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[KingZayd]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

why do you think the sensors are perfect, when the prothean crucible project failed due to indoctrinated individuals?

so how come TIM is able to control shep if the crap TIM did to himself can only control rEAper tech

I never said that. He uses indoctrination tech.

[Slayer299]

OP, *if* Shep is under indoctrination (or in the process) by ME3 than that pretty much invalidates *all* of ME3 since that means everything we are doing is now for the Reapers benefit and Shep doesn't know it. If this is a plot twist by BW than it is one of the most idiotic ones.

Goodbye Saren...say Hello to Cmdr. Shepard.

[darthoptimus003]

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

Not Reaper implants.
 Like Saren, TIM and Kai Leng

thats my point sorry my iphone is not the best for this

Right, so that's why the VI didn't detect him.

are you saying that TIM souldnt been able to do anything to anderson and shep cause the way i see it he souldnt have been able to

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He has a degree in psychology, and has overseen bioware products for 15 years, he has brought us such amazing storiies with amazing twists, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Baldures gate, etc...

He has been proving that he can do this for years. It's not like he suddenly had a stroke.

Sure your not thinking about Drew Karpyshyn?

No Mac Walters.

Edit, maybe Drew as well, but Mac Walterss definitely

Drew was the orginal lead writer for ME but left the ME team before 2 was finished. That is when Mac was made the lead. Im not totaly sure about this but did Mac even work for BioWare before Jade Empire?

He wrote all the darkhorse comics too.

http://www.comicvine...lters/26-58598/ 

[KingZayd]

Slayer299 wrote...

OP, *if* Shep is under indoctrination (or in the process) by ME3 than that pretty much invalidates *all* of ME3 since that means everything we are doing is now for the Reapers benefit and Shep doesn't know it. If this is a plot twist by BW than it is one of the most idiotic ones.

Goodbye Saren...say Hello to Cmdr. Shepard.

False. TIM was indoctrinated back during the Contact War on Shanxi. He still had Shepard put back together again and had him destroy the Collectors.The point is, he hadn't lost control. And neither has Shepard.

[balance5050]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

are you saying that TIM souldnt been able to do anything to anderson and shep cause the way i see it he souldnt have been able to

*I think we're losing him Jim*

No, you aren't following....

He used indoctrination on Shep and Anderson.

[KingZayd]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

Not Reaper implants.
 Like Saren, TIM and Kai Leng

thats my point sorry my iphone is not the best for this

Right, so that's why the VI didn't detect him.

are you saying that TIM souldnt been able to do anything to anderson and shep cause the way i see it he souldnt have been able to

If Shepard and Anderson weren't already indoctrinated, then no he shouldn't have been able to do something like that so quickly, without serious brain damage. Also, their minds should have been affected too rather than just their bodies. The fact that the details are just a little  bit off added to the surreal nature of the scenes suggests it didn't really happen.

Modifié par KingZayd, 12 mai 2012 - 05:21 .

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

He wrote all the darkhorse comics too.

http://www.comicvine...lters/26-58598/ 

I am well aware but it does not answer my question. Did Mac work for BioWare or game writing in general before Jade Empire? 

[darthoptimus003]

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

why do you think the sensors are perfect, when the prothean crucible project failed due to indoctrinated individuals?

so how come TIM is able to control shep if the crap TIM did to himself can only control rEAper tech

I never said that. He uses indoctrination tech.

the only time shep is exposed to high amounts of reaper tech that can effect him is by TIM 
and it was said that the only reson TIM was controling shep was cause of the implants
anderson has none so again how does that work

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He wrote all the darkhorse comics too.

http://www.comicvine...lters/26-58598/ 

I am well aware but it does not answer my question. Did Mac work for BioWare or game writing in general before Jade Empire? 

All I know is he worked for them during jade empire cause hes in the credits, I don't know about before. But he's clearly a talented writer cause those comics are up to par.

So he's been with Bioware for 7 years minimum.

[Slayer299]

No. IT *is* idiotic and to have that for Shepard's ending isn't brilliant writing on BW's part, its cheap and lazy.

[KingZayd]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

why do you think the sensors are perfect, when the prothean crucible project failed due to indoctrinated individuals?

so how come TIM is able to control shep if the crap TIM did to himself can only control rEAper tech

I never said that. He uses indoctrination tech.

the only time shep is exposed to high amounts of reaper tech that can effect him is by TIM 
and it was said that the only reson TIM was controling shep was cause of the implants
anderson has none so again how does that work

No, Object Rho. Who said the only reason TIM was controlling shep was cause of implants? Shep doesn't have a control chip inside him.

[deathlord413]

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

If the ammount of indoctrination was low than Vendetta may not have noticed. Kai Leng and the Illusive man were completly Indoctrinated, but the reapers had no reason to take control of them. Thier job was to cause dissension in the galaxy. Making the races easy prey for the Reapers. 

It doesn't break the narrative because the story is not an entirely first person narrative. (See my other thread here ) There a things that are revealed to the player that others don't see or hear. The child on earth, the reaper sounds in the music, some of those may be subtle nods to the player trying to clue them into things that are going on around them that aren't directly stated. 

The one thing there is no clarification of is if the effects of Indoctrination are cumulative, though TIM has been living with his Reaper implants since the First Contact War and still has most of his sanity till the end of ME3. If the effects are cumulative than you're right and the only way Shep could be Indoctrinated is through rapid Indoctrination which would kill him. 

[KingZayd]

Slayer299 wrote...

No. IT *is* idiotic and to have that for Shepard's ending isn't brilliant writing on BW's part, its cheap and lazy.

On the contrary it's cheap and lazy not to tackle the issue of Shepard and indoctrination. There is no reason the reapers wouldn't try. And there is no reason to believe Shepard is somehow immune.

[darthoptimus003]

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

Not Reaper implants.
 Like Saren, TIM and Kai Leng

thats my point sorry my iphone is not the best for this

Right, so that's why the VI didn't detect him.

are you saying that TIM souldnt been able to do anything to anderson and shep cause the way i see it he souldnt have been able to

If Shepard and Anderson weren't already indoctrinated, then no he shouldn't have been able to do something like that so quickly, without serious brain damage. Also, their minds should have been affected too rather than just their bodies. The fact that the details are just a little  bit off added to the surreal nature of the scenes suggests it didn't really happen.

of course it didnt happen remember it was a drunken dream brought on by the concumption of larg quantites of alcahol and an asari who wants to sleep with shep but just dosent want to admit it

[balance5050]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

why do you think the sensors are perfect, when the prothean crucible project failed due to indoctrinated individuals?

so how come TIM is able to control shep if the crap TIM did to himself can only control rEAper tech

I never said that. He uses indoctrination tech.

the only time shep is exposed to high amounts of reaper tech that can effect him is by TIM 
and it was said that the only reson TIM was controling shep was cause of the implants
anderson has none so again how does that work

What about the derelict reaper where he picks up the reaper IFF, so he can go to the collector base where they are making a human reaper. Then after that you to the viper nebula where you run into Project Rho and it sends a reaper indoctrination beam at you, you are knocked out for two days while a team of indoctrinated Scientist do god knows what to you, and then you make the asteroid fly into the relay. You try to contact the batarians but all of a sudden a giant yellow vision of Harbinger comes and talkes to you ON THE SURFACE OF AN ASTEROID. 

That seems like more than enough reaper contact considering millions give into them everyday on Earth.

[deathlord413]

KingZayd wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You know my proof is the plot right and lore, right? Thing stated and shown that  support  findings, not base less assumtions with nothing to point to it. 
I woud just show vid from the game and notes from the lore like I was doing before....Athing you can't do about TIM's secret powers.

This whole "TIM has indoc pawa" is your invention, that's no lore, sorry.

Actually it is lore. Watch the Cerberus base videos provided below. About 15 mins in.

All I see is a video in which TIM says that he is able to control Reaper forces. Things that are *under Reaper influence. That supports the IT more than anything else. 

"Some are already hearing voices" "Once our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours"

A.)People under the influence of Cerberus modified Reaper tech.  B.)The objective of Sanctuary is to override the Reaper control signal in order to gain control of thier forces and ultimately the Reapers themselves.

[Tom Lehrer]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

He wrote all the darkhorse comics too.

http://www.comicvine...lters/26-58598/ 

I am well aware but it does not answer my question. Did Mac work for BioWare or game writing in general before Jade Empire? 

All I know is he worked for them during jade empire cause hes in the credits, I don't know about before. But he's clearly a talented writer cause those comics are up to par.

So he's been with Bioware for 7 years minimum.

7 falls very short of the 15 you claimed before.

He may also be a talented writer of comics he seems average with viedo games. This is why he could not have hoped to come up with IT and why ME has such a poor ending.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 12 mai 2012 - 05:31 .

[KingZayd]

deathlord413 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You know my proof is the plot right and lore, right? Thing stated and shown that  support  findings, not base less assumtions with nothing to point to it. 
I woud just show vid from the game and notes from the lore like I was doing before....Athing you can't do about TIM's secret powers.

This whole "TIM has indoc pawa" is your invention, that's no lore, sorry.

Actually it is lore. Watch the Cerberus base videos provided below. About 15 mins in.

All I see is a video in which TIM says that he is able to control Reaper forces. Things that are *under Reaper influence. That supports the IT more than anything else. 

"Some are already hearing voices" "Once our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours"

A.)People under the influence of Cerberus modified Reaper tech.  B.)The objective of Sanctuary is to override the Reaper control signal in order to gain control of thier forces and ultimately the Reapers themselves.

I'm using the quotes from the video. He used indoctrination and implantation on Cerberus troops.

[balance5050]

Slayer299 wrote...

No. IT *is* idiotic and to have that for Shepard's ending isn't brilliant writing on BW's part, its cheap and lazy.

Your comment seems cheap and lazy.

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

7 falls very short of the 15 you claimed before.

He may also be a talented writer of comics he seems average with viedo games. This is why he could not have hoped to come up with IT and why ME has such a poor ending.

Really? Read the comics and you'll see that he sets up the IT pretty concisely.

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 05:33 .

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

7 falls very short of the 15 you claimed before.

He may also be a talented writer of comics he seems average with viedo games. This is why he could not have hoped to come up with IT and why ME has such a poor ending.

My fault, it was Casey Hudson that has been there for 15 years 

[KingZayd]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If Shepard was in any way indoctrinated, people at any given point in time the VI on the Asari home world Vendetta would have noticed it.

It is beyond breaking of the plot and the etablished lore for Shepard to be considered indoctrinated, being indoctrinated or otherwise anything to do with indoctrination. It BREAKS the narrative of Shepard. It BREAKS the lore of indoctrination.

The only allowable means of indoctrination, which would kill Shepard since the codex states it's severity to the umptenth degree is rapid indoctrination.

And if that's the case Shepard is officially a Mary Sue.

And TIM uses a modified Reaper control signal for Husks with his implants. The only real time Shepard is exposed to high amounts of Reaper tech that can affect him is through TIM.

He wasn't indoctriated when he talked to the Thessia VI. It was in the early , psychological, undetectable stages.

plus it only detects reaper tech, and there were indoctrinated sleeper agents that slipped by it's detection before, accoding to itself AND Javik.

and sheps body is riddle with implants so if the vi didnt detect anything how is shep indoc

Not Reaper implants.
 Like Saren, TIM and Kai Leng

thats my point sorry my iphone is not the best for this

Right, so that's why the VI didn't detect him.

are you saying that TIM souldnt been able to do anything to anderson and shep cause the way i see it he souldnt have been able to

If Shepard and Anderson weren't already indoctrinated, then no he shouldn't have been able to do something like that so quickly, without serious brain damage. Also, their minds should have been affected too rather than just their bodies. The fact that the details are just a little  bit off added to the surreal nature of the scenes suggests it didn't really happen.

of course it didnt happen remember it was a drunken dream brought on by the concumption of larg quantites of alcahol and an asari who wants to sleep with shep but just dosent want to admit it

Or a dream that started shortly after he was blasted near to death by Harbinger.

[Slayer299]

KingZayd wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

No. IT *is* idiotic and to have that for Shepard's ending isn't brilliant writing on BW's part, its cheap and lazy.

On the contrary it's cheap and lazy not to tackle the issue of Shepard and indoctrination. There is no reason the reapers wouldn't try. And there is no reason to believe Shepard is somehow immune.

Immune? No. But to add this into a game that is "a great place for new players to enter the series" is stupid. So, how are new players going to come to this conclusion/understand anything about indoctrication? It comes out of left field as far as they are concerned and Sanctuary doesn't tell them much to understand it either.

Now, for the dreams to show how badly the last 3 years have taken a mental toll on Shepard makes more sense.

[deathlord413]

KingZayd wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You know my proof is the plot right and lore, right? Thing stated and shown that  support  findings, not base less assumtions with nothing to point to it. 
I woud just show vid from the game and notes from the lore like I was doing before....Athing you can't do about TIM's secret powers.

This whole "TIM has indoc pawa" is your invention, that's no lore, sorry.

Actually it is lore. Watch the Cerberus base videos provided below. About 15 mins in.

All I see is a video in which TIM says that he is able to control Reaper forces. Things that are *under Reaper influence. That supports the IT more than anything else. 

"Some are already hearing voices" "Once our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours"

A.)People under the influence of Cerberus modified Reaper tech.  B.)The objective of Sanctuary is to override the Reaper control signal in order to gain control of thier forces and ultimately the Reapers themselves.

I'm using the quotes from the video. He used indoctrination and implantation on Cerberus troops.

Which he got from studying the Reapers. He is using thier methods on his own troops. I don't see how you're missing the connection here. If you create a drug by using someone elses research as a basis, then your drug is going to be very similar. Indoctrination is far more complex than any pharmacutical endevor and would allow very little digression without cause major damage to the test subjects.