867 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Since it seems to work so well in the minds of the IT people I think from now on, no matter the situation, when someone says something doesn't make sense I'm going to shout "It doesn't have to! It's indoctrination!".

And when they try to argue with me about it, I'll just repeat "Doesn't matter, indoctrination!" over and over.

Your assuming that the I.T. doesnt make any sense. There is more pointing to it then anything out there right now so what is your beef?

The I.T. has to make sense or we will not support it! So Yes it does matter!

[ThinkIntegral]

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


So what are you saying? That EA with the tightening of its budget, evidenced by the staff layoffs, trusted in BioWare to more or less bet the farm on delivering a game with no ending because they knew, somehow with good reason, that the fans woud love it?  Then, somehow, because the fans weren't smart enough to pick up on what they were trying to do, except a few, they decide to create and release a DLC at additional cost to them? 

Those notes are kind of meaningless without an explanation of the thought process of the person who wrote it. Not to mention they are "rough" notes, which means they were subject to change.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not saying any of this as fact and it's just speculation so don't hang off every word I say.

One could presume that the ending could have been rushed, however, and this COULD have been there attempt at winning themselves more time, exposing the evils of their bosse's, money grubbing, fiscal quarter meeting ways.

I'm not telling you what to believe, but you should know what some believe just by the title of the thread. Also, even though a LOT of people call the ending garbage, it has a way of letting you see what you want. And that's what we're fighting for, what we WANT.

Plus post ending DLC causes statements like this make alot more sense. 

I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Expose the evil of their bosses? Really? The subisdiary likely wants to give an indirect FU to the people that own it and give it funding?

I don't know seems like it with threads like these...

What makes sense about that statement? He's just talking about DLC for ME3 in general, that's the question that was asked to him.

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Those
notes are kind of meaningless without an explanation of the thought
process of the person who wrote it. Not to mention they are "rough"
notes, which means they were subject to change.

Whether
you think the notes have meaning or not, you should now that Mac
Walters specifically took this off his desk and gave it to Geoff
Keighly. Which means he handed this peice of paper to a gaming
journalist knowing that the fans were going to see it sooner or later.

Yeah but it was pre-release work; draft work.  The Final Hours app was to show the developmental process, so that makes sense. 

On a separate note, did Walters explain everything that he meant on those notes?  Does "Speculation for everyone" mean "speculation about what happened to everyone in the ME universe" or "speculation by every fan on what the ending meant"?

[balance5050]

I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt really.

He was asked about DLC and started talking about the ending being on the disc when the game isn't even out yet.

http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s 

Modifié par balance5050, 11 mai 2012 - 05:14 .

[KevShep]

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

[ThinkIntegral]

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.  Or did they somehow get sloppy in their execution?

Modifié par ThinkIntegral, 11 mai 2012 - 05:15 .

[balance5050]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.

Noobs can have the face value ending, and long time fans looking for something more get I.T..

[KevShep]

balance5050 wrote...


I won't say they did, but you should know that there's audio of joker coming in to save the day that's on the disc, but not on the game.

Bioware asked EA for 6 more months, and they got 3.

Final hours app talks of Indoctrination gameplay sequence, that was mysteriously dropped.

Bioware LOVES doing DLC.

Kid: tell me another story about the Shepard.

Stargazer: Ok... ONE MORE STORY.

Actually only one indoctrination gameplay "mechanism" was dropped, not indoctrination itself! the only part that was dropped was one that your shepard would be taken away from the palyers control. It also mentions that they were in the final stages of development...so this means that there is indoctrination in the game as it would be too late to change it completely.

[ThinkIntegral]

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.

Noobs can have the face value ending, and long time fans looking for something more get I.T..

Inflammatory as always.

[balance5050]

KevShep wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


I won't say they did, but you should know that there's audio of joker coming in to save the day that's on the disc, but not on the game.

Bioware asked EA for 6 more months, and they got 3.

Final hours app talks of Indoctrination gameplay sequence, that was mysteriously dropped.

Bioware LOVES doing DLC.

Kid: tell me another story about the Shepard.

Stargazer: Ok... ONE MORE STORY.

Actually only one indoctrination gameplay "mechanism" was dropped, not indoctrination itself! the only part that was dropped was one that your shepard would be taken away from the palyers control. It also mentions that they were in the final stages of development...so this means that there is indoctrination in the game as it would be too late to change it completely.

Right, thanks for clarifying 

[KevShep]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.  Or did they somehow get sloppy in their execution?

 No. They knew that not everyone would see it. !"Speculations From Everyone"!

[Unholyknight800]

Hi

[balance5050]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Noobs can have the face value ending, and long time fans looking for something more get I.T..

Inflammatory as always.

LOL! I'm sorry! I didn't know you would be offended by that...

Modifié par balance5050, 11 mai 2012 - 05:20 .

[ThinkIntegral]

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.  Or did they somehow get sloppy in their execution?

 No. They knew that not everyone would see it. !"Speculations From Everyone"!

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

[ThinkIntegral]

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Noobs can have the face value ending, and long time fans looking for something more get I.T..

Inflammatory as always.

LOL! I'm sorry! I didn't know you would be offended by that...

Actually I'm not, just pointing out a habit of yours. 

[KevShep]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...


I just want a clear picture as to how it all fits, in and outside of the game, that's all.  I mean I'm not saying it's impossible that's what they may have intended and then had their time cut short by EA. I could only imagine though that if that were the case, they would at least put stronger hints so that everyone would get it, unless they severely overestimated the intelligence of their fans?

Why would they make it easy...Indoctrination is not an easy thing to see through so it stands that it HAS to be hard. Its really not that hard to begin with(for me).

I don't know, so everybody can feel content with finishing the story arc and the game? That the player understood the goals and the obstacles and they can walk away from the game feeling they accomplished beating those obstacles?

Are you suggesting then that BioWare just severely overestimated the intelligence of their audience? Because judging by the initial reaction, that's what it looks like if that's the case.  Or did they somehow get sloppy in their execution?

 No. They knew that not everyone would see it. !"Speculations From Everyone"!

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

If we knew that then there would be no need for speculations! That means that it most likely tells us that they want us to figute out what it all means, the endings per say!

[balance5050]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

Basically, all he wanted was for you to think about the ending. The entire thing stems from Shepard being alive when he was supposed to die.

Notice at the top: Shepard Alive... Sense of Hope!

 

Modifié par balance5050, 11 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[ThinkIntegral]

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

Basically, all he wanted was for you to think about the ending. The entire thing stems from Shepard being alive when he was supposed to die.

And from that you derive IT?

[balance5050]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

Basically, all he wanted was for you to think about the ending. The entire thing stems from Shepard being alive when he was supposed to die.

And from that you derive IT?

I derive it by speculating.

There are thousands of us.

Modifié par balance5050, 11 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[KevShep]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

Speculations about IT or to the question that he wrote above it?  Did he ever explain what he intended by that statement?

Basically, all he wanted was for you to think about the ending. The entire thing stems from Shepard being alive when he was supposed to die.

And from that you derive IT?

No there is alot of evidence pointing to him/her begin indoctrinated. Thats where the I.T. comes from.

[nicethugbert]

But, who did the indoctrinating? Maybe the Protheans discovered indoctrination tech and the Prothean Beacon indoctrinated Shepard to fight the reapers. Just look at Javik.

[dreman9999]

nicethugbert wrote...

But, who did the indoctrinating? Maybe the Protheans discovered indoctrination tech and the Prothean Beacon indoctrinated Shepard to fight the reapers. Just look at Javik.

Shepard has 3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech.....Reaper tech indoctrinates..... I think we can all guess how it happened.

[Heg28]

I don´t know if it´s wise to put new speculations in this thread by the flamewar that´s going on here, but I would like to add to the stuff the OP said.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing
or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being
watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the
Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

So as stated in the OP, this codex entry fits perfectly the TIM situation at the end. You got alien voices, headaches and buzzing or ringing in your ears. It is pretty obvious to me that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard at this state, since they are controlling TIM and TIM tries to convince you of his belives. Shepards strong will and the fact that we already know that TIM is indoctrinated leaves this strategy doomed to fail though.

When you go up to the Starchild, Shepard gets out of character and partly believes what the child says without questioning it, and he gets more unsure about his believes ("I don´t know."). Again this fits the codex entry:

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

I am sure that this is another attempt to indoctrinate him, whether the kid is real or not. Since the TIM strategy failed, they try a different approach and it works a lot better now. So what I´m saying is that even if you take the plot for real, the child conversation is an indoctrination attempt, too.

So up to this point it still makes all sense in my opinion, even if it´s not all a hallucination in the end. The problem with the end sequences stays though... They don´t fit any logical explanation that I can think of, if you take the ending for real. In addition we have then to assume that the breathing scene takes place on the citadel, despite the fact that it´s blowing up completely.
Someone even pointed out that, if you have a low EMS, your Squadmates die while charging to the beam, you can definitly see there bodies. After the landing of the Normandy they came out after Joker alive and healthy. This just can´t be real! And no, I refuse to believe that BW would f**k up that badly!

Modifié par Heg28, 11 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[dreman9999]

Heg28 wrote...

I don´t know if it´s wise to put new speculations in this thread by the flamewar that´s going on here, but I would like to add to the stuff the OP said.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing
or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being
watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the
Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

So as stated in the OP, this codex entry fits perfectly the TIM situation at the end. You got alien voices, headaches and buzzing or ringing in your ears. It is pretty obvious to me that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard at this state, since they are controlling TIM and TIM tries to convince you of his belives. Shepards strong will and the fact that we already know that TIM is indoctrinated leaves this strategy doomed to fail though.

When you go up to the Starchild, Shepard gets out of character and partly believes what the child says without questioning it, and he gets more unsure about his believes ("I don´t know."). Again this fits the codex entry:

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

I am sure that this is another attempt to indoctrinate him, whether the kid is real or not. Since the TIM strategy failed, they try a different approach and it works a lot better now. So what I´m saying is that even if you take the plot for real, the child conversation is an indoctrination attempt, too.

So up to this point it still makes all sense in my opinion, even if it´s not all a hallucination in the end. The problem with the end sequences stays though... They don´t fit any logical explanation that I can think of, if you take the ending for real. In addition we have then to assume that the breathing scene takes place on the citadel, despite the fact that it´s blowing up completely.
Someone even pointed out that, if you have a low EMS, your Squadmates die while charging to the beam, you can definitly see there bodies. After the landing of the Normandy they came out after Joker alive and healthy. This just can´t be real! And no, I refuse to believe that BW would f**k up that badly!

I like this one...He understands.

[Heg28]

dreman9999 wrote...

I like this one...He understands.

Yeah, but only that part  The end sequences are still a mistery to me. I can´t come up with a good explanation for them, just that they can´t be real. I mean, as I said, the citadel explodes, yet you are still alive, and you can see walking dead if EMS is low enough.

Anti-IT guys argue that the rubble in the end looks exactly like the Citadel parts from above the tube you are shooting at. A video can be found here: www.youtube.com/watch. Honestly, I can´t tell whether or not that is right or wrong. I just see rubble there and no clear evidence of London buildings or Citadel parts. For the sake of speculation, lets assume those are the parts from the citadel as shown in the video. That suits our current claim that the ending could be real, but still indoctrination, anyway.

Since I am convinced that the Starchild is a second indoctrination attempt, it would make sense that the three decisions you take at the end don´t really do anything, but just are symbolic for what you decide to do. For instance is shooting the damn tube the sign that you want the Reapers still dead at all cost. I don´t know why the tube should trigger the red explosion anyway. Then it explodes and Shepard gets catched in the explosion.
As stated above, I can explain the following cinematic only as a dream sequence. That would mean the citadel doesn´t blow up and Shepard is still on the ground, because he was knocked back by the explosion, probably covered in rubble falling from above. That could be where he takes the breath.

A possible follow up would be Shepard regaining consciousness and firing the crucible.

That scenario would be quite cool in my opinion, but the other two choices are not fitting into the equation I think. For instance the control option, do the reapers want Shepard to do essentially a Frank Grimes on the cables and just die? Or dive into the abyss on synthesis? They need him alive, or else the indoctrination makes no sense. If it were to stop him from firing the crucible, then just leave him dying downstairs. How does this fit? What do you guys think?

[Tom Lehrer]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DnVill wrote...

yet another thread about "its indoctrination or your stupid".

Given how that endings are and what it means if it's true....Yes.
What makes more sense...Indoctrination or the endings as they are.

The endings as they are makes much more sense. 

Would you like me to copy and paste my long post from before to explain?

You really said that with a straight face? Ok...explain how synthises happened? How do you combine organics with synthetics to the very dna?

Two words: Bad writing