867 réponses à ce sujet

[BigGuy28]

simfamSP wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Once again, Shepard is not indoctrinated, there are no signs of Shepard being indoctrinated. The endings really were just that terrible. Stop making posts about the herp derp theory and just talk about it in your own little thread, those of us that think it's a stupid theory are tired of seeing multiple posts popping up about it when they could be kept in the one thread.

Herp Derp? What a ****ing joke <_< these people have come up with a plausible solution to nearly ever plothole in the ending and you call it 'herp derp?' Is this facebook?!

I'm betting that 90 out of every hundred anti-IT people, haven't even read or researched into it. Probably skimmed, and that's why the same things are repeated again and again. Which most of them have been answered.

The only thing the IT doesn't answer is why there is a destroy option. But that's a 50/50. The only explanation is that it's a symbol of Shepard's purpose. The final 'boss fight' is the indoctrination process.

Yep herp derp, that's how little I think of the IT. It's stupid and I can't believe so many people buy in to it.

"Shepards clearly indoctrinated! If you squint really hard and turn your tv/monitor upside down while looking at this scene it's really obvious!"

No Shepard is not indoctrinated, the endings are horrible, so horrible people came up with an even more horrible theory to explain it to protect them from having to believe they are the real endings.

[TODD9999]

dreman9999 wrote...

They have...They have been doing it since ME1. The have the codex. To say that they need to explain so people who were not paying atteinsion can understand is like someone saying that they need to explain everything at the end of inception for it to be good when they fell asleep the first part of the moive that explained everything.

I disagree.  To reiterate with a slightly different emphasis - the fact that indoctrination exists in the setting does not mean Shepard is being indoctrinated.  Similarly, the fact that biotics exist in the setting does not mean Shepard is a biotic.  He *can* be, based upon player choice, but he isn't necessarily.

I didn't say that they need to explain so people who weren't paying attention can understand.  I listed several brief points previously and that was not one of them.

[dreman9999]

fr33stylez wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

The whole point of a plot twist is for us not to know. How many good plot twists (and I mean GOOD) have you seen coming? And then you realised "oooooooh" and tell your self how stupid you were because you didn't see it.

There are TONNES of things that point towards the IT. There are plausible, valid, and invalid suggestions through-out, but there are more things that hint towards it than things that don't.

The Prothean VI? In Thessia there were thousands of Reapers, and Kai-Leng, two Reaper signals far stronger than Shepard's (if he had one.) Shepard wasn't indoctrinated then, he was under the process but it had not completed. At the Cerberus base the VI SAYS that TIM tweaked it so that it couldn't detect indoctrination. Javik? Javik just woke from 50,000 years of being in stasis. His mind is not at its best you know.

IT makes ALOT more sense than the ending does. In fact, it fills so many plot holes that narrative coherence begins to show it's self once more.

There is nothing in the games to support Shepard was ungoing indoctrination. And the only rebuttal you hear from people in this thread is there's no evidence because it's happening to you!" Which disregards the fact that others around would recognize you indoctrination, and more importantly, is using the absence of evidence to support their theory.

No point in going on, people are free to believe what they will.

Yes, there is. What supports it is everything said about indoctriantion and the fact TIM controls Shep at the end of the game.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.

[BigGuy28]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing is depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give use real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone every selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can and so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

This

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They have...They have been doing it since ME1. The have the codex. To say that they need to explain so people who were not paying atteinsion can understand is like someone saying that they need to explain everything at the end of inception for it to be good when they fell asleep the first part of the moive that explained everything.

I disagree.  To reiterate with a slightly different emphasis - the fact that indoctrination exists in the setting does not mean Shepard is being indoctrinated.  Similarly, the fact that biotics exist in the setting does not mean Shepard is a biotic.  He *can* be, based upon player choice, but he isn't necessarily.

I didn't say that they need to explain so people who weren't paying attention can understand.  I listed several brief points previously and that was not one of them.

Yes, they have...
  

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.

Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.

Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

We're not playing the game in first-person, even though we control Shepard for the most part. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't know he's becoming indoctrinated, WE as players should. OTHER characters in the game should as well. Shepard says NOTHINg in any of the 3 games in where he begins to question his motives of destroying the Reapers or the motives of the Reapers themselves.

The whole point of a plot twist is for us not to know. How many good plot twists (and I mean GOOD) have you seen coming? And then you realised "oooooooh" and tell your self how stupid you were because you didn't see it.

There are TONNES of things that point towards the IT. There are plausible, valid, and invalid suggestions through-out, but there are more things that hint towards it than things that don't.

The Prothean VI? In Thessia there were thousands of Reapers, and Kai-Leng, two Reaper signals far stronger than Shepard's (if he had one.) Shepard wasn't indoctrinated then, he was under the process but it had not completed. At the Cerberus base the VI SAYS that TIM tweaked it so that it couldn't detect indoctrination. Javik? Javik just woke from 50,000 years of being in stasis. His mind is not at its best you know.

IT makes ALOT more sense than the ending does. In fact, it fills so many plot holes that narrative coherence begins to show it's self once more.

There is nothing in the games to support Shepard was ungoing indoctrination. And the only rebuttal you hear from people in this thread is there's no evidence because it's happening to you!" Which disregards the fact that others around would recognize you indoctrination, and more importantly, is using the absence of evidence to support their theory.

No point in going on, people are free to believe what they will.

Yes, there is. What supports it is everything said about indoctriantion and the fact TIM controls Shep at the end of the game.

And then TIM loses control and dies.  Shepard is shown as being controlled for only a very brief period.

[TODD9999]

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, they have...
  

Yes, Rana Thanoptis was indoctrinated. 

This attempts to address 1 out of my 4 brief points, and I find it unconvincing.  Again, the existence of indoctrination in the Mass Effect setting does not mean Indoctrination Theory is true.

EDIT: Again, to be perfectly clear - you don't have to try to convince me.  I'm not trying to convince you it isn't true - I'm just stating the evidence I've seen indicates it's an interesting and amusing fan theory, but not one that was intended by the developers, nor is it one that I myself agree with.  If you want to think it's true, then that's your call.

Modifié par TODD9999, 10 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[Gorkan86]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can and so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Agree.
It seems no one cares about it, the forum is constantly a crowd of people arguing with each other and prowling Intrenet in search of new reasons for the dispute. Was it the idea bioware or not is not important. This works in their favor so far.

Modifié par Gorkan86, 10 mai 2012 - 06:41 .

[jasonxxsatanna]

Hadeedak, how does IT create more problems then it solves?
To the people who are say why does the prothy VI not detect indoctrination in Shep or Javik for that matter, 1st since ME 1 Laira said it best Shep is incredibly strong willed , a lesser mind would have been killed getting hit by the beacon, this would also be the reason he is able to resist indoctrination as long as he has , but the strain of war and love ones dying had taken its toll on him

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.

Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

How can I make this clear.....
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after Arrival?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after The collector base?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after I saw some one turned to a paste.
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after virmire?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after bring down the sky?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams as a soul servior?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  as a clonist?

I can go on.....
And there a few facts to consider.
1.Reapers, reaper tech, husk, and reaper agents can indoctriante.
2.Shepard by reaper tech on and off for 3 years.
3. Cerbeuse can only control people who are implanted with reaper tech or has a form of indoctriantion.
4. TIm controls shepard at the end of ME3.
5. Indcortination is subtle and shows know sign till it's too late...

So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, they have...
  

Yes, Rana Thanoptis was indoctrinated. 

This attempts to address 1 out of my 4 brief points, and I find it unconvincing.  Again, the existence of indoctrination in the Mass Effect setting does not mean Indoctrination Theory is true.

EDIT: Again, to be perfectly clear - you don't have to try to convince me.  I'm not trying to convince you it isn't true - I'm just stating the evidence I've seen indicates it's an interesting and amusing fan theory, but not one that was intended by the developers, nor is it one that I myself agree with.  If you want to think it's true, then that's your call.

But the fact tha Shepard has 3 year of on and off contact, Has every symtom of indoctriation during ME3 and is control by TIM at the end of ME3 does.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 mai 2012 - 06:48 .

[dreman9999]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Let me ask a simple question. Not IT pro or anti. Just a pure simple question for everyone.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SHEPARD TO BE AFFECTED BY REAPER INDOCTRINATION WAVES???
I am not talking about full on indoctrination control. Just to be simply affected.

Yes. 

[dreman9999]

TODD9999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Yes, they have...
  

EDIT: Again, to be perfectly clear - you don't have to try to convince me.  I'm not trying to convince you it isn't true - I'm just stating the evidence I've seen indicates it's an interesting and amusing fan theory, but not one that was intended by the developers, nor is it one that I myself agree with.  If you want to think it's true, then that's your call.

Then you need to read the lasr hours app. IT MAKES IT CLEAR THE DEVS THOUGH T OF IT.

[balance5050]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give use real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Indoctrination is in all 3 games, are all 3 games bad writing? Please play the first two games, read the comics, do your research, then get back to us=]

[SubAstris]

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

If it's subtle why it's need cover? It's subtle after all.

[EsterCloat]

balance5050 wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

IT is a fan made theory based mostly off graphical errors and poor writing. The whole thing depends on the idea that BioWare knowingly did not sell us a complete game and has chosen to give use real ending at a later time. To my knowledge there is no past example of anyone ever selling a game without a real ending. I know of DLCs that have changed and extended game endings but there is not a single example of a game that was sold without an ending. 

I could spend weeks arguing about and proving wrong in-game "evidence'' of IT but I dont need to because the real world gives us a much easier way to prove it wrong. ME was a massive investment for EA and BioWare and their writing, marketing, and PR teams would not risk ME3s longer term profitability by not giving the game an end. We already see the fan outrage when the ending to such a loved series fails this hard...can you imagine the outrage if they tried to sell us the 'real ending' for 10$?

The free EC was a marketing move to try and save sales for MEs DLC not to give us the ending we should have gotten anyway. The reason they dont deny IT is simple marketing. Should BioWare come out and say it is false the die hard ITers will lose interest and that will hurt profits. The real goal is to keep as many people on board as they can so that when EC comes out more people download it and possibly enjoy the expansion regardless and buy other DLC.

Indoctrination is in all 3 games, are all 3 games bad writing? Please play the first two games, read the comics, do your research, then get back to us=]

He didn't say anything about indoctrination not being present. Nice totally misconstruing his post and not addressing his points at all, however.

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

Shepard is partly indoctrinated/controlled by TIM if you take the ending literally.

That's the point of this entire topic. Read the opening comment.

[SirCroft]

I think both sides should remember that this is a theory.
Pro-ITs should stop considering it a fact, as much as we might believe it, ans Anti-ITs should get the pole out of their asses and respect what we choose to believe. You're the ones questioning the theory, so you should be the ones providing evidence (Questions aren't evidence), not the other way around (Although, obviously, there's a lot of plausible evidence for the theory, whether you like it or not.).

Modifié par SirCroft, 10 mai 2012 - 06:54 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

If it was indoctrination, he would be hearing the voices, hallucinating, etc. while awake. All of this happens when he's in bed sleeping, then he wakes up, and it's gone. Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests it's connected to sleep. It's always been in the form of hearing voices/seeing things while fully awake.

Object Rho caused scientists and guards to have recurring nightmares where their loved ones were vaporized...
It indoctinated them...

That never happened though, Shepard relived the death of a child whilst being haunted by the voices of the dead... And Diana Allers.

Shepards dreams are indicative of survivors guilt, no matter how random the event that triggered them appears to be to most fans.

Do under stand the concept of subtle. Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle? I would think so.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from speaking down to me in the future, thanks.

Also, wouldn't someone who was experiencing survivors guild dream like someone suffering from survivors guilt? I would think so.

Agein..
 Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

Again, wouldn't someone suffering from survivors guilt show the symptoms of someone suffering from survivors guilt?

Simply repeating the same point does nothing to make mine any less valid.

How can I make this clear.....
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after Arrival?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after he collector base?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams after I saw some one turned to a paste.
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after virmire?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  after bring down the sky?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams as a soul servior?
Where was my survivor guilt dreams  as a clonist?

Bioware hadn't thought of it yet, although Shep shows signs of guilt after several events throughout the first 2 games, perhaps seeing Earth being attacked so violently and then this kid dieing was his tipping point.

I can go on.....
And there a few facts to consider.
1.Reapers, reaper tech, husk, and reaper agents can indoctriante.
2.Shepard by reaper tech on and off for 3 years.
3. Cerbeuse can only control people who are implanted with reaper tech or has a form of indoctriantion.
4. TIm controls shepard at the end of ME3.
5. Indcortination is subtle and shows know sign till it's too late...

1. Duh, doesn't prove anything. Fire can burn, doesn't mean Shepard needs to run to the ICU whenever somethings ablaze.
2. Not that much exposure really, if you speed-run it.
3. I'm not getting into this debate again.
4. Yeah, controls, NOT indoctrinates.
5. It shows signs to people on the outside, someone would have flagged it seeing as how everyone would be on edge.

So.... Wouldn't subtle indoctrination use survivers guilt as a cover to be subtle?

Stop it.

[Hadeedak]

Because IT doesn't remove plotholes, just change them to a whole new set.

And because Shepard's symptoms don't match either sort of indoctrination we've seen.