote tags.

1.Their is not one person who  has prolonged , constant or on or off contact with reaper tech with no signs of indoctrination.
2.Which is why it's subtle and hard to detect.
3.There is no other way for TIM to control SHepard. Any other form has other signs of it. Shepard , once control by TIm , has every symtom of indoctrination  go off.
4.That's my point. That was stated in last hour to show that Shepardis in the process of indoctriantion.

5. Sorry, it sticks on me.

[dreman9999]

hammerfan wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

We got an ending. It was a bad one but we still got it.

This.

The fact we are getting ec means we don't havfe an ending.

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

That's the point of this entire topic. Read the opening comment.

I read the first post again, but have not found a mention about subtleness of indoctrination. Or why it must be coverer.

[Heg28]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heg28 wrote...

I just want to briefly support the OP.

The scene with TIM at the end is to me an obvious indoctrination attempt. You have everything in that scene.. 'Alien voices', 'oily shadows', 'headaches' etc.. All TIM is trying to do in that scene is what he trys throughout the whole game, to convince Shepard of his believes. If you now consider that TIM is already controlled by the Reapers, which is a fact, essentially the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard of there believes, and that is what indoctrination is about.

I don´t claim that everything is a dream or a hallucination or something. If you take that scene for real, then it is still an indoctrination attempt. The symptoms are literally taken from the codex and applied to that very scene.

That's the poitn of my topic. it does say...
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is?

I know. As I said I just wanted to support you  

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

hammerfan wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

We got an ending. It was a bad one but we still got it.

This.

The fact we are getting ec means we don't havfe an ending.

EC is not an ending. The reason behind EC is to make the ending we have more palatable.

[dreman9999]

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

[quote]CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.[/quote]
Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...
[/quote]

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

[/quote]Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.
[/quote]

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.



[/quote]Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

[/quote]How can I make this clear.....
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after Arrival?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after he collector base?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after I saw some one turned to a paste.
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after virmire?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after bring down the sky?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams as a soul servior?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  as a clonist?
[/quote]

Bioware hadn't thought of it yet, although Shep shows signs of guilt after several events throughout the first 2 games, perhaps seeing Earth being attacked so violently and then this kid dieing was his tipping point.

[quote]
I can go on.....
And there a few facts to consider.
1.Reapers, reaper tech, husk, and reaper agents can indoctriante.
2.Shepard by reaper tech on and off for 3 years.
3. Cerbeuse can only control people who are implanted with reaper tech or has a form of indoctriantion.
4. TIm controls shepard at the end of ME3.
5. Indcortination is subtle and shows know sign till it's too late...
[/quote]

1. Duh, doesn't prove anything. Fire can burn, doesn't mean Shepard needs to run to the ICU whenever somethings ablaze.
2. Not that much exposure really, if you speed-run it.
3. I'm not getting into this debate again.
4. Yeah, controls, NOT indoctrinates.
5. It shows signs to people on the outside, someone would have flagged it seeing as how everyone would be on edge.

[quote]
So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Stop it.

[/quote]1.Nope..That fact you suddely have dreams is to point out something odd is going on. You sappost to think it's a survivers guilt dream.
2. 1. Explining how indoctrination works.
[/quote]
Telling me that reaper stuff indoctrinates isn't explaining how indoctrination works... It's like telling someone that a car drives, then claiming you've made them a mechanic.

[quote]
    2.Game story have it own network of time. A few minuest for the vew can be ours for the game character. It still a         point of contact.
[/quote]

You can't ignore that a LOT of the reaper contact is optional though. Lots of people didn't even experience Arrival yet it's presented as a key turning point.

[quote]
     3.Sorry, but you haveto note what cerberus can do to understand what is going on.
     4.Indoctrination is controling. TIM has know other way to control Shepard.
[/quote]
Have you completely forgotten those circles we spent ages going around in earlier? You know where I stand on this topic and i'm not repeating myself again.

[quote]
      5. It only shows sign after it's has control. Did Dr.Kension show signs of it before she turned?
3. No...
Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?
[/quote]

Kenson was indoctrinated the entire time, she was luring you into a trap, iirc. So of course she wouldn't show signs, she was one of those sleeper agents we kept hearing about. If Shepard started complaining about hearing buzzing sounds and thinking that the reapers are pretty boss, which are symptoms that are well documented, which means people DO make it known that they are happening, someone would have noticed.


[/quote]1.Do you want me to tellyou everything in detail? Read the opening comment of the topic. I not going to repat everything in detail becaus eyou don' want ti read it.
2. The other reaper stuff is enough to start the indoctriantion process.
3.No,it was justyou sticking your head in the mud. You have yet to prove it was anything else.
4.And yet, we could not tell till after She got you into the trap....That's my point. Befre she got you to the trap, you could not tell.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

hammerfan wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is using fact from the story a straw mans argument?

Did you read my whole post? Im not attacking indoctination but the theory we got no real endding to the game.

But we didn't get an ending..That's the whole problem.

We got an ending. It was a bad one but we still got it.

This.

The fact we are getting ec means we don't havfe an ending.

EC is not an ending. The reason behind EC is to make the ending we have more palatable.

The fact that is mean to clearify the ending means its an ending. That means we don't have an ending yet.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

That's the point of this entire topic. Read the opening comment.

I read the first post again, but have not found a mention about subtleness of indoctrination. Or why it must be coverer.

  
This link is in the opening comment.
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that is mean to clearify the ending means its an ending. That means we don't have an ending yet.

Clearifaction means just that nothing else. Look up the meaning of the word in an English dictionary.

If we had no endding they could not clearify it.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 10 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[TODD9999]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Their is not one person who  has prolonged , constant or on or off contact with reaper tech with no signs of indoctrination.
2.Which is why it's subtle and hard to detect.
3.There is no other way for TIM to control SHepard. Any other form has other signs of it. Shepard , once control by TIm , has every symtom of indoctrination  go off.
4.That's my point. That was stated in last hour to show that Shepardis in the process of indoctriantion.

5. Sorry, it sticks on me.

1 - How many people do we see actually become indoctrinated via this route in the game?  "Not one person" is pretty strong language.  Furthermore, even if I were to accept the premise that *everyone* else has become indoctrinated, that is not evidence that Shepard has been, nor is it evidence that it is impossible to resist.

2 - I'd disagree - I'd say it means there's an equally strong alternative explanation, which means that it is not clear evidence for IT.

3 - Of course TIM utilized the indoctrination research he'd been doing to take control of Shepard, probably via the Reaper implants he's had put in.  That was never a point being argued.  But the fact that TIM used a technique derived from Reaper indoctrination techniques in the last five minutes does not mean that Shepard has been indoctrinated across the course of three games, nor that IT is true. 

4 - First of all, the sequence was cut, so it did not happen and thus has very little value as evidence for anything (I'm sure many other ideas have been cut that are not currently under discussion).  Secondly, you are speculating on the purpose of the sequence, which I'm not seeing in the actual bit in the app.  They state *what* would happen, but not *why*, nor is there anything I can see about long-term indoctrination or anything else.

I remain unconvinced.

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

That's the point of this entire topic. Read the opening comment.

I read the first post again, but have not found a mention about subtleness of indoctrination. Or why it must be coverer.

  
This link is in the opening comment.
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Watched the video. Why is this process a subtle clear to me.
It is not clear why you need a cover for a subtle process. It's already subtle.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

That's the point of this entire topic. Read the opening comment.

I read the first post again, but have not found a mention about subtleness of indoctrination. Or why it must be coverer.

  
This link is in the opening comment.
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Watched the video. Why is this process a subtle clear to me.
It is not clear why you need a cover for a subtle process. It's already subtle.

Dear lord, How do you think it's subtle in the first place? In every scene with inoctriantion in ME, Every person that it's happening to feels that something wrong is going on and can't tell what. It's obvious they have to us covers to apply it. That's the reason it's subtle.
Aded she says the more your indoctrinated, the more you feel it. Which is why it has to evetually have a cover.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 07:50 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Do you want me to tellyou everything in detail? Read the opening comment of the topic. I not going to repat everything in detail becaus eyou don' want ti read it.
2. The other reaper stuff is enough to start the indoctriantion process.
3.No,it was justyou sticking your head in the mud. You have yet to prove it was anything else.
4.And yet, we could not tell till after She got you into the trap....That's my point. Befre she got you to the trap, you could not tell.

1. What? I never asked you to in the first place, I was just pointing out that you hadn't actually explained what you claimed you had.

2. Assumption.

3. So having a different opinion than yours is "sticking my head in the mud"? i'm not the one in denial about the endings.

4. She was already indoctrinated fully and being deliberately used to fool us, Shepard wouldn't be like that whilst it's happening. Even if he wasn't able to put 2+2 together because he himself was being indoctrinated, his symptoms would have been mentioned at some point and a crew member would have piece it together.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Do you want me to tellyou everything in detail? Read the opening comment of the topic. I not going to repat everything in detail becaus eyou don' want ti read it.
2. The other reaper stuff is enough to start the indoctriantion process.
3.No,it was justyou sticking your head in the mud. You have yet to prove it was anything else.
4.And yet, we could not tell till after She got you into the trap....That's my point. Befre she got you to the trap, you could not tell.

1. What? I never asked you to in the first place, I was just pointing out that you hadn't actually explained what you claimed you had.

2. Assumption.

3. So having a different opinion than yours is "sticking my head in the mud"? i'm not the one in denial about the endings.

4. She was already indoctrinated fully and being deliberately used to fool us, Shepard wouldn't be like that whilst it's happening. Even if he wasn't able to put 2+2 together because he himself was being indoctrinated, his symptoms would have been mentioned at some point and a crew member would have piece it together.

1. I'm pointing ou that I did from the start of the topic.
2. Not an assuption. Even if you cut the optional stuff, that is still alot of exposer to reaper tech.
3. You have yet to prove your point on the issue...Which is my point.
4. No, he has to show the symtoms first. Look at Dr. Kenson, when did she show she was indcotriante before she lead you to the trap?

[Nemesis1812]

 Hi to all,

I used to be an avid supporter of IDT, to the point where I thought BW might'be actually inlcuded the real ending in the disc and IDK....maybe time bombed it:O

Then I went to having massive doubts, where now I'm finally at the point that I'm starting to belive again.

One thing keeps nagging at me though.  If it is truly Indoc then why does BW endorse synthesis as the "best: ending?

Sorry if this has been answered before.

P.S. I'm new on BSN so go easy on me:blush:

[dreman9999]

Nemesis1812 wrote...

 Hi to all,

I used to be an avid supporter of IDT, to the point where I thought BW might'be actually inlcuded the real ending in the disc and IDK....maybe time bombed it:O

Then I went to having massive doubts, where now I'm finally at the point that I'm starting to belive again.

One thing keeps nagging at me though.  If it is truly Indoc then why does BW endorse synthesis as the "best: ending?

Sorry if this has been answered before.

P.S. I'm new on BSN so go easy on me:blush:

It has to make sense first to be endorsed. Also, we won't no till EC.

[dreman9999]

NOT HERE NOW.

[Rip504]

TIM tries to Indoc Shepard,and yes the Reapers control TIM... But they all fail,Shepard gets a taste of the rainbow and G's.

[DnVill]

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Do you want me to tellyou everything in detail? Read the opening comment of the topic. I not going to repat everything in detail becaus eyou don' want ti read it.
2. The other reaper stuff is enough to start the indoctriantion process.
3.No,it was justyou sticking your head in the mud. You have yet to prove it was anything else.
4.And yet, we could not tell till after She got you into the trap....That's my point. Befre she got you to the trap, you could not tell.

1. What? I never asked you to in the first place, I was just pointing out that you hadn't actually explained what you claimed you had.

2. Assumption.

3. So having a different opinion than yours is "sticking my head in the mud"? i'm not the one in denial about the endings.

4. She was already indoctrinated fully and being deliberately used to fool us, Shepard wouldn't be like that whilst it's happening. Even if he wasn't able to put 2+2 together because he himself was being indoctrinated, his symptoms would have been mentioned at some point and a crew member would have piece it together.

1. I'm pointing ou that I did from the start of the topic.
2. Not an assuption. Even if you cut the optional stuff, that is still alot of exposer to reaper tech.
3. You have yet to prove your point on the issue...Which is my point.
4. No, he has to show the symtoms first. Look at Dr. Kenson, when did she show she was indcotriante before she lead you to the trap?

1. Well that wasn't what you said, mister.

2. Exposure =/= Indoctrination 100% of the time, so to say Shep is indoctrinated because of exposure is an assumption.

3. I tried my hardest to explain my point, and all I got in response was a brick wall to talk to, so I have given up on that front.

4. And when he shows the symptoms or talks about them, someone would have noticed the change and flagged it. Also, we don't know Kenson the way Sheps crew know him, so we don't have anything to compare her behaviour to in a way that would let us know whether or not she is acting indoctrinatedly.

[dreman9999]

DnVill wrote...

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

Given how that endings are and what it means if it's true....Yes.
What makes more sense...Indoctrination or the endings as they are.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

DnVill wrote...

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

Given how that endings are and what it means if it's true....Yes.
What makes more sense...Indoctrination or the endings as they are.

I'd rather be stupid than in denial, and that question is SO not the question at hand:

What makes more sense... Indoctrination theory or bad writing and time restraints?

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

DnVill wrote...

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

Given how that endings are and what it means if it's true....Yes.
What makes more sense...Indoctrination or the endings as they are.

The endings as they are makes much more sense. 

Would you like me to copy and paste my long post from before to explain?