867 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyiia]

dreman9999 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Here's a rather interesting point, ME3 is supposedly, according to Bioware, a perfect place for a new player to start the trilogy. Very little of the actual details about what indoctrination entails is told in ME3, we see it but we're not giving a lot of information as opposed to ME1 and ME2. How is a new player to the series supposed to understand that Shepard has been indoctrinated?

Outside game sources are not valid, you should not have to go outside of the game to understand it.

By reading the codex and listen to what everyone said about past event. On a new game playthrough, everyone goes into detail about everything that happen in the ME series. New players get the recap, old players who import don't get the recap. Understand?
Beside, an ending that we have is not even geared to the new players anyway.

Also, those are out side sourse are put in the games of the series any way. ME:revilation, retruidution, asension, invasion and etc have all been metioned in ME1,2, and 3. The fact the Kai Lang is in ME3 means they are a valid source.

Have you actually read the codex in ME3?  It goes into basically no detail about anything. It doesn't even mention dreams at all. I'll reserve judgement on the recap having not actually seen it.

And no, they are not valid sources for a new player to be drawing information from. Bioware said ME3 is a good place to start for new players. They did not say read this, then play ME3. For it to be valid in ME3, it has to be explained in ME3. Kai Leng is explained in ME3.

[sorentoft]

dreman9999 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

Because what you see is what you get. IT is a product made out of people's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

Indoctrination is a key part of ME. The fact that TIm control Shepard is a clear sign that Shepardis in the process of indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

Elyiia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Here's a rather interesting point, ME3 is supposedly, according to Bioware, a perfect place for a new player to start the trilogy. Very little of the actual details about what indoctrination entails is told in ME3, we see it but we're not giving a lot of information as opposed to ME1 and ME2. How is a new player to the series supposed to understand that Shepard has been indoctrinated?

Outside game sources are not valid, you should not have to go outside of the game to understand it.

By reading the codex and listen to what everyone said about past event. On a new game playthrough, everyone goes into detail about everything that happen in the ME series. New players get the recap, old players who import don't get the recap. Understand?
Beside, an ending that we have is not even geared to the new players anyway.

Also, those are out side sourse are put in the games of the series any way. ME:revilation, retruidution, asension, invasion and etc have all been metioned in ME1,2, and 3. The fact the Kai Lang is in ME3 means they are a valid source.

Have you actually read the codex in ME3?  It goes into basically no detail about anything. It doesn't even mention dreams at all. I'll reserve judgement on the recap having not actually seen it.

And no, they are not valid sources for a new player to be drawing information from. Bioware said ME3 is a good place to start for new players. They did not say read this, then play ME3. For it to be valid in ME3, it has to be explained in ME3. Kai Leng is explained in ME3.

Yes, I have. It used the codex from ME1-2 and and even more.  I'm using infor from the codex in my topic and indoctrintion as explained in the codex is no different then what's in the game. So yes, new players can us the codex to understand what is going on. And nothingis stoping new player from playing ME1-2...Remeber, ME3 is a JUMPING POINT.
And yes they are. Everything that happens to Grayson and what happens in retribution is explained in the plot of ME3. Asension is explained in ME2. Revilation is expline in ME1..They are valid source because the game uses them in their plot.

[dreman9999]

sorentoft wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

Because what you see is what you get. IT is a product made out of people's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

Indoctrination is a key part of ME. The fact that TIm control Shepard is a clear sign that Shepardis in the process of indoctrination.

...

What was ME1 all about if Indoctrination is not a key part of ME?
Also, how is TIM controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctination and hear whispers and  sees oily shadows once TIM walks in the room?

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 02:29 .

[SoloPala]

Prothean VI on Thessia doesn't detect indoctrination in Shepard, so no.

[Joykilledme]

I'm sorry Joc I'd agree with you but I think the point is there is far to many connecting points from book to book game to game that go hand and hand with everything that is happening to Shepard in ME3. If the dreams were different and didn't have any of the things we'd come to know as signs of Indoctrination then yeah... I'd say Shepard could just be overly stressed or... whatever but there is just TO MANY coincidences for it to be just that.... a coincidence.

[dreman9999]

SoloPala wrote...

Prothean VI on Thessia doesn't detect indoctrination in Shepard, so no.

The prothean VI can be easilly fooled. Remeber this is the same VI that did not detect  the reaper agents that stoped the protheans crucible  project. This has been explain how many times?

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 02:38 .

[dreman9999]

Joykilledme wrote...

I'm sorry Joc I'd agree with you but I think the point is there is far to many connecting points from book to book game to game that go hand and hand with everything that is happening to Shepard in ME3. If the dreams were different and didn't have any of the things we'd come to know as signs of Indoctrination then yeah... I'd say Shepard could just be overly stressed or... whatever but there is just TO MANY coincidences for it to be just that.... a coincidence.

And then there's that last bit with TIM when he controls Shepard. With the oily shadows and whispers. And the fact that cerberus never shown any form of instant indocrination.

[xsdob]

I don't. But you can see whatever you want to see because this is your story, so if a dream is what you want than go ahead and believe it.

I just take the view that the endings are what happened, the catalyst wasn't lying but just explaining the options available and it's own view on them, and that things worked out good after the credits, crazy I know but if I can believe this than nothing says your not allowed to believe IT.

[Elyiia]

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, I have. It used the codex from ME1-2 and and even more.  I'm using infor from the codex in my topic and indoctrintion as explained in the codex is no different then what's in the game. So yes, new players can us the codex to understand what is going on. And nothingis stoping new player from playing ME1-2...Remeber, ME3 is a JUMPING POINT.
And yes they are. Everything that happens to Grayson and what happens in retribution is explained in the plot of ME3. Asension is explained in ME2. Revilation is expline in ME1..They are valid source because the game uses them in their plot.

The codex from ME3 mention 2 symptoms, neither of which involve oily shadows in dreams. So that pretty much excludes any new players right there. Bioware's logic is you could jump in AND COMPLETE the Mass Effect series from just three. There is no other way to interpret their statement.

And no, they are not. They specifically said that new players could jump into ME3 without needing outside information. Anything else is outside information.

And since I'm going to sleep, I have two points. On your first play through, did you honestly get IT in it's entirety from the game or did you convince yourself after someone else brought it up on the forums?

And again, since no one ever can, explain "Shepard defeated the Reapers and became a legend" this happens no matter what. Are you really trying to say that Shepard is seeing this message in his head? Because if he's not, then it happened.

[jijeebo]

I really, really don't see my Shep becoming indoctrinated.

I see him getting auto-dialogued and becoming obsessed with some random kid because it's "deep and artistic"... But not indoctrinated.

[dreman9999]

Elyiia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, I have. It used the codex from ME1-2 and and even more.  I'm using infor from the codex in my topic and indoctrintion as explained in the codex is no different then what's in the game. So yes, new players can us the codex to understand what is going on. And nothingis stoping new player from playing ME1-2...Remeber, ME3 is a JUMPING POINT.
And yes they are. Everything that happens to Grayson and what happens in retribution is explained in the plot of ME3. Asension is explained in ME2. Revilation is expline in ME1..They are valid source because the game uses them in their plot.

The codex from ME3 mention 2 symptoms, neither of which involve oily shadows in dreams. So that pretty much excludes any new players right there. Bioware's logic is you could jump in AND COMPLETE the Mass Effect series from just three. There is no other way to interpret their statement.

And no, they are not. They specifically said that new players could jump into ME3 without needing outside information. Anything else is outside information.

And since I'm going to sleep, I have two points. On your first play through, did you honestly get IT in it's entirety from the game or did you convince yourself after someone else brought it up on the forums?

And again, since no one ever can, explain "Shepard defeated the Reapers and became a legend" this happens no matter what. Are you really trying to say that Shepard is seeing this message in his head? Because if he's not, then it happened.

But the richni queen talkes about oily shadow in ME3 AS WELL...
Alse, ascention and revilation is stated in the codex. Retribution is meantion wat the sacturary and the cerberus base. Revilation is mention at Grayson Acadamy. So Yes, the books are mentioned in the plot.

Also......on that last bit....How de we know it's really happening? And we don't have the games ending yet ether.

[jijeebo]

Elyiia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, I have. It used the codex from ME1-2 and and even more.  I'm using infor from the codex in my topic and indoctrintion as explained in the codex is no different then what's in the game. So yes, new players can us the codex to understand what is going on. And nothingis stoping new player from playing ME1-2...Remeber, ME3 is a JUMPING POINT.
And yes they are. Everything that happens to Grayson and what happens in retribution is explained in the plot of ME3. Asension is explained in ME2. Revilation is expline in ME1..They are valid source because the game uses them in their plot.

The codex from ME3 mention 2 symptoms, neither of which involve oily shadows in dreams. So that pretty much excludes any new players right there. Bioware's logic is you could jump in AND COMPLETE the Mass Effect series from just three. There is no other way to interpret their statement.

And no, they are not. They specifically said that new players could jump into ME3 without needing outside information. Anything else is outside information.

And since I'm going to sleep, I have two points. On your first play through, did you honestly get IT in it's entirety from the game or did you convince yourself after someone else brought it up on the forums?

And again, since no one ever can, explain "Shepard defeated the Reapers and became a legend" this happens no matter what. Are you really trying to say that Shepard is seeing this message in his head? Because if he's not, then it happened.

My Shepard often has nightmares involving giant pop-ups telling him to buy DLC.

[SoloPala]

dreman9999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Prothean VI on Thessia doesn't detect indoctrination in Shepard, so no.

The prothean VI can be easilly fooled. Remeber this is the same VI that did not detect  the reaper agents that stoped the protheans crucible  project. This has been explain how many times?

Assumption.  The game literally tells you you are not indoctrinated at this point, but keep believing.

Modifié par SoloPala, 10 mai 2012 - 03:04 .

[dreman9999]

xsdob wrote...

I don't. But you can see whatever you want to see because this is your story, so if a dream is what you want than go ahead and believe it.

I just take the view that the endings are what happened, the catalyst wasn't lying but just explaining the options available and it's own view on them, and that things worked out good after the credits, crazy I know but if I can believe this than nothing says your not allowed to believe IT.

But my point is not the dreams are an indicator...It the confontation with TIM at the end of the game. How is TIM contorly Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctrination? Cerberus has never shown any instate way to indoctrinate people, cerberus chas to implant them first or they have to have a form of indoctrination first, like how they controled the husk on sacturary.

[TSA_383]

Elyiia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Here's a rather interesting point, ME3 is supposedly, according to Bioware, a perfect place for a new player to start the trilogy. Very little of the actual details about what indoctrination entails is told in ME3, we see it but we're not giving a lot of information as opposed to ME1 and ME2. How is a new player to the series supposed to understand that Shepard has been indoctrinated?

Outside game sources are not valid, you should not have to go outside of the game to understand it.

By reading the codex and listen to what everyone said about past event. On a new game playthrough, everyone goes into detail about everything that happen in the ME series. New players get the recap, old players who import don't get the recap. Understand?
Beside, an ending that we have is not even geared to the new players anyway.

Also, those are out side sourse are put in the games of the series any way. ME:revilation, retruidution, asension, invasion and etc have all been metioned in ME1,2, and 3. The fact the Kai Lang is in ME3 means they are a valid source.

Have you actually read the codex in ME3?  It goes into basically no detail about anything. It doesn't even mention dreams at all. I'll reserve judgement on the recap having not actually seen it.

And no, they are not valid sources for a new player to be drawing information from. Bioware said ME3 is a good place to start for new players. They did not say read this, then play ME3. For it to be valid in ME3, it has to be explained in ME3. Kai Leng is explained in ME3.

I'd assume that's Bioware's PR department making that statement, rather than the writers - makes sense from a commercial perspective, they don't want to put off new players by implying that they'll need to play 60+ hours of previous games to understand a story...

Fact is, there's no precedent throughout the series for anyone coming in contact with a reaper/reaper artefact for any sort of extended period and not getting indoctrinated...

Saren - Came in contact with reaper artefact, slowly became indoctrinated reaper agent
Benezia - Came in contact with reaper, slowly became indoctrinated reaper agent
TIM - Came in contact with reaper artefact, slowly became indoctrinated reaper agent
Kenson
+ Scientists + Various characters from "Bring Down the Sky" - Came in
contact with reaper artefact, Less valuable, rapid-indoctrinated,
quickly became reaper agents but presumably mentally limited.
Shepard - Came in contact with reaper artefact, blacked out and spent two days unconscious in close proximity to it being worked on by medics who are indoctrinated, then starts showing almost all the quoted symptoms of indoctrination.

Then you've got the reaper voices in the final dream, the fact that all
of the music, the plants, the characters, the ambient sounds, the visual
effects, the audio effects and the altered motion in the final sequence
are the same as in the suspicious dreams.
I mean come on, if you didn't know anything about the series and were introduced to it for the first time you'd conclude that this was a bit suspect...

Oh, by the way, anyone here ever try turning around and walking away from the starchild in the dream sequences.
Go on, try it, I'll wait

[dreman9999]

SoloPala wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Prothean VI on Thessia doesn't detect indoctrination in Shepard, so no.

The prothean VI can be easilly fooled. Remeber this is the same VI that did not detect  the reaper agents that stoped the protheans crucible  project. This has been explain how many times?

Assumption.  The game literally tells you you are not indoctrinated at this point, but keep believing.

Not an assumption. Javik says it as well. In the flash back, the VI that was with javik could als detect indoctrination as well, but failed to. Javik late tells you indoctrinated agents in his ranks betrayed the progect. That's a clear indication that the VI's can be tricked.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, I have. It used the codex from ME1-2 and and even more.  I'm using infor from the codex in my topic and indoctrintion as explained in the codex is no different then what's in the game. So yes, new players can us the codex to understand what is going on. And nothingis stoping new player from playing ME1-2...Remeber, ME3 is a JUMPING POINT.
And yes they are. Everything that happens to Grayson and what happens in retribution is explained in the plot of ME3. Asension is explained in ME2. Revilation is expline in ME1..They are valid source because the game uses them in their plot.

The codex from ME3 mention 2 symptoms, neither of which involve oily shadows in dreams. So that pretty much excludes any new players right there. Bioware's logic is you could jump in AND COMPLETE the Mass Effect series from just three. There is no other way to interpret their statement.

And no, they are not. They specifically said that new players could jump into ME3 without needing outside information. Anything else is outside information.

And since I'm going to sleep, I have two points. On your first play through, did you honestly get IT in it's entirety from the game or did you convince yourself after someone else brought it up on the forums?

And again, since no one ever can, explain "Shepard defeated the Reapers and became a legend" this happens no matter what. Are you really trying to say that Shepard is seeing this message in his head? Because if he's not, then it happened.

My Shepard often has nightmares involving giant pop-ups telling him to buy DLC.

We arn't getting  dlc to adding on the ending?

[CombustiblePanda]

Another one of these threads:

"I've got evidence so it must be fact. :whistle:"

Edit: I'm willing to accept Indoc. as a theory, but the way you're responding to arguments is a bit troublesome.

Modifié par CombustiblePanda, 10 mai 2012 - 03:12 .

[Silhouett3]

Lol at people who approach a non-IT thread and still assume it must an IT thread which again makes a complex interpretation about the ending of the game.

So I'll just write this and check if it gets any objection whatsoever:

Commander Shepard is a human being who can be indoctrinated.
He can hear voices in his mind. Shoot people he doesn't really want to shoot. See a hologram take the form of someone haunted his dreams.

Modifié par Silhouett3, 10 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[dreman9999]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Another one of these threads:

"I've got evidence so it must be fact. :whistle:"

Expline how TIM is controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctrination then?

[dorktainian]

I think the ending itself can be explained away as just pure 'rubbish' but there has to be more to it than that. 

Shep is unconsious on the ground in london after being thrown through the air and almost killed by harbies beam.  He lays in rubble and harbinger finally tries to take his mind.

Throughout the final game, Hackett insists the reapers can not be beaten conventionally - as do many of your squadmates. Why is that? Is everything you even experience real?

The reapers must have a weakness. For me their weakness is for someone to actually pass through the Indoctrination process and reject the reapers 'truth' which pervades from every soul in existence at the current time - because they are all indoctrinated (even your squadmates). The 'real' truth would only become apparent after you escape the reapers control of your mind.  This means outwitting Harbinger.  This might mean Shep making the ultimate sacrifice in the REAL ending (to follow) to free everyone else of indoctrination so they can see the Reapers for what they really are.

To do this Sheperd has to pass through this battle of wits with Harbinger. No one has ever succeeded before. At each extinction point previously, the Catalyst (from whatever race it may be) has failed because it has fallen for Harbingers tricks and become indoctrinated - resulting in the collapse of their current civilisations.

The crucible destroys the Mass Relays - meaning that the civilisations are trapped in their own star systems and can be wiped out easily.  The relays are then reconstructed as is the Citadel before the Reapers head off to dark space and wait for the next cycle.

There are no new 'possibilities' as star brat says - it's all a trick of the mind.  A Lie.  A method of Control.

Each cycle has built the Crucible - and each one has failed because it is a trap. A reaper trap. It ensures their continuation. Harbinger never expected a creature with a strong enough mind to actually beat the crucible / test. 

Star brat is a fail safe to ensure the Destroy option is not chosen.  The final push of Indoctrination.

The breath at the end of the game is Shep escaping the trap of indoctrination after his battle with Harbingers mind..

The Crucible has yet to be used - and mustn't be used if we are to beat the reapers.  And YES we can beat them conventionally.

[SoloPala]

dreman9999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Prothean VI on Thessia doesn't detect indoctrination in Shepard, so no.

The prothean VI can be easilly fooled. Remeber this is the same VI that did not detect  the reaper agents that stoped the protheans crucible  project. This has been explain how many times?

Assumption.  The game literally tells you you are not indoctrinated at this point, but keep believing.

Not an assumption. Javik says it as well. In the flash back, the VI that was with javik could als detect indoctrination as well, but failed to. Javik late tells you indoctrinated agents in his ranks betrayed the progect. That's a clear indication that the VI's can be tricked.

And if you don't have javik this information isn't available to you so again, assumption, wrapped in poor writing.

Modifié par SoloPala, 10 mai 2012 - 03:13 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

CombustiblePanda wrote...

Another one of these threads:

"I've got evidence so it must be fact. :whistle:"

Expline how TIM is controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctrination then?

Because he implanted himself with some crazy-ass ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL thingies that Mirandas dad designed on sanctuary?

I don't recall being told that someone needs to be partially indoctrinated for it to work, but I haven't played it in a while so I may be wrong.