310 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathcall]

This kind of mass focus fire would only work if all ships had the same firing range. Which they don't. Also, reapers have better range than us, and they don't need to focus in order to one shot our vessels.

[Rip504]

Speculation?

How about this,what if we the galaxy are only facing the first wave of the Reaper assault?
What if there is still more to come? The Reapers had to FTL into our galaxy,there may still be more left out there in dark space. Still headed our way.  Sovereign also stated their numbers will darken the skies of every world.

Modifié par Rip504, 27 mai 2012 - 03:41 .

[Deathcall]

He didn't say they'd darken the skies of every world "at the same time"...

[linkblade0]

Deathcall wrote...

This kind of mass focus fire would only work if all ships had the same firing range. Which they don't. Also, reapers have better range than us, and they don't need to focus in order to one shot our vessels.

I would point out that 'firing range' has literally no limit in the vacuum of space.  If you fire a shot in space, It will keep moving until it hits something with enough mass to stop it.

[Byronic-Knight]

In the words of Steven Hackett:

"Then we take the fleets to Earth and take our chances."

[Scimal]

linkblade0 wrote...
Its space, if a sleeper cell and secretly rig an asteroid to fly into a relay we can attach thrusters to turn the Crucible, besides, with the high energy yield we could presumably charge it enough to fire at a reaper from halfway across a system.

It has thrusters, it's just not that agile, and hitting a Reaper would be incredibly difficult. The Crucible is too large to do much more than fire at a cluster of Reapers and hope to hit one.

Firing from halfway across a system pretty much ensures you miss. That gives the enemy anywhere from hours to days to avoid the blast.

deathcall wrote...

@ Scimal

I am afraid you don't see the entire picture, admiral.

The
objective is to deprive the reapers from access to the mass relays,
thus using their own strategy against them. We do not have sufficient
knowledge (yet) to control the relays, but we can certainely deny them
access to them by simply moving them away.

No, I understand that you want to deny them the Relay network. I just can't figure out what that does in the end.

They have FTL drives. They don't need the Relays to move about the galaxy. Even if it takes them a decade, they can still track you down. They don't care about time or resources.

c) The fight on Palaven has turned on the Turians favor, meaning reaper forces are already dwindling in their home system.

Last I heard, Garrus mentions that even with the Krogan forces in force on Palaven, they were still losing ground.

d) The Asari have the reapers on the defensive with their hit and run
tactics (or at least the had them on the defensive until Thessia was
hit)

Who says this?

g) Even traveling at 30 light years a day (rough estimate) it'd take
them a considerable amount of time to reach the next point in the
network. *** in all fairness, if what I looked up in wikipedia is
accurate, Arcturus (the star) is only 11 parsecs away from Sol, which
would mean like... 10 to 12 hours until they reach it... not a happy
thought I know ***

Pretty much my point. If you somehow take the Relays away from them, they simply FTL to their next objective. They don't really care how long it takes for them to get anywhere, and the Citadel races aren't going to be able to rebuild their entire civilization and produce a sizeable fleet to oppose the Reapers in the few years it would take the Reapers to reach them at the galactic rim.

We can't defeat them conventionally. The Citadel races simply don't have the firepower to eliminate the Reapers. I suppose you could play cat and mouse with the Reapers for a while if we could selectively activate Relays and stay ahead of the Reapers, but eventually a mobile fleet would run out of resources and the Reapers won't. Fleets need He3, repairs, and mimicing the Quarians would be impossible without an already-existing galactic economy to barter and scavenge off of.

I get that you want to steal the Citadel and use it, but given that we can't defeat the Reaper fleet now, I'm not seeing what delaying confrontation for a few decades (at most) would do. There's not enough time to build or develop anything.

[DRTJR]

Earth is a planet, that's all. Lul the reapers to the Charon relay and make the S.O.B. go boom. Give the yang a hell of a lot less reapers to fight.

[Darksaberexile]

I'm curious, what would the interaction between, say, a nuclear bomb and a giant mass effect core be?

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

It has thrusters, it's just not that agile, and hitting a Reaper would be incredibly difficult. The Crucible is too large to do much more than fire at a cluster of Reapers and hope to hit one.

Firing from halfway across a system pretty much ensures you miss. That gives the enemy anywhere from hours to days to avoid the blast.

Think of a weaponized crucible as a late-medieval ground canon. It's not bound to hit a lot, but it will put the enemy forces in disarray. Therotically, we could dock it with a mass relay and channel it's energy into a blast that would, at the least, force the reapers to break formation. Also, it would be lethal in close range, meaning it could also serve as a defensible position where carriers or other support ships could operate safely (or dreadnaughts if we can get the positioning right).

No, I understand that you want to deny them the Relay network. I just can't figure out what that does in the end.

They have FTL drives. They don't need the Relays to move about the galaxy. Even if it takes them a decade, they can still track you down. They don't care about time or resources.

No, you don't seem to get it.

What are the reapers advantages against our forces?

1) Superior techology.
2) Superior numbers.

We can destroy reaper ships, we just can't destroy enough without suffering casualties that'd, in the end, make the entire fight pointless.

Let me illustrate this:

Suppose you send out four alliance dreadnaughts against four reaper dreadnaughts. Theory says that you'll destroy one reaper and lose all your dreadnaughts.

Now...

Suppose you send four alliance dreadnaughts against one reaper dreadnaught. Theory says you'll destroy one reaper and lose one or no ships.

Extrapolate the numbers both for and against us and you'll soon realize that the fight against the reapers can be won, without substantial loses, as long as we engage in superior numbers. The problem is that engaging such an overwhelming force with superior numbers is nigh-impossible. It could work for a bit but then the reapers would just gather in even bigger clusters and the plan would fail.

Now...

A considerable amount of reaper vessels are stationed on or near Earth. Even the entire victory fleet doesn't stand a good chance at straight fight with them. But if we cut them off (by putting my plan in action) we may possibly acquire numerical superiority in other systems. Denying the Reapers attacking Palaven (for example) reinforcements would mean that we could focus our entire fleet there (as was the plan with Earth, but with significant less opposition) and effectively liberate the planet.

You worry about the bulk of the enemy fleet catching up with us, but imagine what we could do with even a few months of freedom? Not to mention years. In any case, knowing the direction they'd have to take to rejoin the relay network, we could plant traps, or even blow a mass relay if the system is expendable. This would not only damage/destroy any nearby vessels, but also mean it would take the reapers even longer to reach our forces.

All the time we'll buy with this tactic could allow the scientist to finally uncover the secrets of the relay network. Effectively denying the reapers access to the relays would not only give us time to prepare our counter-attack but also mean they'd take far longer to harvest the entire galaxy should we fail, allowing for more contigency plans like the "ark" colonies to be put into effect and thus increasing their chances of success.

Who says this?

*** Codex entries, or at least that's how I interpreted them... though I'm pretty sure I was literal when quoting ***

Pretty much my point. If you somehow take the Relays away from them, they simply FTL to their next objective. They don't really care how long it takes for them to get anywhere, and the Citadel races aren't going to be able to rebuild their entire civilization and produce a sizeable fleet to oppose the Reapers in the few years it would take the Reapers to reach them at the galactic rim.

At the risk of repeating myself... fractioning their fleet would be a huge advantage. A tactic that can be repeated with help of the Citadel if need be.

We can't defeat them conventionally. The Citadel races simply don't have the firepower to eliminate the Reapers. I suppose you could play cat and mouse with the Reapers for a while if we could selectively activate Relays and stay ahead of the Reapers, but eventually a mobile fleet would run out of resources and the Reapers won't. Fleets need He3, repairs, and mimicing the Quarians would be impossible without an already-existing galactic economy to barter and scavenge off of.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself. We CAN defeat them conventionally, if we lower their numbers. Assets can be assigned to securing fuel supplies and the such, after all, we have been able to keep our fleets functional until now. If we actually turn the tide of the battle, this situation can only improve. Also, Reapers attacking ground forces in planets are comitted resources not bound to rejoin their fleets in order to combat in space, otherwise, progress on the surface would be lost.

I get that you want to steal the Citadel and use it, but given that we can't defeat the Reaper fleet now, I'm not seeing what delaying confrontation for a few decades (at most) would do. There's not enough time to build or develop anything.

A few decades? How long did it take us to develop Thanix cannons? Or for the Quarians to implement stealth technology? Or the salarians for the matter? With the Krogan birth-rate, a few decades could be millions of new soldiers. A few decades, comrade admiral, could be all we need to finally put an end to Reaper threat.

[Deathcall]

@linkblade0

I would point out that 'firing range' has literally no limit in the vacuum of space.  If you fire a shot in space, It will keep moving until it hits something with enough mass to stop it.

Firing range may be endless, true, given the nature of space... targeting measures, however... are a different matter.

[Omega Torsk]

silentassassin264 wrote...

If the crucible is useless then we have no hope to win. With the Reapers in control of the Citadel, they can just turn off the Mass Relays for your team and outgun you (and take away any chance of retreat or backup). I would just call up Harbinger and tell him I am ready to replace Mr. Illusive.

Yeah, see... they could have done that... but they DIDN'T for some reason! They have the Citadel and judging by how easily they got it, they could've had it whenever they wanted! If the Reapers get the Citadel, it's game over, man. Because they can just shut off the Mass Relays, trapping everybody in their systems, picking them off one by one (Y'know, the way they've done it the last nth cycles).

But they didn't do this. They just sort of forgot about it. Oh, hi plot hole!

[Deathcall]

Omega Torsk wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

If the crucible is useless then we have no hope to win. With the Reapers in control of the Citadel, they can just turn off the Mass Relays for your team and outgun you (and take away any chance of retreat or backup). I would just call up Harbinger and tell him I am ready to replace Mr. Illusive.

Yeah, see... they could have done that... but they DIDN'T for some reason! They have the Citadel and judging by how easily they got it, they could've had it whenever they wanted! If the Reapers get the Citadel, it's game over, man. Because they can just shut off the Mass Relays, trapping everybody in their systems, picking them off one by one (Y'know, the way they've done it the last nth cycles).

But they didn't do this. They just sort of forgot about it. Oh, hi plot hole!

Possibilities branching from this:

a) The reapers wanted the victory fleet to arrive at earth so they could crush their major opposition and then breeze through the rest of cycle.
The reapers managed to move the Citadel but are still encountering opposition inside from C-Sec and a very well prepared populace (and pissed Aria T'loak).
c) The reapers haven't been able to override the Prothean modifications... yet.
d) The reapers forgot (you know, they ARE kinda old...)

[Daniel_N7]

Deathcall wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

If the crucible is useless then we have no hope to win. With the Reapers in control of the Citadel, they can just turn off the Mass Relays for your team and outgun you (and take away any chance of retreat or backup). I would just call up Harbinger and tell him I am ready to replace Mr. Illusive.

Yeah, see... they could have done that... but they DIDN'T for some reason! They have the Citadel and judging by how easily they got it, they could've had it whenever they wanted! If the Reapers get the Citadel, it's game over, man. Because they can just shut off the Mass Relays, trapping everybody in their systems, picking them off one by one (Y'know, the way they've done it the last nth cycles).

But they didn't do this. They just sort of forgot about it. Oh, hi plot hole!

Possibilities branching from this:

a) The reapers wanted the victory fleet to arrive at earth so they could crush their major opposition and then breeze through the rest of cycle.
The reapers managed to move the Citadel but are still encountering opposition inside from C-Sec and a very well prepared populace (and pissed Aria T'loak).
c) The reapers haven't been able to override the Prothean modifications... yet.
d) The reapers forgot (you know, they ARE kinda old...)

I choose !!! Holy **** you just gave me a vision! Aria leading her mercenary crew, teaming with Bailey, fighting reaper forces inside the Citadel... They're the ultimate resistance man!
Shepard is passed out after the starchild's attempt for mind control. And Aria goes for the rescue, saves Shepard, brings him back, and the freakin'fight continues... Insert "suicide mission" theme here!

[Scimal]

Deathcall wrote...


No, you don't seem to get it.

I get it, I just don't like it as a strategy.

It doesn't have fallbacks or anticipate enemy reactions.

It relies on hope and unproven technological progress.

We somehow get aboard the Citadel, somehow get it to a Relay, and somehow shut down the Relay network using the Citadel.

Then we use the control of the Citadel to give our forces an advantage by outmaneuvering the bulk of the Reaper fleet and pick off Reapers on other worlds.

Then we wait for the Reapers to arrive, hoping that given a whole year is long enough to develop technology and construct ships (with only the Geth that have remaining infrastructure) to battle the main Reaper force.

You just have a different idea of what to expect from a few years' worth of delay.

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

I get it, I just don't like it as a strategy.

Point me to a better plan. (seriously)

It doesn't have fallbacks or anticipate enemy reactions.

If we were to succeed on hijacking the citadel, you'd get more time to work on ark colonies and other fallback plans.

If we weren't, you won't have commited more than some strike teams and a few stealth ships that have a good chance of making it back to the main fleet unscathed.

Of course I anticipate the reapers will try to stop us. But what can they do? They may have the upper-hand in space, but inside the Citadel is a whole different story. Their ground forces aren't truly that fearful, and without proper air support, we stand a more than even chance of accomplishing our objective.

They can't possibly destroy the citadel themselves.

They can't destroy the mass relay to prevent us from escaping (we might not even need it anyway).

If they realize what we attempt, they may try to flee the system, but then again, they wouldn't give up the Citadel that easy, or let Earth have a chance to recover.

It relies on hope and unproven technological progress.

I say it relies on facts and proper deductions. As explained in previous conversations.

We somehow get aboard the Citadel,

Load stealth-ships with strike teams and land them on the Citadel's surface. There must be some sort of entrance we can use. If there isn't, we blow one open. We have had millenia to study the citadel, someone must have accurate schematics out there.

somehow get it to a Relay,

The Citadel MUST be able to move by itself, and at a considerable speed. It's the only logical explanation to how the reapers got it to Earth so quickly and without us noticing. I have already explained this. If you don't agree, then propose another alternative as to how this could have happened.

*** Space magic doesn't count, two can play that game. ***

and somehow shut down the Relay network using the Citadel.

Initially, it would be a matter of jumping the Charon Relay and stranding the main reaper fleet (I do believe it's their main), then we'd have bought ourselves enough breathing time to put the scientist at work and employ any other plans available to us to turn the tide of this war.

Then we use the control of the Citadel to give our forces an advantage by outmaneuvering the bulk of the Reaper fleet and pick off Reapers on other worlds.

Precisely.

Then we wait for the Reapers to arrive, hoping that given a whole year is long enough to develop technology and construct ships (with only the Geth that have remaining infrastructure) to battle the main Reaper force.

As long as we have a relay able to jump other relays (The Citadel), we can play the hiding game as long as we want. Also, don't forget that knowing where the reapers will arrive (presumably the closest next link into the relay network) we can prepare accordingly.

You just have a different idea of what to expect from a few years' worth of delay.

It'd be more time. But yes, I'm sure that even a couple months without the pressure of the main reaper fleet can give us an advantage on this war. One we cannot allow ourselves to missuse.

In any case, you still don't seem to get it.

If we don't take the Citadel and the Reapers finally shut down the relay network... All is lost. Don't you see it? Would you rather hide in rabbit holes and wait out the storm while the galaxy burns and dies arround you?

Take the Citadel.

Then we can argue what we do with it.

Modifié par Deathcall, 28 mai 2012 - 12:39 .

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

Point me to a better plan. (seriously)[/quote]

No. You are set in your plan. You have your opinion. Whatever I present wouldn't meet your standards because you think you've found the best plan.

I will say that the ONLY thing that has thus far worked against the Reapers even the tiniest bit are ark-colonies.

[quote]
If we were to succeed on hijacking the citadel, you'd get more time to work on ark colonies and other fallback plans.

If we weren't, you won't have commited more than some strike teams and a few stealth ships that have a good chance of making it back to the main fleet unscathed.[/quote]

And if you don't, your plan crumbles and all goes to nothing. I'm still curious as how you plan to move the Citadel to a Relay, much less board it while it's closed. Sure, you can try to blow a hole in it, but the minute you start a dozen Reapers are going to be on your position. Not to mention there isn't a guarantee tunneling through the wall won't hit some critical system.

[quote]Of course I anticipate the reapers will try to stop us. But what can they do? They may have the upper-hand in space, but inside the Citadel is a whole different story. Their ground forces aren't truly that fearful, and without proper air support, we stand a more than even chance of accomplishing our objective.[/quote]

How are you calculating this? No information, at all, is given about what's happening inside the Citadel. For all we know, it was completely taken over and a hundred Brutes are sitting on the Presidium.

[quote]
They can't possibly destroy the citadel themselves.[/quote]

Sure they can, they just don't want to.

[quote]
They can't destroy the mass relay to prevent us from escaping (we might not even need it anyway).[/quote]

Why do you say this? We destroyed one, they surely can.

[quote]
If they realize what we attempt, they may try to flee the system, but then again, they wouldn't give up the Citadel that easy, or let Earth have a chance to recover.[/quote]

Why would they flee? Earth is pretty much decimated. A handful of Reapers is more than capable of taking what's left. There won't be any significant recovery for years if the Reapers ever left.

There's no reason the bulk of the Reaper fleet has to stay around Earth, or watch helplessly as the Citadel slowly moves towards the Charon Relay.

[quote]
I say it relies on facts and proper deductions. As explained in previous conversations.[/quote]

Don't insult yourself like this. Here are a few questions I've had about your plan that simply don't have facts in the game world lore:

1) Can the Reapers control the Relays?
2) Can the Victory Fleet penetrate the Citadel's shell?
3) Can the Citadel jump itself?
4) Can the Citadel move itself?
5) Can the Victory Fleet researchers realistically control the Relays in the incredibly short amount of time presented to them?
6) Why wouldn't the Reapers break off their attack on Earth to defend the Citadel if it was being towed away?
7) How would you tow it away in the first place, if it can't move?
8) With fleet construction and fuel infrastructures decimated throughout most systems, how will the fleet continue to evade the Reapers over the next year?

You haven't presented a single in-game quote, a single wiki-entry, or single codex entry to backup whatever you're saying. I'm not going to believe that you're using "facts" until you reference specific points in the game or on a wiki somewhere.

[quote]
Load stealth-ships with strike teams and land them on the Citadel's surface. There must be some sort of entrance we can use. If there isn't, we blow one open. We have had millenia to study the citadel, someone must have accurate schematics out there.[/quote]

We don't, though. This is specifically mentioned in the codex that we don't know the entire layout of the Citadel. We don't know where the Keepers come from, where dead ones go, or where all the waste created by the Citadel inhabitants goes. We didn't even know that the statue of a Relay inside the Presidium Commons was an actual Relay until just a few years previous game-time.

[quote]
The Citadel MUST be able to move by itself, and at a considerable speed. It's the only logical explanation to how the reapers got it to Earth so quickly and without us noticing. I have already explained this. If you don't agree, then propose another alternative as to how this could have happened.[/quote]

The Reapers pushed/pulled it. It wasn't that far from its home Relay, and I doubt it'd take more than a handful of the largest Reapers - who can totally grab onto the Citadel like giant hands - to accelerate it. Sort of like how we strapped giant rockets onto an asteroid.

There's never been any indication that the Citadel can move itself. It doesn't have any visible engines, and no explored section reveals any similar function. There is precedent for simply pushing something towards a Relay, though.

[quote]
Initially, it would be a matter of jumping the Charon Relay and stranding the main reaper fleet (I do believe it's their main), then we'd have bought ourselves enough breathing time to put the scientist at work and employ any other plans available to us to turn the tide of this war.[/quote]

Sounds like you're straight-up destroying the Charon Relay after going through it to insure against Reapers following after. I can imagine that, though it does destroy the Sol system (not the Reapers, they can FTL out).

[quote]

As long as we have a relay able to jump other relays (The Citadel), we can play the hiding game as long as we want. Also, don't forget that knowing where the reapers will arrive (presumably the closest next link into the relay network) we can prepare accordingly.[/quote]

You can't hide indefinitely. There's nothing stopping the Reapers from using FTL drives and destroying Relays (which they can later rebuild just fine), effectively narrowing your escape routes until they know exactly which routes you can take.

[quote]

In any case, you still don't seem to get it.

If we don't take the Citadel and the Reapers finally shut down the relay network... All is lost. Don't you see it? Would you rather hide in rabbit holes and wait out the storm while the galaxy burns and dies arround you?[/quote]

Yes. Definitely. It's the only plan which has semi-worked from previous cycles.

Your plan gives you a few years, at best, to create some sort of new tech or enough overwhelming forces from scant resources to defeat the Reapers.

The ark-colony plan gives over 40,000 years to develop enough new tech and forces.

I'll take the one that doesn't rely on massive technological breakthroughs under duress.

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

[quote]
No. You are set in your plan. You have your opinion. Whatever I present wouldn't meet your standards because you think you've found the best plan.[/quote]

I don't think I found the best plan. I think I found a good plan that might work. I'm more than willing to listen to other ideas. Of course I'll try to throw my input on them as well.

[quote]
I will say that the ONLY thing that has thus far worked against the Reapers even the tiniest bit are ark-colonies.[/quote]

One surviving Prothean in the entire galaxy (that we know off at least). That doesn't even count like a "tiny bit" to me. It didn't work for them, and it has clearly not worked for any cycle before us (even if they survived for 50.000 years, they still lost to the reapers, evidently).

The only thing that the Protheans could manage that has actually helped us was modifying the keepers so they don't activate the Citadel Relay and drop the entire Reaper fleet on top of us.

Where do you even get that we have the kind of technology to pull an Ark colony anyway? The protheans were way more advanced. Our colonies aren't advanced or organized enough to construct them. If we let the Reapers keep the citadel, they'll shut down the relay network and prevent us from constructing on systems they are unlikely to search. Not to mention procure the neccesary materials and the population.

Also...

If you want to go through with this plan, it'll have to be you the one who tells Urdnot Wrex that we are going to quit fighting and go hide inside a cave.

You haven't forgotten that, have you? The protheans could pull an ark idea off because they were both cut-off and a homogenous people. How do you intend to convince the Turians, just to name another race, to let most of their bretheren die and flee? Hell, I doubt even humanity will back you up. Everyone will want to fight. The Protheans decided to hide after centuries of resistance, we have been in this war for less than a year.

Also...

What makes you think that after you wake up (if you wake up) some other race won't hold the galaxy. We had a hard time convincing our own people that the Reapers existed, and who says they will even want to listen to you. My memories from the Yagh aren't particularly... diplomatic, if you catch my drift. Without resources and with a small population, you'll be vulnerable to attack or enslavery...

Also...

Remember Sovereign? He wasn't there just for show, you know. If you plan to sleep for only a thousand years so you have lots and lots of time to recover, I'd like to remind you that the reapers DO leave behind some of their own... most likely to prevent races from doing what you propose. Hope you manage to hide a couple dreadnaughts away so you can fight... oh wait, you can't, they'd be able to detect them. And who's gonna let you hide away a dreadnaught in the middle of a war anyway? Well, actually, you'd need at least four, so the chances are pretty slim.

How's that for some input on other ideas?

[quote]
And if you don't, your plan crumbles and all goes to nothing. I'm still curious as how you plan to move the Citadel to a Relay, much less board it while it's closed. Sure, you can try to blow a hole in it, but the minute you start a dozen Reapers are going to be on your position. Not to mention there isn't a guarantee tunneling through the wall won't hit some critical system.[/quote]

All goes to nothing? I'm only asking you to commit a few hundred men and some ships which will most likely return unharmed back to the fleet! I bet I'd have more men than we can transport if I just mentioned the idea to soldiers who had relatives on the citadel... Or maybe I'll just land a troop carrier on Tuchanka.

[quote]
How are you calculating this? No information, at all, is given about what's happening inside the Citadel. For all we know, it was completely taken over and a hundred Brutes are sitting on the Presidium.[/quote]

I'm counting on the 13.2 million people inside (pre-invasion and not counting keepers). I'm counting on hundred of thousands of refugees. I'm counting on every spectre, C-SEC officer and mercenary. I'm counting on every goddamn man and woman in that station that can or could hold a weapon.

How many troops could they have landed? I laugh at a hundred brutes.

[quote]
Sure they can, they just don't want to.[/quote]

The citadel is built from the same material than the relays. It'd be incredibly hard to destroy. But this is not the point.

They don't want to, true.

They don't want to because it's the Citadel that controls the relay network, and they need it. Should they actually destroy it, they'll shut EVERYONE out of the relays. Which would work in our advantage, but being a huge relay itself, blowing up the citadel could be potentially worse than blowing up a normal relay. This means that if they blow it up while its still in the Sol system, they won't only potentially destroy a huge portion of their fleet (if they can escape the blast-wave, that's another issue), but also strand themselves since it's likely the Charon relay would be affected too.

Similar reasons prevent them from destroying a relay.

[quote]
Why would they flee? Earth is pretty much decimated. A handful of Reapers is more than capable of taking what's left. There won't be any significant recovery for years if the Reapers ever left.[/quote]

They'd flee so as to not get stranded in the Sol system, or caught in a relay explosion.

[quote]
There's no reason the bulk of the Reaper fleet has to stay around Earth, or watch helplessly as the Citadel slowly moves towards the Charon Relay.[/quote]

There not much they can do. Attacking the Citadel directly is dangerous/pointless. The arms are closed so they can't get inside. If they open the arms, they risk stealth ships getting in. Even if they decided it was worth it, they'd just make our jobs easier.

If they decide to leave the system for whatever reason, we'll get an early call and either move to engage them on the other side of the charon relay or avoid conflict if needed.

[quote]
Don't insult yourself like this. Here are a few questions I've had about your plan that simply don't have facts in the game world lore:[/quote]

I sense a soul in search of answers...

[quote]
1) Can the Reapers control the Relays?[/quote]

Currently. No. It seems they can't. Something must be preventing them from doing it. My bet is on the only thing the protheans got right.

Are you willing to risk them gaining control and shutting us out of the network?

[quote]
2) Can the Victory Fleet penetrate the Citadel's shell?[/quote]

Probable. Even relays can be destroyed if they are impacted by large enough objects (Dr. Amanda Kenson). I rather  infiltrate without drawing too much attention though. Some sort of explosive charge, or several. By the time the  Reapers notice what's going on, the men will be safely "below decks".

Have you considered it's possible to just hack our inside through a hatch or something similar? There's an interesting theory that could help us here.

"At first, the Serpent Nebula was assumed to be made of microscopic construction debris. Prevailing theory holds the Protheans used molecular nanotechnology to manufacture the incredibly durable  materials used to make the Citadel.  But unlike other nebulae, the  Serpent does not dissipate over time. Therefore, it must be replenished constantly. The current popular theory is that the non-recyclable waste collected by the Citadel's keepers is somehow  rendered down to the atomic or molecular level, and ejected into the clouds."

Ejected... Sounds like structural weakness to me. And that's just ONE idea.

[quote]
3) Can the Citadel jump itself?[/quote]

Unknown.

Can a relay jump itself?

Unkown.

Can a relay jump another relay?

Yes. (Proven by the reapers themselves if the Citadel can't jump itself)

Could it be possible to dock the Charon Relay inside the Citadel and close the arms?

Possibly.

What would be the effect of plotting a jump to the Arcturus relay in those conditions?

Unknown.

[quote]
4) Can the Citadel move itself?[/quote]

Definetely. Some sort of thrusters must be available to make adjustments.The unknown is how fast it can move.

You have to realize that there must have been an efficient and quick way of propelling the citadel other than towing it  with reaper dreadnaughts. Otherwise, there is simply no way *** besides spacemagic *** for the reapers to have  moved it so quickly to Earth. They have to go through who knows how many relays, towing and aligning the citadel  every time before they plotted the jump (the whole 7.11 billion metric tons).

"Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a  ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers  from its intended drop point, in any direction from the relay."

Also, for the Serpent Nebula part of the trip, the codex warns:

"The thick nebula presents a navigation hazard. Beyond the relatively  clear areas around the Citadel, electrical  discharges are common. These  are not blocked by kinetic barriers, and can severely damage metal-framed starships. In addition, some dense knots of dust can overwhelm the repulsion of  kinetic barriers on smaller ships. If  such a vessel is moving fast  enough at the time, the effects are similar to being hit by a sandblaster."

One thing is moving a couple two kilometer dreadnaughts... another is moving a structure that's more than 40km long.

Also, I'm perhaps guessing here but... In order to tow the Citadel, wouldn't the reapers have to drop their barriers, leaving them open to attack? That'd be a serious disadvantage, specially while crossing Council Space.

[quote]
5) Can the Victory Fleet researchers realistically control the Relays in the incredibly short amount of time presented to them?[/quote]

Unknown. Aren't you willing to give it a shot at least? Even if it's not possible, we could deny the Reapers access to the network.

[quote]
6) Why wouldn't the Reapers break off their attack on Earth to defend the Citadel if it was being towed away?[/quote]

I never suggested we tow it away. The plan would have to change to simply disabling the Citadel's control over the relays if we can't get it to safety... Reapers ships can't join a ground battle unless they open the wards. Even if they do, the strike teams could move below the surface and deny their advantage. The only thing the reapers can do is send ground reinforcements, and I trust our men to cut through them and accomplish their objective.

[quote]
7) How would you tow it away in the first place, if it can't move?[/quote]

Again, I'm not suggesting we tow it away. It would be impossible with an entire reaper fleet on our back. However, It would actually be easier to tow the Charon Relay to the Citadel if we required it.

[quote]
8) With fleet construction and fuel infrastructures decimated throughout most systems, how will the fleet continue to evade the Reapers over the next year?[/quote]

If the plan succeeds, we'll pick our battles and engage accordingly. Shipyards and fuel provisions aren't totally destroyed. Otherwise, the fleet would already be inoperative. I'm not saying we haven't suffered severe losses. We managed to build the crucible with our infraestracture the way it is now, and we can always get refinery ships for fuel.

[quote]
You haven't presented a single in-game quote, a single wiki-entry, or single codex entry to backup whatever you're saying. I'm not going to believe that you're using "facts" until you reference specific points in the game or on a wiki somewhere.[/quote]

I'll need precise quotation here in order to respond accurately. But beyond some speculation and guesses, most of the info I gave for fact (turians turning the battle, asari fighting hit and run and making the reapers go defensive, etc) were taken straight out the codex.

[quote]
We don't, though. This is specifically mentioned in the codex that we don't know the entire layout of the Citadel. We don't know where the Keepers come from, where dead ones go, or where all the waste created by the Citadel inhabitants goes. We didn't even know that the statue of a Relay inside the Presidium Commons was an actual Relay until just a few years previous game-time.[/quote]

*** http://masseffect.wi...ctic_Government ; look under Citadel Foundations, that's where the waste goes. ***

There must be plans and schematics of all the areas we had effective access too. Detailed ones with hatches and tubes and vents and all those things. Maybe we don't know the inner workings of the Citadel, but I bet we know pretty well every entrance, exit and weakspot.

[quote]
The Reapers pushed/pulled it. It wasn't that far from its home Relay, and I doubt it'd take more than a handful of the largest Reapers - who can totally grab onto the Citadel like giant hands - to accelerate it. Sort of like how we strapped giant rockets onto an asteroid.[/quote]

Se above for implications on this premise.

[quote]
There's never been any indication that the Citadel can move itself. It doesn't have any visible engines, and no explored section reveals any similar function. There is precedent for simply pushing something towards a Relay, though.[/quote]

See above for implications.

[quote]
Sounds like you're straight-up destroying the Charon Relay after going through it to insure against Reapers following after. I can imagine that, though it does destroy the Sol system (not the Reapers, they can FTL out). [/quote]

I'm reluctant about sacrificing Earth. That's not the plan.

We don't know if the reapers can avoid a relay explosion. There are different ships to bear in mind, and those planetside are also at a disadvantage.

[quote]
You can't hide indefinitely.[/quote]

Right back at your Ark colony plan.

[quote]
There's nothing stopping the Reapers from using FTL drives and destroying Relays (which they can later rebuild just fine), effectively narrowing your escape routes until they know exactly which routes you can take.[/quote]

Destroying relays isn't as easy as it sounds. Their quantum shielding makes them nearly indestructible. However, "Dr. Amanda Kenson and her research team calculated that if a large enough mass impacts a relay with enough force, the relay should not be able to withstand it."

We still don't know if it's possible to flee from a relay explosion though. Also, even though it's very much possible that the reapers can build new relays (regardless of the time it may take them), reconnecting them to the network without the Citadel could be an issue.

Reapers traveling at FTL from Sol would be expected. Preparations could be made. Now, if reapers on other parts of the galaxy employ this tactic... it'd be problematic. However, since they need to harvest, we can safely assume they won't destroy systems with huge populations. Also, we should be able to spot a reaper towing an asteroid relatively easy.

Or we could move the relays: "They are "cold" objects that don't emit heat or radiation, unlike
starships, making them difficult to find if their position changes"

[quote]
Yes. Definitely. It's the only plan which has semi-worked from previous cycles.[/quote]

See above for implications and counter-arguements against this idea.

[quote]
Your plan gives you a few years, at best, to create some sort of new tech or enough overwhelming forces from scant resources to defeat the Reapers.[/quote]

My plan gives us control of the Citadel, the mass relay network AND it fractions the Reaper fleet considerably at the cost of a couple hundred men and putting some ships at risk.

[quote]
The ark-colony plan gives over 40,000 years to develop enough new tech and forces. [/quote]

Again... see above for implications.

[quote]
I'll take the one that doesn't rely on massive technological breakthroughs under duress.[/quote]

Best time for technological breakthroughs. Go find an Earth WW2 codex and review all the advancements acomplished during that particular conflict.

Modifié par Deathcall, 28 mai 2012 - 08:14 .

[linkblade0]

@deathcall & scimal

Both plans are based heavily on speculation and more than a little hope and both of you are presenting good cases.

I would like to reiterate my previous strategy. Admiral Deathcall is correct in that the Citadel is absolutely vital for any hope of victory. As far as the consequences of destroying it are concerned we have no idea. We do know it is mobile. Gravity is created by rotating the Citadel. We also know that the races do have control of the Citadel's arms. Meaning is it quite possible that we are able to control the Citadel but again that is speculation.

On the flip side Admiral Scimal is correct in that Arc Colonies is a potentially sound strategy. It allows us to hide away non combatants who aren't performing vital tasks for the war effort as a 'just in case' measure.

Best time for technological breakthroughs. Go find an Earth WW2 codex and review all the advancements acomplished during that particular conflict.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In a national/species crisis humanity has always made enormous leaps in technology, Its safe to say most other sentient organic species are the same.

In 6 years of war, humanity created jet propulsion and discovered nuclear fusion/fission. That was done when we weren't threatened with extinction, Imagine what we could come up with if our entire species was on the line.

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

One surviving Prothean in the entire galaxy (that we know off at least). That doesn't even count like a "tiny bit" to me. It didn't work for them, and it has clearly not worked for any cycle before us (even if they survived for 50.000 years, they still lost to the reapers, evidently).[/quote]

Why doesn't it count for you?
Survivors of other cycles: 0
Survivors of the Prothean's cycle: 1

1 > 0

And if it wasn't for indoctrinated saboteurs, it would have been thousands to millions. No, it didn't work for them, but then again, no other previous cycle has completed the Crucible (that we know of, at least).

[quote]The only thing that the Protheans could manage that has actually helped us was modifying the keepers so they don't activate the Citadel Relay and drop the entire Reaper fleet on top of us.[/quote]

They also built the Conduit on Ilos, Vigil, and the Prothean A.I. on Thessia. Modifying the Keepers gave us extra time, but the others are important, too.

[quote]Where do you even get that we have the kind of technology to pull an Ark colony anyway? The protheans were way more advanced. Our colonies aren't advanced or organized enough to construct them. If we let the Reapers keep the citadel, they'll shut down the relay network and prevent us from constructing on systems they are unlikely to search. Not to mention procure the neccesary materials and the population.[/quote]

You dig a big hole with other big holes attached. You put in a butt-load of flourescent lights, plants, vents, and a few pieces of de-activated tech. You don't have to put everybody into stasis, you just can't use any tech or have any record of the operation.

What's it matter if the Relay network is shut down? You can put enough supplies and people on a frigate or capital ship to last several weeks, which is thousands of light-years' worth of travel. You just need to find a semi-habitable world you can burrow into and wait a thousand years.

[quote]If you want to go through with this plan, it'll have to be you the one who tells Urdnot Wrex that we are going to quit fighting and go hide inside a cave.[/quote]

Fine? I don't get it. Is this supposed to be intimidating? Wrex is reasonable. He may be pissed, but if it's a choice between total extinction and hiding in caves for a thousand years only to re-emerge, rebuild, and then wipe out the Reapers, I think he can be persuaded.

[quote]You haven't forgotten that, have you? The protheans could pull an ark idea off because they were both cut-off and a homogenous people. How do you intend to convince the Turians, just to name another race, to let most of their bretheren die and flee? Hell, I doubt even humanity will back you up. Everyone will want to fight. The Protheans decided to hide after centuries of resistance, we have been in this war for less than a year.[/quote]

Everyone didn't want to fight. Thousands of people went to Sanctuary. It wouldn't take that many from each species to be able to maintain a population.

If the Turians can't be convinced, they die. If the Krogans can't be convinced, they die.

I'm not about to get weepy-eyed over the extinction of an entire race just because they're too stubborn to send 2,000 of their civilians on the off-chance my plan works. The bid is for the destruction of the Reapers and the survival of the galaxy's organic life, present and future. If that means the Turians go extinct, so be it.

[quote]What makes you think that after you wake up (if you wake up) some other race won't hold the galaxy. We had a hard time convincing our own people that the Reapers existed, and who says they will even want to listen to you. My memories from the Yagh aren't particularly... diplomatic, if you catch my drift. Without resources and with a small population, you'll be vulnerable to attack or enslavery...[/quote]

Don't need to fall asleep in the first place. Sustainable underground colonies are well-within modern technology, and would definitely be within the reach of ME's time period. Even if everybody needed to enter stasis, for some reason, the time for the Reapers to wipe out everything else is going to be shorter than it was for the Protheans since we're not resisting as strongly.

Give the Reapers 1500 years, send out some stealth ships to confirm their departure, start to rebuild. New species aren't going to overtake the galaxy in 1500 years. Some might have discovered space flight (maybe), but they wouldn't be a threat.

[quote]Remember Sovereign? He wasn't there just for show, you know. If you plan to sleep for only a thousand years so you have lots and lots of time to recover, I'd like to remind you that the reapers DO leave behind some of their own... most likely to prevent races from doing what you propose. Hope you manage to hide a couple dreadnaughts away so you can fight... oh wait, you can't, they'd be able to detect them. And who's gonna let you hide away a dreadnaught in the middle of a war anyway? Well, actually, you'd need at least four, so the chances are pretty slim.[/quote]

That's where the stealth scouts come in. Every new system gets a thorough examination with passive scans and Prothean-VI assissted analysis. Every new ship built has similar stealth capabilities implemented. QEC's are untraceable and you can't "intercept" their communications. Just avoid the Citadel, since that's the bait of their trap.

[quote]How's that for some input on other ideas?[/quote]

Not bad.

[quote]
All goes to nothing? I'm only asking you to commit a few hundred men and some ships which will most likely return unharmed back to the fleet! I bet I'd have more men than we can transport if I just mentioned the idea to soldiers who had relatives on the citadel... Or maybe I'll just land a troop carrier on Tuchanka.[/quote]

How are you going to move the Citadel if it doesn't have engines, given there's absolutely no proof of engines in-game or otherwise?

[quote]
I'm counting on the 13.2 million people inside (pre-invasion and not counting keepers). I'm counting on hundred of thousands of refugees. I'm counting on every spectre, C-SEC officer and mercenary. I'm counting on every goddamn man and woman in that station that can or could hold a weapon.[/quote]

13.2 million with absolutely no major anti-ship defenses against one Reaper will still lose. They can't even tickle the darn thing, much less bring it down.

[quote]How many troops could they have landed? I laugh at a hundred brutes.[/quote]

Does it matter? The 13.2 million people inside will get turned into Husks, Brutes, Marauders, Banshees, etc. That's what the Reapers do.

[quote]
The citadel is built from the same material than the relays. It'd be incredibly hard to destroy. But this is not the point.

They don't want to, true.

They don't want to because it's the Citadel that controls the relay network, and they need it. Should they actually destroy it, they'll shut EVERYONE out of the relays. Which would work in our advantage...[/quote]

How? If they destroy the Charon Relay while you're towing the Citadel towards it, they FTL out (as I hope you would), and then Sol is destroyed so they don't have a primary target to worry about. Then the Victory Fleet is scattered, and easy prey, or in one giant ball that's slower than the Reapers - and easy prey.

[quote]...but being a huge relay itself, blowing up the citadel could be potentially worse than blowing up a normal relay. This means that if they blow it up while its still in the Sol system, they won't only potentially destroy a huge portion of their fleet (if they can escape the blast-wave, that's another issue), but also strand themselves since it's likely the Charon relay would be affected too.[/quote]

They can totally escape the blast-wave. The Normandy has already done it, and there's absolutely no reason - at all - to think the Reapers wouldn't.


[quote]
There not much they can do. Attacking the Citadel directly is dangerous/pointless.[/quote]

Why? Their target wouldn't be the Citadel, but the ships moving it. Plus, the Reapers haven't shown any qualms before about mounting an attack on the Citadel - see ME1.

[quote]The arms are closed so they can't get inside. If they open the arms, they risk stealth ships getting in. Even if they decided it was worth it, they'd just make our jobs easier.[/quote]

Right, but if you can't actually take the Citadel out of Sol, your stealth teams don't matter. They'll just be hunted down. It doesn't matter if your stealth teams somehow shut down the Relay network if the Citadel is still in Reaper hands.


[quote][quote]
1) Can the Reapers control the Relays?[/quote]

Currently. No. It seems they can't. Something must be preventing them from doing it. My bet is on the only thing the protheans got right.

Are you willing to risk them gaining control and shutting us out of the network?[/quote]

The ark-colonies don't depend on having control of the Citadel, so... sure. They can hog it all they want.

[quote[quote]
2) Can the Victory Fleet penetrate the Citadel's shell?[/quote]

Probable. Even relays can be destroyed if they are impacted by large enough objects (Dr. Amanda Kenson). I rather  infiltrate without drawing too much attention though. Some sort of explosive charge, or several.[/quote]

Explosions, especially of the power you'd need to penetrate the Citadel's shell, aren't stealthy.

[quote]By the time the  Reapers notice what's going on, the men will be safely "below decks".[/quote]

Cool, I don't have a problem with a stealth team on the Citadel. Your plan involves moving it around, though. I keep wondering how you're going to do that without being obliterated.

[quote]Have you considered it's possible to just hack our inside through a hatch or something similar? There's an interesting theory that could help us here.

"At first, the Serpent Nebula was assumed to be made of microscopic construction debris. Prevailing theory holds the Protheans used molecular nanotechnology to manufacture the incredibly durable  materials used to make the Citadel.  But unlike other nebulae, the  Serpent does not dissipate over time. Therefore, it must be replenished constantly. The current popular theory is that the non-recyclable waste collected by the Citadel's keepers is somehow  rendered down to the atomic or molecular level, and ejected into the clouds."

Ejected... Sounds like structural weakness to me. And that's just ONE idea.[/quote]

You're totally right. That would be a structural weakness... If the waste ducts had be larger than pores on the surface of your skin. Which they don't.

[quote]
Could it be possible to dock the Charon Relay inside the Citadel and close the arms?

Possibly.

What would be the effect of plotting a jump to the Arcturus relay in those conditions?

Unknown.[/quote]

Sure it's known. Explosions. The Citadel is surrounding the Relay if you can get one to fit, which means a chunk of the Citadel is going to be missing on the other end. The Relays act more like slingshots than teleporters.

[quote][quote]
4) Can the Citadel move itself?[/quote]

Definetely. Some sort of thrusters must be available to make adjustments.The unknown is how fast it can move.[/quote]

"Adjustments?" For what? Sitting in a nebula? Sitting in orbit? Why would you need adjustments in either place? Being in orbit is kind of the goal, since you very rarely need to expend fuel in order to maintain the altitude.

Why, some celestial bodies have been orbiting Earth for billions of years without so much as one thrust in any direction.

Your statement here is just plain speculation. There's absolutely no evidence that the Citadel can move itself, and if it can't move itself, then your plan defaults to getting the Victory Fleet to move it - and you don't seem very keen on the idea since you keep trying to push the unsupported idea that the Citadel has engines.

[quote]You have to realize that there must have been an efficient and quick way of propelling the citadel other than towing it  with reaper dreadnaughts. Otherwise, there is simply no way *** besides spacemagic *** for the reapers to have  moved it so quickly to Earth. They have to go through who knows how many relays, towing and aligning the citadel  every time before they plotted the jump (the whole 7.11 billion metric tons).[/quote]

So you're basically that the Citadel must have thrusters that have never, ever been mentioned, hinted at, or seen because you can't conceive of 12 Reapers latching themselves onto the Citadel's outer shell and using themselves as engines.

Totally space-magic.

Sheesh.

[quote]"Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a  ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers  from its intended drop point, in any direction from the relay." [/quote]

Omega Relay. Mass Effect 2. The Reapers can make ultra-accurate jumps, and there was nothing special about the Omega Relay.

[quote]

Also, I'm perhaps guessing here but... In order to tow the Citadel, wouldn't the reapers have to drop their barriers, leaving them open to attack? That'd be a serious disadvantage, specially while crossing Council Space.[/quote]

Sovereign didn't need to drop its barriers when it latched itself onto the Presidium.

So, I'd say your guess is incorrect.

[quote]

Unknown. Aren't you willing to give it a shot at least? Even if it's not possible, we could deny the Reapers access to the network.[/quote]

I'll give it as much a "shot" as you give the ark-colony's tech a "shot." I find it fairly comedic that at the beginning of your response you're criticizing how the ark-colony uses tech that hasn't been developed (even though it doesn't need it), but here you're asking me to agree it's possible for the very same technicians/researchers to perform a more difficult feat in a shorter amount of time.

Kudos.

[quote][quote]
6) Why wouldn't the Reapers break off their attack on Earth to defend the Citadel if it was being towed away?[/quote]

I never suggested we tow it away. The plan would have to change to simply disabling the Citadel's control over the relays if we can't get it to safety... Reapers ships can't join a ground battle unless they open the wards. Even if they do, the strike teams could move below the surface and deny their advantage. The only thing the reapers can do is send ground reinforcements, and I trust our men to cut through them and accomplish their objective.[/quote]

So you disable the Citadel's control over the Relays, leaving the Citadel behind for the Reapers to eventually repair?

I thought the whole point of your plan was to steal the Citadel, disable the Relays, and selectively re-enable Relays so you stay ahead of the Reapers. You can't do that if the Citadel is with the Reapers.

[quote][quote]
7) How would you tow it away in the first place, if it can't move?[/quote]

Again, I'm not suggesting we tow it away. It would be impossible with an entire reaper fleet on our back. However, It would actually be easier to tow the Charon Relay to the Citadel if we required it.[/quote]

It's gravitationally anchored to Pluto. That's kind of troublesome.

Then there's the majority of the Reaper fleet between the Charon Relay and the Citadel. Also troublesome.

[quote][quote]
8) With fleet construction and fuel infrastructures decimated throughout most systems, how will the fleet continue to evade the Reapers over the next year?[/quote]

 Shipyards and fuel provisions aren't totally destroyed. Otherwise, the fleet would already be inoperative.[/quote]

It almost is, especially the Asari dreadnoughts, which don't use conventional fuel. As the months continue, the Reapers will destroy more refueling stations, narrowing the routes the Victory Fleet could use to refuel (much less repair - and restock ammunition).

[quote]I'm not saying we haven't suffered severe losses. We managed to build the crucible with our infraestracture the way it is now, and we can always get refinery ships for fuel.[/quote]

Sure, but the infrastructure will continue to be destroyed as the war goes on. The Reapers destroyed what they did in very little time - a few weeks. Over another three months, I'd expect any repair or construction facilities to be practically nonexistent, along with raw material processing infrastructure.

[quote]
I'll need precise quotation here in order to respond accurately. But beyond some speculation and guesses, most of the info I gave for fact (turians turning the battle, asari fighting hit and run and making the reapers go defensive, etc) were taken straight out the codex.[/quote]

Like this bit?

"The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved
to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husk to
capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper
capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian
fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians
refuse to be intimidated."


or this bit:

"A swift and brutal slaughter of the asari ground forces followed. Resistance from trained biotics
barely slowly the attackers down. In the end, Thessia's minimal
military forces, combined with unpreparedness in the face of an
overwhelming enemy, resulted in the fall of the planet."


Sure, Palaven may be resisting, but they can't keep it up. The bulk of the Reaper fleet isn't even near Palaven. It's just a few capital ships.

Earth - Fallen
Thessia - Fallen
Khar'Shan - Fallen
Palaven - Embattled [no infrastructure left]
Tuchanka - Not a priority [no infrastructure]

All within a week or so. Give it another week, and Palaven would fall.

I think I said before that the only species that has refueling and construction/repair facilities after the invasion is the Geth, and that any resistence would be centered around them as a driving force.

[quote][quote]
We don't, though. This is specifically mentioned in the codex that we don't know the entire layout of the Citadel. We don't know where the Keepers come from, where dead ones go, or where all the waste created by the Citadel inhabitants goes. We didn't even know that the statue of a Relay inside the Presidium Commons was an actual Relay until just a few years previous game-time.[/quote]

*** http://masseffect.wi...ctic_Government ; look under Citadel Foundations, that's where the waste goes. ***

There must be plans and schematics of all the areas we had effective access too. Detailed ones with hatches and tubes and vents and all those things. Maybe we don't know the inner workings of the Citadel, but I bet we know pretty well every entrance, exit and weakspot.[/quote]

Knowing what something does and having the schematics are two different things. I know what my blender does and a vague idea of how it works, but I don't know how to repair it.

That's the level of knowledge you're talking about - being able to enter the Citadel, find a specific location in a massive structure with a specific function, and control it.

There's also this entry (emphasis mine):

" No matter how many keepers die due to old age, violence, or accident,
they maintain a constant number. No one has discovered the source of new
keepers, but some hypothesize they are genetic constructs: biological
androids created somewhere deep in the inaccessible core of the Citadel
itself."



[quote][quote]
The Reapers pushed/pulled it. It wasn't that far from its home Relay, and I doubt it'd take more than a handful of the largest Reapers - who can totally grab onto the Citadel like giant hands - to accelerate it. Sort of like how we strapped giant rockets onto an asteroid.[/quote]

Se above for implications on this premise.[/quote]

Which aren't really implications and more like non-issues. Even if the Citadel had engines, it would face the exact same "implications" you mention.

[quote][quote]
There's never been any indication that the Citadel can move itself. It doesn't have any visible engines, and no explored section reveals any similar function. There is precedent for simply pushing something towards a Relay, though.[/quote]

See above for implications.[/quote]

Which don't mean anything. You just don't have a counter-argument for this. Okay, moving on.

[quote][quote]
Sounds like you're straight-up destroying the Charon Relay after going through it to insure against Reapers following after. I can imagine that, though it does destroy the Sol system (not the Reapers, they can FTL out). [/quote]

I'm reluctant about sacrificing Earth. That's not the plan.

We don't know if the reapers can avoid a relay explosion. There are different ships to bear in mind, and those planetside are also at a disadvantage. [/quote]

We don't know if the Reapers can avoid a relay explosion?

Do they have FTL? Yes? Then they can avoid it. The ones planetside have hours to go to FTL if the Charon Relay explodes. Hours.  

[quote][quote]
You can't hide indefinitely.[/quote]

Right back at your Ark colony plan.[/quote]

Out of context, that's quite clever. Kudos.

Okay, you can't be on the move indefinitely. Either the Reapers will shutdown/destroy Relays, shutdown/destroy vital infrastructure, or straight catch-up with you using their much faster FTL drives.

Guerrilla tactics are only effective when the enemy doesn't have a very good understanding of the environment. The Reapers know the galaxy better than we do. They could just as easily pull guerrilla tactics on any mobile fleet.

[quote][quote]
There's nothing stopping the Reapers from using FTL drives and destroying Relays (which they can later rebuild just fine), effectively narrowing your escape routes until they know exactly which routes you can take.[/quote]

Destroying relays isn't as easy as it sounds. Their quantum shielding makes them nearly indestructible. However, "Dr. Amanda Kenson and her research team calculated that if a large enough mass impacts a relay with enough force, the relay should not be able to withstand it."[/quote]

Yup, and there's nothing stopping the Reapers from destroying the Relays.

[quote]We still don't know if it's possible to flee from a relay explosion though. Also, even though it's very much possible that the reapers can build new relays (regardless of the time it may take them), reconnecting them to the network without the Citadel could be an issue.[/quote]

The Normandy survived Arrival. It moves slower than most Reapers. It's totally possible. Relay explosions move slower than the speed of light (or at the speed of light, max). If you can go faster than light, you can outrun the Relay explosion. Relay explosions are not space-magic. They're regular ol' explosions with enormous amounts of energy behind them.

And once they have the Citadel back, it's not an issue.

[quote]Or we could move the relays: "They are "cold" objects that don't emit heat or radiation, unlike
starships, making them difficult to find if their position changes"[/quote]

They're also huge, so when they come within a distance, they will be spotted.

[quote][quote]
Yes. Definitely. It's the only plan which has semi-worked from previous cycles.[/quote]

See above for implications and counter-arguements against this idea.[/quote]

Your counter-argument was that it didn't work well enough when the Protheans tried it.

You say that when there's absolutely no evidence if any plan that involves confrontation or guerrilla warfare tactics working to any extent.

So instead of improving upon the proven, but inefficient plan, you want to undertake a plan that hasn't been proven to work at all. That's why I prefer the ark-colony idea.

[quote][quote]
Your plan gives you a few years, at best, to create some sort of new tech or enough overwhelming forces from scant resources to defeat the Reapers.[/quote]

My plan gives us control of the Citadel, the mass relay network AND it fractions the Reaper fleet considerably at the cost of a couple hundred men and putting some ships at risk.[/quote]

I've said it like 8 times before: The Reapers have FTL that can cross the galaxy in less than a year. What good does control of the Citadel and Relay network do you?

You say it fractures the Reaper fleet, but you openly admit that the bulk of the fleet (what's at Earth) can't be taken head-on. What's stopping the Reapers from using FTL to gather at Earth and then procedurely destroying or disabling Relays to effectively narrow which routes you can outrun them with?

[quote][quote]
The ark-colony plan gives over 40,000 years to develop enough new tech and forces. [/quote]

Again... see above for implications.[/quote]

So you don't have an answer for this, either. Okay.

[quote][quote]
I'll take the one that doesn't rely on massive technological breakthroughs under duress.[/quote]

Best time for technological breakthroughs. Go find an Earth WW2 codex and review all the advancements acomplished during that particular conflict.

[/quote][/quote]

Allied Forces inventions include Napalm, Flamethrowers, synthetic rubber, the Maginot Line, and Radar.

Germans invented jet fighters, jet bombers, helicopters, rockets, RPGs, smart bombs, advanced machine guns, and the atomic bomb.

Most of the German tech was invented prior to their invasion of Poland, by the way. The atomic bomb is an exception, since it was invented by German defectors who took most of their research with them from Germany and the United States government poured ridiculous amounts of funds into the program. Something the Germans, who were also developing the atomic bomb at the exact same time, didn't do.

So, yeah, looking at that list of accomplishments, we're real lucky that Hitler decided to betray Russia and fight a war on multiple fronts instead of listening to practically every military advisor he had that said attacking Russia was stupid and would cost them the war.

I may be wrong on this, but I'm thinking that there won't be Reaper defectors - nor are they led by someone crazy enough to fight a war on multiple fronts without the resources to do so.

[Deathcall]

Very well...

Lets get down to the details.

@ Scimal

Prothean Survival

The only prothean alive that we know of is Javik.

The Ark project on Ilos failed due to power shortages.

Survivors 12/50.000 *** overall number may not be precise ***

The dozen that survived managed to complete the Conduit and travel to the Citadel, effectively denying the Reapers the possility of using it to ambush the galaxy again. Sadly, these survivors died of starvation.

The Ark project on Eden Prime failed due to sabotage and infiltration by indoctrinated agents.

Survivors 1/1.000.000

The only survivor joined with Commander Shepard and is now helping fight the reapers. Sadly, being the only Prothean left in the galaxy (that we know off), his race is still bound to extinction.

Other Ark projects haven't been found. Due to the passing of time, we can assume that either they have been rendered non-functional by power shortages like the one in Ilos, or destroyed by the Reapers.

It is possible, however, that there are more out there. *** to be fair ***

Prothean ruins and abandoned technology (VIs, Data Caches) have been useful in providing background information on their race as well as warning us about the Reapers. However, this information was squandered by the current cycle when they refused to acknowledge the threat.

Even though technological advancements were made possible by some of the Data Caches (like the Mars Archives), allowing several races to develop mass effect technology, they also functioned as "enablers" that directed and limited our breakthroughs to the path the Reapers intended all along. This could explain why some facilities were left alone, as they would help further their plan.

Overall, the current cycle has gained few advantages from the Prothean era, they remain more an archeological curiosity than an effective help against the Reapers. Granted, it was their Beacon on Eden Prime that initiated the course of events that led to the discovery of the Reapers, but that, as I said, was a wasted gift.

If it hadn't been for the Commander's perseverance, Sovereign would have accomplished its objective and we would have suffered the same fate as them. Still, even with Shepards help, we merely managed to delay our enemy ever so briefly.

So, have the Protheans survived into this cycle? Well, one has. Once again, thanks to the good Commander.

Even if we were to take the Turian belief and say "If when the fight ends, only one of us is still alive, it was worth it", *** not a precise quote, I know ***, the fight hasn't ended, and the survival of a single Prothean has accomplished little in ways of helping us win this war.

So no. I will argue that the Prothean's plan failed. That their survivavility into our cycle is mere chance, and that the help of a single prothean (despite my deepest appreciation and thanks for his choice to join our fight) is irrelevant.

*** So irrelevant that it was DLC ***

The Protheans are effectively extinct. If not right now, they will be in a couple decades.

Ark Projects of our own

It is, by all means, possible to enact Ark projects of our own.

The problems lie both with the dreadful precedent presented by the Protheans (and all races before them, who have clearly failed), technology and logistics.

Lets disregard the precedent for now and work on technology and logistics.

On the one hand, even though we don't have the stasis chamber technology used by the Protheans, I am sure we can employ alternatives. On the other, building, supplying and manning this facilities would be an Odissey in the current state of the Galaxy.

For this plan to work, it would have to be done in secrecy to avoid the risk of indoctrinated agents sabotating it. Procuring the necessary resources would be difficult on this condition.

Finding a suitable planet to settle would also be difficult. As you can see, the Prothean Ark Projects were done in developed planets which had access to the required materials.

You may want load a ship and travel until you find a suitable location, but remember that exploration is dangerous and limited by the ship's ability to discharge it's core *** Not every system has planets suitable for this *** and refuel. Even then, you'd have to search for planets that can be utilized, since locations that need special housing, have dangerous indigenous lifeforms, need terraforming, don't provide means to restock on vital supplies (food, water, and others), etc., would hinder your attempts and possibly be unfit for long-term settlements.

It is also important to consider that the Reapers have a much more complete knowledge of the Galaxy, and that they are very thorough. Multiple Ark projects would be required for any real chance of success. This fact makes the possibility of being found out even before the projects set out very high.

Another problem is presented by the ethics of the entire project. The Protheans built theirs when they were on the verge of extinction. Their race had already been almost decimated. Our current cycle still has billions alive. Since we have to keep the projects both secret and somewhat minimalistic, it would mean that billions would be left behind to die at the hands of the reapers. Granted, as a fall back plan, it's still sound, but the moral implications are devastating.

In any case, lets suppose that you manage to "ride out the storm" and emerge from your Arks after a couple centuries or thousands of years. (Barring power failures, indoctrinated saboteurs, in-fighting, lack of sufficient supplies, being found by the Reapers, critical malfunctions of key systems, loss of VIP personnel, etc.)

Re-establishing civilization the way we know it won't be as easy as it may sound. First, you'd have to depend on the resources you took with you. This includes any construction materials you brough along, expert staff who can begin construction of much needed facilities (housing, farms, mines, shipyards, ships, weapons, ammunition, fuel stations, etc.) and your overall population (which, in all likeness, hasn't increased much). Consider that degradation through time could also severely hamper your attempts to re-use the ships you brought along.

Even if you do manage to get your civilization up and running again. Once you set out to space , there's the Reaper "Vanguard Forces" to keep in mind. If you meddle too much with the current cycle, you are bound to be found out sooner than later. Nothing prevents a few Reapers from coming back and destroying all your efforts. Even using stealth ships isn't a guaranteed safety meassure here since interaction with other races or resource gathering could expose you. Even using the relays themselves could be a hazzard.

We could theorize that by keeping development and expansion to the minimum, you could avoid detection. However, you are bound to run out of resources (compare with how Earth was near depletion before we set out to find new planets), thus preventing you from building a sizable fleet or even developing new technologies. The availability of element zero is also an issue since, even if you pretend to take new paths in your advancements, much if not all of our current modern tech depends on it (power sources being the main concern).

The fact that multiple projects will be functioning is also a liability. If even one is found out, this would put the Reapers on alert and probably motivate a galaxy wide search.

Barring all possible dangers and assuming the Ark Projects succeed in remaining undetected and supplied. There's no guarantee that our technology will be able to match the Reaper's. They have been around for billions of years and harvested thousands of civilizations (at least one more advanced than ours). Even if we were to gain technologies that could grant us an advantage, nothing prevents them from implementing it themselves and evening the playing field. Also, there's the fact of their overwhelming numbers to consider. Building fleets takes time and resources, and we wouldn't be able to build enough ships without being found out. Even if the ones we build can outmatch a Reaper dreadnaught, or ten, their raw numbers would still pose a considerable threat. Also, indoctrination would still be an issue, and if they manage to turn the next cycle's races on us, we could find ourselves impossibly outmatched once more.

The risks are too great and the outcome too uncertain. As a fall back plan, it could prolongue our species, as a way to defeat the Reapers...

Retaking the Citadel

Citadel "Mobility"

We simply do not know if the Citadel can move itself, I admit that.

I hear your arguement about the council races never mentioning a propulsion system other than the one used to initiate the station's rotational movement, but then again, we didn't even know the Citadel was a huge mass relay until a few years ago.

The fact is that the Citadel moved or was moved to Earth on the Sol system.

Was it towed?

The implications of one or several Reaper ships "hauling" the Citadel to the nearby Relay are disturbing.

First, it would require a sizeable Reaper fleet travelling through the Relay network and assaulting the Citadel.

Second, it would require the reapers landing troops on the Citadel and taking control of at least the system that opens and closes the wards. Although it's more likely that C-SEC themselves closed the wards when they noticed the reaper forces.

Third, the reapers would have had to move the Citadel to the Widow relay and jump it. From there, they would have had to repeat the process all the way to the Charon relay.

Fourth, all of the above would have had to be done in an incredible short time, since no warning or distress call was sent from any of the systems the Reapers would have had to go through to reach the Citadel and then tow it back to Earth.

If you are considering the idea of the Reapers towing while at FTL speed, I'll have to remember you that:

"The amount of element zero and power required for a drive
increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is
being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are
prohibitively expensive."

Also, while reaper ships don't normally need to discharge their drives (although static seems to affect them from our observations on their ships landing on planets), towing the Citadel along would most likely at least strain them, forcing some stops along the way.

Considering the sheer size of the Citadel and it's 7.11 billion metric tons, I'd say that moving it at FTL speeds (or at any high speed all together) is an impossible feat, even for the Reapers.

Did it jump itself?

The Citadel is a relay like no other. It's way bigger, and it doesn't seem bound to all the rules other relays are subject to. An example of this is how it can function without another relay to create a "mass-free" corridor. Unless the Reapers have one in dead space, which, in all fairness, is a possibility. *** although we don't see one in the final scenes of ME2, so I'll discard that line of thinking ***

Two alternatives are possible from the above statement.

The Citadel can create "mass-free" corridors on its own, or, the Citadel can pair with any relay in the network in order to create a corridor.

Still, the problem remains. Can the Citadel "jump" itself? Sadly, it remains unknown.

We can theorize though.

Given all the reasons against the "tow" theory, the uniqueness of the Citadel as a Mass Relay itself and the Reaper's knowledge of its inner workings. It is a more veritable assumption that it can, in fact, jump itself.

In all fairness, there's nothing "technically" (in the true sense of the word) wrong with this assumption. You just prefer the alternative, which is riddled by all the problems I have mentioned.

I am willing to take a leap of faith here and assume that this is how the Citadel was moved.

*** Here we hit a wall. You are set in your belief of the Reapers towing it, and I'm set on my belief of the unlikeness of such action. Your belief is riddled with logical as well as in-game knowledge uncertainties, mine is just an assumption which has nothing going against it and actually makes the plot sound better. Still, I'm afraid we will reach no accord until one of us gives up on his beliefs, and I'm certainely not going to... unless Bioware itself disproves me. Likewise, you are entitled to keep your own, but it will continue to hinder our arguement. ***

The Battle inside the Citadel

First, lets do a list of possible Citadel Defenders.

C-SEC: The numbers I have show that in 2185 there were at least 200.000 officers. Numbers have most likely increased due to the dire situation the galaxy is in, and decreased due to the Cerberus coup, though not in a significant amount I bet.

SPECTRE Operatives: Unknown numbers, alliance puts them on fewer than a hundred. Still, if even a dozen of them were on the Citadel when the Reapers hit, they'd prove to be formidable defenders.

Mercenaries: We know tha Aria T'loak was on the Citadel after having fled Omega. It may be guessing, but it is most likely she was still there when the Reapers hit. It is not unlikely that she had several, if not hundreds of her loyal mercenaries stationed in the Citadel. We know that at least the respective leaders for the Blue Suns, Blood Pack and Eclipse factions were also there. It would be a safe assumption to say that they also had a considerable amount of men with them.

Refugees / Off-duty soldiers: How many refugees came to the Citadel is unknown. But their numbers must be in the tens of thousands. Together with the off-duty soldiers and those on shore-leave or recovering from wounds, numbers increase considerably. Their effectiveness, of course, will vary, but they are there, and when you have to fight for your life, shooting a gun comes natural to you.

General Population: The Citadel has an approximate of 13.2 million residents. This number is most likely higher since it's pre-invasion. The vast majority of them are most likely not trained in combat or not fit for it, but if only a 3% is, that still means 396.000 more people able to fight back.

All of this together gives us an effective fighting strenght of at least half a million, and that's a pessimistic estimate.

You may object on the availability of supplies and weapons for all these men and women. I believe it would be a fair assumption that they aren't in short supply considering C-SEC's storage, supply depots from the different companies based in the Citadel, war supplies awaiting pick-up, personal weapons and other kinds of stockpiles.

Now you brought on the matter of "huskification". I'll have to remind you that not only does that take time, but also facilities not present in the Citadel that would have to be built.

Also, there's the matter of mobilizing a ground attack force big enough to threaten the Citadel's defenders. Given the natural advantage defenders have in their "home-ground", odds say that for every person able to fight back in the Citadel, the Reapers would have had to drop in at least two (this is also a very pessimistic estimate). Meaning that they would have had to transport at least a million troops. The quantity of ships for that is beyond me, but I'm not sure even the Reapers can do it, considering all the assets they have comitted to other locations in the Galaxy.

Also, consider that it is more likely that the wards were closed by the Citadel's defenders than by the Reapers. It would be only logical to do it if they knew they were going to be attacked. This clearly complicates things for the enemy ground forces. Closing the wards also negates the Reaper air support, at least from their bigger ships, depriving them of their main advantage in combat.

Still, the reapers managed to take control of the Citadel and somehow moved it to Earth. So they must have control over the station, a control that, by all means, must be contested, as I seriously doubt they have been able to deal with all the defenders in such a short time. This could be explained by their knowledge of the Citadel, most likely, they know of some room that we never heard about which allows control of the station.

Priority: Take back the Citadel

Regardless of how they got it to Earth. Holding the Citadel was the only real advantage we had against the Reapers compared to other cycles.

It allowed us free-access to the Relays, which might not be important for the Ark Project plan, but is vital for the war effort itself. It also functioned like a key location to gather forces, resupply, repair, and all kinds of war-related activities like training and medical aid. It still is the sit of galactic economy and the nexus between this cycle's races.

Losing it has been our biggest defeat yet.

Retaking it will be our biggest victory.

My plan remains mostly the same.

We get as many strike teams as our combat stealth-ships can carry and land them on the Citadel. They get inside and, if the fight is still going, join the defenders. Their main objective, however, will be regaining control of the station.

Gaining access to the Citadel with the wards closed may be an issue. But I am sure it can be worked around somehow. There must be an entrance somewhere, it can't possibly be impregnable. We use a hatch, hack a docking bay, cut our way through with lasers, use a krogan as a battering ram, I don't care, there must be a way.

Assuming the Citadel can be moved by other means other than towing it. We take it to the Charon Relay and jump Charon to Arcturus. Afterwards, we jump the Citadel itself and get it somewhere safe. We keep fighting the war by fractioning the Reaper forces in the way I have previously exposed and use every resource we had working on the Crucible to figure out how to control the relays. Yes, it might just only slow the Reapers down, it might not even be possible, but at least we will still have use of the relays.

If the Citadel can't be moved we'll have to completly destroy the systems which grant the Reapers control of the relays, at any cost neccesary. If it requires us to destroy the station, we'll do it.

Consequences

Retaking the Citadel and putting it to safety will allow us to maintain use of the relays, be a huge morale boost, and possible help us turn the tide on this war.

Losing the Citadel will grant the Reapers control of the relays, effectively cutting off our fleets and most likely dooming us to the same fate than the Protheans.

Launching this operation will cost us a couple hundred if not thousand men (a neglible amount to be honest), and it has the possibility of costing us some ships, though I firmly maintain that they are likely to escape the Sol system unharmed. Even if the operation fails, we won't be left in much of a worse state. We'll still have time and resources to launch other operations or put fall back plans into motion.

Not launching this operation means that we don't lose any men or ships. We just lose an imporant opportunity that could win us this war.

***

Some codex relevant information (not all helpful to my arguement):
http://masseffect.wi...acle_at_Palaven
http://masseffect.wi...Fall_of_Thessia
http://masseffect.wi...itadel#Defenses

Sorry it took so long to answer, had a busy day and the post required some heavy thinking.

***

[Deathcall]

@ linkblade0

I appreciate your input Admiral.

However, there's a vital difference between Admiral Scimal's idea and mine.

His suggest we run away and hide, forsaking the life of billions.

Mine suggest we stay and fight, making the Reapers pay dearly for each life they take.

Our plans are not exclusive though. Both can be carried over.

Which makes me confused about Admiral Scimal's motivations...

You don't think... he's indoctrinated?

*j/k*

[linkblade0]

Deathcall wrote...

@ linkblade0

I appreciate your input Admiral.

However, there's a vital difference between Admiral Scimal's idea and mine.

His suggest we run away and hide, forsaking the life of billions.

Mine suggest we stay and fight, making the Reapers pay dearly for each life they take.

Our plans are not exclusive though. Both can be carried over.

Which makes me confused about Admiral Scimal's motivations...

You don't think... he's indoctrinated?

*j/k*

Lol, maybe Admiral, maybe.  In regards to your last post I agree with it generally, there are a few wrenches I feel the need to throw in however.

It may be possible to counteract indoctrination (theory but at this point most of our ideas are just that so wth).  We know that it is possible to detect an indoctrinated presence (Thessia VI).  If we can utilize that technology it would be possible to discover an indoctrinated individual before they can cause any real harm.   We also know that it is possible to 'talk sense' into an indoctrinated individual.  Implying that indoctrination is a sort of... film, if you will, over the mind.  A proverbial devil on your shoulder.  Psycologically speaking it may be possible to defeat indoctrination provided they haven't recieved cybernetic implants to cement it. 

Before anyone argues that they weren't capable of using it on Eden Prime, It is more than likely a discovery made by the protheans on Thessia who were then unable to share it with the rest of their race. 

I believe we should requisition some non-combatants who aren't providing necessary functions for the war effort (i.e. food and resource gathering and ship construction) and have them settle a few 'arc colonies'  these colonies are a carefully guarded secret, all those who know are subjected to regular indoc tests. 
......

Meanwhile we focus on war efforts.  Your plans for the Citadel is very well thought out and I would like to add that the primary reason none of the races know how the Citadel runs is because they are content to let the Keepers run it and the council made it illegal to pry.  If we are unable to run it, it must be destroyed.  While Operation Citadel is taking place have the asari work on understanding and looking at possible ways to reconstruct/rebuild/simulate the mass relays.   That way in case we do have to destroy the Citadel, if it shuts down the relays we can have a new network set up across vital points of interest relatively quickly. 

If you have full war assets in game it shows that the fleet is doing mighty well for itself against the reapers.  Plus codex reports do support that the war effort is going better than what you hear among the refugees but keep in mind most of these people lost pretty much everything.  Kinda hard to not be pessimistic when that happens.  Have some of our scientists focus on developing an 'anti-reaper gun' and retrofit our ships with it and we will be doing some major damage. 

Perhaps even enough to make it not worth it to the reapers.  If the reapers have any sense of self-preservation then baring outright destruction we could possibly force them to retreat by not making victory worth it...  Does this solve the issues with the cycle?  No, but it gives us time.  Prescious time.   Time we can use to reseat ourselves into the galaxy and focus on preparing for the next attack. 

Our most important stategy at this point is consolidation.  We need to manage our resources to the best of our abilities and focus on the survival of the races.

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

Prothean Survival

Prothean ruins and abandoned technology (VIs, Data Caches) have been useful in providing background information on their race as well as warning us about the Reapers. However, this information was squandered by the current cycle when they refused to acknowledge the threat.

Even though technological advancements were made possible by some of the Data Caches (like the Mars Archives), allowing several races to develop mass effect technology, they also functioned as "enablers" that directed and limited our breakthroughs to the path the Reapers intended all along. This could explain why some facilities were left alone, as they would help further their plan.[/quote]

Technology, itself, functions as an enabler. Reapers harvest space-faring species, and they provide the Relays/Citadel to act as cheese. Even without Prothean tech, humanity would still have been harvested. We were still space-faring, and a potential threat if left alone.

[quote]Overall, the current cycle has gained few advantages from the Prothean era, they remain more an archeological curiosity than an effective help against the Reapers. Granted, it was their Beacon on Eden Prime that initiated the course of events that led to the discovery of the Reapers, but that, as I said, was a wasted gift.[/quote]

Claiming inefficacy because of the gift's receiver isn't a valid argument. The thought experiment to discount or affirm your hypothesis would be "What if the Protheans hadn't left behind anything?"

It would be catastrophic, and we wouldn't be able to take down a single Reaper - much less put up a resistence on Palaven or Earth. So, yes, I agree that the Council should have acknowledged the threat earlier and prepared better - and there's some evidence that occurred (the Thanix cannons are Turian stolen from Sovereign), but the blame sits with the Council - not the Protheans for trying.

[quote]So no. I will argue that the Prothean's plan failed. That their survivavility into our cycle is mere chance, and that the help of a single prothean (despite my deepest appreciation and thanks for his choice to join our fight) is irrelevant.[/quote]

Yes, their plan failed. Only 1 survived to fight the Reapers head-on. However, you can't discount the efforts made by them to speed up the next cycle so they'd be ready for the Reapers. That some in the Council chose not to heed the words of Shepard shows ignorance on their part, not lack of efficacy on part of the Protheans.

[quote]*** So irrelevant that it was DLC ***[/quote]

That has nothing to do with anything. I, personally, felt that Javik should have been included. Making something DLC like that is nothing but a money grab, and has no bearing on the Lore of the game.

[quote]The Protheans are effectively extinct. If not right now, they will be in a couple decades.[/quote]

Sure, but show me any other species who survived - even if only 13 of them - into the next cycle via confrontation with the Reapers.
[quote]
Ark Projects of our own

On the one hand, even though we don't have the stasis chamber technology used by the Protheans, I am sure we can employ alternatives. On the other, building, supplying and manning this facilities would be an Odissey in the current state of the Galaxy.[/quote]

Well, we can either analyze Javik's stasis chamber and reverse-engineer it (with his help or the Prothean VI's help), or we could simply make underground colonies.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Odyssey" unless you're referencing the Greek myth. I doubt it would be any more difficult to find the supplies for a few underground colonies than it would to maintain/repair the fleet on the move.

[quote]For this plan to work, it would have to be done in secrecy to avoid the risk of indoctrinated agents sabotating it. Procuring the necessary resources would be difficult on this condition.[/quote]

I agree. It won't be easy to keep the project under wraps, but given that the Prothean VI can detect indoctrinated beings, and it would only take a few ships with a few thousand personnel (not necessarily civilians, as military personnel can make babies like the rest) to establish a fairly decent colony without a whole lot of risk of genetic defects.

[quote]Finding a suitable planet to settle would also be difficult. As you can see, the Prothean Ark Projects were done in developed planets which had access to the required materials.[/quote]

I agree. While it wouldn't require a place like Eden Prime, the closer the better.

[quote]You may want load a ship and travel until you find a suitable location, but remember that exploration is dangerous and limited by the ship's ability to discharge it's core *** Not every system has planets suitable for this *** and refuel. Even then, you'd have to search for planets that can be utilized, since locations that need special housing, have dangerous indigenous lifeforms, need terraforming, don't provide means to restock on vital supplies (food, water, and others), etc., would hinder your attempts and possibly be unfit for long-term settlements.[/quote]

Most of those can be negated by going underground. No special housing, no worries about indigenous life forms on the surface, and no need to terraform. Just flourescent lights and a power source. Otherwise, yes, it wouldn't be easy to find a suitable planet unless we got lucky.

[quote]It is also important to consider that the Reapers have a much more complete knowledge of the Galaxy, and that they are very thorough. Multiple Ark projects would be required for any real chance of success. This fact makes the possibility of being found out even before the projects set out very high.[/quote]

They don't check individual planets. They use databases created by the species they're harvesting to track down colonies. That's precisely why Ilos escaped the Reapers' wrath - it wasn't listed anywhere, and it was a giant complex that you could easily detect from space.

You would require multiple ark projects to begin with, or one huge one with both D and L amino-acid foods. Strict secrecy would have to be undertaken, precautions for Indoctrinated people used, and the willingness to sacrifice people who know about it but won't partake in it.

I agree.

[quote]Another problem is presented by the ethics of the entire project. The Protheans built theirs when they were on the verge of extinction. Their race had already been almost decimated. Our current cycle still has billions alive. Since we have to keep the projects both secret and somewhat minimalistic, it would mean that billions would be left behind to die at the hands of the reapers. Granted, as a fall back plan, it's still sound, but the moral implications are devastating.[/quote]

So they are, but that doesn't mean it won't work. If it's the best shot at surviving, and ultimately defeating, the Reapers, then I'd say the billions (and trillions if you count previous cycles) of lives are worth it.

The Universe operates by certain laws, and none of those laws have an ethics/morals clause.

[quote]Re-establishing civilization the way we know it won't be as easy as it may sound. First, you'd have to depend on the resources you took with you. This includes any construction materials you brough along, expert staff who can begin construction of much needed facilities (housing, farms, mines, shipyards, ships, weapons, ammunition, fuel stations, etc.) and your overall population (which, in all likeness, hasn't increased much). Consider that degradation through time could also severely hamper your attempts to re-use the ships you brought along.[/quote]

Equipment that isn't used shouldn't degrade much. I wouldn't expect the population to increase until a safe harbor has been established. It'd be too risky. Once a suitable planet has been found (if it's not the one the arks are placed within), then resources can be spent towards expansion and reconstruction.

[quote]Even if you do manage to get your civilization up and running again. Once you set out to space , there's the Reaper "Vanguard Forces" to keep in mind. If you meddle too much with the current cycle, you are bound to be found out sooner than later. Nothing prevents a few Reapers from coming back and destroying all your efforts. Even using stealth ships isn't a guaranteed safety meassure here since interaction with other races or resource gathering could expose you. Even using the relays themselves could be a hazzard.[/quote]

Well, since I doubt the Reapers would make massive changes to the Relay network between cycles, we could take a good guess (or send a stealth ship to scout) the location of the Citadel. Since the Citadel is the epicenter of the Reaper's trap, it's probable that they monitor it the most. Sovereign was only woken up once the signal hadn't been sent, which also seems to imply that the observational forces left behind aren't actively scouting or taking close notice to what's occurring. If they were fully aware of everything that occurred throughout the Relays and the Citadel, they would have returned after the Protheans modifed the Keepers and fixed everything then. The Reaper left behind seems to be a contingency plan, not necessarily a forward scout.

[quote]We could theorize that by keeping development and expansion to the minimum, you could avoid detection. However, you are bound to run out of resources (compare with how Earth was near depletion before we set out to find new planets), thus preventing you from building a sizable fleet or even developing new technologies. The availability of element zero is also an issue since, even if you pretend to take new paths in your advancements, much if not all of our current modern tech depends on it (power sources being the main concern).[/quote]

Smart expansion is worth survival. Done right, the survivors would have over 40,000 years to rebuild and construct a fleet to take out the Reapers. If only one Dreadnought was built a year, the end product would be more than sufficient to wipe the Reaper sout.

Initially available resources would be a problem. However, given how much of the galaxy is as-yet unexplored, and I'm guessing the Prothean VI probably knows of planets we haven't discovered that would help, careful scouting should provide decent results. We couldn't wantonly go around noisily establishing ourselves, but I think as long as we avoided the Citadel and minimized our interactions with up-and-coming races, things would be fine.

[quote]The fact that multiple projects will be functioning is also a liability. If even one is found out, this would put the Reapers on alert and probably motivate a galaxy wide search.[/quote]

Unless some reference to the location of the other arks is found, doing a system-by-system search of the entire Galaxy would take millenia and isn't guaranteed to produce results. The first priority in the project, though, is making sure that locations and references are never made or immediately deleted.

[quote]Barring all possible dangers and assuming the Ark Projects succeed in remaining undetected and supplied. There's no guarantee that our technology will be able to match the Reaper's. They have been around for billions of years and harvested thousands of civilizations (at least one more advanced than ours). Even if we were to gain technologies that could grant us an advantage, nothing prevents them from implementing it themselves and evening the playing field. Also, there's the fact of their overwhelming numbers to consider. Building fleets takes time and resources, and we wouldn't be able to build enough ships without being found out. Even if the ones we build can outmatch a Reaper dreadnaught, or ten, their raw numbers would still pose a considerable threat. Also, indoctrination would still be an issue, and if they manage to turn the next cycle's races on us, we could find ourselves impossibly outmatched once more.[/quote]

Isn't your plan to defeat them with current technology via outmaneuvering them?

It seems a bit hypocritical of you to say that there's no guarantee that a few extra tens of thousands of years' worth of development would give us an edge in either tech or numbers (if not both) when your plan involves fighting them with fewer numbers and less advanced tech than is possible via the ark colonies.

Like I said, even if it's just one dreadnought a year building upon current tech, after 20,000 years it should be enough to defeat the Reapers. Even if the Reapers built a Sovereign-class ship every cycle since the birth of our galaxy, they'd have 26,400. Given that not every species is suitable to be harvested, they haven't been around for 13.2 Billion years, and that we see nowhere near that number (otherwise they'd just send a thousand Reapers to every world and the entire war would be over in a day) - I'm comfortable with our ability to develop sufficient technology and fleet numbers to take on the Reapers.

[quote]The risks are too great and the outcome too uncertain. As a fall back plan, it could prolongue our species, as a way to defeat the Reapers...[/quote]

The risks are great, but we know it works. The Protheans didn't achieve their ultimate goal, but they did survive into the next cycle. We just need to improve and learn from their mistakes.

No, it won't be easy, yes it will require patience - but it's worth the continuation of our species.

[quote]
Retaking the Citadel

Citadel "Mobility"

Was it towed?

The implications of one or several Reaper ships "hauling" the Citadel to the nearby Relay are disturbing.

First, it would require a sizeable Reaper fleet travelling through the Relay network and assaulting the Citadel.[/quote]

Well, a couple of Reapers. The Sword Fleet included the ships normally protecting the Citadel. Maybe two Reaper Dreadnoughts would be enough to actually invade the Citadel. To move it is something else, but probably not more than a dozen.

[quote]Third, the reapers would have had to move the Citadel to the Widow relay and jump it. From there, they would have had to repeat the process all the way to the Charon relay.[/quote]

The Charon Relay is only like 3-4 jumps away. Not too much trouble.

[quote]Fourth, all of the above would have had to be done in an incredible short time, since no warning or distress call was sent from any of the systems the Reapers would have had to go through to reach the Citadel and then tow it back to Earth.[/quote]

The Reapers target communications first. Most of the galaxy uses comm buoyies. While it's not impossible for the Reapers to attack the Citadel quickly, they wouldn't necessarily need to if they took out the buoyies first.

[quote]If you are considering the idea of the Reapers towing while at FTL speed, I'll have to remember you that:[/quote]

Nope, I'm not.

[quote]Also, while reaper ships don't normally need to discharge their drives (although static seems to affect them from our observations on their ships landing on planets), towing the Citadel along would most likely at least strain them, forcing some stops along the way.[/quote]

You don't know what strains them nor can prove their engines need rest. Moving on.

The lightning as they come through the atmospheres of planets could be a result of a giant atmospheric disturbance, not necessarily something to do with Reapers themselves (other than their size).

[quote]Considering the sheer size of the Citadel and it's 7.11 billion metric tons, I'd say that moving it at FTL speeds (or at any high speed all together) is an impossible feat, even for the Reapers.[/quote]

The Reapers just need to accelerate the Citadel. After that, it will keep moving on its own. This is space, after all.

[quote]
Did it jump itself?

The Citadel is a relay like no other. It's way bigger, and it doesn't seem bound to all the rules other relays are subject to. An example of this is how it can function without another relay to create a "mass-free" corridor. Unless the Reapers have one in dead space, which, in all fairness, is a possibility. *** although we don't see one in the final scenes of ME2, so I'll discard that line of thinking ***[/quote]

Why discard it? It's the most logical explanation. The Citadel, as you point out, is much bigger and potentially more powerful. It would make sense that it would have to be larger and more powerful in order to connect to its twin in dark space.

Just because you don't see one in ME2 - after the Reaper Fleet is already on the move towards the Alpha Relay, means nothing. You're discarding a perfectly reasonable explanation in favor of something that defies the known physics of the Relays.

[quote]The Citadel can create "mass-free" corridors on its own, or, the Citadel can pair with any relay in the network in order to create a corridor.

Still, the problem remains. Can the Citadel "jump" itself? Sadly, it remains unknown.

We can theorize though.

Given all the reasons against the "tow" theory, the uniqueness of the Citadel as a Mass Relay itself and the Reaper's knowledge of its inner workings. It is a more veritable assumption that it can, in fact, jump itself.[/quote]

You're arguing against Occam's Razor. The Burden of Proof is on you to show that the Citadel can jump itself or has any other unique properties other than those presented in-game. Making assumptions based on your distaste for other theories is not proof, it is conjecture.

Towing/pushing the Citadel does not defy the laws of Physics, it just requires enough Reapers to give the Citadel a few pushes in the right directions. A matter of power, not a matter of "how does the Citadel do something never seen or mentioned before as possible."

If the Citadel can create its own massless corridors, why don't the Reapers keep a similar version in dark space? They wouldn't even need the Citadel, and the entire plot of ME1 is nullified.

[quote]In all fairness, there's nothing "technically" (in the true sense of the word) wrong with this assumption. You just prefer the alternative, which is riddled by all the problems I have mentioned.[/quote]

They are not logical problems. They are problems that stand opposed to your assumptions.

The problems you have pointed out are:

Why didn't anyone on the Citadel or surrounding systems yell for help?
Can the Reapers actually move the Citadel?
Since I've never seen direct evidence of the relay in dark space, it must not be there.

The last one is faulty logic. Absence of direct evidence is not evidence of absence.

The second one is a simple physics problem. How much force would it take to accelerate the Citadel at a sufficient, and how many Reapers does it take to equal that force?

The first one seems to be your strongest argument, but in-game we don't hear the distress calls of a dozen worlds. We are directly contacted by ambassadors wandering around the Presidium, and even Trainor doesn't tell us "the Elcor are sending out a distress call."

The two sides boil down to: Can the Citadel do something never shown or hinted at before, and may not be possible given the ME universe's understand of physics... vs. Can the Reapers attack and overtake the Citadel quickly enough to cut off distress signals.

To me, they are not of equal uncertainty.

[quote]I am willing to take a leap of faith here and assume that this is how the Citadel was moved.[/quote]

A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable..

I agree, that is precisely what you are doing.

[quote]*** Here we hit a wall. You are set in your belief of the Reapers towing it, and I'm set on my belief of the unlikeness of such action. Your belief is riddled with logical as well as in-game knowledge uncertainties, mine is just an assumption which has nothing going against it and actually makes the plot sound better. Still, I'm afraid we will reach no accord until one of us gives up on his beliefs, and I'm certainely not going to... unless Bioware itself disproves me. Likewise, you are entitled to keep your own, but it will continue to hinder our arguement. ***[/quote]

I cannot provide proof/evidence to someone who does subscribe to the same rules of logic. Your bias for making "the plot sound better" is obfuscating your ability to see its flaws. You would propose that the Citadel is capable of an entirely unique ability that would have rendered ME1's plot redundant, and you support your assumptions with further assumptions. To me, that is not an argument - that is an unproven hypothesis, and is not worthy of actual debate.

[quote]
The Battle inside the Citadel

Now you brought on the matter of "huskification". I'll have to remind you that not only does that take time, but also facilities not present in the Citadel that would have to be built.[/quote]

It doesn't take that long. Maybe a few hours via the mobile "huskifiers" Sovereign used on Eden Prime in ME1. If the Reapers that attacked the Citadel already had a sizeable amount of husks in them, that would create the initial casualties of Citadel personnel that could be turned into husks.

[quote]Also, there's the matter of mobilizing a ground attack force big enough to threaten the Citadel's defenders. Given the natural advantage defenders have in their "home-ground", odds say that for every person able to fight back in the Citadel, the Reapers would have had to drop in at least two (this is also a very pessimistic estimate). Meaning that they would have had to transport at least a million troops. The quantity of ships for that is beyond me, but I'm not sure even the Reapers can do it, considering all the assets they have comitted to other locations in the Galaxy.[/quote]

I doubt it would take that many, since taking the Citadel would only require enough husks to start the initial round of casualties. Then it's merely a ratio game of how many husks the remaining survivors can hold off versus how many husks are being created. As the survivors dwindle, that ratio continues to favor the Reapers.

I also doubt your numbers since you don't have any basis for them, but I can't provide more accurate numbers for the exact same reason.

[quote]Also, consider that it is more likely that the wards were closed by the Citadel's defenders than by the Reapers. It would be only logical to do it if they knew they were going to be attacked. This clearly complicates things for the enemy ground forces. Closing the wards also negates the Reaper air support, at least from their bigger ships, depriving them of their main advantage in combat.[/quote]

I'm not sure the Reapers would bombard the Citadel in the first place. Reaper husks combined with Cerberus indoctrinated forces seems the most likely route of attack. We know that Reaper dreadnoughts can enter the Citadel before the arms close, so I guess the debate depends on whether or not the Citadel had advanced enough warning of Reaper movements.

[quote]Still, the reapers managed to take control of the Citadel and somehow moved it to Earth. So they must have control over the station, a control that, by all means, must be contested, as I seriously doubt they have been able to deal with all the defenders in such a short time. This could be explained by their knowledge of the Citadel, most likely, they know of some room that we never heard about which allows control of the station.[/quote]

I'd hypothesize that they attacked the Citadel the way they attacked every other colony. Massive initial casualties, and then the defenders consist of small pockets of resistence. It wasn't difficult for Sovereign to reach the Presidium control room before, so it could be accomplished again.

[quote]Priority: Take back the Citadel

Regardless of how they got it to Earth. Holding the Citadel was the only real advantage we had against the Reapers compared to other cycles.

It allowed us free-access to the Relays, which might not be important for the Ark Project plan, but is vital for the war effort itself. It also functioned like a key location to gather forces, resupply, repair, and all kinds of war-related activities like training and medical aid. It still is the sit of galactic economy and the nexus between this cycle's races.

Losing it has been our biggest defeat yet.

Retaking it will be our biggest victory.

My plan remains mostly the same.

We get as many strike teams as our combat stealth-ships can carry and land them on the Citadel. They get inside and, if the fight is still going, join the defenders. Their main objective, however, will be regaining control of the station.

Gaining access to the Citadel with the wards closed may be an issue. But I am sure it can be worked around somehow. There must be an entrance somewhere, it can't possibly be impregnable. We use a hatch, hack a docking bay, cut our way through with lasers, use a krogan as a battering ram, I don't care, there must be a way.[/quote]

Like you said, that's what you want to believe. I don't see the strategic value in the Citadel outside of towing it along to selectively shut down Relays and outmaneuver the Reapers for a while. I'm not positive the delay in confrontation would be worth the cost of acquisition, though.

[quote]Assuming the Citadel can be moved by other means other than towing it. We take it to the Charon Relay and jump Charon to Arcturus. Afterwards, we jump the Citadel itself and get it somewhere safe. We keep fighting the war by fractioning the Reaper forces in the way I have previously exposed and use every resource we had working on the Crucible to figure out how to control the relays. Yes, it might just only slow the Reapers down, it might not even be possible, but at least we will still have use of the relays.

If the Citadel can't be moved we'll have to completly destroy the systems which grant the Reapers control of the relays, at any cost neccesary. If it requires us to destroy the station, we'll do it.[/quote]

Why would destroying the Relays or the Citadel provide a strategic benefit to the fleet?

[quote]
Consequences

Retaking the Citadel and putting it to safety will allow us to maintain use of the relays, be a huge morale boost, and possible help us turn the tide on this war.[/quote]

How does it help turn the tide? I'm not sure how depriving the Reapers of Relays disables their ability to maneuver around the galaxy or respond by congregating together into a much stronger fleet.

[quote]Losing the Citadel will grant the Reapers control of the relays, effectively cutting off our fleets and most likely dooming us to the same fate than the Protheans.[/quote]

Probably.

[quote]Not launching this operation means that we don't lose any men or ships. We just lose an imporant opportunity that could win us this war.[/quote]

You've yet to delineate how you plan to fracture the Reaper fleet. I can see that, if you disable the Relays quickly enough, you could use the Sword fleet to catch a few Reapers in other system off-guard and destroy them. I don't think you've provided a solution to what happens if the Reapers then abandon smaller systems and mass their fleet to retrieve the Citadel or force a confrontation with the Sword fleet through either the destruction or disabling of Relays themselves.

[linkblade0]

No matter what our plan, continue fighting or flee and try and survive to the next cycle. We must destroy our dead. Space them so they are torn apart in the vacuum of space or cremate them. Its the best way to ensure the Reaper forces cant keep spreading.

[Deathcall]

*wrings hands*

You are quite a challenge Admiral.

@ Scimal

On Humans before and after MET (mass-effect technology)

Before we found the Prothean ruins on Mars (2148 CE), humans had only managed to settle a few cities in Luna and Mars itself. Finding the ruins jumped humanity's technology nearly two hundred years.

The discovery of the Prothean Ruins on Mars lead to the development of efficient space-faring technology as well as the finding of the Charon Relay (previously believed to be a satellite orbiting Pluto).

***
2148 CE is 136 years from our current date. The events of Mass Effect start in 2183, only 35 years after the discovery of the Prothean Ruins on Mars.

***

Less than half a century after developing MET, humanity has become an important member of galactic society and a vital part of the forces opposing the Reapers. All thanks to the ruins left behind by the Protheans.

Had we not found them and decripted its secrets, we would - most likely - still be struggling with exploring our own home system.

How this has helped us in our fight against the Reapers is clear. Still, the fact remains that making use of MET has led us right down the path they wanted. The Protheans themselves learned about MET from the Inusannon in an astonishingly similar manner.

It is hard to know because it happened so long ago, but it is most likely that the Inusannon learnt about MET the same way than most other races did: By discovering ruins belonging to civilizations from the past cycle.

We know that the Reapers dedicate hundreds of years to wiping out evidence of their existance and that of other races. Still, I find it an incredible blunder on their part that each cycle leaves behind enough clues for the next to develop MET. Call it speculation if you want (and I'm sure you will), but I believe it is very safe to say that Reapers leave these kinds of ruins (Mars, Ilos, etc) alone on purpose in order to facilitate the discovery of MET and the research stagnation that comes with it.

Evidence of this is that after 2500 years of discovering MET, the Asari haven't developed technology that could be considered "vastly" superior to what the humans or other races have. They are more advanced, but considering the amount of time that has passed and their longevity (which contributes greatly to the research effort), their "superiority" is neglible.

In any case, if the Reapers destroyed all technology related to MET but the mass relays themselves, it is most likely that races would develop alternative ways to travel in space. This would work against their own plan.

Granted, mass relays might provide a race some knowledge on MET, but considering their incredibly advanced design (something that only the Asari have begun to understand after millenia of studies and previous knowledge of MET), it is probable that most races wouldn't be able to understand the physics behind them.

Now, knowing that we were a space-faring race even before the events on
Mars - although we didn't have an efficient way to travel to other
systems yet -, it is probable that (just as you say) the Reapers would
have come to wipe us out anyway.

I do have some small reservations, or perhaps speculations as you you'd say:

a)
It is not yet clear how "advanced" a race has to be in order to be targeted by the reapers. Humanity's ability to colonize other planets in it's own home-system may not be enough. Though, in all fairness, it may.

The Charon relay was encased in ice when we found it. I'd have to consult a scientist to know if it was operational in those  conditions. Granted, even if it weren't, the Reapers could reach Sol by  using FTL drives. But that raises a question: How do the Reapers search  for advanced races? Do they just move around the galaxy looking for them
or do they depend on information acquired from harvested races and stored in the Citadel? Or both? Granted, it is possible the reapers knew about Earth's potential from the data they got after dealing with the Protheans.

c) Given your propensity for the Ark Projects, would your plan suffer a significant change if we hadn't developed MET? After all, Ilos and Eden Prime weren't back-water worlds but they still functioned as Ark planets. Consider this, the recent finding of the  Manswell Expedition suggests that our cryogenic technology is somewhat  functional.

At least one race has managed to survive for millenia without the use of MET, the ones we have come to know as "Virtual Aliens". Though their kind of existence may not appeal to most, it is an effective way to secure the future of a species. I will admit, however, that they haven't survived past any cycle and that their current state is, essentially, an Ark project.

In any case, the Prothean's so called "gift" to us (regarding MET) was a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it allowed us to travel through space and advance our technology. On the other, it didn't actually do much to help us fight the Reapers, most likely, it made their job easier.

The only "true" Prothean archievement was sabotaging the keepers so they wouldn't obey the signal telling them to  open the Citadel relay into dead space, thus preventing the Reapers from taking the station right after they started the war, cutting the head of galactic goverment and disabling the mass relays.

Even though that is a feat worthy of praise, that plan would have also failed if not for the intervention of Commander Shepard. Sovereign would have used the Citadel's relay to bring the rest of the Reaper fleet back from dark space if it hadn't been for the commander, thus rendering the Ilos' scientiest work moot.

In all likeness, knowing that the Prothean decline began with the assault on the Citadel, it is very likely that they didn't know there was a "Vanguard" Reaper overseeing their cycle, so I can understand this fault on their part.

I fear that a deep analysis of all of the above would lead us to a circular logic conclusion. So I'll cut to the chase.

The Protheans helped us develop our technology in the way the Reapers intended. Their warnings (despite of several ruins studied by different races) weren't heard because their Beacon technology was purposedely intended to work only on members of their race. If it hadn't been for the Cipher the Commander acquired from the Thorian creature in Feros, their warnings would have been lost all together. We managed to keep control of the Citadel thanks to the Ilos' scientiests, but it was actually our cycle that archieved that victory, since their effort would have gone to waste by the intervention of Sovereign. Finally, after all the resources we put on the Crucible, it ended up being useless.

In my opinion, we don't owe them for much.

But I'll be diplomatic.

Lets call it even.

Before we move on to a different subject, it would be noteworhty to mention that the Thorian did survive through at least one cycle, granted, not via confrontation.

***
References for this section:
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mars
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Timeline
http://masseffect.wi...triarch_Aethyta
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Charon_Relay
http://masseffect.wi...Centauri_System
http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien
http://masseffect.wi...Prothean_Beacon
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Cipher
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Thorian
***

On the Feasibility of Ark Projects

Let us go step by step.

Stasis Ark vs Live Ark

Ark Projects can be carried out in two ways.

1) Stasis Ark

The stasis ark project's main characteristic is that it relies in "hibernation" . By use of cryonegic or stasis technology, it allows the population to survive a long period of time without requiring nutrition. Another main characteristic is that it prevents the population from dying of old age, illness and other ailments.

These kind of projects are highly dependant on power, so this should be taken into consideration and made proportional to the amount of population being "stored". Leeway must be made in case of unforseen circumstances, like the need to remain in "hibernation" for a longer time than intended. Even though the project does not require vast amounts of supplies to attend to the population's needs while they hibernate, it should be noted that after the hibernation process has finished, common biological needs will become relevant once more. Thus, contingency plans must be in place to provide for the lack of vital resources like food or water, or out-of-world transportation.

However, stockpiles of "dormant" technology (landed ships, back-up power sources, etc) might degrade over time and/or be susceptible to active scans, threatening the project's secrecy.

2) Live Ark

The Live Ark's main characteristic is that it relies in a sustainable "artificial enviroment" to support its population. By the use of adapted housing techniques, a population can effectiveley survive in a "micro-colony" while carrying on their daily-lives to a certain extent, the limit being the necessity of remaining undetected. The other main characteristic of Live Arks is that since they have an "active" population, they require easy access to the common resources that allow for sentient life.

These kind of projects are highly dependant on organization, control and a sound use of the resources available to them. Population growth has to be kept in check, as it can't be allowed to surpass the tolerance threshold for the facilities. Since we are dealing with a live population, illness, age, and normal biological issues come into play, including social in-fighting like crime and discrepancies between leadership and/or leadership and population.

During the "hiding" stage of the project, resource gathering is dangerous, so it should be avoided at all cost. Sufficient supplies (including spare parts for the facility and all it's commodities) should be stockpiled to a degree which takes into account the amount of time the project is bound to last (with some leeway).However, the precautions for "dormant" technology advised for the Stasis Arks is applicable here.

Suitable Planets

When searching for planets for establishing Ark projects of either kind one has to consider two issues.

1) Hazzardous Conditions

Planets with high gravity, noxious atmospheres, problematic weather, high tectonic activity, extreme temperatures, dangerous indigenous lifeforms, proximity to high-transit areas of space or other characteristics which threaten the survivability of the project should be avoided. Note than while atmospheres which are not breathable are a salvagable impediment, corrosive ones are much harder to bypass (just to name an example).

2) Availability of Resources

After a succesful Ark project, resources will have to be gathered to begin rebuilding civilization. Planets with their own deposits (availability of Element Zero would be almost a must, since it will take time to acquire technology that disregards its need) are preferable. Failing this, nearby planets, asteroids or moons could be mined, though that would need vessels capable of space-flight and space-mining operations, as well as an infrastructure to support them.

Construction

Building the Ark Projects could take a significant amount of time depending on the conditions of the planet choosen for it. In any case, diligence should be taken on the construction so as to avoid any possible errors that could result in failure of the project (like not sealing habitats correctly, or installing malfunctioning hardware, for example). This means that any serious effort would take at least a couple of months. Sub-terranean projects, or other building conditions that require extra-effort add a degree of complexity that would surely increase the required time.

Accomodating species with "special needs" like the Volus (who
require a pressurized atmosphere) or the Quarians (with their weak
immune systems) would be an issue, most likely demanding further effort.

Logistics could also become problematic if projects demand specialized machinery, personnel or materials, since the current state of the Galaxy makes travelling without a proper escort highly dangerous.

Minimum Viable Population

Asari, Turian, Krogan, Human, Quarian, Batarian, Salarian, Elcor, Hanar, Drell, Volus, Rachni, Vorcha, Raloi, Geth and the Virtual Aliens are our cycle's current species... oh, and one Prothean.

Lets leave synthethics aside.

Though Nurgaliev's law is not fully appliable to all these species, we can draft some numbers and say that we'll require at least five hundred specimens of each to keep genetic diversity. Of course, Rachni are excused, we just need the Queen.

That's six thousand five hundred souls in total, plus one Rachni Queen and a Prothean. One "batch".

Of course, this population could be spread among different projects, preferrably, grouping spieces with things in common like the Quarians and Turians, the Krogans and Vorcha, etc.

Since birth rate is so diverse among species, with extremes like the Asari and the Salarians (for example), strict breeding rules will have to be put into effect so as to prevent the overpopulace of a particular race. Also the Asari present a curious problem when we consider their tendency to reproduce with other species but only produce off-spring of their own.

The Rachni Queen is also a problem. How to deal with her will require further study.

Secrecy and Safety Meassures

As previously stated, keeping the projects secret is vital to their success. This conversation could alredy be jeopardizing them. But well, lets asume nobody in this room is indoctrinated.

Of course that those chosen to participate will have to be investigated for signs of indoctrination, however, Vendetta's ability to detect this condition may not be easily reproduced. If the VI is still functional after the battle of Chronos Station, it could be possible to reproduce it's technology using its help, or have at least one project supervised by it. If it isn't, reproducing Prothean technology could be difficult. Vigil, the VI Commander Shepard consulted on Ilos, is, sadly, non-functional.

Anyone involved with the projects, families, officers, builders, ship-crews, etc., as well as any source of information that could give them away should be dealt with. I'm not suggesting we go the way of the pharaons, but it would be safer if, for example, the builders form part of the population of the Arks.

Remember, it wasn't an oversight that led to the "survival" of the Ilos project, it was the Reapers themselves destroying records of it when they first attacked the Citadel.

We aren't that lucky.

Re-Emergance and Combat Effectiveness

After laying in wait for centuries or thousands of years, assuming the projects weren't sabotaged, found out or didn't suffer from critical internal problems, it will be time to rebuild.

However, as I pointed out before, rebuilding isn't as easy as it sounds.

First, the available equipment will be very limited. Ships, for example, will be in short supply. As will any kind of infrastructure required for resource gathering. This means that "setting-up shop" will require at least a few decades.

Great care must still be taken with population growth until higher numbers become sustainable.

Supposing the projects have a basic infrastructure running, the whole matter of gathering resources from off-world becomes a dangerous issue. This danger will have to be taken, however, since building any sizable fleet will most likely require a considerable quantity of materials which can't possibly be supplied by a single planet, or even a system.

Since the main objective is gaining technological advantage over the reapers, great focus will have to be put on it. Still, given our prior "stagnation", it may be thousands of years before we get a breakthrough. During that time, population explosion is bound to happen (specially if you still have Krogan/Vorcha/Salarians), forcing the colonization of new planets and systems, further increasing the chance the projects will be found by Reaper Vanguard forces.

In all fairness. A single ship using MET could give us away. Stealth-technology could allow for safe exploration, but once big-scale development begins, our operations will be too big to hide. Fuel acquisition, mining, fleet movements, everything will further increase Reaper awareness. The more numerous we get, the more risk we have to bare. Also, in reality, even a fleet of just a hundred stealth-dreadnaughts would require way too much backing (fuel stations, shipyards, docks, etc.) to keep it hidden.

Building a fleet that rivals the Reapers' in number is just impossible without being found out. If we were to develop technology that puts the odds at 10/1 in our favor (an incredibly optimistic estimate, since the Reapers have had billions of years to advance their tech and it's currently 1/4 in their favor) we would still need (rough numbers) a minimum of nearly 30 dreadnaughts and who knows how many smaller vessels.

Also, broadening our new empire through colonization is also a liability, though it is unavoidable since population control can only accomplish so much and having only a handful of planets renders us suceptible to WMDs which could cause the exctinction of all the species we tried to save.

In essence, we'll be playing a dangerous game of hide and seek. Reaper Vanguard forces are bound to be traveling the galaxy looking for advanced races, if we expand too much, if we activate relays (which most likely can be detected from the Citadel since it controls the network), if we make one wrong turn before we are ready... it's over.

Feasibility

For this plan to succeed not only does the Ark Project have to work, but also, we have to be able to gain sufficient technological superiority and numbers without being found by the Reapers. Fifty-thousand years sounds like a long time, but the second we are detected, that counter reaches zero.

Uncertainty overshadows this plan.

While they hold the Citadel, the Reapers will still have control of the mass relays. Granted, given enough time, we could build our own relays and use them to travel (or develop better FTL tech), but this is also limited by our ability to affect the next cycle without being found out. The Reapers would still be able to traverse most of the Galaxy with ease and outmanouver our forces.

Also, our technological advancements could easily be adopted. And in the case we can actually bring the fight to them, they could jump back to Dead Space and regroup, maybe leaving some agents behind to leech technology and learn everything they can before they re-join the battle.

Too many assumptions are being made.

We assume information won't be leaked about the Ark Projects.
We assume the Projects will be able to "ride out the storm".
We assume we will be able to re-establish civilization and remain undetected.
We assume we will be able to develop technology rivaling or even better than what the Reapers have.
We assume that our advancement will be so great that we will render the Reaper's numbers non-important.
We assume that the Reapers will not adapt or incorporate our own technology.

Precedent says that in one billion years of galactic history (judging by the Leviathan of Dis), no other race has accomplished this. The ones that came the closest were the Protheans, and only thirteen of them survived on to the next cycle, bringing little in the manner of ways of defeating the Reapers.

Is this plan feasible?

Yes. Chances are extremely low in my opinion, but when faced with extinction, I believe we can spare some resources to give it a shot.

My personal opinion is that it won't work.

In any case, I opt-out. I can't hide in a cave while billions die.

I choose to fight.

***
References for this section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurgaliev%27s_law
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Vendetta
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil
http://masseffect.wi...ans#A_Sanctuary
***

On the Reapers attacking the Citadel

I am growing tired of arguing this particular point with you Admiral.

You know as much as me from how the actual fight in the Citadel happened, but you seem to disregard any deduction in light of whatever seems "simpler" to you.

You think that it's simpler for the Reapers to have destroyed every comm-buoy in their path until they reached the Citadel. This is, as you say, an assumption without any backing. Even if it were true, it would mean that dozens of ships got destroyed in the way without sending any kind of distress call. You are implying that the Reapers managed to ambush each and every system in their way (from wherever they came from), destroy the comm-buoys before nobody could detect them, destroy any present forces before any could escape, and move on so quickly that nobody noticed a neighbouring system going silent until they themselves were destroyed.

And then they did the same on their way back to Earth. While towing along the Citadel nonetheless... A process which can't be done at FTL speeds, meaning that they'd have to push the Citadel in the direction of the relay, stop it when it gets near, align it and plot a jump for an object over 7 billion metric tons in mass... at least four times.

And nobody was able to warn us about this until they got it orbiting Earth? Proposterous.

You are telling me that the Normandy is the only ship out there with a QEC? Isn't there one in the Citadel? It is the centre of galactic goverment and the craddle of our civilization, after all.

We do know what strains them and we do know they have vulnerabilities. You haven't been keeping up on your combat reports, have you?

***
References for this section:
http://masseffect.wi...Vulnerabilities
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities
***

On the Citadel's Nature as a Mass Relay

Your claim of the existance of a "twin" for the Citadel in dead space is even worse than my assumption of the Citadel having it's own propulsion systems. You provide no evidence and yet pretend to be immune to the same rules you subject my arguements to?

I'll tell you why it is virtually impossible for there to be a "twin" in dark space.

Because if there was, it would have been used by the Reapers to get back from dead space using it rather than using FTL. The Protheans were succesful in reprogramming the Keepers so they wouldn't obey the command to open the Citadel Relay. That's what we know, from the mouth of Vigil itself. They did not disable the relay itself.

Now, following your arguement of the Citadel relay being like any other relay, what prevented the Reapers from just activating the "twin" on their side and jumping to the Widow system?

Even if the Citadel was somehow disabled, the Protheans on Ilos managed to build a relay and direct it to the Citadel, don't you think that if there was a "twin" in dark space the race that created the mass relays would be able to do the same and simply link the "twin" with any other relay the wanted to?

And, still following your arguement, since you consider the Citadel to be just like any other relay, it must have some sort of thrusters of propulsion, since relays have to align with other relays in order to create a mass-free corridor.

The burden of proof is on you now, Admiral.

The Citadel has no twin in dead space, so it's completely logical to assume that it can create mass-free corridors on its own.

The Citadel is not only a huge space station that generates gravity from its circular movement but also a giant mass relay that may or may not require aligning itself with another relay in order to function, so it is completely logical to assume that it has some sort of thrusters or propulsion. Unless you are suggesting the Reapers made it and just decided to give it a spin after it was done.

***
References for this section:
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Conduit
http://masseffect.wi..._Relay#Overview
***

On the battle inside the Citadel

First and foremost, I'll part from the assumption of the Citadel's Wards being closed by C-SEC the second they realized Reaper forces were on the way. It would be only logical. You could argue that even if the Wards began to be closed after the Reapers jumped into the system (this would be assuming that no warning had reached the Citadel about the advancing enemy forces), a Reaper ship would be able to enter the Citadel before it was totally sealed. I say this is highly unlikely.

The Serpent Nebula is specifically designed to slow down attacking fleets. If Sovereign managed to get inside the Citadel during the Eden Prime War, it was because Saren had control of the station and actually used the wards to protect the reaper from enemy fire.

Now, with the Wards closed and the Citadel sealed. How do you propose the Reapers landed ground troops to take over the station?

Lets just assume they somehow did, they still need to fight the defenders, which brings me to the next point.

I provide a clear and detailed account of the Citadel defense forces, information anyone can gather from just going on the extranet and doing some math. And you say I have no basis? I'm dumbfounded, do you really pretend to have me quote every line out of a tourist guide?

C-SEC has over 200.000 officers, it's a widely known fact. Numbers should remain mostly the same, seeing the increase in recruitment motivated by the war and the loses suffered from the Cerberous Coup. (1)

SPECTRE's numbers have never truly be known, but a safe assumption made by the Human Systems Alliance puts their numbers at fewer than a hundred. (2) I guessed at least a dozen were on the Citadel when the Reapers hit, it's very pessimistic assumption, still, you doubt it? Give me a reason.

MERCENARIES: We know from Shepard's reports than Aria T'loak and the leaders for the Blue Sons, Blood Pack and Eclipse mercenary groups are present in the Citadel. (3) You pretend to tell me they brough no bodyguards or "hardware"? I estimated a "considerable amount", maybe hundreds of men among all of them. You have a different idea? I'm listening.

REFUGEES/OFF-DUTY SOLDIERS: It is a widely known fact the Citadel is a common shore-leave option for a lot of soliders or for those who require medical treatment. It is also a widely known fact that the Citadel was a safe heaven for thousands of refugees. (4)

GENERAL POPULATION: The number I gave (3% out of the 13.2 million) was a rough estimate based on the common number of military personnel per capita in populations. It was a very pessimistic number, most likely, it's higher. (5)

Since the Citadel showed no sign of aereal bombardement when we docked it with the Crucible, I think it is safe to assume that no ships managed to get inside the Wards before they were closed.

Without their air support, reaper ground forces will have had to land on the Citadel's exterior (in the vacuum of space), find a way inside and battle through half a million defenders.

And you pretend to make me believe all those people just sat there and allowed themselves to be turned into husks?

***
Before we go to the references, if you visit the Asari with psychological trauma in the hospital at the Citadel frecuently, you end up hearing from her story that a teenage girl killed a husk... with a stick.

References for this section:
http://masseffect.wi..._of_the_Citadel
http://masseffect.wi...itadel#Defenses
http://masseffect.wi...vices#Structure (1)
http://masseffect.wi...tres#Background (2)
http://masseffect.wi...k#Mass_Effect_3 (3)
Frankly there are no quotes for this, but it's obvious from just playing the game (4)
http://en.wikipedia....itary_personnel (5) I used the United States as a guide
***

On the Citadel and its importance to the War Effort

I have already explained a handful of times why the Citadel is important.

You fail to see it.

Can you consider for a single moment what would happen if your Ark Project should fail?

We need use of the Relays, and denying access to the Reapers would give us a tactical advantage like no other race has ever had over them. Why don't you give this the importance it deservers? Are you truly so blind?

You disregard a couple years as if they meant nothing. Do you realize how many back-up plans like your Ark Projects we could put into motion with that time? Do you realize that we could actually outmanouver the reapers and start winning battles without suffering staggering loses?

Do you even realize the huge morale boost it would be for the galaxy to regain control of the Citadel? All our hopes went to the Crucible, and it has proved useless.

Step outside this office Admiral, look at the faces of your men and tell me what you see.

We'll speak again in the morning.

Modifié par Deathcall, 31 mai 2012 - 07:01 .