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[Shepardtheshepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
Or more likely VIs don't have a galaxy wide indoctrination dectection range. To ruin either project, no one would of had to gone near the VIs.

You don't thing with wjat they know about indoctrination, they would not check everyperson first before letting them on the project?  Why would they not check each person?

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
Because the VI's dectection range is linked only to where the big computers they come from? Because bringing everyone (we're talking hundreds/thousands here) to the same place 3 times a week is a waste of time? Because bringing a bunch of potential reaper agents up close to the computer that holds all the information of your top secret beat the reapers plans isn't the safest thing to do?

If the VIs can be tricked (let's for this example now say they can), then how does Sheapard trick it but not Kai? You'd of thought that Shepard, who hasn't the slightest idea, wouldn't even be trying to trick the VI. Whereas Kai (who'd be in the "denial" stage at least by now) who's got implants, trying to sneak around and steal the VI would surely use this effortless VI trick?
So how does Shepard do it without the reason being a wizard did it?

dreman9999 wrote...
You not  understanding. The VI did not need time to check for indoctination. VI can do multple things at once. What say they can Check hordes of People at one. The VI knew Kai Lang was indoctriated the sec he came into the room. The VI can detect it at a glance. So YES, they can chech hordes of peopel at one if they have the time to pick who was going to be put in Cryo.

I never said the VI can't check quickly.

Modifié par Shepardtheshepard, 10 mai 2012 - 04:08 .

[dreman9999]

SoloPala wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Again , not having all the info does mean it doesn't happen. All that mean that it's harder for yo to see it. And I'm not stay the VI is lying. I'm say the VI is limited and is being tricked , which the reaper have been shown to beavle to do.

You're assuming the VI is limited and being tricked, and Shepard is indeed not indoctrinated.

VI by their nature of VI are limit because they are not self aware. VI only advace by the will of their owner. Compear Gliph to EDI and you can see how limited a VI is to an AI. An AI can run circles around a VI. What is stopping the AI's like the reaper from running circles around VI'S like the prothean VI's.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

[dreman9999]

[quote]Shepardtheshepard wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Shepardtheshepard wrote...
Or more likely VIs don't have a galaxy wide indoctrination dectection range. To ruin either project, no one would of had to gone near the VIs.
[/quote]You don't thing with wjat they know about indoctrination, they would not check everyperson first before letting them on the project?  Why would they not check each person?
[/quote]

Because the VI's dectection range is linked only to where the big computers they come from? Because bringing everyone (we're talking hundreds/thousands here) to the same place 3 times a week is a waste of time? Because bringing a bunch of potential reaper agents up close to the computer that holds all the information of your top secret beat the reapers plans isn't the safest thing to do?

If the VIs can be tricked (let's for this example now say they can), then how does Sheapard trick it but not Kai? You'd of thought that Shepard, who hasn't the slightest idea, wouldn't even be trying to trick the VI. Whereas Kai (who'd be in the "denial" stage at least by now) who's got implants, trying to sneak around and steal the VI would surely use this effortless VI trick?
So how does Shepard do it without the reason being a wizard did it?[/quote]You not  understanding. The VI did not need time to check for indoctination. VI can do multple things at once. What say they can Check hordes of People at one. The VI knew Kai Lang was indoctriated the sec he came into the room. The VI can detect it at a glance. So YES, they can chech hordes of peopel at one if they have the time to pick who was going to be put in Cryo.
[/quote]

I never said the VI can't check quickly. [/quote]You not getting it. All they have to do is have people pass throw the veiw of the VI's senses... The veiw of the VI sense i endless and can be put any were and every where on any place. They can easilly chech a horde of people.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

What TIM was doing is exaclty like indoctrination. Indoctrination at first does not take the will of the person. That is only at the last stages of indoctrination. How is it that Shepard getting every symtom of indoctrination be something else?
Also, you missing the fact that Shepard is get every symtom of indoctrination at once as soon as someone implanted with reaper tech comes in the room. How is this not obvious?

[Shepardtheshepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
Or more likely VIs don't have a galaxy wide indoctrination dectection range. To ruin either project, no one would of had to gone near the VIs.

You don't thing with wjat they know about indoctrination, they would not check everyperson first before letting them on the project?  Why would they not check each person?

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
Because the VI's dectection range is linked only to where the big computers they come from? Because bringing everyone (we're talking hundreds/thousands here) to the same place 3 times a week is a waste of time? Because bringing a bunch of potential reaper agents up close to the computer that holds all the information of your top secret beat the reapers plans isn't the safest thing to do?

If the VIs can be tricked (let's for this example now say they can), then how does Sheapard trick it but not Kai? You'd of thought that Shepard, who hasn't the slightest idea, wouldn't even be trying to trick the VI. Whereas Kai (who'd be in the "denial" stage at least by now) who's got implants, trying to sneak around and steal the VI would surely use this effortless VI trick?
So how does Shepard do it without the reason being a wizard did it?

dreman9999 wrote...You not  understanding. The VI did not need time to check for indoctination. VI can do multple things at once. What say they can Check hordes of People at one. The VI knew Kai Lang was indoctriated the sec he came into the room. The VI can detect it at a glance. So YES, they can chech hordes of peopel at one if they have the time to pick who was going to be put in Cryo.

I never said the VI can't check quickly.

You not getting it. All they have to do is have people pass throw the veiw of the VI's senses... The veiw of the VI sense i endless and can be put any were and every where on any place. They can easilly chech a horde of people.

Where does it say the VIs have this unlimited range? There's more evidence for against, such as the VI only dectecting Kai when he's what, 200 yards away? And the VI dectection range is more certainly from those GIANT computers they come out from rather than where the hologram is. not excactly portable or quick it reproduce.
And it's not the scanning speed that's the problem. Especially with the cruicible, no one's going to be remotely near the VI. None of them have the power to teleport. We're talking hundred/thousands of people here.  The logistics of bringing those people into range 3 times a week is absurd. And more importantly as I mentioned, there are huge security risks with bringing all those people to top secret bases with all your plans to beat the reapers inside.  

[sorentoft]

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

What TIM was doing is exaclty like indoctrination. Indoctrination at first does not take the will of the person. That is only at the last stages of indoctrination. How is it that Shepard getting every symtom of indoctrination be something else?
Also, you missing the fact that Shepard is get every symtom of indoctrination at once as soon as someone implanted with reaper tech comes in the room. How is this not obvious?

Indoctrination never makes a person do things they don't want to, though, it convinces them that they DO want to do it... Shepard definately wasn't convinced that shooting Anderson was the right thing to do.


Reapers take control of the mind and skewer thought processes, TIM was directly controlling movement. Although they may be considered two sides of the same coin, they ARE different.

[dreman9999]

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

Ok, but that doesn't mean TIM is not indoctrinating Shepard. Shepard still has every symtom of indoctrination one TIM walks into the room and TIM only uses his biotic powers once.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[deathlord413]

Xellith wrote...

Its possible that they were going to use indoctrination. However they decided not to, but elements are still left within the game.

The one thing thats bad about the whole indoctrination thing is that if you say your shepard is not being indoctrinated - thats exactly what Bioware might want you to think

Oh the mind games they could be playing..

They took out the Gameplay Mechanic where the player would lose control of Shepard. They never said that they would remove the plot device. They couldn't get it to mesh well with the coversation system. I think they were trying to make it where even if you slected certain options in the dialogue it would select different ones. Though working that in subtly due to Indoctrination, without spelling it out for them, and not thinking it's some kind of glitch sounds tricky.

EDIT: Fixed some spelling and grammer errors. 

Modifié par deathlord413, 10 mai 2012 - 04:32 .

[HellbirdIV]

The Illusive Man uses his augmentations and what he learned at Sanctuary to control Shepard... Because Shepard is indoctrinated, since that's what the Illusive Man learned to control - Reaper minions.

Does this instantly make the "Indoctrination Theory" true? Assuming that by "Indoctrination theory" you mean "The one video that everyone thinks everyone who supports the idea that Shepard is indoctrinated blindly believes" then no. It does not "prove" nor disprove the IT.

Indoctrination is not an all or nothing affair. Shepard is indoctrinated, but it is up to each individual to judge to what extent - is it the beginnings of Reaper influence, or is she about to succumb completley by the end? We don't know, thus, speculation.

jijeebo wrote...

Indoctrination
never makes a person do things they don't want to, though, it convinces
them that they DO want to do it... Shepard definately wasn't convinced
that shooting Anderson was the right thing to do.

Reapers
take control of the mind and skewer thought processes, TIM was directly
controlling movement. Although they may be considered two sides of the
same coin, they ARE different.

No. The novel "Retribution" details how Paul Grayson, now controlled by the Reapers, is at points physically controlled, unable to act at all of his own free will, simply stuck watching as the Reapers use his body.

At other times, they are influencing him (such as making him want to find Kahlee Sanders because they convince him it makes sense), but when sh*t gets real, the Reapers have no problems seizing complete control and straight up murdering everything in sight.

Benezia in ME1 describes it as well, "Trapped inside your mind, banging at the glass as your hands torture and murder."

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 10 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[TSA_383]

fr33stylez wrote...

When did Shepard become indoctrinated?

Why did Shepard's thought process throughout any of the games indicate any hints on indoctrination?

Why aren't any of the squadmates showing signs either?

Why don't Shepard's closest allies notice signs of indoctrination

Really?
REALLY?

dorktainian wrote...

I think the ending itself can be explained away as just pure 'rubbish' but there has to be more to it than that. 

Shep
is unconsious on the ground in london after being thrown through the
air and almost killed by harbies beam.  He lays in rubble and harbinger
finally tries to take his mind.

Throughout the final game,
Hackett insists the reapers can not be beaten conventionally - as do
many of your squadmates. Why is that? Is everything you even
experience real?

The reapers must have a weakness. For me their
weakness is for someone to actually pass through the Indoctrination
process and reject the reapers 'truth' which pervades from every soul in
existence at the current time - because they are all indoctrinated
(even your squadmates). The 'real' truth would only become apparent
after you escape the reapers control of your mind.  This means
outwitting Harbinger.  This might mean Shep making the ultimate
sacrifice in the REAL ending (to follow) to free everyone else of
indoctrination so they can see the Reapers for what they really are.

To
do this Sheperd has to pass through this battle of wits with Harbinger.
No one has ever succeeded before. At each extinction point
previously, the Catalyst (from whatever race it may be) has failed
because it has fallen for Harbingers tricks and become indoctrinated -
resulting in the collapse of their current civilisations.

The
crucible destroys the Mass Relays - meaning that the civilisations are
trapped in their own star systems and can be wiped out easily.  The
relays are then reconstructed as is the Citadel before the Reapers head
off to dark space and wait for the next cycle.

There are no new 'possibilities' as star brat says - it's all a trick of the mind.  A Lie.  A method of Control.

Each
cycle has built the Crucible - and each one has failed because it is a
trap. A reaper trap. It ensures their continuation. Harbinger never
expected a creature with a strong enough mind to actually beat the
crucible / test. 

Star brat is a fail safe to ensure the Destroy option is not chosen.  The final push of Indoctrination.

The breath at the end of the game is Shep escaping the trap of indoctrination after his battle with Harbingers mind..

The
Crucible has yet to be used - and mustn't be used if we are to beat the
reapers.  And YES we can beat them conventionally.

I like it... I still think the crucible is a little convenient, but I like it...

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

What TIM was doing is exaclty like indoctrination. Indoctrination at first does not take the will of the person. That is only at the last stages of indoctrination. How is it that Shepard getting every symtom of indoctrination be something else?
Also, you missing the fact that Shepard is get every symtom of indoctrination at once as soon as someone implanted with reaper tech comes in the room. How is this not obvious?

Indoctrination never makes a person do things they don't want to, though, it convinces them that they DO want to do it... Shepard definately wasn't convinced that shooting Anderson was the right thing to do.


Reapers take control of the mind and skewer thought processes, TIM was directly controlling movement. Although they may be considered two sides of the same coin, they ARE different.

Again, process of Indoctrination and even at that...It does make people do what they want to do...Look at Paul grayson and Benzia. Even Saren , if you conince him that he is indoctrinated can stop him self from doing what the reapers want unless he kill him self.
Also, you not getting that the fact that TIM can get in Sheps Head, the reapers can also getin his head to. By point is that for TIM to control Shepard with indoctriantion, they has to be a foundation of indoctrination first. And TIM can make it that quickly by just being in the room. All that shows that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination, that mean the reaper and TIM don't have full conttol yet and Shepard is not indoctrinated yet. By based on yoour last choice Shepard can be.

[jijeebo]

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

So TIMs controlling could just be an advanced version of Morinths Dominate power?

... What a useless villain.

[dreman9999]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The Illusive Man uses his augmentations and what he learned at Sanctuary to control Shepard... Because Shepard is indoctrinated, since that's what the Illusive Man learned to control - Reaper minions.

Does this instantly make the "Indoctrination Theory" true? Assuming that by "Indoctrination theory" you mean "The one video that everyone thinks everyone who supports the idea that Shepard is indoctrinated blindly believes" then no. It does not "prove" nor disprove the IT.

Indoctrination is not an all or nothing affair. Shepard is indoctrinated, but it is up to each individual to judge to what extent - is it the beginnings of Reaper influence, or is she about to succumb completley by the end? We don't know, thus, speculation.

I not agrueing if IT is true. I'm just argeeing that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and even if we take the ending as it is, TIM indicated Shep is in the process of indoctrination any way by the fact he can control him. In sacturay and the cerberus base, it's stated that for them to control anyone they need to have a form of indoctrination first, that why they implant people with reaper tech and can control Husk.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

So TIMs controlling could just be an advanced version of Morinths Dominate power?

... What a useless villain.

Morinth power works completly diffently being that control what people says and all. Also, you don't hear whisper, see oliy shadows , have headaches and hear buzzing sounds when Mornith controls Shepard. You see all those symtoms whrn TIM controls you.=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vpbcETphT0Y#t=198s

http://www.youtube.c...XN3xtUu44#t=30s

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[HellbirdIV]

My post wasn't actually directed at you, OP, so I'm agreeing with you

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

What TIM was doing is exaclty like indoctrination. Indoctrination at first does not take the will of the person. That is only at the last stages of indoctrination. How is it that Shepard getting every symtom of indoctrination be something else?
Also, you missing the fact that Shepard is get every symtom of indoctrination at once as soon as someone implanted with reaper tech comes in the room. How is this not obvious?

Indoctrination never makes a person do things they don't want to, though, it convinces them that they DO want to do it... Shepard definately wasn't convinced that shooting Anderson was the right thing to do.


Reapers take control of the mind and skewer thought processes, TIM was directly controlling movement. Although they may be considered two sides of the same coin, they ARE different.

Again, process of Indoctrination and even at that...It does make people do what they want to do...Look at Paul grayson and Benzia. Even Saren , if you conince him that he is indoctrinated can stop him self from doing what the reapers want unless he kill him self.
Also, you not getting that the fact that TIM can get in Sheps Head, the reapers can also getin his head to. By point is that for TIM to control Shepard with indoctriantion, they has to be a foundation of indoctrination first. And TIM can make it that quickly by just being in the room. All that shows that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination, that mean the reaper and TIM don't have full conttol yet and Shepard is not indoctrinated yet. By based on yoour last choice Shepard can be.

Again, it shows that TIM is able to control Shepard and Anderson, not that Shepard is becoming indoctrinated.

And Benezia and Saren prove my point. they both admit that they were made to think differently, that Sovereign changed thier point of view rather than controlling their movements. TIM does not do this, he just flat out takes control of your body away from you in an instant.

[BigGuy28]

I didn't see a single thing in the game indicating Shepard was being indoctrinated. The herp derp theory is just people being unable to accept that the endings really are just that terrible. So as a defensive mechanism they came up with a theory that makes the endings more palatable to them. Funny thing is, the herp derp theory is worse than the actual endings.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

TIM isn't indoctrinating you, he is simply controlling your motor functions.

And it is shown, right there in front of my face in the game. Shep and Anderson suddenly lose control of themselves, and TIM is shown to be responsible due to the research he's been doing.

Just because it's poorly presented, doesn't mean I didn't just watch it happen.

The whispers and the oily shadows, that are symtoms of indoctrination, and well as buzzing noises and head ache SHepard has says otherwise.
Why did Shep have every symtom of indcotriation at once once TIM walk into the room?

Because it's entirely likely that TIM was controlling Shepard by attacking his mind = Head pains and odd noises.


The funny on screen effect is probably just a heads up for the player that something isn't right and that TIM is being evil again...


EDIT: Quote pyramid.

No, it to show that TIM was trying to indoctriate Shepard. That's why we see Shepard get all the symtoms at once....Why add whispers if it was just to show that TIM wasup to know good?

It isn't. What TIM is doing is different from indoctrination, thats why it's sudden, Shep and Anderson are still themselves whilst it's happening, and they both recover once they deal with TIM.

The whispers could be any number of things, ranging from simple ambience to symbolizing the pressure and stress Shepard is feeling which manisfestates itself in the presence of the whispers of the fallen haunting him... Nobody really knows.

What TIM was doing is exaclty like indoctrination. Indoctrination at first does not take the will of the person. That is only at the last stages of indoctrination. How is it that Shepard getting every symtom of indoctrination be something else?
Also, you missing the fact that Shepard is get every symtom of indoctrination at once as soon as someone implanted with reaper tech comes in the room. How is this not obvious?

Indoctrination never makes a person do things they don't want to, though, it convinces them that they DO want to do it... Shepard definately wasn't convinced that shooting Anderson was the right thing to do.


Reapers take control of the mind and skewer thought processes, TIM was directly controlling movement. Although they may be considered two sides of the same coin, they ARE different.

Again, process of Indoctrination and even at that...It does make people do what they want to do...Look at Paul grayson and Benzia. Even Saren , if you conince him that he is indoctrinated can stop him self from doing what the reapers want unless he kill him self.
Also, you not getting that the fact that TIM can get in Sheps Head, the reapers can also getin his head to. By point is that for TIM to control Shepard with indoctriantion, they has to be a foundation of indoctrination first. And TIM can make it that quickly by just being in the room. All that shows that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination, that mean the reaper and TIM don't have full conttol yet and Shepard is not indoctrinated yet. By based on yoour last choice Shepard can be.

Again, it shows that TIM is able to control Shepard and Anderson, not that Shepard is becoming indoctrinated.

And Benezia and Saren prove my point. they both admit that they were made to think differently, that Sovereign changed thier point of view rather than controlling their movements. TIM does not do this, he just flat out takes control of your body away from you in an instant.

1.As I said over and over agein. It shown that cerberus has to implant a perosn of the person has to have a form of indoctriantion in order for them to control people with indoctrination. That is exactly how reaper indoctrination works. If TIM can control Shepard, that means the foundation of indoctrinatin is in Shepard as well as Anderson. That  would mean  both Shepard and Anderson is in the prosecc of indoctrination.
2. At the end with Benzia did not want to fight Shepard, She was forced to. At the end Saren want to stop the reaper if you convinve him, he could not. If you didn't have the point to convince him to kill himself, he is force to Fight you.
The reaper can make you do what you don't want to do.

[dreman9999]

BigGuy28 wrote...

I didn't see a single thing in the game indicating Shepard was being indoctrinated. The herp derp theory is just people being unable to accept that the endings really are just that terrible. So as a defensive mechanism they came up with a theory that makes the endings more palatable to them. Funny thing is, the herp derp theory is worse than the actual endings.

Explain the last scene with TIM then...How is he controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctriantion?

[SoloPala]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

I didn't see a single thing in the game indicating Shepard was being indoctrinated. The herp derp theory is just people being unable to accept that the endings really are just that terrible. So as a defensive mechanism they came up with a theory that makes the endings more palatable to them. Funny thing is, the herp derp theory is worse than the actual endings.

Explain the last scene with TIM then...How is he controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctriantion?

TIM was succesful in controlling reaper tech, and has essentially become a human reaper, and when i close proximity hes able to use his reaper control to reach out and force his will on others.

[Gorkan86]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

rocketsauce v2 wrote...


The moment he shows up at the citadel at the end is when all the weird red stuff shows up on the screen. It is TIM controling you with his shiny new implants

His shiny new implants that were supposed to let him control Reapers?

Yet he controls Anderson in this scene too...

Is Anderson indoctrinated?

[dreman9999]

SoloPala wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

I didn't see a single thing in the game indicating Shepard was being indoctrinated. The herp derp theory is just people being unable to accept that the endings really are just that terrible. So as a defensive mechanism they came up with a theory that makes the endings more palatable to them. Funny thing is, the herp derp theory is worse than the actual endings.

Explain the last scene with TIM then...How is he controling Shepard if Shepard is not in the process of indoctriantion?

TIM was succesful in controlling reaper tech, and has essentially become a human reaper, and when i close proximity hes able to use his reaper control to reach out and force his will on others.

But not even Sovergin could control people instatly. If he could why did he do so on virmire,or the batle of the citadel. Also, why didn't harbinger do this to Shepard after he shot him down? Their is no instant indoctrination like this.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

rocketsauce v2 wrote...


The moment he shows up at the citadel at the end is when all the weird red stuff shows up on the screen. It is TIM controling you with his shiny new implants

His shiny new implants that were supposed to let him control Reapers?

Yet he controls Anderson in this scene too...

Is Anderson indoctrinated?

Anderson has been in constant contact with reapers, reaper tech ,and husk(all of which can cause indoctriantion) while on earth.... That how TIM is controling Anderson.