109 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well it's been a point of emphasis that he is incredibly strong willed. Apparently this is enough to stave off indoctrination for a while.

Also keep in mind that while he has been around a lot of Reaper forces and technology, he's never around these things for a long, extended period of time (besides Object Rho). He usually kills any Reaper forces in proximity to him within a minute or two. The only direct contact he had with a Reaper was the Derelict Reaper, which was dead and thus the process of indoctrination could not be consciously willed or controlled. Plus he was only onboard like 20-30 minutes.

The Codex says it takes days of weeks for indoctrination to take hold. But it doesn't really specify whether or not it is a cumulative effect. For example, if Shepard stood next to a Reaper for 1 minute each day for a year, would he ever be indoctrinated? Or does it have to be a continuous exposure, i.e. Shepard has to be next to a Reaper for several days, but if he leaves, the whole process starts over again?

Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech for almost 4 years.

Did you even read my post?

And no, that's a gross exaggeration.

[Kreid]

Fast indoctrination would render Shepard useless in weeks, Harbinger obviously would want full indoctrination and that takes weeks or even months for subjects with strong will power, months.of.continuous.indoctrination.

Shepard is not immune but s/he is clean.

[Talogrungi]

EsterCloat wrote...

The most he's ever spent near any Reaper source of indoctrination in canon is the derelict Reaper, which was an hour tops. Indoctrination takes days, sometimes weeks, of constant exposure to work a person down.

Negative; all Reaper tech and even their ground troops are sources of the indoctrination signal. Shep's had more than enough exposure to be in (at the very least) the early stages of indoctrination.

Modifié par Talogrungi, 10 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well it's been a point of emphasis that he is incredibly strong willed. Apparently this is enough to stave off indoctrination for a while.

Also keep in mind that while he has been around a lot of Reaper forces and technology, he's never around these things for a long, extended period of time (besides Object Rho). He usually kills any Reaper forces in proximity to him within a minute or two. The only direct contact he had with a Reaper was the Derelict Reaper, which was dead and thus the process of indoctrination could not be consciously willed or controlled. Plus he was only onboard like 20-30 minutes.

The Codex says it takes days of weeks for indoctrination to take hold. But it doesn't really specify whether or not it is a cumulative effect. For example, if Shepard stood next to a Reaper for 1 minute each day for a year, would he ever be indoctrinated? Or does it have to be a continuous exposure, i.e. Shepard has to be next to a Reaper for several days, but if he leaves, the whole process starts over again?

Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech for almost 4 years.

Did you even read my post?

And no, that's a gross exaggeration.

3 years have passed since the beginning of Mass Effect 1 and the end of Mass Effect 2 and 6 months between the Arrival and Mass Effect 3.


Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech that long.

[EsterCloat]

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well it's been a point of emphasis that he is incredibly strong willed. Apparently this is enough to stave off indoctrination for a while.

Also keep in mind that while he has been around a lot of Reaper forces and technology, he's never around these things for a long, extended period of time (besides Object Rho). He usually kills any Reaper forces in proximity to him within a minute or two. The only direct contact he had with a Reaper was the Derelict Reaper, which was dead and thus the process of indoctrination could not be consciously willed or controlled. Plus he was only onboard like 20-30 minutes.

The Codex says it takes days of weeks for indoctrination to take hold. But it doesn't really specify whether or not it is a cumulative effect. For example, if Shepard stood next to a Reaper for 1 minute each day for a year, would he ever be indoctrinated? Or does it have to be a continuous exposure, i.e. Shepard has to be next to a Reaper for several days, but if he leaves, the whole process starts over again?

Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech for almost 4 years.

When? When he was on a derelict Reaper for an hour? When he talked to Sovereign and nameless Rannoch Reaper for three minutes each? When he was dead for two years? When has Shepard had prolonged exposure to Reapers?

[Leafs43]

EsterCloat wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well it's been a point of emphasis that he is incredibly strong willed. Apparently this is enough to stave off indoctrination for a while.

Also keep in mind that while he has been around a lot of Reaper forces and technology, he's never around these things for a long, extended period of time (besides Object Rho). He usually kills any Reaper forces in proximity to him within a minute or two. The only direct contact he had with a Reaper was the Derelict Reaper, which was dead and thus the process of indoctrination could not be consciously willed or controlled. Plus he was only onboard like 20-30 minutes.

The Codex says it takes days of weeks for indoctrination to take hold. But it doesn't really specify whether or not it is a cumulative effect. For example, if Shepard stood next to a Reaper for 1 minute each day for a year, would he ever be indoctrinated? Or does it have to be a continuous exposure, i.e. Shepard has to be next to a Reaper for several days, but if he leaves, the whole process starts over again?

Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech for almost 4 years.

When? When he was on a derelict Reaper for an hour? When he talked to Sovereign and nameless Rannoch Reaper for three minutes each? When he was dead for two years? When has Shepard had prolonged exposure to Reapers?

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

[EsterCloat]

Talogrungi wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

The most he's ever spent near any Reaper source of indoctrination in canon is the derelict Reaper, which was an hour tops. Indoctrination takes days, sometimes weeks, of constant exposure to work a person down.

Negative; all Reaper tech and even their ground troops are sources of the indoctrination signal. Shep's had more than enough exposure to be in (at the very least) the early stages of indoctrination.

When was it said that Reaper ground troops were sources of indoctrination?

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well it's been a point of emphasis that he is incredibly strong willed. Apparently this is enough to stave off indoctrination for a while.

Also keep in mind that while he has been around a lot of Reaper forces and technology, he's never around these things for a long, extended period of time (besides Object Rho). He usually kills any Reaper forces in proximity to him within a minute or two. The only direct contact he had with a Reaper was the Derelict Reaper, which was dead and thus the process of indoctrination could not be consciously willed or controlled. Plus he was only onboard like 20-30 minutes.

The Codex says it takes days of weeks for indoctrination to take hold. But it doesn't really specify whether or not it is a cumulative effect. For example, if Shepard stood next to a Reaper for 1 minute each day for a year, would he ever be indoctrinated? Or does it have to be a continuous exposure, i.e. Shepard has to be next to a Reaper for several days, but if he leaves, the whole process starts over again?

Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech for almost 4 years.

Did you even read my post?

And no, that's a gross exaggeration.

3 years have passed since the beginning of Mass Effect 1 and the end of Mass Effect 2 and 6 months between the Arrival and Mass Effect 3.


Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech that long.

Yeah it's pretty obvious you didn't read my post, and that your mind is made up.

Shepard was also dead for two of those years. And it's not like he spent every waking second around Reaper tech. His missions usually take 20-30 minutes each. So all this 'exposure' probably amounts to less than a day of constant exposure. The two exceptions are the Derelict Reaper and Object Rho...which I talked about in my post that you ignored.

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

You definitely just made that up.

[EsterCloat]

Leafs43 wrote...

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

What.

[Talogrungi]

EsterCloat wrote...

When? When he was on a derelict Reaper for an hour? When he talked to Sovereign and nameless Rannoch Reaper for three minutes each? When he was dead for two years? When has Shepard had prolonged exposure to Reapers?

You're missing the core argument; Reaper technology does not just mean "A Reaper".

Indoctrination is explained as a sonic/subliminal signal; signals can easily be transmitted.

[macrocarl]

Shep's the one person in the whole universe that has been that doused with Reaper tech run-ins and not be indoctrinated, that is, until he hits the threshhold at the end of ME3.

[Kreid]

Leafs43 wrote...
Sheperd has been exposed to reaper tech that long.

You DO realize indoctrination is a subtle process that has to be inflicted continously to the target in order to have effect right? Even if the Reapers could somehow reach Shepard with the signal through husks the time you spend fighting them is insignificant in com parision with the time Shepard spends safely in the Normandy and other places, I doubt that Shepard has even suffered three days long of continous indoctrination, much less the time required to break his/her will.

[Talogrungi]

EsterCloat wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

The most he's ever spent near any Reaper source of indoctrination in canon is the derelict Reaper, which was an hour tops. Indoctrination takes days, sometimes weeks, of constant exposure to work a person down.

Negative; all Reaper tech and even their ground troops are sources of the indoctrination signal. Shep's had more than enough exposure to be in (at the very least) the early stages of indoctrination.

When was it said that Reaper ground troops were sources of indoctrination?

It's in the codex:

"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals"

[cogsandcurls]

Of course she's not immune. Why would she be?

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

You definitely just made that up.

Indoctrination really is like a cancer.

Cancer, it develops faster when constantly exposed to a carcinigen.  Take cigarettes for example.  The more you smoke the bigger your chances of getting lung cancer are.  But the waitress who is smoke free works in a smoke filled dinner.  20 years later she finds out she has lung cancer when she never smoked a cigarette in her life.


Now think about indoctrination.  Sovereign, object rho, the derelict reaper, the masses of husks, etc... are all "cigarette smoke" and Sheperd is "the waitress".  All the cigarette smoke had to do was plant the seed for cancer and the cancer does the rest.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 mai 2012 - 07:28 .

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

You definitely just made that up.

Indoctrination really is like a cancer.

Cancer, it develops faster when constantly exposed to a carcinigen.  Take cigarettes for example.  The more you smoke the bigger your chances of getting lung cancer are.  But the waitress who is smoke free works in a smoke filled dinner.  20 years later she finds out she has lung cancer when she never smoked a cigarette in her life.


Now think about indoctrination.  Sovereign, object rho, the derelict reaper, the masses of husks, etc... are all "cigarette smoke" and Sheperd is "the waitress".  All the cigarette smoke had to do was plant the seed for cancer.

You have failed to provide proof that there is any weight to your comparison. you say that Indoctrination is like a cancer, explain how you can get cancer without smoking, and then say indoctrination is the same, without explaining your proof for how and why it is the same.

[Bill Casey]

fr33stylez wrote...

And if you never played Arrival and visited Object Rho?

Then the Rachni are still around, Illusive Man salvages the wreckage, Padok Wiks cures the Genophage, and Geth VI hangs out in your ship...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 mai 2012 - 07:31 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Shepard isn't indoctrinated. That is all.

[EsterCloat]

Talogrungi wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

The most he's ever spent near any Reaper source of indoctrination in canon is the derelict Reaper, which was an hour tops. Indoctrination takes days, sometimes weeks, of constant exposure to work a person down.

Negative; all Reaper tech and even their ground troops are sources of the indoctrination signal. Shep's had more than enough exposure to be in (at the very least) the early stages of indoctrination.

When was it said that Reaper ground troops were sources of indoctrination?

It's in the codex:

"Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals"

Yes I've seen that but that doesn't mean that the ground troops can send the signal or energy field by themselves. It could easily mean that they can only amplify and extend the reach of a Reaper's field when they are in range themselves. Thus the use of the word amplify rather than recreate or copy.

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Think of indoctrination like cancer.

It doesn't matter how small it starts but in the end it builds uncontrollably.

You definitely just made that up.

Indoctrination really is like a cancer.

Cancer, it develops faster when constantly exposed to a carcinigen.  Take cigarettes for example.  The more you smoke the bigger your chances of getting lung cancer are.  But the waitress who is smoke free works in a smoke filled dinner.  20 years later she finds out she has lung cancer when she never smoked a cigarette in her life.


Now think about indoctrination.  Sovereign, object rho, the derelict reaper, the masses of husks, etc... are all "cigarette smoke" and Sheperd is "the waitress".  All the cigarette smoke had to do was plant the seed for cancer.

You have failed to provide proof that there is any weight to your comparison. you say that Indoctrination is like a cancer, explain how you can get cancer without smoking, and then say indoctrination is the same, without explaining your proof for how and why it is the same.

You are obviosuly not very good at analytics and analogies.


All the reapers ever had to do was plant the seed of indoctrination in Sheperd and that gives them an "in".  And from there they can grow it.  More exposure just gives them a wider window.



Harbinger controlled an entire species from dark space.  I think he can manage an indoctrination attempt on one individual from the same spot.

[Sepharih]

Talogrungi wrote...

He kinda does. He's had an ungodly amount of exposure to Reaper technology and influence; if he's completely free of indoctrination then he must be immune .. and that's a plot hole because there is nothing to suggest that he would be.

If nothing else, he should be suffering some negative reactions from his exposure to the infra/ultrasound/electromagnetic elements of the indoctrination signal. It's one of the (many) reasons that IT is so popular; it's fairly mind-boggling to completely disregard a weapon as pernicious as indoctrination.

I agree.  Even though I don't think Bioware intended Indoctrination and the clues for it...it really is rather headscratching how the game totally sidesteps the threat of indoctrination both to Shepard and his squadmates.  I mean think about it...it's a great plot device to sow distrust between you and your squad, and the tension between you and the virmire survivor is practically BEGGING for one of you to be revealed as a double agent.
Think about the tension and distrust  the one ring caused between Frodo and those who, otherwise, he would have known as his greatest friends.

Instead of that...indoctrination feels more like a way to create shock value on random missions with unknown characters or as an excuse to explain otherwise questionable character motivations and alliance changes.

[Raiil]

The problem is that you're equating it like:

A. Indoctrination is caused by being in close proximity to Reaper tech.
B. There is Reaper tech in game.
C. Shepard spends time near Reaper Tech.
D. Therefore, Shepard is indoctrinated.

There are several gaps in that equation that provide room for reasonable doubt. Until those gaps can be empiracly proved, it can't move beyond hypothesis.

[Bill Casey]

Wulfram wrote...

One brief visit to a destroyed reaper and a few momentary meetings isn't enough to indoctrinate you.  Remember, Shepard may have never encountered Object Rho.

He may have, though...
So you're saying he's immune...

[Leafs43]

Valentia X wrote...

The problem is that you're equating it like:

A. Indoctrination is caused by being in close proximity to Reaper tech.
B. There is Reaper tech in game.
C. Shepard spends time near Reaper Tech.
D. Therefore, Shepard is indoctrinated.

There are several gaps in that equation that provide room for reasonable doubt. Until those gaps can be empiracly proved, it can't move beyond hypothesis.

I never said Sheperd was indoctrinated.

I did imply however that it is possible to become indoctrinated from exposure to reaper tech, even if brief (especially if the reapers absolutely want to indoctrinate someone).