867 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadeedak]

When have we seen someone in 'subtle' stages of early indoctrination in the games?

We have voices AT THE FIRST STAGE, we have really weird dreams (No, the kid's pretty prosaic as far a dreams go), and we have memories from someone else. It's the sort of thing that becomes immediately obvious to anyone watching from the outside.

"What'd you say, Garrus?" "...I didn't say anything, Shepard." That should have happened a LOT if it was 'slow' flavor indoctrination. If it was fast... Well, there's no fighting it and it would have been a critical mission failure. Certainly no breaking free or waking up.

Not to mention the Prothean VI. If it says Shepard's not indoctrinated -- twice, I don't think he's indoctrinated. When Javik touches Shepard -- and he makes DAMN sure to grab Shepard -- he also doesn't react to any 'indoctrination'. This guy's been burned before. If anyone would recognize 'slow' indoctrination, it's him.

While TIM still registers as an indoctrinated presence, he's got the reapers chasing him in a mild panic on Sanctuary.

Assuming Control of Shepard's body is either fast-stage indoctrination -- CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE -- or else it's a side effect of TIM's upgrades. And yes, I know some people say Anderson isn't really there. But if the whole thing's a hallucination/metaphor, we can't say much. I will say post-TIM Shepard and Anderson aren't talking like someone who's undergone fast stage indoctrination (protip: They're husks or crazy).

IT makes more problems than it solves, and grasps too many straws for me to find it compelling. And it handwaves too much or makes it fit. Also, because it's all happening in Shepard's head, sort of, it's not like anything I say could 'disprove' it.

Certainly not the word of god Stargazer/"Shepard ended the Reaper threat!" that comes after all 3 choices.

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Again, how many time does have to say indoctrination is subtle. Not how most of the sign come up after the arrival dlc.

You can keep saying it, but I'm afraid it's not strengthening my perception of your argument.

But it is nagating your aurgument. The point is it been state in the lore how indoctreination works. If the writers wrote indocrintion into the plot exacly like it's stated in the plot and lore....They will be no sign of it till it's too late. They have to go by what is stated about it to use it.

[dsl08002]

After seeing the documentery then i agree that shepard is getting indoctrinated

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

When have we seen someone in 'subtle' stages of early indoctrination in the games?

We have voices AT THE FIRST STAGE, we have really weird dreams (No, the kid's pretty prosaic as far a dreams go), and we have memories from someone else. It's the sort of thing that becomes immediately obvious to anyone watching from the outside.

"What'd you say, Garrus?" "...I didn't say anything, Shepard." That should have happened a LOT if it was 'slow' flavor indoctrination. If it was fast... Well, there's no fighting it and it would have been a critical mission failure. Certainly no breaking free or waking up.

Not to mention the Prothean VI. If it says Shepard's not indoctrinated -- twice, I don't think he's indoctrinated. When Javik touches Shepard -- and he makes DAMN sure to grab Shepard -- he also doesn't react to any 'indoctrination'. This guy's been burned before. If anyone would recognize 'slow' indoctrination, it's him.

While TIM still registers as an indoctrinated presence, he's got the reapers chasing him in a mild panic on Sanctuary.

Assuming Control of Shepard's body is either fast-stage indoctrination -- CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE -- or else it's a side effect of TIM's upgrades. And yes, I know some people say Anderson isn't really there. But if the whole thing's a hallucination/metaphor, we can't say much. I will say post-TIM Shepard and Anderson aren't talking like someone who's undergone fast stage indoctrination (protip: They're husks or crazy).

IT makes more problems than it solves, and grasps too many straws for me to find it compelling. And it handwaves too much or makes it fit. Also, because it's all happening in Shepard's head, sort of, it's not like anything I say could 'disprove' it.

Certainly not the word of god Stargazer/"Shepard ended the Reaper threat!" that comes after all 3 choices.

Do you know that being subtle mean being subtle. If they are subtle sign, you would not know. It would make sense that more signs of it pop up the close to are to the higher level of indoctriantion and that doesn;t happen till ME3.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

jasonxxsatanna wrote...

I don't know if many ppl read the app "The final hours of Mass Effect 3" but in the interview with Casey Hudson its said that towards the end of ME3 the player was to play as an indoctrinated Shep but the controls were to hard to work out so the dev's scrapped it. . . but that was about the controls it never said that they took out the story plot of IT . . . .
So it only makes since to me that IT explains alot of what was going on in the end, and for those who don't think its IT , what do you make of the whole nightmare parts of the game?
Why would it be such a heavy part of the story if it wasn't trying to place IT as part of the plot

This app mentions a Shepard that is under reaper control, not a Shepard that is indoctrinated. The distinction was obviously made for a reason.

The dreams are Bioware showing us Shepards survivors guilt... Because they were determined to make everyone care immensely about this stupid dead kid.

Oh, my god..Do you even know what you are saying? The reapers control people only with indoctrination. How can Shepard be under reaper control with out being indoctrinated?

I don't know, and we never will because Bioware didn't implement it into the game.

No, we know because they took the time to explain it in the entire plot of ME. The reaper can't control people with out indoctriantion. They made that very clear.

They also told us that the reapers were "beyond our comprehension" and built them up as super-intelligent beings... All to turn round in the last 5 minutes and tell us that they are actually the opposite, being tools for the catalyst. Plot's develop, and enemy capabilities change.

No, people still don't get why they are doin what they are doing. People still don't get the star childs goal. So yes they are beyond our alot of people comprihension.

I get exactly why they're doing it, unfortunately there isn't much room for speculation when it comes to their cack-handed logic.

And that why you don't understand. You think it's crack handed logic. You really can't understand because the reaper really arn't tellin anyone. The reaper are not here to debate their beleifs just to impose them. They never debate and the never will debate it till they are in a corner. They don't think the other races are worth of a clear explination. That is made clear by the fact that have the cycles. They don't give all the info they know about there soltion, so really no one can understand then truly, so we are left to assume.

You don't have to find logic good to understand it.

We don't have to assume because the catalyst stands there and explains, presumably to give Shepard more context before me makes his decision... Or just to give fans an answer to that story arc.

Remember, villains have an extraordinary habit of revealing their master plan to the hero at the end, rather than just planting a bullet in their chest.

[111987]

I think the game suggests that Shepard is at least in beginning stages of Indoctrination. Assuming we aren't going off of the IT (which i disagree with), we know it isn't a significant level of indoctrination or otherwise Control wouldn't have worked, which it did.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

So Garrus is indoctrinated? Because i take it with me on a missions as often as possible.

Was he on Eden prime...Did he go with you on Arrival? Was he an every mision? Shepard still has way more expose to reaper wave then Garrus. Also, the reapers are focus on Shepard.

But he was in the range of the reaper tech, a lot of husks, a lot of dragon spikes, near Sovereign, he was inside a reaper with me, near indoctrination buster on some planet, reaper artifacts from cerberus base, and even proto-reaper. This is what I could remember.

How did he manage to avoid indoctrination in such frequent contact with reaper tech?

Who said he avoided it. Garrus maybe in the process of indoctrination as well. Remeber, Garrus said many time he has been having problems sleeping....I wonder why?

[Hadeedak]

dreman9999 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

When have we seen someone in 'subtle' stages of early indoctrination in the games?

We have voices AT THE FIRST STAGE, we have really weird dreams (No, the kid's pretty prosaic as far a dreams go), and we have memories from someone else. It's the sort of thing that becomes immediately obvious to anyone watching from the outside.

"What'd you say, Garrus?" "...I didn't say anything, Shepard." That should have happened a LOT if it was 'slow' flavor indoctrination. If it was fast... Well, there's no fighting it and it would have been a critical mission failure. Certainly no breaking free or waking up.

Not to mention the Prothean VI. If it says Shepard's not indoctrinated -- twice, I don't think he's indoctrinated. When Javik touches Shepard -- and he makes DAMN sure to grab Shepard -- he also doesn't react to any 'indoctrination'. This guy's been burned before. If anyone would recognize 'slow' indoctrination, it's him.

While TIM still registers as an indoctrinated presence, he's got the reapers chasing him in a mild panic on Sanctuary.

Assuming Control of Shepard's body is either fast-stage indoctrination -- CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE -- or else it's a side effect of TIM's upgrades. And yes, I know some people say Anderson isn't really there. But if the whole thing's a hallucination/metaphor, we can't say much. I will say post-TIM Shepard and Anderson aren't talking like someone who's undergone fast stage indoctrination (protip: They're husks or crazy).

IT makes more problems than it solves, and grasps too many straws for me to find it compelling. And it handwaves too much or makes it fit. Also, because it's all happening in Shepard's head, sort of, it's not like anything I say could 'disprove' it.

Certainly not the word of god Stargazer/"Shepard ended the Reaper threat!" that comes after all 3 choices.

Do you know that being subtle mean being subtle. If they are subtle sign, you would not know. It would make sense that more signs of it pop up the close to are to the higher level of indoctriantion and that doesn;t happen till ME3.

Oh, so your evidence is that nothing's there. It sure doesn't happen in ME3, either. Not until the very end. There's no sign Shepard's any different. And if it was fast indoctrination, Shepard wouldn't be ending the threat of the reapers.

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

I think the game suggests that Shepard is at least in beginning stages of Indoctrination. Assuming we aren't going off of the IT (which i disagree with), we know it isn't a significant level of indoctrination or otherwise Control wouldn't have worked, which it did.

Thank you ..That is my point...Some one gets it.

[Hadeedak]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

So Garrus is indoctrinated? Because i take it with me on a missions as often as possible.

Was he on Eden prime...Did he go with you on Arrival? Was he an every mision? Shepard still has way more expose to reaper wave then Garrus. Also, the reapers are focus on Shepard.

But he was in the range of the reaper tech, a lot of husks, a lot of dragon spikes, near Sovereign, he was inside a reaper with me, near indoctrination buster on some planet, reaper artifacts from cerberus base, and even proto-reaper. This is what I could remember.

How did he manage to avoid indoctrination in such frequent contact with reaper tech?

Who said he avoided it. Garrus maybe in the process of indoctrination as well. Remeber, Garrus said many time he has been having problems sleeping....I wonder why?

Because Palaven's on fire?

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

When have we seen someone in 'subtle' stages of early indoctrination in the games?

We have voices AT THE FIRST STAGE, we have really weird dreams (No, the kid's pretty prosaic as far a dreams go), and we have memories from someone else. It's the sort of thing that becomes immediately obvious to anyone watching from the outside.

"What'd you say, Garrus?" "...I didn't say anything, Shepard." That should have happened a LOT if it was 'slow' flavor indoctrination. If it was fast... Well, there's no fighting it and it would have been a critical mission failure. Certainly no breaking free or waking up.

Not to mention the Prothean VI. If it says Shepard's not indoctrinated -- twice, I don't think he's indoctrinated. When Javik touches Shepard -- and he makes DAMN sure to grab Shepard -- he also doesn't react to any 'indoctrination'. This guy's been burned before. If anyone would recognize 'slow' indoctrination, it's him.

While TIM still registers as an indoctrinated presence, he's got the reapers chasing him in a mild panic on Sanctuary.

Assuming Control of Shepard's body is either fast-stage indoctrination -- CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE -- or else it's a side effect of TIM's upgrades. And yes, I know some people say Anderson isn't really there. But if the whole thing's a hallucination/metaphor, we can't say much. I will say post-TIM Shepard and Anderson aren't talking like someone who's undergone fast stage indoctrination (protip: They're husks or crazy).

IT makes more problems than it solves, and grasps too many straws for me to find it compelling. And it handwaves too much or makes it fit. Also, because it's all happening in Shepard's head, sort of, it's not like anything I say could 'disprove' it.

Certainly not the word of god Stargazer/"Shepard ended the Reaper threat!" that comes after all 3 choices.

Do you know that being subtle mean being subtle. If they are subtle sign, you would not know. It would make sense that more signs of it pop up the close to are to the higher level of indoctriantion and that doesn;t happen till ME3.

Oh, so your evidence is that nothing's there. It sure doesn't happen in ME3, either. Not until the very end. There's no sign Shepard's any different. And if it was fast indoctrination, Shepard wouldn't be ending the threat of the reapers.

Oh I have evidence. The dreams and the last scene with TIM. All of it has signs of indoctrination.  The fact that TIM is controling Shepard at the end of the game shows that Shepard is in the process of indoctriation. It only really stated to become more advance in ME3.

[SoloPala]

Hadeedak wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

So Garrus is indoctrinated? Because i take it with me on a missions as often as possible.

Was he on Eden prime...Did he go with you on Arrival? Was he an every mision? Shepard still has way more expose to reaper wave then Garrus. Also, the reapers are focus on Shepard.

But he was in the range of the reaper tech, a lot of husks, a lot of dragon spikes, near Sovereign, he was inside a reaper with me, near indoctrination buster on some planet, reaper artifacts from cerberus base, and even proto-reaper. This is what I could remember.

How did he manage to avoid indoctrination in such frequent contact with reaper tech?

Who said he avoided it. Garrus maybe in the process of indoctrination as well. Remeber, Garrus said many time he has been having problems sleeping....I wonder why?

Because Palaven's on fire?

No dude, people are cool with billions dying, only answer is they're under the control of the reapers.

[fr33stylez]

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

When did Shepard become indoctrinated?

Why did Shepard's thought process throughout any of the games indicate any hints on indoctrination?

Why aren't any of the squadmates showing signs either?

Why don't Shepard's closest allies notice signs of indoctrination

Really?
REALLY?

That quote didn't answer any of my questions.

I'm going to re-post something I posted in the IT thread, which I received no response.

My understanding of Indoctrinaion throughout the trilogy is that there is evidence of a progression in the individual being indoctrinated. This is true in the logs we hear from Dr. Kenson, from the Cerberus employees on the derelict Reaper, and so on.

It is true we must reject Object Rho from Arrival as a reason for indoctrination (BW's fault), beause this 'indoctrination' occurs in ME3 even if Shepard never came into contact with Object Rho (i.e. did not play Arrival DLC). I also haven't seen any characters in ME that were indoctrinated due to 'acute' exposure to Reaper/Reaper artifacts. Shepard has never been in constant exposure with a Reaper/Reaper artifact as I don't even see this would lead to indoctrination. 

1) If Shepard is the only member of his crew that was indoctrinated, one would expect there would be clues in the things Shepard says in the course of ME2/ME3 which would suggest Shepard being influenced. There is no questioning the Reaper's role or motives like every person we've seen indoctrinated in the ME series does. Even up until the conversation with TIM, Shepard have NEVER wavered in his resolve to destroy the Reapers, not even one doubt. 

1a) If the argument is we couldn't see these subtle changes in Shepard's beliefs because we are playing in his perspective (technically that's not true, it's third-person) one could still wonder why none of the dozen people on your ship that are familiar with indoctrination since didn't notice anything strange about what Shepard says or does. telling Shepard "you're stressed and tired" isn't proof of indoctrination.

2) If fighting Collectors, being in a Collector base, talking to Soverign on Vimire, going on the Derelict Reaper is enough to cause Indoctrination as many hae claimed, there is no reason why others on your team who have been by your side since ME1 (Tali, Garrus, etc.) wouldn't have suffered the same indoctrination.

The problem with IT lies that there is no evidence of the progression to indoctrination in Shepard's thoughts and beliefs anywhere  in the trilogy leading to the ending. If anything, they get stronger during the course of the series.

You missing two things.
1.Shepardis in the process of indoctriation.
2. There are no signs of indoctriation till it;s too late.
 

What do you mean "there are no signs of indoctrination till it's too late"? Too late for what? There are ALWAYS signs of indoctrination, like I said this is evidence in the entire series through inidivuals who are indoctrinated, and in the audio logs of people undergoing indoctrination.

Also, WHY is Shepard fighting indoctrination ? Since when? What caused it? Indoctrination is not something that happens by a switch, so when did indoctrination begin?

Too late to try to fight ageinst it. And know the eairly parts of indoctriation are hard to peg as indoctrination. It's  sublte as Rana says. Even people who know about it get caught by it...Look at Dr. Kennson and her team in Arriaval. Indcotriation is subtle. You won't know you are indoctrianted till it's too late to fight it.

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

Dr. Kenson DOES question herself, so do other that are indoctrinated - Shepard doesn't. Shepard's actions are also not reflective of indoctrination.

And again, you're only describing the end result of indoctrination. When did indoctrination begin and what caused it?

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

So Garrus is indoctrinated? Because i take it with me on a missions as often as possible.

Was he on Eden prime...Did he go with you on Arrival? Was he an every mision? Shepard still has way more expose to reaper wave then Garrus. Also, the reapers are focus on Shepard.

But he was in the range of the reaper tech, a lot of husks, a lot of dragon spikes, near Sovereign, he was inside a reaper with me, near indoctrination buster on some planet, reaper artifacts from cerberus base, and even proto-reaper. This is what I could remember.

How did he manage to avoid indoctrination in such frequent contact with reaper tech?

Who said he avoided it. Garrus maybe in the process of indoctrination as well. Remeber, Garrus said many time he has been having problems sleeping....I wonder why?

Because Palaven's on fire?

Which give the reaper the chance for subtle indoctriaton...It would be understand buut to use something a person can brush off as a harmlesss dream to subtly indoctrinated someone.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[balance5050]

Joccaren wrote...

I don't get how people can be so stupid that they can't think of any alternatives but indoctrination to explain things.

No offence, but this is seriously getting tired.
It is POSSIBLE HEAD CANON at the moment that Shepard is indoctrinated.
It is NOT a 100% DEFINITE OMGWTFBBQ!?!#$! SHEPARD IS BEING INDOCTRINATED style thing. Indoctrination is one of many interpretations of the ending. Stop pretending its the only one. If you seriously can't think of any alternatives to any of the things presented by IT as 'Evidence', then you are sorely lacking an imagination.

The only part of your OP I will grant you is the TIM sequence, where TIM attempts to use the Reaper process of indoctrination he thinks he has reverse engineered to control Shepard and Anderson. Other than that, there are other explanations for everything in that OP.

Play ME 1 and 2 and you'll see why you sound like a noob

[sorentoft]

dreman9999 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

Ok, but that doesn't mean TIM is not indoctrinating Shepard. Shepard still has every symtom of indoctrination one TIM walks into the room and TIM only uses his biotic powers once.

You need to take a course of logic before I want to discuss with you. No offense.

[dreman9999]

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

When did Shepard become indoctrinated?

Why did Shepard's thought process throughout any of the games indicate any hints on indoctrination?

Why aren't any of the squadmates showing signs either?

Why don't Shepard's closest allies notice signs of indoctrination

Really?
REALLY?

That quote didn't answer any of my questions.

I'm going to re-post something I posted in the IT thread, which I received no response.

My understanding of Indoctrinaion throughout the trilogy is that there is evidence of a progression in the individual being indoctrinated. This is true in the logs we hear from Dr. Kenson, from the Cerberus employees on the derelict Reaper, and so on.

It is true we must reject Object Rho from Arrival as a reason for indoctrination (BW's fault), beause this 'indoctrination' occurs in ME3 even if Shepard never came into contact with Object Rho (i.e. did not play Arrival DLC). I also haven't seen any characters in ME that were indoctrinated due to 'acute' exposure to Reaper/Reaper artifacts. Shepard has never been in constant exposure with a Reaper/Reaper artifact as I don't even see this would lead to indoctrination. 

1) If Shepard is the only member of his crew that was indoctrinated, one would expect there would be clues in the things Shepard says in the course of ME2/ME3 which would suggest Shepard being influenced. There is no questioning the Reaper's role or motives like every person we've seen indoctrinated in the ME series does. Even up until the conversation with TIM, Shepard have NEVER wavered in his resolve to destroy the Reapers, not even one doubt. 

1a) If the argument is we couldn't see these subtle changes in Shepard's beliefs because we are playing in his perspective (technically that's not true, it's third-person) one could still wonder why none of the dozen people on your ship that are familiar with indoctrination since didn't notice anything strange about what Shepard says or does. telling Shepard "you're stressed and tired" isn't proof of indoctrination.

2) If fighting Collectors, being in a Collector base, talking to Soverign on Vimire, going on the Derelict Reaper is enough to cause Indoctrination as many hae claimed, there is no reason why others on your team who have been by your side since ME1 (Tali, Garrus, etc.) wouldn't have suffered the same indoctrination.

The problem with IT lies that there is no evidence of the progression to indoctrination in Shepard's thoughts and beliefs anywhere  in the trilogy leading to the ending. If anything, they get stronger during the course of the series.

You missing two things.
1.Shepardis in the process of indoctriation.
2. There are no signs of indoctriation till it;s too late.
 

What do you mean "there are no signs of indoctrination till it's too late"? Too late for what? There are ALWAYS signs of indoctrination, like I said this is evidence in the entire series through inidivuals who are indoctrinated, and in the audio logs of people undergoing indoctrination.

Also, WHY is Shepard fighting indoctrination ? Since when? What caused it? Indoctrination is not something that happens by a switch, so when did indoctrination begin?

Too late to try to fight ageinst it. And know the eairly parts of indoctriation are hard to peg as indoctrination. It's  sublte as Rana says. Even people who know about it get caught by it...Look at Dr. Kennson and her team in Arriaval. Indcotriation is subtle. You won't know you are indoctrianted till it's too late to fight it.

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

Dr. Kenson DOES question herself, so do other that are indoctrinated - Shepard doesn't. Shepard's actions are also not reflective of indoctrination.

And again, you're only describing the end result of indoctrination. When did indoctrination begin and what caused it?

It's an rpg. A roleplaying game where we dictact the presona of our character. We are Shepard. If bw need to indoctrinate Shepard, being a roleplaying game where the player dictates the main character presonality, the player would have to be indoctriated as well.
Also, you have to note 2 things to understand....
1. Reaper tech, husk ,reaper agents and Reapers  can indoctriate people.
2. Shepard has 3 years of on and off contact with 
Reaper tech, husk ,reaper agents and Reapers 

Use some deduction.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 06:12 .

[balance5050]

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

When did Shepard become indoctrinated?

Why did Shepard's thought process throughout any of the games indicate any hints on indoctrination?

Why aren't any of the squadmates showing signs either?

Why don't Shepard's closest allies notice signs of indoctrination

Really?
REALLY?

That quote didn't answer any of my questions.

I'm going to re-post something I posted in the IT thread, which I received no response.

My understanding of Indoctrinaion throughout the trilogy is that there is evidence of a progression in the individual being indoctrinated. This is true in the logs we hear from Dr. Kenson, from the Cerberus employees on the derelict Reaper, and so on.

It is true we must reject Object Rho from Arrival as a reason for indoctrination (BW's fault), beause this 'indoctrination' occurs in ME3 even if Shepard never came into contact with Object Rho (i.e. did not play Arrival DLC). I also haven't seen any characters in ME that were indoctrinated due to 'acute' exposure to Reaper/Reaper artifacts. Shepard has never been in constant exposure with a Reaper/Reaper artifact as I don't even see this would lead to indoctrination. 

1) If Shepard is the only member of his crew that was indoctrinated, one would expect there would be clues in the things Shepard says in the course of ME2/ME3 which would suggest Shepard being influenced. There is no questioning the Reaper's role or motives like every person we've seen indoctrinated in the ME series does. Even up until the conversation with TIM, Shepard have NEVER wavered in his resolve to destroy the Reapers, not even one doubt. 

1a) If the argument is we couldn't see these subtle changes in Shepard's beliefs because we are playing in his perspective (technically that's not true, it's third-person) one could still wonder why none of the dozen people on your ship that are familiar with indoctrination since didn't notice anything strange about what Shepard says or does. telling Shepard "you're stressed and tired" isn't proof of indoctrination.

2) If fighting Collectors, being in a Collector base, talking to Soverign on Vimire, going on the Derelict Reaper is enough to cause Indoctrination as many hae claimed, there is no reason why others on your team who have been by your side since ME1 (Tali, Garrus, etc.) wouldn't have suffered the same indoctrination.

The problem with IT lies that there is no evidence of the progression to indoctrination in Shepard's thoughts and beliefs anywhere  in the trilogy leading to the ending. If anything, they get stronger during the course of the series.

You missing two things.
1.Shepardis in the process of indoctriation.
2. There are no signs of indoctriation till it;s too late.
 

What do you mean "there are no signs of indoctrination till it's too late"? Too late for what? There are ALWAYS signs of indoctrination, like I said this is evidence in the entire series through inidivuals who are indoctrinated, and in the audio logs of people undergoing indoctrination.

Also, WHY is Shepard fighting indoctrination ? Since when? What caused it? Indoctrination is not something that happens by a switch, so when did indoctrination begin?

Too late to try to fight ageinst it. And know the eairly parts of indoctriation are hard to peg as indoctrination. It's  sublte as Rana says. Even people who know about it get caught by it...Look at Dr. Kennson and her team in Arriaval. Indcotriation is subtle. You won't know you are indoctrianted till it's too late to fight it.

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

Dr. Kenson DOES question herself, so do other that are indoctrinated - Shepard doesn't. Shepard's actions are also not reflective of indoctrination.

And again, you're only describing the end result of indoctrination. When did indoctrination begin and what caused it?

Casey Hudons himself said in an interview thatthey wanted us to FEEL what Shepard feels and not just react to it. It's called "breaking the 4th wall" and it's awesome.

[jijeebo]

simfamSP wrote...

I think people who are opposed to the IT just don't understand it. A lot of the excuses are just terrible. "No, because my Shepard wouldn't become indoctrinated." That's one of the worst ones.

I think people who support the IT are indoctrinated by Bioware and can't accept that they sold them a dud of an ending.


See, making sweeping generalisations is incredibly productive. <_<

[dreman9999]

sorentoft wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

Ok, but that doesn't mean TIM is not indoctrinating Shepard. Shepard still has every symtom of indoctrination one TIM walks into the room and TIM only uses his biotic powers once.

You need to take a course of logic before I want to discuss with you. No offense.

Dude, you need to look at the evidence in hand before you can go on with the discussion..
http://www.youtube.c...cETphT0Y#t=199s
http://www.youtube.c...XN3xtUu44#t=16s.

What mornith uses is completly differnt from what TIM uses.

[balance5050]

sorentoft wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Just so you know cybernetic upgrades granted by the reapers can give biotic powers, like TIM is shown to have. It is established in the books.

Ok, but that doesn't mean TIM is not indoctrinating Shepard. Shepard still has every symtom of indoctrination one TIM walks into the room and TIM only uses his biotic powers once.

You need to take a course of logic before I want to discuss with you. No offense.

TIM is not a biotic, and he was studying how to control husk and reaper forces in an attempt to control the reapers themselves, seems stupid to control organics when he wants to control the reapers.

Also, when the indoctrination wavy lines come, Shepard HOLD HIS head as if he has a headache, so it must be  mental thing no?

[TODD9999]

dreman9999 wrote...

But it is nagating your aurgument. The point is it been state in the lore how indoctreination works. If the writers wrote indocrintion into the plot exacly like it's stated in the plot and lore....They will be no sign of it till it's too late. They have to go by what is stated about it to use it.

Indoctrination is in the game - absolutely.  They needed to explain indoctrination so people would understand how people are being controlled by the Reapers without using Space Magic - also necessary.  But I wasn't arguing that indoctrination doesn't happen ever, I'm saying I'm unconvinced it's happening to Shepard.  Leaving aside that we agree that indoctrination exists in the Mass Effect universe, you present no new evidence in your post that Indoctrination Theory is correct, and you don't counter my quick points that I typed above.

Note - I'm not asking you to prove me wrong and carry the banner for the entire IT fanbase here.  Like I said, I've seen many of the arguments and many of the pieces of "evidence", and find them to be unconvincing.  I was just answering the OP, how someone can play through the games and not see that Shepard was being indoctrinated.  

[CmnDwnWrkn]

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

[Gorkan86]

You know, if it turns out that Garrus, Liara, and other Shepard friends become indoctrinated, and Shepard will never see his little blue children, because they too will be indoctrinated, I'm going into my old military base, it'll take a flamethrower and burn my copy of ME3.
And will never buy any more games from the BioWare.