162 réponses à ce sujet

[Zombie Chow]

Whoa, good catch, op.

[Seival]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

I figured that out when i was looking at it, and was still confused as to why Control was "paragon"...

Technically when looking at the wheel the paragon and renegade are on the opposite sides as shown in the image the OP posted.

If you want to slap colors to the choices that would make:
Red = Paragon = Destory - Altrusistic primary pragmatic secondary.
Blue = Renegade = Control - Pragmatic primary altrusistic secondary.

Also I caught this a while ago in my first playthough and was playing around with the idea of writing something up on it.

Someone here already suggested to rotate the scheme 180 degrees. But according to this, "Investigate" will be on the right side of the wheel, which is not correct. Do not forget that Paragon and Renegade options are also located on the right side of the wheel - they just aren't colored and don't require reputation points to be available... I just colored them in the scheme according to the corresponding explosions colors.

Modifié par Seival, 12 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[Seival]

Zombie Chow wrote...

Whoa, good catch, op.

Thanks

[Seival]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Thats actually quite interesting. And it strengthens the idea that control is paragon and destroy is renegade.

Paragon choices are generally about taking risks in order to solve a greater threat. You risk giving the rachni and the heretic geth a second chance so that they might help against the greater threat of the Reapers. You save the Council despite the risk of not being able to defeat Sovereign, because of the risk the loss of the Council poses to galactic stability. You destroy the collector base because of the risk Cerberus might pose to the galaxy once/if the reapers are defeated. Paragon choices are generally risky in the short run, with the aim of solving the long term problems. Control is very much paragon in this regard - you take the risk of trying to control the Reapers, and allowing them to live, in order to ensure there is a solution to the long-term threat: that synthetics and organics will eventually come to blows again, and synthetics will win.

Renegade choices on the other hand are all about ensuring galactic safety by eliminating all threats. Sovereign is the immediate threat, so you sacrifice the Council. The heretic geth and the rachni are an immediate threat, so you wipe them out despite the fact that they may be able to help you against the long term threat of the Reapers. You keep the collector base because of the imminent threat of the Reapers, despite the potential risk Cerberus poses in the long run. With regards to the endings, destroy focuses on the short term risk - the Reapers - and ignore the long-term risk - the eventual extinction of organic life at the hands of synthetics. Hence why I think its the renegade choice.

The paragon and renegade dialogue choices often boil down to 'good' and 'evil-ish', but the paragon and renegade story choices generally follow this pattern - paragon choices focus on the long-term threat despite the short-term risks of the choice, and renegade choices focus on elminating the short term threat despite the consequences in the long run. Neither is painted as 'good' or 'bad', so people trying to say that contol is renegade because it is represrnted by TIM or that destroy is paragon because its represented by Anderson are, in my opinion, a bit off the mark. But this is just my interpretation of the endings.

100% agree.

[AtlasMickey]

Duh.

[Phaedra Sanguine]

I actually thought that was pretty obvious...

[Seival]

Paxcorpus wrote...

I actually thought that was pretty obvious...

Agree. But I was too angry about last 5 minutes of the game on my first playthrough to notice some obvious things

...My second playthrough is on hold till the Extended Cut release. I'll get to the "point of no return" (the one before the attack on Cerberus Base), and then I'll wait for EC.

Modifié par Seival, 12 mai 2012 - 01:53 .

[Sepharih]

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

bro_9009 wrote...

If we rotate this image 180 degrees, Destroy becomes Paragon choice (like persuasion attempts on the wheel). And Control is Renegade, Synthesis - something useless.

Then Investigate should turn into the usual "I should go", or like "Die, you bastard, I'm not going to persuade you". Shame we don't get this in the game.

I don't like this idea. TIM's desire to control the Reapers doesn't make the option renegade. You should look at Control option from another perspective. As I said, in Control ending Shepard can stop the Reaper threat without killing anyone in the process. Even Shepard herself/himself stays alive without any kind of "secret cutscene" involved. She/He just become a new Catalist or Reaper. Control is pure Paragon option.

Yeah...if you take the self admitted originator of the entire galactic Genocide at face value, which is something I flat out refuse to do.  Especially not after I just convinced the Illusive man to shoot himself because neither he or humanity was ready for such power.  Control is an absolute power that is destined to corrupt absolutely, and it's thematically inconssistent with the themes of the story.

Well, I disagree that Control the Reapers = absolute power... Also I disagree that any kind of power (even absolute) will 100% corrupt someone. It depends on person who has this power. Shepard can just send the Reapers back to darkspace and put them into sleep mode. After that Shepard can make sure that Reapers will never wake up again... Or, Shepard can wake up Reapers to use them against some threats, that may occur in subsecquent games in Mass Effect Universe  

If you assume spacebrat is being completely honest and upfront, then replacing him and controlling the reapers effectively makes Shepard an imortal God, and no one man should have that much power.  It's not a thing mankind was ready for even IF they could control it.  Again, my paragon Shepard just told TIM exactly that before he shot himself in revelation of what he had become.
How exactly is this supposed to be a pure paragon option when it's effectively the antithesis of the entire paragon arc and the exact goal of the character who embodies the renegade ideal?

Each paragon reply in the final dialogue with TIM is actually a proof that Shepard is ready to control the Reapers, and TIM isn't (and never was). Control ending is not about following TIM's footsteps, it's about stopping the Reapers without additional deaths of innocent people. 

Each paragon reply is an affirmation that TIM, humanity, and shepard are not ready to control the reapers because shepard flat out states: "We're not ready".
Shepard even says: "If we destroy the reapers, this ends today, but if you can't control them.....are you willing to bet humanity's existance on it?"
If you take the ending at face value, Shepard pulls a complete 180 in the five minutes between convincing the illusive man to shoot himself, and the ride up to the literal Deus Ex Machina.  There's no way around that.

Did you know that usually the ones who fairly admit that they are not ready, are actually much more ready to something than anyone else?... I'm talking about moral and responsibility, not some "shopping process". Listening to my Paragon Shepard I had to admit, that she is ready to Control the Reapers, and to the following responsibility.

Nope, sorry, that logic doesn't apply because even if you believe space brat this isn't something that's thrust upon Shepard.  It's a choice he/she actively has to make.  Shepard has to actively choose to completely ignore everything he/she just told TIM and decide that they're now somehow special and ready to take control of the giant genocidal monsters that are infamous for corrupting and controling people.
For a paragon shep, it's inescapably hypocritical.

Shepard said "So, the TIM was right after all...", remember? And Catalist confirmed that. You think it lied? No, it didn't. Even in the current Control ending you can see that Reapers are following Shepard's orders. So no doubt Shepard became new Catalist or a Reaper that has full control of the entire Reaper fleet.

Yeah, shepard said "TIM was right after all...".  And?  How is that an answer to my challenge.  Where is the compelling argument or series of events that changes shepard's mind?
All I see is a previously unseen character, who by his own admission is the one responsible for the entire genocide, making supposedly divine proclomations and shepard just nodding along like an idiot despite having every concievable reason to question what he says.
And yes, the Catalyst is a lying manipulative little bosh'tet and I distrusted him the second he chose to assume a form that was clearly designed to a) make him seem more sympathetic and b)worse, to appeal to Shepard's guilt and self doubt.

[Seival]

Sepharih wrote...

Yeah, shepard said "TIM was right after all...".  And?  How is that an answer to my challenge. (1) Where is the compelling argument or series of events that changes shepard's mind?
All I see is a previously unseen character, who by his own admission is the one responsible for the entire genocide, making supposedly divine proclomations and shepard just nodding along like an idiot despite having every concievable reason to question what he says.
(2) And yes, the Catalyst is a lying manipulative little bosh'tet and I distrusted him the second he chose to assume a form that was clearly designed to a) make him seem more sympathetic and b)worse, to appeal to Shepard's guilt and self doubt.

(1) You just upset because Shepard changes her mind too fast. But she is a soldier. She was trained to think fast in extrime situations.

(2) Catalist has no reason to lie. It could just do nothing and wait till wounded Shepard dies because of blood loss.

Modifié par Seival, 12 mai 2012 - 03:02 .

[Sepharih]

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Yeah, shepard said "TIM was right after all...".  And?  How is that an answer to my challenge. (1) Where is the compelling argument or series of events that changes shepard's mind?
All I see is a previously unseen character, who by his own admission is the one responsible for the entire genocide, making supposedly divine proclomations and shepard just nodding along like an idiot despite having every concievable reason to question what he says.
(2) And yes, the Catalyst is a lying manipulative little bosh'tet and I distrusted him the second he chose to assume a form that was clearly designed to a) make him seem more sympathetic and b)worse, to appeal to Shepard's guilt and self doubt.

(1) You just upset because Shepard changes her mind too fast. But she is a soldier. She was trained to think fast in extrime situations.

 

Yes, i'm extremely upset how quickly Shepard changes her mind.  What kind of excuse is it that she "thinks fast in extreme situations".  What is supposed to be her logical thought process, becasue this is basically how it plays out in game:

Shepard: "You're wrong TIM!  Are you so certain you can control them that you're willing to risk humanity's existance on it?!?  We cannot control the reapers, and even if we could, we're not ready.

TIM: "You.....you're right shepard....I'm sorry" (shoots self).

Space Brat: "Lol, actually he couldn't control us, but you can."

Shepard: "For reals?"

Space Brat: "Scouts honor."

Shepard: "SUCK IT TIM!!!"

How is that supposed to be "pure paragon"?

Seival wrote... 
(2) Catalist has no reason to lie. It could just do nothing and wait till wounded Shepard dies because of blood loss.

The catalyst has every reason to lie because Shepard effectively has a gun pointed at his head and the rest of the galaxy.  Even if he was ultimately telling the truth it's pretty ridiculous that Shepard never gets the option to question him or challenge what he's saying.

[SlyTF1]

This is the "artistic integrity" they where talking about? THIS was the reason they didn't want to change the endings, because they where so proud of making the damn choices symbolic to a diologue wheel? Are you serious!? This is the reason the endings won't change? This is the reason I spent days depressed, slitting my wrists in a corner because of the way the Catalyst's chamber is shaped!!!??? No!!! NO!!!!! No, no, no!!! WHY!!!!???? WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY!!!!!!!!?????

[The Angry One]

Should I gain amusement from the fact that synthesis is the neutral choice in a game with no neutral choices? Or should I start crying?

[shevrikuka]

The Angry One wrote...

Should I gain amusement from the fact that synthesis is the neutral choice in a game with no neutral choices? Or should I start crying?

I have another question. Should I gain amusement from the fact that synthesis is the 'best ending' in series of games where neutral choice is usually the worst? Oh wait. Not usually. Always.

[Seival]

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Yeah, shepard said "TIM was right after all...".  And?  How is that an answer to my challenge. (1) Where is the compelling argument or series of events that changes shepard's mind?
All I see is a previously unseen character, who by his own admission is the one responsible for the entire genocide, making supposedly divine proclomations and shepard just nodding along like an idiot despite having every concievable reason to question what he says.
(2) And yes, the Catalyst is a lying manipulative little bosh'tet and I distrusted him the second he chose to assume a form that was clearly designed to a) make him seem more sympathetic and b)worse, to appeal to Shepard's guilt and self doubt.

(1) You just upset because Shepard changes her mind too fast. But she is a soldier. She was trained to think fast in extrime situations.

 

Yes, i'm extremely upset how quickly Shepard changes her mind.  What kind of excuse is it that she "thinks fast in extreme situations".  What is supposed to be her logical thought process, becasue this is basically how it plays out in game:

Shepard: "You're wrong TIM!  Are you so certain you can control them that you're willing to risk humanity's existance on it?!?  We cannot control the reapers, and even if we could, we're not ready.

TIM: "You.....you're right shepard....I'm sorry" (shoots self).

Space Brat: "Lol, actually he couldn't control us, but you can."

Shepard: "For reals?"

Space Brat: "Scouts honor."

Shepard: "SUCK IT TIM!!!"

How is that supposed to be "pure paragon"?

Seival wrote... 
(2) Catalist has no reason to lie. It could just do nothing and wait till wounded Shepard dies because of blood loss.

The catalyst has every reason to lie because Shepard effectively has a gun pointed at his head and the rest of the galaxy.  Even if he was ultimately telling the truth it's pretty ridiculous that Shepard never gets the option to question him or challenge what he's saying.

(1) Just try to think about it without unnecessary anger. All endings need more explanations without a doubt. Hopefully, Extended Cut will answer all our questions. You will see, Control ending is Pure Paragon ending.

(2) Shepard could not do any harm to Catalist, becouse she faced avatar. A hologram. Without Catalist's help she even couldn't reach Catalist's chamber. Shepard's victory was about making Catalist understand that his crazy and sadistic "solution" doesn't work anymore. Holograms don't fear guns pointed at them.

[Ender99]

Well there's my neutral option I've been waiting for all game...................still sucks. XD

[Seival]

The Angry One wrote...

Should I gain amusement from the fact that synthesis is the neutral choice in a game with no neutral choices? Or should I start crying?

We should ask BioWare to remove "O_o" ending. They promised us not to add more endings, but they promised nothing about removing something. So I suppose they can consider removing Synthesis in the Extended Cut.

[Seival]

SlyTF1 wrote...

This is the "artistic integrity" they where talking about? THIS was the reason they didn't want to change the endings, because they where so proud of making the damn choices symbolic to a diologue wheel? Are you serious!? This is the reason the endings won't change? This is the reason I spent days depressed, slitting my wrists in a corner because of the way the Catalyst's chamber is shaped!!!??? No!!! NO!!!!! No, no, no!!! WHY!!!!???? WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY!!!!!!!!?????

Calm down, please

...Let's wait for Extended Cut. I hope it will make everyone happy.

[ananna21]

Not likely going to happen. A moving version of the dialogue wheel for the final moment of gameplay such a let down.

[Tom Lehrer]

The Angry One wrote...

Should I gain amusement from the fact that synthesis is the neutral choice in a game with no neutral choices? Or should I start crying?

I did not cry but I died a little.

[Mims]

Laaaawl.

Well, I guess its good to know my paragon's final act was to go full renegade when it mattered. Awwyeah.

Edit: Saw the comment about improving the final chamber. Yes. I doubt they will, but this would be very nice. I recall that one video making the point of "why did he shoot the tube." I do wonder why there is a "break glass in case of reaper invasion" tube up there. 

Modifié par Mims, 12 mai 2012 - 06:25 .

[Village_Idiot]

Mims wrote...

I do wonder why there is a "break glass in case of reaper invasion" tube up there.

This made me laugh.

So... is the EC going to add Persuade and Intimidate options?

Oh, and P.S: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 12 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[Seival]

Mims wrote...

Laaaawl.

Well, I guess its good to know my paragon's final act was to go full renegade when it mattered. Awwyeah.

Edit: Saw the comment about improving the final chamber. Yes. I doubt they will, but this would be very nice. I recall that one video making the point of "why did he shoot the tube." I do wonder why there is a "break glass in case of reaper invasion" tube up there. 

Yes, the hole idea about "glass tube", "control rods", and "green pillar of light" was terrible...

...I think the Catalist's chamber should look similar to the TIM's main office, but with no walls or ceiling. Just imagine:

 - Huge and shiny round floor.
 - Giant Earth and massive space battle above.
 - No other objects around (like the floor is just floating in the space).
 - Dialogue with Catalist's Avatar happens in the center of the chamber.
 - Player makes final Choice via dialogue options.

...

 - It's clear that Catalist's Avatar chan use any form.
 - So... using some dialogue options Shepard can demand Catalist to show it's true form.
 - After that Catalist's hologram will assume form of some unknown species...
 - And say that "they" were the first race to awake in this galaxy...

Extended Cut endings must be EPIC. Please, BioWare, don't let us down! 

[Belisarius09]

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Yeah, shepard said "TIM was right after all...".  And?  How is that an answer to my challenge. (1) Where is the compelling argument or series of events that changes shepard's mind?
All I see is a previously unseen character, who by his own admission is the one responsible for the entire genocide, making supposedly divine proclomations and shepard just nodding along like an idiot despite having every concievable reason to question what he says.
(2) And yes, the Catalyst is a lying manipulative little bosh'tet and I distrusted him the second he chose to assume a form that was clearly designed to a) make him seem more sympathetic and b)worse, to appeal to Shepard's guilt and self doubt.

(1) You just upset because Shepard changes her mind too fast. But she is a soldier. She was trained to think fast in extrime situations.

 

Yes, i'm extremely upset how quickly Shepard changes her mind.  What kind of excuse is it that she "thinks fast in extreme situations".  What is supposed to be her logical thought process, becasue this is basically how it plays out in game:

Shepard: "You're wrong TIM!  Are you so certain you can control them that you're willing to risk humanity's existance on it?!?  We cannot control the reapers, and even if we could, we're not ready.

TIM: "You.....you're right shepard....I'm sorry" (shoots self).

Space Brat: "Lol, actually he couldn't control us, but you can."

Shepard: "For reals?"

Space Brat: "Scouts honor."

Shepard: "SUCK IT TIM!!!"

How is that supposed to be "pure paragon"?

Seival wrote... 
(2) Catalist has no reason to lie. It could just do nothing and wait till wounded Shepard dies because of blood loss.

The catalyst has every reason to lie because Shepard effectively has a gun pointed at his head and the rest of the galaxy.  Even if he was ultimately telling the truth it's pretty ridiculous that Shepard never gets the option to question him or challenge what he's saying.

(1) Just try to think about it without unnecessary anger. All endings need more explanations without a doubt. Hopefully, Extended Cut will answer all our questions. You will see, Control ending is Pure Paragon ending.

(2) Shepard could not do any harm to Catalist, becouse she faced avatar. A hologram. Without Catalist's help she even couldn't reach Catalist's chamber. Shepard's victory was about making Catalist understand that his crazy and sadistic "solution" doesn't work anymore. Holograms don't fear guns pointed at them.

If they tyr to explain things in a way where control is pure paragon, THen I think i'd rather not even experience the EC.  Destroy right now, is the best option.  Thats the only good thing we currently have, if they demonize it in the EC then we will have nothing.  There is no way someone can rationalize and make control or synthesis seem like good things. 

[araisikewai]

What's the implication of shaping the Catalyst chamber exactly like a dialogue wheel?
It's to remind US that Shepard is actually INSIDE that game mechanic.
He is inside that little shaped dialogue wheel instead of in actual catalyst chamber. Inside the game mechanic IN the game. Inception style.
Like being inside the game piece instead of inside the game, a dream within a dream if you will. It's time to wakeup.
(but that's only if you believe in IT though)

Modifié par araisikewai, 12 mai 2012 - 09:20 .

[LadyWench]

Sepharih wrote...
Yes, i'm extremely upset how quickly Shepard changes her mind.  What kind of excuse is it that she "thinks fast in extreme situations".  What is supposed to be her logical thought process, becasue this is basically how it plays out in game:

Shepard: "You're wrong TIM!  Are you so certain you can control them that you're willing to risk humanity's existance on it?!?  We cannot control the reapers, and even if we could, we're not ready.

TIM: "You.....you're right shepard....I'm sorry" (shoots self).

Space Brat: "Lol, actually he couldn't control us, but you can."

Shepard: "For reals?"

Space Brat: "Scouts honor."

Shepard: "SUCK IT TIM!!!"

How is that supposed to be "pure paragon"?

THIS!!! Thank you.
If it weren't for the fact that Control is what TIM endorsed and Synthesis is what Saren endorsed, it wouldn't be such a leap of faith. But they are telling me the people whose a**es I spent so much time and effort kicking were not only right, but that both options have been the only benevolent choices all along!? *facepalm*
So. Much. Fail.