867 réponses à ce sujet

[DnVill]

dreman9999 wrote...

DnVill wrote...

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

Given how that endings are and what it means if it's true....Yes.
What makes more sense...Indoctrination or the endings as they are.

nice calling anyone who does not agree with you stupid. You're only adding a bad rep to IT believers, how mature.

The Reapers are in the verge of winning, they could wipe out the fleet on Sol. Yet they took the risk of trying to kill or keep Shepard alive for indoctrination even though he's gonna die there with blood loss.

[Gorkan86]

IT supporters can't ignore the fact that Citadel indoctrinate people, because it is the reaper tech.
Or reaper tech does not work anymore?

[Nemesis1812]

dreman9999 wrote...

Nemesis1812 wrote...

 Hi to all,

I used to be an avid supporter of IDT, to the point where I thought BW might'be actually inlcuded the real ending in the disc and IDK....maybe time bombed it:O

Then I went to having massive doubts, where now I'm finally at the point that I'm starting to belive again.

One thing keeps nagging at me though.  If it is truly Indoc then why does BW endorse synthesis as the "best: ending?

Sorry if this has been answered before.

P.S. I'm new on BSN so go easy on me:blush:

It has to make sense first to be endorsed. Also, we won't no till EC.

Nothing about the last 15 mins makes any sense at all, but that is not what I mean.  Perhaps I should rephrase...  Something that I've seen posted over and over in this forum is that BW favors synthesis.

Why would they do that if it is Indoc?  Or is this part of the whole let's indoctrinate the player, break the 4th wall type of thing?

[DnVill]

Gorkan86 wrote...

IT supporters can't ignore the fact that Citadel indoctrinate people, because it is the reaper tech.
Or reaper tech does not work anymore?

The Council has been indoctrinated from the start. That's why they have been trying to stop Shepard from doing anything against the Reapers.

How's that for another IT theory? 

[jijeebo]

DnVill wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

IT supporters can't ignore the fact that Citadel indoctrinate people, because it is the reaper tech.
Or reaper tech does not work anymore?

The Council has been indoctrinated from the start. That's why they have been trying to stop Shepard from doing anything against the Reapers.

How's that for another IT theory? 

I can see it now...

Ah, yes... "Indoctrinated", we have dismissed that claim, isn't that right Councillor Harbinger?

[Dendio1]

Space kid in the beginning seals the deal.

Nobody notices him but shepard. He vanishes in a deliberate scene where even shepard emotes the wtf face. We hear deliberate reaper growls and dream of the same kid through out the game. In the end the kid gets in your head showing you hallucinations that explain how to use the crucible. Also the kid is ghostly now.....and part of the citadel

Obviously shepard is living in mind screw throughout ME3. Call it whatever you want.

Modifié par Dendio1, 10 mai 2012 - 08:43 .

[Humakt83]

Second and third dream sequences are enough evidence of indoctrination for the people who know the lore.

[Gorkan86]

Humakt83 wrote...

Second and third dream sequences are enough evidence of indoctrination for the people who know the lore.

Dreams can't be evidence.

[Rip504]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Second and third dream sequences are enough evidence of indoctrination for the people who know the lore.

Dreams can't be evidence.

As stated in the Mass Effect series,if you missed that point...

[balance5050]

Humakt83 wrote...

Second and third dream sequences are enough evidence of indoctrination for the people who know the lore.

It's pretty obvious - trust the kid and you lose.

[balance5050]

Nemesis1812 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Nemesis1812 wrote...

 Hi to all,

I used to be an avid supporter of IDT, to the point where I thought BW might'be actually inlcuded the real ending in the disc and IDK....maybe time bombed it:O

Then I went to having massive doubts, where now I'm finally at the point that I'm starting to belive again.

One thing keeps nagging at me though.  If it is truly Indoc then why does BW endorse synthesis as the "best: ending?

Sorry if this has been answered before.

P.S. I'm new on BSN so go easy on me:blush:

It has to make sense first to be endorsed. Also, we won't no till EC.

Nothing about the last 15 mins makes any sense at all, but that is not what I mean.  Perhaps I should rephrase...  Something that I've seen posted over and over in this forum is that BW favors synthesis.

Why would they do that if it is Indoc?  Or is this part of the whole let's indoctrinate the player, break the 4th wall type of thing?

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 10 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[Bob3terd]

Significant claims require significant evidence, i dont rule out IT but i dont endorse it.
Why are you so bothered if people believe it or not? The fact others have their doubts, create your own doubts?

[jijeebo]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

"Your decisions matter" - that's a personal favourite. <_<

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

You must understand, it fits. The reapers lie, they lied, they DO NOT disclose any more information than they have to. It's a meta game that we are playing here. Synthesis is the best ending Mr. Gamble? C'MON!

Modifié par balance5050, 10 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[Gorkan86]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

You must understand, it fits. The reapers lie, they lied, they DO NOT disclose any more information than they have to. It's a meta game that we are playing here. Synthesis is the best ending Mr. Gamble? C'MON!

Reapers not always lie.

[balance5050]

Gorkan86 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

You must understand, it fits. The reapers lie, they lied, they DO NOT disclose any more information than they have to. It's a meta game that we are playing here. Synthesis is the best ending Mr. Gamble? C'MON!

Reapers not always lie.

They don't always tell the truth either.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

You must understand, it fits. The reapers lie, they lied, they DO NOT disclose any more information than they have to. It's a meta game that we are playing here. Synthesis is the best ending Mr. Gamble? C'MON!

So according to IT we were sold not only an game without an ending but BioWare has been activly screwing with the heads of their whole fan base? Whats the pay off for them? 

Make great game
Alienate Fanbase
???
Profit

[balance5050]

If the kid was telling the truth then the reapers were lying. If the kid was lying then the reapers were telling the truth.

Someone in this game is lying to Shepard.

[Tom Lehrer]

I smell more straw man.

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

" we want people to feel what Shepard feels, not just react to what's on the screen" - Casey Hudson


Straight from the horses mouth.

There is also one about the ending not be A B or C but we all saw how that worked out. I would not call him a liar but he is not honest.

Cant trust PR hype.

You must understand, it fits. The reapers lie, they lied, they DO NOT disclose any more information than they have to. It's a meta game that we are playing here. Synthesis is the best ending Mr. Gamble? C'MON!

So according to IT we were sold not only an game without an ending but BioWare has been activly screwing with the heads of their whole fan base? Whats the pay off for them? 

Make great game
Alienate Fanbase
???
Profit

Yes, this is the most controversial ending in gaming history. The news that the "clarification" and the "extended scenes" (Shepard_Alive scene) have actually fixed the ending will spread far and wide and may be the most successful DLC of all time.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

Yes, this is the most controversial ending in gaming history. The news that the "clarification" and the "extended scenes" (Shepard_Alive scene) have actually fixed the ending will spread far and wide and may be the most successful DLC of all time.

Do you understand the definition of the words clarification and free?

From my post before

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give us the real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single
example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 10 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[hchadw]

dreman9999 wrote...

 Thing I don't understand is how someone can't see that Shepard is being indoctrinated even if we take the ending as is. There signs of it through at that game and at the end of the game itself. It shown most of all when TIM tries to control Shepard. That should of been the hit on the head to make everyone realize that Shepard is under the process of indoctionation ...But before we get started, let go into the set up, back ground and defination of indoctrination in ME.


http://masseffect.wi...Indoctrination 
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

.......
Now, the thing you need to understand is the Shepard had 3 years ofon and off contact with the reapers, giving time for a foundation if indoctrination. To put him in the process of it. In the lore it state Husk and reaper agents give off indoctrination waves.

"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. "
....And dragon teeth can give off indoctrination waves as well....http://masseffect.wi...ing_Survey_Team 
This means Shepard  had ample time with indoctrination waves to start the indoctrination process from the time he landed on eden prime in a ME1,and any form of facing reaper tech or reaper forces built on that process. Shepard doesn't  even need  to be involed for the events of arrival  for the indoctrinatination process to start.
What that mean is slowly the reaper are getting a back to Shep's mind. This means they can effect him. This is shown in the fall of earth. The child Shepard meets has no indication he is real being that no one other then Shepard telks with him, he doesn't even talk likea normal child.

Then add the odditly of the dreams ....You have to note  that  the reapers  can manipulate dremas...http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s

This is shown in ARRIVAL AS WELL.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s 


 In the dreams sign of indoctrination show up, whipers and oily shadows.http://www.youtube.c...fuWNkIUf0#t=31s 
Every person how is indoctrinated complains of Whispers and the rechni Queen when explaining indoctination talks of oil shadows, we comferm she is talking about indoctrination when we meet her again in ME3 and gives the same explination for it agian.

But the most indication sign is at the end ofthe game.....When TIM tries to control Shepard....http://www.youtube.c...fuWNkIUf0#t=31s  

When TIM gets a hold of Sheps mind(If it is real), Shepard hears the same whispers in the dream and sees oily shadows agian.  He has head aches and here buzzing noises. He loses some motor function  .....These are all signs of indoctrination.  So even if you take the ending as it is, Shepard is still show he is the process of indoctrination. And as we all know, that type of indoctriantion is only something that happens over time. As for why TIM controls Anderson their is one way to explain it. Anderson has benn in constate range of reaper, constatly fighting hush, and face Paul Grayson in ME: ASCENSION....Anderson has ample chance for the process of indoctrinatio to happe to his....Note:this is just it you take that scean as real.

Now with the star child....Note how supmisive Shepard is to him. How Shepard hangs on every word...Now look at this...http://www.youtube.c...tBN70xaM#t=290s
Sound familer?
And on last note...The reapers can make the people they control fall asleep....

"The Reapers hit the eject button on the airlock, jettisoning the bodies into the cold vacuum of space.Then they plotted a new course—too quickly for Grayson to catch the final destination—and made thejump to light speed again. Finally, despite his heroic struggle to oppose their will, the Reapers closed hiseyes and made him fall asleep."
(Page 72).ME:RETRIBUTION ...
At the end,Shepard passes out...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VHXN3xtUu44#t=532s

My point is...even if you take the ending as it is. Shepard still is under indoctrination.

Your just about Dead on OP.... Its going to be hard to explain it though... There ARE many people on this forum that Have not read the books....................and Seem to have issues Actually Reading in General so ignore the Nerdrage Idiotic Responses...............    people should really go read the novels.......................but they wont...............they prefer BLISS!

[balance5050]

hchadw wrote...

Your just about Dead on OP.... Its going to be hard to explain it though... There ARE many people on this forum that Have not read the books....................and Seem to have issues Actually Reading in General so ignore the Nerdrage Idiotic Responses...............    people should really go read the novels.......................but they wont...............they prefer BLISS!

Synthetic bliss;)

[Ariella]

Dendio1 wrote...

Space kid in the beginning seals the deal.

Nobody notices him but shepard. He vanishes in a deliberate scene where even shepard emotes the wtf face. We hear deliberate reaper growls and dream of the same kid through out the game. In the end the kid gets in your head showing you hallucinations that explain how to use the crucible. Also the kid is ghostly now.....and part of the citadel

Obviously shepard is living in mind screw throughout ME3. Call it whatever you want.

I don't see how the kid seals the deal at all. From the very beginning, the look on Shepard's face as she's watching the kid playing in the park below her room. There's a familiarity in that smile. She's probably watched the same kid playing there on and off for a while, and Bioware has gone on record (check the art book) as the kid being represenative of everyone Shepard couldn't save.

Let's see, Shepard has just had the responsibility for the whole war dropped on her shoulders, has been trying to find a solution to deal with the Reapers for a dog's age, and is feeling the weight of all that responsibility, The dreams aren't indoctrination but stress, and we don't know if the Cat is showing Shepard those, or if it's just artistic interperitation as to what Shep's thinking. These are all story telling devices, not the story itself.