867 réponses à ce sujet

[BigGuy28]

Once again, Shepard is not indoctrinated, there are no signs of Shepard being indoctrinated. The endings really were just that terrible. Stop making posts about the herp derp theory and just talk about it in your own little thread, those of us that think it's a stupid theory are tired of seeing multiple posts popping up about it when they could be kept in the one thread.

[jijeebo]

Gorkan86 wrote...

You know, if it turns out that Garrus, Liara, and other Shepard friends become indoctrinated, and Shepard will never see his little blue children, because they too will be indoctrinated, I'm going into my old military base, it'll take a flamethrower and burn my copy of ME3.
And will never buy any more games from the BioWare.

Can you take mine as well?

My flamethrower ran out after FFXIII-2 ended. <_<

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But it is nagating your aurgument. The point is it been state in the lore how indoctreination works. If the writers wrote indocrintion into the plot exacly like it's stated in the plot and lore....They will be no sign of it till it's too late. They have to go by what is stated about it to use it.

Indoctrination is in the game - absolutely.  They needed to explain indoctrination so people would understand how people are being controlled by the Reapers without using Space Magic - also necessary.  But I wasn't arguing that indoctrination doesn't happen ever, I'm saying I'm unconvinced it's happening to Shepard.  Leaving aside that we agree that indoctrination exists in the Mass Effect universe, you present no new evidence in your post that Indoctrination Theory is correct, and you don't counter my quick points that I typed above.

Note - I'm not asking you to prove me wrong and carry the banner for the entire IT fanbase here.  Like I said, I've seen many of the arguments and many of the pieces of "evidence", and find them to be unconvincing.  I was just answering the OP, how someone can play through the games and not see that Shepard was being indoctrinated.  

They have...They have been doing it since ME1. The have the codex. To say that they need to explain so people who were not paying atteinsion can understand is like someone saying that they need to explain everything at the end of inception for it to be good when they fell asleep the first part of the moive that explained everything.

[Leafs43]

Indoctrination is supposed to be subtle.

Indoctrination isn't a reaper yelling, "herf derf I'm indoctrinating you."



It's actually a bigger plot hole if Sheperd is immune to indoctrination.  If anyone in the ME universe should be feeling the effects of indoctrination, it would be Sheperd.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 mai 2012 - 06:16 .

[dreman9999]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Once again, Shepard is not indoctrinated, there are no signs of Shepard being indoctrinated. The endings really were just that terrible. Stop making posts about the herp derp theory and just talk about it in your own little thread, those of us that think it's a stupid theory are tired of seeing multiple posts popping up about it when they could be kept in the one thread.

Yes, there is ..The fact the TIM is control Shepard at the end of the game is a clear sign.

[dreman9999]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

...That did happen....http://www.youtube.c...XN3xtUu44#t=16s

[Bill Casey]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

[Gorkan86]

jijeebo wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

You know, if it turns out that Garrus, Liara, and other Shepard friends become indoctrinated, and Shepard will never see his little blue children, because they too will be indoctrinated, I'm going into my old military base, it'll take a flamethrower and burn my copy of ME3.
And will never buy any more games from the BioWare.

Can you take mine as well?

My flamethrower ran out after FFXIII-2 ended. <_<

Yes bro, I'm always willing to help friends in trouble.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

jasonxxsatanna wrote...

I don't know if many ppl read the app "The final hours of Mass Effect 3" but in the interview with Casey Hudson its said that towards the end of ME3 the player was to play as an indoctrinated Shep but the controls were to hard to work out so the dev's scrapped it. . . but that was about the controls it never said that they took out the story plot of IT . . . .
So it only makes since to me that IT explains alot of what was going on in the end, and for those who don't think its IT , what do you make of the whole nightmare parts of the game?
Why would it be such a heavy part of the story if it wasn't trying to place IT as part of the plot

This app mentions a Shepard that is under reaper control, not a Shepard that is indoctrinated. The distinction was obviously made for a reason.

The dreams are Bioware showing us Shepards survivors guilt... Because they were determined to make everyone care immensely about this stupid dead kid.

Oh, my god..Do you even know what you are saying? The reapers control people only with indoctrination. How can Shepard be under reaper control with out being indoctrinated?

I don't know, and we never will because Bioware didn't implement it into the game.

No, we know because they took the time to explain it in the entire plot of ME. The reaper can't control people with out indoctriantion. They made that very clear.

They also told us that the reapers were "beyond our comprehension" and built them up as super-intelligent beings... All to turn round in the last 5 minutes and tell us that they are actually the opposite, being tools for the catalyst. Plot's develop, and enemy capabilities change.

No, people still don't get why they are doin what they are doing. People still don't get the star childs goal. So yes they are beyond our alot of people comprihension.

I get exactly why they're doing it, unfortunately there isn't much room for speculation when it comes to their cack-handed logic.

And that why you don't understand. You think it's crack handed logic. You really can't understand because the reaper really arn't tellin anyone. The reaper are not here to debate their beleifs just to impose them. They never debate and the never will debate it till they are in a corner. They don't think the other races are worth of a clear explination. That is made clear by the fact that have the cycles. They don't give all the info they know about there soltion, so really no one can understand then truly, so we are left to assume.

You don't have to find logic good to understand it.

We don't have to assume because the catalyst stands there and explains, presumably to give Shepard more context before me makes his decision... Or just to give fans an answer to that story arc.

Remember, villains have an extraordinary habit of revealing their master plan to the hero at the end, rather than just planting a bullet in their chest.

Please, point to anything in the plot that proves everything out side of what the reaopers say in ME1 , 2, and 3 is true. Once you realize their is nothing...Then you'll understand that the star child has not explained anything to you at all.

[jijeebo]

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

[UrgentArchengel]

If you ask me. Both parties are in denial. Those who completely believe in the IT like a devote (sp.) religious person are possibably in denial, as are those who completely dismiss Shepard not being able to become indoctrinated period. It's better to just learn to be a little open minded folks.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

[BigGuy28]

dreman9999 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Once again, Shepard is not indoctrinated, there are no signs of Shepard being indoctrinated. The endings really were just that terrible. Stop making posts about the herp derp theory and just talk about it in your own little thread, those of us that think it's a stupid theory are tired of seeing multiple posts popping up about it when they could be kept in the one thread.

Yes, there is ..The fact the TIM is control Shepard at the end of the game is a clear sign.

No that isn't, it's just a clear sign that TIM is really messed up and got some new powers from messing around with reaper tech, nothing more.

[Bill Casey]

simfamSP wrote...

The only thing the IT doesn't answer is why there is a destroy option. But that's a 50/50. The only explanation is that it's a symbol of Shepard's purpose. The final 'boss fight' is the indoctrination process.

Saren: I've studied the effects of Indoctrination. The more control Sovereign exerts, the less capable the subject becomes. That is my saving grace.

[BigGuy28]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

If you ask me. Both parties are in denial. Those who completely believe in the IT like a devote (sp.) religious person are possibably in denial, as are those who completely dismiss Shepard not being able to become indoctrinated period. It's better to just learn to be a little open minded folks.

Personally I don't think Shepard can't be indoctrinated, that's just silly, I just don't think he is because I haven't seen any signs of it.

[dreman9999]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

If you ask me. Both parties are in denial. Those who completely believe in the IT like a devote (sp.) religious person are possibably in denial, as are those who completely dismiss Shepard not being able to become indoctrinated period. It's better to just learn to be a little open minded folks.

It hard to be open mind to the passiblity of Shepardi not indoctrianted we TIM flat out contols Shepard atthe end of the game with every symtom of indoctrination happening at once.

[Bill Casey]

You would think the piles of Kaidans and Ashleys that suddenly appear would be a dead giveaway...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 mai 2012 - 06:25 .

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999, explain which of the theories you support.
The Hallucination IT, or Dream IT?
Between them is a huge difference, which must be taken into account.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

Sorry, what I meant was, indoctrination has never been shown as being exclusively connected to sleep.  Meaning that, we've never seen people having nightmares from indoctrination without there also being effects while awake.

The only time in the game where I could see a possible indoctrination/control attempt was the minute or two with TIM where that black stuff is flying around Shepard.  But then Shepard regains control, suggesting that the control was attempted and overcome within a couple of minutes.

dreman9999 wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

If
you ask me. Both parties are in denial. Those who completely believe
in the IT like a devote (sp.) religious person are possibably in denial,
as are those who completely dismiss Shepard not being able to become
indoctrinated period. It's better to just learn to be a little open
minded folks.

It hard to be open mind to the passiblity of
Shepardi not indoctrianted we TIM flat out contols Shepard atthe end of
the game with every symtom of indoctrination happening at once.

But then he overcomes it, and all the symptoms are gone.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 10 mai 2012 - 06:27 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


You don't have to find logic good to understand it.

We don't have to assume because the catalyst stands there and explains, presumably to give Shepard more context before me makes his decision... Or just to give fans an answer to that story arc.

Remember, villains have an extraordinary habit of revealing their master plan to the hero at the end, rather than just planting a bullet in their chest.

Please, point to anything in the plot that proves everything out side of what the reaopers say in ME1 , 2, and 3 is true. Once you realize their is nothing...Then you'll understand that the star child has not explained anything to you at all.

What the Catalyst tells me backs up what the reapers have implied, but forces them down a rank in the galactic pecking order. Therefore I have no reason so assume that he is holding out on me deliberately.

Any information that is overlooked (i.e. how the first reapers were made), was either deemed subject to speculation, or was plain forgotten.

[fr33stylez]

simfamSP wrote...

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

The whole point of a plot twist is for us not to know. How many good plot twists (and I mean GOOD) have you seen coming? And then you realised "oooooooh" and tell your self how stupid you were because you didn't see it.

There are TONNES of things that point towards the IT. There are plausible, valid, and invalid suggestions through-out, but there are more things that hint towards it than things that don't.

The Prothean VI? In Thessia there were thousands of Reapers, and Kai-Leng, two Reaper signals far stronger than Shepard's (if he had one.) Shepard wasn't indoctrinated then, he was under the process but it had not completed. At the Cerberus base the VI SAYS that TIM tweaked it so that it couldn't detect indoctrination. Javik? Javik just woke from 50,000 years of being in stasis. His mind is not at its best you know.

IT makes ALOT more sense than the ending does. In fact, it fills so many plot holes that narrative coherence begins to show it's self once more.

Therein lies the problem with IT - it tried to fill plot holes. Because the endings were so terrible, people are now plugging in whatever they want to support IT. The talk about IT came AFTER the terrible endings, and there wasn't anything to support it.

There is nothing in the games to support Shepard was ungoing indoctrination. And the only rebuttal you hear from people in this thread is there's no evidence because it's happening to you!" Which disregards the fact that others around would recognize you indoctrination, and more importantly, is using the absence of evidence to support their theory.

No point in going on, people are free to believe what they will.

[dreman9999]

BigGuy28 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Once again, Shepard is not indoctrinated, there are no signs of Shepard being indoctrinated. The endings really were just that terrible. Stop making posts about the herp derp theory and just talk about it in your own little thread, those of us that think it's a stupid theory are tired of seeing multiple posts popping up about it when they could be kept in the one thread.

Yes, there is ..The fact the TIM is control Shepard at the end of the game is a clear sign.

No that isn't, it's just a clear sign that TIM is really messed up and got some new powers from messing around with reaper tech, nothing more.

You missed this...
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination
 Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.
......
Now, in the last moment, TIM sudenly randomly controls Shepards body and Shepard has every symtom of indoctriantion at once...Just because?
http://www.youtube.c...XN3xtUu44#t=16s

Added, TIM  has reper implants, has indoctriated solders  by implanting them and found a way to control different forms of indoctrination?  I'm sorry but no matter how you cut it. Based on the lore Shepard is in the process of indoctriantion.

[Tom Lehrer]

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give us the real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 10 mai 2012 - 06:57 .