867 réponses à ce sujet

[ThinkIntegral]

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...
The codex says -through means of electromagnetic fields, infra-ultrasonic sounds and other subliminal messages- thats how a subject becomes indoctrinated. Shepard can get scanned by Dr. Chakwas or Michel in the Normandys med bay where they check to see how the implants are doing. If Shepard was indoctrinated it would show. There would be a physical side effect. Vendetta infers that there is a means to determine if an indoctrinated presence is nearby. There is only one way to do that.

Object Rho is not applicable. It is not referenced at all in ME3 if you did not play Arrival in ME2. IDT can not use that as fact since the story and lore itself doesnt support it.

Also you just proved occams razor correct. Thats three assumptions you have to make in able to get IDT to work. And one of them isnt even applicable to the theory.

The lore does support it. The Shanxi artifact indoctrinates everyone it activates on in that same way. The Normandy is still grounded even if you didn't do Arrival. The reason the Normandy is grounded is because of the events of Arrival. 

Vendetta not being able to detect miniscule levels of indoctrination is my only assumption. which equals 1 assumption.


And I was unaware Dr Chakwas had indoctrination detection, where did she obtain such technology?

A minor level of indoctrination is wholly breaking the suspension of disbelief of ME3 if within the 6 months period of the end of Arrival to the start of ME3 Shepard is to be considered indoctrinated. Months to years of slow indoctrination would mean that through the game of ME3 Shepard would exhibit some form of indoctrination. IDT breaks the entire plot of the game. TIM is indoctrinated and so is Kia Leng no one argues against that. If Vendetta is wrong or capable of being wrong then both TIM and Kia Leng cant wholly be considered indoctrinated and the entire plot arch of Thessia is broken. The entire reasoning for Thessia and everything after is broken. TIM and Kia Leng must be indoctrinated. TIM is capable of self determination to the point of not being able to kill the Reapers because they wont let him. If Shepard is indoctrinated then Shepard would not be able to kill the Reapers.

And it was three assumptions. First the Vendetta was wrong assumption, second that the Protheans failed because of indoctrinated forces and thirdly, Arrival. Which while we are on the subject Arrival has no applicability. The start of ME3 without Arrival has the Normandy grounded for the same reasons but if Shepard never went to the asteroid and interacted with Object Rho he can not be affected by it. Its other forces that Hackett sends to deal with Kenson and the Batarians.

I wasnt saying Chakwas had indoctrination technology. Only that the effects of indoctrination would be able to be measured and there would be a line about how something seems off.

No one fully knows how indoctrination works and it's different for every person depending on their personality, desires, and dreams. Javik couldn't even tell that his crewmates were indoc until it was to late, and he can sense who you've slept with for crying out loud.

The indoc on Shepard would have to be of the most subtle, psychological, inception type for no one (not even Shepard) to notice, the reapers are smart and they know this.

Well isn't that ever convenient.  Making excuses as always. 

Also if you're sticking around to troll people then that's really pathetic.  

[dreman9999]

Slayer299 wrote...

OP, *if* Shep is under indoctrination (or in the process) by ME3 than that pretty much invalidates *all* of ME3 since that means everything we are doing is now for the Reapers benefit and Shep doesn't know it. If this is a plot twist by BW than it is one of the most idiotic ones.

Goodbye Saren...say Hello to Cmdr. Shepard.

Process of indoctrination...They don't have any control of Shepard, just the ability to try to indoctrinate him.

[dreman9999]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...
The codex says -through means of electromagnetic fields, infra-ultrasonic sounds and other subliminal messages- thats how a subject becomes indoctrinated. Shepard can get scanned by Dr. Chakwas or Michel in the Normandys med bay where they check to see how the implants are doing. If Shepard was indoctrinated it would show. There would be a physical side effect. Vendetta infers that there is a means to determine if an indoctrinated presence is nearby. There is only one way to do that.

Object Rho is not applicable. It is not referenced at all in ME3 if you did not play Arrival in ME2. IDT can not use that as fact since the story and lore itself doesnt support it.

Also you just proved occams razor correct. Thats three assumptions you have to make in able to get IDT to work. And one of them isnt even applicable to the theory.

The lore does support it. The Shanxi artifact indoctrinates everyone it activates on in that same way. The Normandy is still grounded even if you didn't do Arrival. The reason the Normandy is grounded is because of the events of Arrival. 

Vendetta not being able to detect miniscule levels of indoctrination is my only assumption. which equals 1 assumption.


And I was unaware Dr Chakwas had indoctrination detection, where did she obtain such technology?

A minor level of indoctrination is wholly breaking the suspension of disbelief of ME3 if within the 6 months period of the end of Arrival to the start of ME3 Shepard is to be considered indoctrinated. Months to years of slow indoctrination would mean that through the game of ME3 Shepard would exhibit some form of indoctrination. IDT breaks the entire plot of the game. TIM is indoctrinated and so is Kia Leng no one argues against that. If Vendetta is wrong or capable of being wrong then both TIM and Kia Leng cant wholly be considered indoctrinated and the entire plot arch of Thessia is broken. The entire reasoning for Thessia and everything after is broken. TIM and Kia Leng must be indoctrinated. TIM is capable of self determination to the point of not being able to kill the Reapers because they wont let him. If Shepard is indoctrinated then Shepard would not be able to kill the Reapers.

And it was three assumptions. First the Vendetta was wrong assumption, second that the Protheans failed because of indoctrinated forces and thirdly, Arrival. Which while we are on the subject Arrival has no applicability. The start of ME3 without Arrival has the Normandy grounded for the same reasons but if Shepard never went to the asteroid and interacted with Object Rho he can not be affected by it. Its other forces that Hackett sends to deal with Kenson and the Batarians.

I wasnt saying Chakwas had indoctrination technology. Only that the effects of indoctrination would be able to be measured and there would be a line about how something seems off.

No one fully knows how indoctrination works and it's different for every person depending on their personality, desires, and dreams. Javik couldn't even tell that his crewmates were indoc until it was to late, and he can sense who you've slept with for crying out loud.

The indoc on Shepard would have to be of the most subtle, psychological, inception type for no one (not even Shepard) to notice, the reapers are smart and they know this.

Well isn't that ever convenient.  Making excuses as always. 

Also if you're sticking around to troll people then that's really pathetic.  

But that's how the lore sets it up from ME1. If the writers are going to use it, they have to use things that are prestablised about indoctrination. It's not convenient....It's how it works. It's a fact.

[dreman9999]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

[hoodaticus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

Since you can be imprisoned for the events of Arrival even if you never played Arrival, I think you can be indoctrinated by Arrival as well.

[dreman9999]

Opsrbest wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

If no one knows how indoctrination works then Vendetta can not possibly know that Kia Leng is indoctrinated. Which means the last quarter of the game is broken. The Prothean VI based on Protheans is wrong.

As for Shepard it can be as subtle as it wants. All it does in that case is violate the enitre premis of ME1 and Saren, Benezia and all of ME3 with TIM and Kia Leng. The whole point of indoctrination is that the subject doesnt know they are indoctrinated to begin with. You cant explain why Shepard would want to destory the Reapers or even have the thought of destrying the Reapers if he is even subtly indoctrinated. He would not be able to do it.

Even considering that Shepard is only a tiny bit indoctrinated, less then 1%, facing the Catalyst Shepard would not be able to chose the Destroy option. At all. He isnt going to have some miracle of miracles where he resists that 1% and destroys the Reapers.

Because if he is only a tiny bit indoctrinated there is no reason for IDT to exist since the effects of indoctrination are invalid.

See? You don't even know how indoctrination works......

Clearly neither do you then   Indoctrination is either a state of mind which makes it undetectable or its a physical state which means it can be detected.

It's both...It starts as a mental state and ends as a physical one.This has been shown many times.

[dreman9999]

hoodaticus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

Since you can be imprisoned for the events of Arrival even if you never played Arrival, I think you can be indoctrinated by Arrival as well.

It's part of the 3 year near reaper tech. But it'm just giving the"but what if you don't play it" people other points ofcontact as well.
I reameber many topic asking why Shepard was not indoctrinated after the dlc came out...Ironic how most try to dismiss the dlc now.

[SubAstris]

hoodaticus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

Since you can be imprisoned for the events of Arrival even if you never played Arrival, I think you can be indoctrinated by Arrival as well.

There is no evidence that you are detained on Earth because of Arrival if you have not done Arrival DLC

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

Since you can be imprisoned for the events of Arrival even if you never played Arrival, I think you can be indoctrinated by Arrival as well.

There is no evidence that you are detained on Earth because of Arrival if you have not done Arrival DLC

That not what he mean. He just mean the plot point did not change if you didn't do arrival but a different reason is put in it place. He saying the same thing can happen with IT if it's in the plot.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


The first one is Evolution, which is useful in conjunction with Arrival.

Like I said a dozen times already. What about Shepards that did not do Arrival? If we do not do that DLC a spec-ops teams gets sent in Shepards place. That means Shepard was never in the same system as Rho lot alone the same room.

Like I said a dozen times already, that doesn't affect the overall story. Liara is still the Shadow Broker even if you didn't help her. The Normandy is still confiscated from you, even if you didn't kill tons of batarians. They give you little excuses for in the case you haven't done these DLC, yet the DLC still determines the overall story.

All of those got replacments in the story. Tell me what takes the palce of Rho in ME3?

3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech, husks, reaper agents and  reapers who all can indoctrinate.

Since you can be imprisoned for the events of Arrival even if you never played Arrival, I think you can be indoctrinated by Arrival as well.

There is no evidence that you are detained on Earth because of Arrival if you have not done Arrival DLC

That not what he mean. He just mean the plot point did not change if you didn't do arrival but a different reason is put in it place. He saying the same thing can happen with IT if it's in the plot.

And why was explaining why he was wrong to assume that Arrival involving Shepard did happen even if the player didn't play Arrival DLC, thus showing his point to be null and void

[KingZayd]

Opsrbest wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...
The codex says -through means of electromagnetic fields, infra-ultrasonic sounds and other subliminal messages- thats how a subject becomes indoctrinated. Shepard can get scanned by Dr. Chakwas or Michel in the Normandys med bay where they check to see how the implants are doing. If Shepard was indoctrinated it would show. There would be a physical side effect. Vendetta infers that there is a means to determine if an indoctrinated presence is nearby. There is only one way to do that.

Object Rho is not applicable. It is not referenced at all in ME3 if you did not play Arrival in ME2. IDT can not use that as fact since the story and lore itself doesnt support it.

Also you just proved occams razor correct. Thats three assumptions you have to make in able to get IDT to work. And one of them isnt even applicable to the theory.

The lore does support it. The Shanxi artifact indoctrinates everyone it activates on in that same way. The Normandy is still grounded even if you didn't do Arrival. The reason the Normandy is grounded is because of the events of Arrival. 

Vendetta not being able to detect miniscule levels of indoctrination is my only assumption. which equals 1 assumption.


And I was unaware Dr Chakwas had indoctrination detection, where did she obtain such technology?

A minor level of indoctrination is wholly breaking the suspension of disbelief of ME3 if within the 6 months period of the end of Arrival to the start of ME3 Shepard is to be considered indoctrinated. Months to years of slow indoctrination would mean that through the game of ME3 Shepard would exhibit some form of indoctrination. IDT breaks the entire plot of the game. TIM is indoctrinated and so is Kia Leng no one argues against that. If Vendetta is wrong or capable of being wrong then both TIM and Kia Leng cant wholly be considered indoctrinated and the entire plot arch of Thessia is broken. The entire reasoning for Thessia and everything after is broken. TIM and Kia Leng must be indoctrinated. TIM is capable of self determination to the point of not being able to kill the Reapers because they wont let him. If Shepard is indoctrinated then Shepard would not be able to kill the Reapers.

And it was three assumptions. First the Vendetta was wrong assumption, second that the Protheans failed because of indoctrinated forces and thirdly, Arrival. Which while we are on the subject Arrival has no applicability. The start of ME3 without Arrival has the Normandy grounded for the same reasons but if Shepard never went to the asteroid and interacted with Object Rho he can not be affected by it. Its other forces that Hackett sends to deal with Kenson and the Batarians.

I wasnt saying Chakwas had indoctrination technology. Only that the effects of indoctrination would be able to be measured and there would be a line about how something seems off.

Why would it? TIM's had it for even longer. What signs did we see and when did we see them?

The idea isn't that Vendetta makes false positives or completely  wrong assessments. It was that there is a limit to its abilties to sense indoctrination. That there has to be indoctrination to a level beyond a certain non-zero point. TIM and Kai Leng are indoctrinated.

Vendetta is 1 assumption.

"The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. While the Protheans never had the chance to activate the Crucible, its schematics survived in a Prothean archive on Mars for the next 50,000 years. "

They built it, but were unable to use it because of the indoctrinated. Still 1 assumption.

Why wouldn't Arrival be relevant? Why make it if it's intended to be irrelevant? I don't see how that counts as an assumption when considering the plot? 

And why would the effects of indoctrination be measured by her scans? She's not scanning his brain is she?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

And why was explaining why he was wrong to assume that Arrival involving Shepard did happen even if the player didn't play Arrival DLC, thus showing his point to be null and void

If you didn't do arrival, an entire platoon goes and does the same thing for you and die in your stead. You get grounded on Earth either way remember?

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 05:04 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

And why was explaining why he was wrong to assume that Arrival involving Shepard did happen even if the player didn't play Arrival DLC, thus showing his point to be null and void

If you didn't do arrival, an entire platoon goes and does the same thing for you and die in your stead. You get grounded on Earth either way remember?

Yeah, still nothing to do with you being grounded because of Arrival, remember!

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

And why was explaining why he was wrong to assume that Arrival involving Shepard did happen even if the player didn't play Arrival DLC, thus showing his point to be null and void

If you didn't do arrival, an entire platoon goes and does the same thing for you and die in your stead. You get grounded on Earth either way remember?

Yeah, still nothing to do with you being grounded because of Arrival, remember!

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

And why was explaining why he was wrong to assume that Arrival involving Shepard did happen even if the player didn't play Arrival DLC, thus showing his point to be null and void

If you didn't do arrival, an entire platoon goes and does the same thing for you and die in your stead. You get grounded on Earth either way remember?

Yeah, still nothing to do with you being grounded because of Arrival, remember!

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

[Heg28]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

But it adds up, doesn´t it?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

People become indoctrinated with far less contact, the thread is about indoctrination not arrival.

I wasn't trying to diverge from what you were saying. I simply said you were right about not being grounded because of the events in Arrival IF you didn't do Arrival. My Shepard did it all.

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 05:26 .

[SubAstris]

Heg28 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

But it adds up, doesn´t it?

That depends

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

People become indoctrinated with far less contact, the thread is about indoctrination not arrival.

I wasn't trying to diverge from what you were saying. I simply said you were right about not being grounded because of the events in Arrival IF you didn't do Arrival. My Shepard did it all.

Such as? Not just started the process to be indoctrinated, but fully indoctrinated?

[Heg28]

SubAstris wrote...

Heg28 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

But it adds up, doesn´t it?

That depends

Maybe, but, to get back to the original topic, do you not believe that the scene with TIM is an indoctrination attempt? Since Shepard has nearly every symptom stated in the codex? If not, why not?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

People become indoctrinated with far less contact, the thread is about indoctrination not arrival.

I wasn't trying to diverge from what you were saying. I simply said you were right about not being grounded because of the events in Arrival IF you didn't do Arrival. My Shepard did it all.

Such as? Not just started the process to be indoctrinated, but fully indoctrinated?

You get Emails about how millions of people are just wondering into the reaper processing facilities on Earth.

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 05:33 .

[SubAstris]

Heg28 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Heg28 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Right, you were grounded because of your dealings with Cerberus, where you boarded the derelict reaper, attained the reaper IFF (which is still on the Normandy I believe) went to the Collector base where they make reapers, and fought a human reaper embryo.

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

But it adds up, doesn´t it?

That depends

Maybe, but, to get back to the original topic, do you not believe that the scene with TIM is an indoctrination attempt? Since Shepard has nearly every symptom stated in the codex? If not, why not?

I think TIM that has some manipulation of Shepard and Anderson in that scene, yes

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

People become indoctrinated with far less contact, the thread is about indoctrination not arrival.

I wasn't trying to diverge from what you were saying. I simply said you were right about not being grounded because of the events in Arrival IF you didn't do Arrival. My Shepard did it all.

Such as? Not just started the process to be indoctrinated, but fully indoctrinated?

You get Emails about how millions of people are just wondering into the reaper processing facilities on Earth.

And you know the precise amount of time that they have been in those facilities for to compare with Shepard?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

You get Emails about how millions of people are just wondering into the reaper processing facilities on Earth.

And you know the precise amount of time that they have been in those facilities for to compare with Shepard?

PFfft! They wondered in BECAUSE they were indoctrinated.

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 05:43 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All for short amounts of time. Nice diversion from talking about Arrival, nearly didn't notice

People become indoctrinated with far less contact, the thread is about indoctrination not arrival.

I wasn't trying to diverge from what you were saying. I simply said you were right about not being grounded because of the events in Arrival IF you didn't do Arrival. My Shepard did it all.

Such as? Not just started the process to be indoctrinated, but fully indoctrinated?

You get Emails about how millions of people are just wondering into the reaper processing facilities on Earth.

And you know the precise amount of time that they have been in those facilities for to compare with Shepard?

PFfft! They wondered in BECAUSE they were indoctrinated.

And you know what they have been in the presence of and for how long presumably?