310 réponses à ce sujet

[Deathcall]

@ Linkblade0

Lol, maybe Admiral, maybe.  In regards to your last post I agree with it generally, there are a few wrenches I feel the need to throw in however.

I am all ears.

It may be possible to counteract indoctrination (theory but at this point most of our ideas are just that so wth).  We know that it is possible to detect an indoctrinated presence (Thessia VI).  If we can utilize that technology it would be possible to discover an indoctrinated individual before they can cause any real harm.   We also know that it is possible to 'talk sense' into an indoctrinated individual.  Implying that indoctrination is a sort of... film, if you will, over the mind.  A proverbial devil on your shoulder.  Psycologically speaking it may be possible to defeat indoctrination provided they haven't recieved cybernetic implants to cement it. 

Yes, protheans did manage to develop programs that could detect indoctrination, sadly, the only vestiges of them are pretty much lost. The VI in Commander Shepard's report of the Eden Prime facilities gave no sign of being active, and the VI he encountered at Chronos Station may very well be out of order considering the damage suffered during our assault. In any case, the Asari, though they had no access to the VI per sé, had millenia to study it's technology and never came up with ways of stopping indoctrination. Granted, that may not have been their goal, but it sets a poor precedent.

Another poor precedent is that anyone who has been "talked out" of indoctrination ended up comitting suicide.

*** If you are pro-IT, even Shepard himself. ***

Before anyone argues that they weren't capable of using it on Eden Prime, It is more than likely a discovery made by the protheans on Thessia who were then unable to share it with the rest of their race. 

No, Javik, the Commander's Prothean companion, mentioned that VIs had already been programmed to detect indoctrination, but he isn't a scientiest and can't really help us at reproducing that technology.

I believe we should requisition some non-combatants who aren't providing necessary functions for the war effort (i.e. food and resource gathering and ship construction) and have them settle a few 'arc colonies'  these colonies are a carefully guarded secret, all those who know are subjected to regular indoc tests. 

In order for the projects to be succesful, research into anti-indoctrinaction techniques should be completed first. Otherwise, we have no ways of knowing if who we recruit are a liability or not.

......

Meanwhile we focus on war efforts.  Your plans for the Citadel is very well thought out and I would like to add that the primary reason none of the races know how the Citadel runs is because they are content to let the Keepers run it and the council made it illegal to pry.  If we are unable to run it, it must be destroyed.  While Operation Citadel is taking place have the asari work on understanding and looking at possible ways to reconstruct/rebuild/simulate the mass relays.   That way in case we do have to destroy the Citadel, if it shuts down the relays we can have a new network set up across vital points of interest relatively quickly.

Recovery of the Conduit on Ilos would be a priority. That's a piece of prothean technology which we can hope to emulate. Though, as any other research, it will take time.

If you have full war assets in game it shows that the fleet is doing mighty well for itself against the reapers.  Plus codex reports do support that the war effort is going better than what you hear among the refugees but keep in mind most of these people lost pretty much everything.  Kinda hard to not be pessimistic when that happens.  Have some of our scientists focus on developing an 'anti-reaper gun' and retrofit our ships with it and we will be doing some major damage.

Something based in "laser" technolgy perhaps? We know that barriers do not stop them. The power requirements are enourmous, but we DO have a giant piece of technology with huge power capabilities which we could put to some use... the Crucible.

Perhaps even enough to make it not worth it to the reapers.  If the reapers have any sense of self-preservation then baring outright destruction we could possibly force them to retreat by not making victory worth it...  Does this solve the issues with the cycle?  No, but it gives us time.  Prescious time.   Time we can use to reseat ourselves into the galaxy and focus on preparing for the next attack. 

We can only hope that you are right. Still, there's the overwhelming number of Reapers out there to consider, as well as the time it would take to develop and equip this "anti-reaper" gun.

Our most important stategy at this point is consolidation.  We need to manage our resources to the best of our abilities and focus on the survival of the races.

I agree, but without the Citadel or control of the mass relays, that would be remarkably harder.

***

Sorry for the delay, busy days.

Also, righteous BUMP, wish more people would take interest in this thread, if you dislike how ME3 ended, this is a good chance to prove how it COULD have ended without space magic.

***

[Vigil_N7]

The united fleet's success against the Reapers isn't too dissimilar from the ****s in WW2. Built for a short, quick success with a swift assault and overwhelming numbers so that the crucible can be docked, but not built for a long-run war.

Don't overestimate the united fleets - not all of them are going to be loyal to the death. Unlike the reapers, organics feel emotion, most important in this case fear. When word comes in that the crucible failed, moral will be DESTROYED.

Besides, look at the galaxy map at the end of the game, reapers cover every star cluster.

[Deathcall]

@ Vigil_N7

Which is why some sort of strategy must be put into place that allows us to enter combat and not lose vast numbers of our own while still inflicting casualties on the enemy.

Only the Quarians have the ability to flee this war, and they won't so easily abandon their newly recovered home-world.

The Reapers may be all over the Galaxy, but in what numbers?

I think that one of the first things to do if we decide to stay and fight is gather data about enemy fleet movement and numbers, specially along our supply lines and planets who can support population.

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

Too many assumptions are being made.

We assume information won't be leaked about the Ark Projects.
We assume the Projects will be able to "ride out the storm".
We assume we will be able to re-establish civilization and remain undetected.
We assume we will be able to develop technology rivaling or even better than what the Reapers have.
We assume that our advancement will be so great that we will render the Reaper's numbers non-important.
We assume that the Reapers will not adapt or incorporate our own technology.[/quote]

These are all assumptions for which precautions can be taken for. We did not destroy TIM's base, so Vendetta should be fine, and I do not see why Vendetta would not give us the capability to detect indoctrinated units. Aside from Vendetta, simply keeping the project tightly under wraps and erasing our steps could be sufficient. The Crucible was an enormous project, it was bound to be leaked. A colony size of a few thousand is relatively small.

Re-establishment and research depends almost exclusively on the method the Reapers use to detect space-faring civilizations. I have my doubts about their ability to monitor the Citadel or Relays closely, as doing so would have revealed the Crucible early on from the traffic heading towards it. We know that using advanced, active scanners draw their attention when used in close proximity, but passive scanners don't seem to produce the same results.

I think combinging visual cloaking tech with heat dissipation stealth tech should provide more than enough opportunity to scout systems and assess their safety. With a living ark colony in-place, maintenance can be performed on any powered down ships if necessary.

The largest unknown is the Reaper Vanguard; where it is and where it's going. However, once found, a special ops team - N7, STG, etc. could be dedicated to tracking it. Yes, it would be resource intensive, but it is the lynchpin.

[quote]Precedent says that in one billion years of galactic history (judging by the Leviathan of Dis), no other race has accomplished this. The ones that came the closest were the Protheans, and only thirteen of them survived on to the next cycle, bringing little in the manner of ways of defeating the Reapers.[/quote]

True. It is also the only plan that, as far as we know, has come close to success.

[quote]Is this plan feasible?

Yes. Chances are extremely low in my opinion, but when faced with extinction, I believe we can spare some resources to give it a shot.

My personal opinion is that it won't work.

In any case, I opt-out. I can't hide in a cave while billions die.

I choose to fight.[/quote]

As you say, that's your opinion. You choose to save the billions alive today, I choose to save the countless trillions alive in the future.

[quote]
On the Reapers attacking the Citadel

I am growing tired of arguing this particular point with you Admiral.

You know as much as me from how the actual fight in the Citadel happened, but you seem to disregard any deduction in light of whatever seems "simpler" to you.[/quote]

Given a lack of opposing evidence, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Increased complexity correlates to increased failure rates.

[quote]You think that it's simpler for the Reapers to have destroyed every comm-buoy in their path until they reached the Citadel. This is, as you say, an assumption without any backing. Even if it were true, it would mean that dozens of ships got destroyed in the way without sending any kind of distress call. You are implying that the Reapers managed to ambush each and every system in their way (from wherever they came from), destroy the comm-buoys before nobody could detect them, destroy any present forces before any could escape, and move on so quickly that nobody noticed a neighbouring system going silent until they themselves were destroyed.[/quote]

I doubt they operate so efficiently so as to destroy every ship, but I would target Comm Buoys first - or at least jam them in some fashion.

The Geth and Sovereign were more than capable of ambushing the Citadel in ME1, I don't see why a vastly superior force couldn't replicate the same Blitzkrieg. The Citadel expected confrontation, yes, but they didn't know when it would happen. Without the protection of the fleets, who were then surrounding the Crucible, it was an easy target.

[quote]And then they did the same on their way back to Earth. While towing along the Citadel nonetheless... A process which can't be done at FTL speeds, meaning that they'd have to push the Citadel in the direction of the relay, stop it when it gets near, align it and plot a jump for an object over 7 billion metric tons in mass... at least four times.[/quote]

I don't see why you bring up its mass. Yes, the Citadel is extremely large. However, moving and maneuvering the Citadel is a simple matter of numbers. You do not need to stop while traveling through Relays, the Relays simply take communicate and direct. You also retain your momentum at the other Relay, meaning less energy is require to maneuver than starting from zero velocity.

We also know that the Citadel has massive mass effect engines, as that's how it keeps its artificial gravity (in addition to centripetal motion) and atmosphere regulated, and acting as a Relay requires the ability to manipulate mass in an extremely advanced fashion. Lowering its own mass would make it significantly easier to tow and maneuver.

[quote]And nobody was able to warn us about this until they got it orbiting Earth? Proposterous.

You are telling me that the Normandy is the only ship out there with a QEC? Isn't there one in the Citadel? It is the centre of galactic goverment and the craddle of our civilization, after all.[/quote]

The comm silence is odd, but even if we received an SOS, what could we have done? The Sword Fleet would have been exposed and the Crucible would have been defenseless or significantly more vulnerable. That's assuming would could interfere in the first place. Four jumps isn't a lot. Less than an hour.

We don't know for sure where the Crucible was being constructed, and it's likely that Sword was more than four jumps away from the Citadel to begin with.

[quote]We do know what strains them and we do know they have vulnerabilities. You haven't been keeping up on your combat reports, have you?[/quote]

We don't know what strains their engines. Their mass effect engines are massive, and more advanced. Vulnerabilities in armor and weapon design do not reflect similar carelessness with engine and power design.

[quote]On the Citadel's Nature as a Mass Relay

Your claim of the existance of a "twin" for the Citadel in dead space is even worse than my assumption of the Citadel having it's own propulsion systems. You provide no evidence and yet pretend to be immune to the same rules you subject my arguements to?

I'll tell you why it is virtually impossible for there to be a "twin" in dark space.

Because if there was, it would have been used by the Reapers to get back from dead space using it rather than using FTL. The Protheans were succesful in reprogramming the Keepers so they wouldn't obey the command to open the Citadel Relay. That's what we know, from the mouth of Vigil itself. They did not disable the relay itself.

Now, following your arguement of the Citadel relay being like any other relay, what prevented the Reapers from just activating the "twin" on their side and jumping to the Widow system?[/quote]

There are two types of Relays.

One moves ships long distances and only connects to a single twin.
One moves ships short distances and connects to multiple relays.

The distance to dark space is excessive, so using the former is all-but necessary, implying that the Citadel was the dark space relay's only twin.

[quote]Even if the Citadel was somehow disabled, the Protheans on Ilos managed to build a relay and direct it to the Citadel, don't you think that if there was a "twin" in dark space the race that created the mass relays would be able to do the same and simply link the "twin" with any other relay the wanted to?[/quote]

Maybe it requires physical intervention to 'link' relays. Unfortunately, physics is a harsh mistress, and not everything can be done automatically. We know the Protheans couldn't reprogram relays, and we couldn't built even a basic working version - much less the ability to manipulate ones already in existence.

[quote]And, still following your arguement, since you consider the Citadel to be just like any other relay, it must have some sort of thrusters of propulsion, since relays have to align with other relays in order to create a mass-free corridor.

The burden of proof is on you now, Admiral.[/quote]

I never said it was impossible, merely that it seems unlikely. We don't have any evidence that the Citadel has any propulsion systems at all. We do have evidence of mass effect field manipulation, and we know the Reapers can simply grab the Citadel.

It seems, given the evidence, the Citadel could simply reduce its mass and be accelerated by a dozen Reapers to some velocity before they act as maneuvering thrusters, which would require less energy than accelerating the Citadel from rest.

However, I will admit that it's possible that the Citadel has thrusters. Then again, if it did, then it would only require the activation of the thrusters to get it to Earth and much fewer Reapers to activate them.

If your counter-argument is that Citadel defense forces would have prevented activation or done something to prevent Reapers from controlling the Citadel thrusters, then we're simply back to the minor problem of the Citadel not having thrusters in the first place.

In either situation, the Citadel can move or be moved to the Relays, and Earth.

[quote]The Citadel has no twin in dead space, so it's completely logical to assume that it can create mass-free corridors on its own. [/quote]

You say I have the burden of proof on a simple physics problem while you insist the Citadel acts like no other Relay and the Reapers are some of the worst strategists in the Galaxy.

It would have been much easier to construct a Citadel without Relay capability, then construct a twinless Relay and move it to dark space. That way the Reapers could ambush the galaxy without relying on the Citadel at all.

If the Reapers had the capability to build a Relay that didn't require a twin, the Protheans would have had nothing to interfere with and the cycle would not have been delayed for a single second.

[quote]The Citadel is not only a huge space station that generates gravity from its circular movement but also a giant mass relay that may or may not require aligning itself with another relay in order to function, so it is completely logical to assume that it has some sort of thrusters or propulsion. Unless you are suggesting the Reapers made it and just decided to give it a spin after it was done.[/quote]

Seeing as there's nothing to stop it from spinning in space, either is a possibility.

[quote]

On the battle inside the Citadel

First and foremost, I'll part from the assumption of the Citadel's Wards being closed by C-SEC the second they realized Reaper forces were on the way. It would be only logical. You could argue that even if the Wards began to be closed after the Reapers jumped into the system (this would be assuming that no warning had reached the Citadel about the advancing enemy forces), a Reaper ship would be able to enter the Citadel before it was totally sealed. I say this is highly unlikely.

The Serpent Nebula is specifically designed to slow down attacking fleets. If Sovereign managed to get inside the Citadel during the Eden Prime War, it was because Saren had control of the station and actually used the wards to protect the reaper from enemy fire.[/quote]

Good points. We do not know for sure what went on with the Citadel.

[quote]
Without their air support, reaper ground forces will have had to land on the Citadel's exterior (in the vacuum of space), find a way inside and battle through half a million defenders.

And you pretend to make me believe all those people just sat there and allowed themselves to be turned into husks?[/quote]

As you wish. Let's assume the Citadel defense forces are holding well.

How does that prevent the Reapers from moving the Citadel to Earth? As I said before, even with the arms closed and any possible thrusters disabled, it's a simple physics problem that relies on the numbers of Reapers available, not necessarily the ability to take over the Citadel.

[quote]
On the Citadel and its importance to the War Effort

I have already explained a handful of times why the Citadel is important.

You fail to see it.

Can you consider for a single moment what would happen if your Ark Project should fail?[/quote]

Extinction, as with every other species before us.

[quote]We need use of the Relays, and denying access to the Reapers would give us a tactical advantage like no other race has ever had over them. Why don't you give this the importance it deservers? Are you truly so blind?[/quote]

You have yet to explain what tactical advantage it gives. That's why I press the point. I have suggested that you could use the Citadel - assuming you were able and ready to utilize its ability as the router for the Relay network immediately, which is generous - to attack outlying Reapers who would fall to Sword Fleet quickly.

I fail to see the long-term advantage. By taking the Citadel, you immediately make yourself reliant on the Relay network to outmaneuver the Reapers. The Reapers built the Relays, and could rebuild them if necessary. That implies they shouldn't have any qualms about destroying them if necessary. Destroying Relays would narrow your avenues of attack and escape, and since the Reapers have the ability to instantly communicate with each other, there's nothing stopping Reapres on outlying planets to simply stop and join the main fleet if they're being picked off.

If I were the Reapers my response would be simple. You steal the Citadel and shut down the Relays around my area. I continue attacking Earth while letting other Reapers know what's happened and to be on the lookout for Sword and the Citadel. Some time later, Sword appears unexpectedly and destroys a few Reapers, deactivating the Relays behind them. It happens again. I immediately issue an order for outlying Reapers to set about destroying Relays - they could rig an asteroid to destroy the Relay after they use it to escape to another system and repeat. If they encounter Sword fleet, retreat via FTL and join the main Reaper fleet, which is heading via FTL and whatever Relays are active to where the Sword fleet, Crucible, and Citadel must be as I cut off their viable Relay routes.

Once enough Relays have been destroyed, cutting off Sword fleet from a fast escape from the target system, I come in via FTL and force a confrontation. Sword fleet is slower in FTL than the Reaper fleet, so they can't escape via that option, and they have been funneled to the target system because all their Relay routes have been destroyed.

Yes, it would take a while, but I'm immortal... it doesn't really matter how long it takes. And I'm not even setting traps to cut Sword off in this simple plan.

Reapers, reportedly, move at 30ly/day, twice as fast as Sword Fleet. It would take 9 years to span the galaxy, and since not all of Sword is stealthed, the Reapers are more than capable of tracking Sword in FTL.

[quote]You disregard a couple years as if they meant nothing. Do you realize how many back-up plans like your Ark Projects we could put into motion with that time? Do you realize that we could actually outmanouver the reapers and start winning battles without suffering staggering loses?[/quote]

Part of my ark-project plan is to hold a front while implementing the arks. I would expect Sword fleet to distract the Reapers as long as possible, but the Citadel almost seems like a liability to me.

[quote]Do you even realize the huge morale boost it would be for the galaxy to regain control of the Citadel? All our hopes went to the Crucible, and it has proved useless. [/quote]

Higher morale does not double the supply of ships, weapons, ammunition, or make the engines faster. Higher morale does not guarantee technological breakthroughs or miracles.

Wouldn't the moral boost also be somewhat flattened by retreating into the Rims and essentially sacrificing Earth, Thessia, Sur'Khesh, and most of the other homeworlds? You won't be able to repopulate or rebuild until the Reapers are defeated, and there's nothing preventing the main Reaper force from simply decimating Earth, then moving planet by planet before chasing down Sword.

Sword can only be in one place at a time, the Reapers aren't nearly so limited.

[quote]
Step outside this office Admiral, look at the faces of your men and tell me what you see.

We'll speak again in the morning.
[/quote]

I see a small slice in time. They are a moment, and you want to save a moment. I would prefer to save the future instead.

[Deathcall]

@Scimal

Precautions, technology and opinions.

You say all the points I presented regarding the feasability of Ark Projects can be dealt with proper precautions. I ask you, what precautions?

Information Leaking

Lets say you are able to recover the VI from Chronos Station and that it is fully functional.

How long will it take us to develop indoctrination-detection techniques?
Can we just copy the VI's program?
What if it's dependant on sensory hardware that we do not know how to build yet?
How can this prevent the Reapers from just intercepting our communications?
What's your estimate on the availability of this new technology? Months or years?
After everyone is dead or indoctrinated, how can we be sure that our own won't betray our secret?

Current and Future Technology

Some concerns about this.

Can we use passive scans to get geological information from planets?
Are we sure about stealth-technology working? The collectors saw through it when they destroyed the first Normandy.
Can we build facilities (refineries, shipyards, etc.) that can avoid detection as well?
How useful can stealth-tech be if it only works for a couple hours before heat needs to be radiated?
How do we track a Reaper if it moves faster than us, can use the mass relays as he wishes and we have to stop every so often to vent heat?
How do we hide our current technology from active scanners?

Facing the Reapers again

Mainly the same concerns, which you left unanswered.

How do we manage the equation "Remain Hidden until ready" vs "Armada capable of handling the Reapers"?
What prevents the Reapers from adapting to our new tech?
What do we do about the relay network?

The Citadel (again)

Whatever is simpler to you may or may not be what's truly "simpler". Hence, I compel you to try harder at explaining some oddities.

Sovereign and the Geth ambushed the Citadel in the past, yes. But the Council refused to see the danger at the time and had not prepared.

How do you propose the Reapers ambushed the Citadel this time when everyone was aware we were in a state of full-scale war, with most systems under attack?

How do you explain the comm-silence when even you couldn't admit that the Reapers not only destroyed every comm-buoy in their path, but also had no way of preventing QEC comms or simply stopping nearby systems from noticing something was amiss?

Knowing that friendly feets can reinforce the Citadel in manner of minutes  how do you explain the lack of support?

I'd like to point out to you that only human forces attacked Cronos Station, the rest of "Sword Fleet" wasn't present. *** or am I mistaken? I can't find a codex for this ***

Where did you gather that the Citadel has huge mass effects engines, my information mentiones some power plants and a few mass effect cores to create the Citadel's Tower gravity and keep the Ward's atmosphere in place but nothing else. This "reduce the Citadel's mass" plan you concocted sounds unfeasible.

I bring up the Citadel's mass so often in order to nullify any attempts of theory-craft at moving it through FTL or at any high speed all together. It even makes plotting jumps an issue, but that would be more guessing than fact.

You say it's just a matter of pushing the Citadel. I say that's an impressive feat, even for the Reapers. The fact that they most likely had to stop the rotational movement first already baffles me, that they moved it across several systems is even more far-fetched.

What could we have done? Given that attacking Cronos Station pretty much already exposed our plans, I'd say send every goddamn ship we had to defend the Citadel, since we just had found out it was required to make the Crucible work (for all the good it did to us).

An hour is an eternity if we can use the relay network.

***
We need to find out if Sword actually joined the Cronos Station attack. Though, I think not. Most likely, an entire Human fleet participated, which was already overkill to be honest. If I'm not mistaken, Sword/Shield/Hammer were names that came into play for Priority:Earth. Common sense dictates that you wouldn't have all your forces just "laying around", it's much more possible that they assembled for that particular operation. That's why I believe there were plenty reinforcements available to aid the Citadel, even with Hackett occupied at ganking Cerberus.
***

You still believe in a the Citadel's "twin"? How do you propose to prove it's existance? Your only arguement is that since there are only two types of relays that we know of, The Citadel must fall under one of those categories.

You disregard the fact that the Protheans on Ilos could manufacture a relay that linked to the Citadel without any kind of physical intervention (they were cut off in Ilos from the start), you also disregard the fact that since the Reapers created the relays (or so we believe) they should be able to accomplish the same feat quite easily.

***
We cannot hope to fill the plot-holes left by the writers.

You have no backing to support your idea. This "twin" was not mentioned, shown, or even implied. You support your arguement with a few lines from the Codex on a matter which the Codex itself keeps changing as new information is found, ie: the relays were once believed to be of prothean design.

In all fairness and truth, had you even thought of the possibility of a Citadel "twin" before I brough up the idea?

Here's another wild theory for you:

Maybe the relays don't need a pair to create a mass-free corridor, maybe they just use the pair to pin point a destination. It would make sense that they work in pairs because if they didn't, back-tracking would take forever. In this case, the Reapers, having created MET and the Relays themselves, can just make themselves the "point" and lock to the Citadel in order for it to create a mass-free corridor for them to travel through.
***

Surely, the Reapers can move the Citadel by pushing, I have no actual qualms with that as long as we agree there's no way they could have done so in a fast and "secretive" fashion.

The lack of any notice from their whole voyage, all the way from Widow to Sol is what confuses me.  Which is why I brought up the possibility of the Citadel either moving or jumping itself. Granted, the former possibility would still mean that it did so while avoiding detection, which is why I'm more fond of the latter.

Advantages of having control of the Citadel

Why do you keep arguing with me on this subject?
Are you so locked in your own idea for survival that you simply outright refuse the fact that having use (or control) of the relay network is a huge advante to us?

I already established that my plan for retaking the Citadel will not affect yours, in fact, it will help speed it along.
I already established that the resources needed for my plan are minimal.
I already established that if it isn't possible to control the network, we will prevent the Reapers from doing so, which means that the mission won't be meaningless even if what I asume isn't possible.

You want to know what we gain from having use of the network?

Behold Galactic Civilization. Built upon MET and the Mass Relays.

Without them, we are cut-off, stranded. If the Reapers were to shut down the network right now, even your Ark Projects would be nigh-impossible. QEC can only take us so far, our resources are spread thin, our ships facing the enemy in a thousand different systems and our population scattered.

Yes, it may take the Reapers only nine years to travel through our galaxy at FTL. It will take them remarkably less to move from system to system, or cluster to cluster. But it will take them longer. Hours, days, weeks, months... Each second we can outmanouver them, organize ourselves, liberate some of our colonies or even a homeplanet, is a second we delay extinction, it's a second more we have to figure out how to beat or outlast them.

On other matters...

Where do you gather that the Reapers can communicate with each other across the galaxy? It might be possible, I know, but I saw no reports on this.

Destroying the Relays would be counter-productive for the Reapers since they would wipe out entire systems. That alone is a problem, but when you consider that one of their objectives is harvesting, it makes that plan difficult. Unless they finish harvesting before interrupting the network. In any case, it would take time, and that's something we can use.

You have to remember that the combined fleet doesn't hold every vessel in the Galaxy, most races still have fleets defending their own planets. Sword and Shield could be repurposed to attack Reapers which attempt this tactic you propose, and we'd still have ships to spare to pick off targets of opportunity.

Also, using an IFF program and the Citadel we could deny the Reapers access to any relay in the galaxy.

How long do you think the combined fleet can hold against the Reaper fleet? Realistically? Even the portion on Earth proved a staggering challenge. If you plan to use them as "smoke" for your Ark Project, I hope you have some way of deploying it in less than a few days.

If you truly believe morale has no effect on people, I suggest you implement "suicide booths" onto your Ark Projects.

You want to save the future by sacrificing the entire galaxy to cover up your tracks. Every man, woman and child but those you tuck into your projects will die while your candidates cower in fear and hope they won't be found like a mouse hopes an owl won't swoop down and devour him. If you are so intent on saving the future, seed planets which are
candidates for hosting sentient-life in the future with capsules hidding
technology and information.

If our cycle is lost, our duty is to weaken the Reapers the best we can, not to sacrifice everything we stand for so a few of us can live.

Fight for Life, not for your life.

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

@Scimal

Precautions, technology and opinions.

You say all the points I presented regarding the feasability of Ark Projects can be dealt with proper precautions. I ask you, what precautions?[/quote]

We assume information won't be leaked about the Ark Projects.
Vendetta, self-deleting data streams, QEC use that can't be traced, and in extreme conditions self-sacrifice.

We assume the Projects will be able to "ride out the storm".
I fail to see why it wouldn't with the single exception of being discovered by the Reapers. The technology to live within artificial constructs is more than capable.

We assume we will be able to re-establish civilization and remain undetected.
Stealth technology, careful planning, and lots of scouting while avoiding the Citadel or the systems near the Citadel.

We assume we will be able to develop technology rivaling or even better than what the Reapers have.
We'd have 40,000+ years. The Reapers' main advantage is they harvest civilizations before they become capable of fighting back, so they never need to upgrade. TIM already figured out Indoctrination, the Turians already figured out their weapons, and the Crucible contained exotic physics that could still be put to use. There is absolutely no reason to believe that we wouldn't have better tech than the Reapers with the extra time.

We assume that our advancement will be so great that we will render the Reaper's numbers non-important.
That's your assumption. I favor both a fleet and tech capacity. I said so prior.

We assume that the Reapers will not adapt or incorporate our own technology.
We have bits of their code, bits of their tech, and Indoctrination figured out. By the end, the Geth were no longer susceptible to Reaper influence. Assuming we simply don't just build technology outside of Reaper comprehension with 40,000 years, then we can still outnumber them. As I said before, a single Dreadnought per year would wipe the Reapers off the map.

[quote]
Information Leaking

Lets say you are able to recover the VI from Chronos Station and that it is fully functional.

How long will it take us to develop indoctrination-detection techniques?
Can we just copy the VI's program?
What if it's dependant on sensory hardware that we do not know how to build yet?
How can this prevent the Reapers from just intercepting our communications?
What's your estimate on the availability of this new technology? Months or years?
After everyone is dead or indoctrinated, how can we be sure that our own won't betray our secret?[/quote]

-Quickly? Why would it take a long time unless it required very special and very specific hardware that cannot be immediately manufactured?

-Don't know, we'd have to ask Vendetta.

-Then that's a barrier, but not a dead-end to preventing the leak of information.

-QEC cannot be intercepted.

-I can't give you this answer. There is not enough information from the universe for this.

-Shoot them. Incinerate them. Vaporize them. Dead them and smash their heads.


[quote]
Some concerns about this.

Can we use passive scans to get geological information from planets?[/quote]

Sure. We can even walk around and do manual scans.

[quote]Are we sure about stealth-technology working? The collectors saw through it when they destroyed the first Normandy.[/quote]

It's not a guarantee, it's a precaution.

[quote]Can we build facilities (refineries, shipyards, etc.) that can avoid detection as well?[/quote]

I assume so, though it's just be easier to place them in systems which won't be explored.

[quote]How useful can stealth-tech be if it only works for a couple hours before heat needs to be radiated?[/quote]

Benefit assessments can be undertaken at any time.

[quote]How do we track a Reaper if it moves faster than us, can use the mass relays as he wishes and we have to stop every so often to vent heat?[/quote]

Not easily, but a wide net of scouts would be able the best option in that case. This is assuming it moves around a lot in the first place, and while I like to assume worst-case-scenario, the Rachni could have been Indoctrinated with almost any piece of Reaper tech - not Sovereign itself.

[quote]How do we hide our current technology from active scanners?[/quote]

Bury it under mineral deposits, but there's no evidence the Reapers actively scan any planets or systems during the harvest. They use databases compiled by the Citadel races themselves.

[quote]How do we manage the equation "Remain Hidden until ready" vs "Armada capable of handling the Reapers"?[/quote]

Carefully, as you would any life-or-death endeavor. Early-on, err on remaining hidden. After sufficient technology develops, the focus on a large armada could take place.

[quote]What prevents the Reapers from adapting to our new tech?[/quote]

They are not the Borg. What evidence is there that they adapt to any tech to any significant degree? They rely on harvesting species before they become technologically superior to the Reapers, and while I don't doubt that they take whatever new and novel techs and integrate them if they're superior, they stunt their own growth with the Cycle in the first place.

[quote]What do we do about the relay network?[/quote]

Avoid the Citadel.


[quote]How do you propose the Reapers ambushed the Citadel this time when everyone was aware we were in a state of full-scale war, with most systems under attack?[/quote]

It's only necessary that they take control of the Citadel with the assumption that the only way they can move the Citadel is with Citadel thrusters.

It's not, so even if the Citadel forces were adequately prepared and closed the arms, they can still tow it to Earth.

[quote]How do you explain the comm-silence when even you couldn't admit that the Reapers not only destroyed every comm-buoy in their path, but also had no way of preventing QEC comms or simply stopping nearby systems from noticing something was amiss?[/quote]

****ty writing.

[quote]Knowing that friendly feets can reinforce the Citadel in manner of minutes  how do you explain the lack of support?[/quote]

Minutes? You pulled that one out of nothing. We don't know how long it took Sword Fleet to reach Earth, because we don't know where they were to begin with.

[quote]I'd like to point out to you that only human forces attacked Cronos Station, the rest of "Sword Fleet" wasn't present. *** or am I mistaken? I can't find a codex for this ***[/quote]

The rest of Sword Fleet was still with the Crucible, regardless of who attacked Cronos Station. The Citadel's fleet protection was gone.

[quote]Where did you gather that the Citadel has huge mass effects engines, my information mentiones some power plants and a few mass effect cores to create the Citadel's Tower gravity and keep the Ward's atmosphere in place but nothing else. This "reduce the Citadel's mass" plan you concocted sounds unfeasible.[/quote]

It's a Relay. Relays rely on the mass effect brought on by Eezo. I can't confirm that the Citadel could reduce its mass to trivial amounts, but all the bits are there.

[quote]I bring up the Citadel's mass so often in order to nullify any attempts of theory-craft at moving it through FTL or at any high speed all together. It even makes plotting jumps an issue, but that would be more guessing than fact.[/quote]

I never suggested the Reapers moved it through FTL, that was your rebuttle to a non-existent statement.

You don't know if it makes plotting jumps an issue, so yes - you are guessing.

[quote]You say it's just a matter of pushing the Citadel. I say that's an impressive feat, even for the Reapers. The fact that they most likely had to stop the rotational movement first already baffles me, that they moved it across several systems is even more far-fetched.[/quote]

Why would they have to stop the rotational movement?

Why is it far-fetched?

[quote]What could we have done? Given that attacking Cronos Station pretty much already exposed our plans, I'd say send every goddamn ship we had to defend the Citadel, since we just had found out it was required to make the Crucible work (for all the good it did to us).[/quote]

An incredibly rash decision, considering we didn't know where the Citadel was or what the Reaper response would be.

[quote]An hour is an eternity if we can use the relay network.[/quote]

That was a guess. If Sword Fleet was further than 4 jumps away from Widow or any intervening Relay, then they could not have caught up. We don't know where Sword Fleet was, so there's a very good chance of that.

[quote]
***
We need to find out if Sword actually joined the Cronos Station attack. Though, I think not. Most likely, an entire Human fleet participated, which was already overkill to be honest. If I'm not mistaken, Sword/Shield/Hammer were names that came into play for Priority:Earth. Common sense dictates that you wouldn't have all your forces just "laying around", it's much more possible that they assembled for that particular operation. That's why I believe there were plenty reinforcements available to aid the Citadel, even with Hackett occupied at ganking Cerberus.
***[/quote]

You can defend the Citadel or defend the Crucible, not both.

[quote]You still believe in a the Citadel's "twin"? How do you propose to prove it's existance? Your only arguement is that since there are only two types of relays that we know of, The Citadel must fall under one of those categories.[/quote]

Actually, my other argument was that if the Citadel doesn't require the twin, the Reapers are monumental idiots.

Ask yourself this question: If the Citadel didn't require a twin, why not build a twinless Relay in darkspace?

[quote]You disregard the fact that the Protheans on Ilos could manufacture a relay that linked to the Citadel without any kind of physical intervention (they were cut off in Ilos from the start), you also disregard the fact that since the Reapers created the relays (or so we believe) they should be able to accomplish the same feat quite easily.[/quote]

It wasn't linked to the Citadel. It was linked to the Relay (that was thought to be a statue) inside the Citadel.

You know... this one.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Relay_Monument

[quote]We cannot hope to fill the plot-holes left by the writers.[/quote]

I agree, much like the lack of comm traffic.

[quote]You have no backing to support your idea. This "twin" was not mentioned, shown, or even implied.[/quote]

It's implied throughout the entire game. The very nature of the Relays is they are point-to-point transport. There's absolutely no other Relay that operates without a twin, nobody ever proposes a "twinless" Relay anywhere in the game, and the Reapers' actions only make sense if you assume there's the Citadel's twin in darkspace.

If you assume the Citadel simply open massless corridors to any point in the galaxy without a twin, you open up an incredibly ridiculous amount of plotholes that nullifies massive amounts of lore and the entirety of ME1.

[quote]You support your arguement with a few lines from the Codex on a matter which the Codex itself keeps changing as new information is found, ie: the relays were once believed to be of prothean design.

In all fairness and truth, had you even thought of the possibility of a Citadel "twin" before I brough up the idea?[/quote]

Uhh, yeah. I assumed it was there years ago when I played ME1. The Codex, all versions of the Codex, tell you that the Relays connect to each other. You said yourself, they must align. 

Your only evidence for why the Citadel must not have a twin is that otherwise moving the Citadel to Earth is inconvenient for your construction of events.

[quote]Here's another wild theory for you:

Maybe the relays don't need a pair to create a mass-free corridor, maybe they just use the pair to pin point a destination. It would make sense that they work in pairs because if they didn't, back-tracking would take forever. In this case, the Reapers, having created MET and the Relays themselves, can just make themselves the "point" and lock to the Citadel in order for it to create a mass-free corridor for them to travel through.
***[/quote]

You didn't follow through on what effect this would actually have, though. It doesn't really matter why the Relays need each other, but as long as they do, it's much more evidence for the Citadel's twin than against.

[quote]Surely, the Reapers can move the Citadel by pushing, I have no actual qualms with that as long as we agree there's no way they could have done so in a fast and "secretive" fashion.[/quote]

Secretive? Sure, I'll give you that one. Why does it have to be slow? It's space.

[quote]The lack of any notice from their whole voyage, all the way from Widow to Sol is what confuses me.  Which is why I brought up the possibility of the Citadel either moving or jumping itself. Granted, the former possibility would still mean that it did so while avoiding detection, which is why I'm more fond of the latter.[/quote]

"We cannot hope to fill the plot-holes left by the writers."

That's what you said. Your response to a curiosity is to fill the hole with a completely new function never seen in the series or anywhere in any other bit of material about the universe, and directly contradicted by the existing technology and the entire plot of the first game.

I am not saying it's impossible, I am saying that Indoctrination Theory has more going for it than "the Citadel can jump itself," and it's nothing but speculation based on hope.


[quote]Why do you keep arguing with me on this subject?
Are you so locked in your own idea for survival that you simply outright refuse the fact that having use (or control) of the relay network is a huge advante to us?[/quote]

You know what this isn't? An answer to my question.

If the benefit of hauling the Citadel around and shutting off the Relays at-will is beneficial in any other way other than those I've already said, please pretend I'm a 5-year-old and tell them to me.

You don't even have a plausible backup plan to steal it back in case your wild theory that the Citadel can jump itself turns out to be false.

Your plan, as far as I understand, goes like this:

-Board the Citadel.
-Find the console or interface that controls the Relays.
-Take control of the Relays..... on the spot.... somehow.
-Have the Citadel jump itself... an ability for which there's no evidence for.
-Retreat and cut off the Relasy behind you.
-Hit and run outlying Reapers with Sword while avoiding the main Reaper fleet.

If I have this wrong, please say so.

[quote]I already established that my plan for retaking the Citadel will not affect yours, in fact, it will help speed it along.[/quote]

It won't speed it along, but you're right. They don't exactly prevent resources from being spent on each other. My position isn't that your plan would give mine more time or would somehow benefit mine. My position is that your plan isn't a strategy prone to the victory you claim.

All I see it doing is delaying the inevitable. I don't see how it "Wins."

[quote]You want to know what we gain from having use of the network?

Behold Galactic Civilization. Built upon MET and the Mass Relays.

Without them, we are cut-off, stranded. If the Reapers were to shut down the network right now, even your Ark Projects would be nigh-impossible. QEC can only take us so far, our resources are spread thin, our ships facing the enemy in a thousand different systems and our population scattered.[/quote]

It's questionable whether or not they can at this point, but I will agree it's a threat.

[quote]Yes, it may take the Reapers only nine years to travel through our galaxy at FTL. It will take them remarkably less to move from system to system, or cluster to cluster. But it will take them longer. Hours, days, weeks, months... Each second we can outmanouver them, organize ourselves, liberate some of our colonies or even a homeplanet, is a second we delay extinction, it's a second more we have to figure out how to beat or outlast them.[/quote]

You're saying exactly what I presume your strategy is: A delay tactic, not one that produces victory.

You don't know how to beat them, your gamble on getting the Citadel back is to delay the Reapers - not destroy them.

At this point I can't say our plans are attempting to achieve the same thing. Ark colonies have the possibility of defeating the Reapers, permanently. Your plan could be used in conjunction with the ark colonies to buy more time, but it will not defeat them. Your plan enables mine.

[quote]On other matters...

Where do you gather that the Reapers can communicate with each other across the galaxy? It might be possible, I know, but I saw no reports on this.[/quote]

They communicated with the Collectors from darkspace, which would be from outside the galaxy to the core of the galaxy without any time delay.

[quote]Destroying the Relays would be counter-productive for the Reapers since they would wipe out entire systems. That alone is a problem, but when you consider that one of their objectives is harvesting, it makes that plan difficult. Unless they finish harvesting before interrupting the network. In any case, it would take time, and that's something we can use. [/quote]

They wouldn't have to destroy every Relay, and I merely assumed they wouldn't be able to power them down so destruction was the only option. They would only have to destroy key relays that acted as high traffic zones.

It wouldn't take a whole lot of time. Harvests last for centuries - perhaps millenia. A few extra weeks is nothing.

[quote]Also, using an IFF program and the Citadel we could deny the Reapers access to any relay in the galaxy.[/quote]

How would that work? The Reapers created the only IFF code used by a Relay. Why couldn't they just reprogram it back?

[quote]How long do you think the combined fleet can hold against the Reaper fleet? Realistically? Even the portion on Earth proved a staggering challenge. If you plan to use them as "smoke" for your Ark Project, I hope you have some way of deploying it in less than a few days.[/quote]

Now you're just being silly. I never said Sword would beat their heads against the Reapers in one spot until the colonies were ready. I favor similar tactics I presume you do when it comes to actual battles.

[quote]If you truly believe morale has no effect on people, I suggest you implement "suicide booths" onto your Ark Projects.[/quote]

Didn't say that, either.

I said higher morale wouldn't produce material goods out of nothing, or would be reliable enough to produce massive technological breakthroughs under duress. I'm well aware higher morale would improve combat ability and result in better efficiency, but it's not a panacea.

[quote]You want to save the future by sacrificing the entire galaxy to cover up your tracks. Every man, woman and child but those you tuck into your projects will die while your candidates cower in fear and hope they won't be found like a mouse hopes an owl won't swoop down and devour him.[/quote]

That's pretty much the jist of it, yup.

[quote]If you are so intent on saving the future, seed planets which are candidates for hosting sentient-life in the future with capsules hidding technology and information.[/quote]

I believe Liara had that one covered. Don't need to do it myself.

[quote]If our cycle is lost, our duty is to weaken the Reapers the best we can, not to sacrifice everything we stand for so a few of us can live.[/quote]

A few? A few at first, yes. Over 40,000+ years, that few turns into billions... trillions... and after the Reapers are defeated, there's nothing keeping those trillions from turning into quadrillions or more, or spreading across multiple galaxies.

You want to weaken the Reapers - break their toes or skin their elbows. I want to obliterate them.

[quote]
Fight for Life, not for your life.
[/quote]

You say this, but you've yet to reveal how your plan ends in anything but death.

Modifié par Scimal, 03 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[Deathcall]

@Scimal

These long chats are starting to wear on me...

You mention Vendetta, but we don't even know if it's still functional. We bombarded the hell out of Chronos Station and Shepard left the place like swiss cheese before he left. Even if the VI can be recovered, reproducing its technology (if its even possible, the Protheans were way more advanced than us) will take time, so it'll only be helpful at detecting indoctrinated agents wherever we decide to install it.

You mention self-deleting data streams, I'm no computer-whiz but I imagine that since the Reapers are the most advanced kind of AI and computer hardware out there, these stream will still be intercepted with much ease.

QEC is certainely a good advantage. There are a handful of problems though. First, availability. They aren't that common. Second, QECs work in pairs, they can only "talk" to matched particles. Third, communication through QEC may not be interceptable, but if indoctrinated sleeper agents are among those you communicate with (directly or indirectly) they can still leak the plan.

Self-sacrifice, well... it is sad, but I suppose that unless the Reapers can get information out of dead bodies, it is an effective way to conceal our progress.

If I may twist your words a bit... Being found by the Reapers isn't an exception, it's pretty much a rule. Now, every rule has an exception, but those are some slim chances. This is still the main weakness for the Ark Projects.

I already stated (and you admitted it's not a guarantee) that stealth-tech isn't as effective as it sounds. Careful planning would help yes, but being cut-off from the rest of the Galaxy (due to isolation) would mean that we'll be "running blind" out there, limiting our careful planning to pretty much "be careful". You will argue that scouting will negate our isolation, but if we can't rely on stealth-tech that much, I'd consider our scouts more a liability than an asset.

Now, I'll ask you allow me a bit more "guessing". The Citadel is the "main control" of the mass relay network. It has been stated by the Protheans that the Reapers are capable of preventing others from using the network if they wish. This would mean that they can access every relay from the Citadel and install an IFF program that will let only Reapers use them.

Logic would state that him who built the relays and can control them can also monitor them, making any use of the network a dangerous venture.

You argued that if this were possible, the Crucible would have been found out sooner, but given the fact that it ended up being useless, it's most likely the Reapers were content letting us spend our resources and fleets on it while they did their work.

Now you'll most likely argue about why they took the Citadel after finding out about the Crucible, on this subject we can speculate for days. Maybe they wanted to force a confrontation and deal a lethal blow to our armada, or maybe they were being extra-careful, in any case, the Citadel has value on its own as well, so it'd only make sense they take it. It only makes me wonder why they didn't seize it sooner in the conflict.

Anyway, using the relays to scout would be dangerous, and FTL has it's limits. Scouting won't be as easy as you make it sound.

How long we have to prepare for the next Reaper attack will depend on how long we can remain hidden. The second the Reapers know a previous cycle survived, they'll eliminate us. So the idea here is advancing our technology to a point where we don't care about being found.

The Illusive Man's findings on Husks can hardly been considered as having "cracked" indoctrination. Saying that he "understands" it would already be overreaching.

The Turians' thanix weapons are a "scaled-down" version of the magnetohydrodynamic ones the Reaper use. The mere fact that we still need three to four dreadnaughts to breach a Reaper dreadnaught's shields tells you just how "scaled-down" this Thanix weapons are.

The Crucible does hold some interesting technology, but the sources are still from races less advanced than the Reapers. It will help, yes, but I'm not sure how much. Also, remember that these races were caught in MET stagnation.

You want to use advanced tech and a numerous fleet to defeat the Reapers, but you fail to explain how you pretend to attain any of the above without alerting them of our presence. Both research and fleets require resources, the need increases with the scale of your project. Also, restricted population numbers mean less researchers or builders, thus slowing down the entire process, while higher population numbers means we are more prone to detection.

You say that early on the focus would be remaining hidden, meaning that you'll have to control your population, limiting the amount of personel you can assign to research. Also, lack or limited resources to perform experiments (eezo for example) mean longer learning curves that could span millenia. I already stated how the Asari have had MET for over two thousand years and haven't been able to develop anything remarkably superior to what everyone else has. Outgrowing stagnation may be harder than we think, and it'll certainely take longer given the conditions in which we'll have to do our work.

In any case, when the time to build up our strenght comes, not being found is still a main concern. Everything I said before about resources applies to this issue to. If we are found while we are still building our armada, we better have an incredible kill ratio, or the Reapers will overwhelm us with sheer numbers.

I'd like to bring an academical question to you. Mere speculation, but still important.

How long do you think the original cycle was? I mean, how long do you think the Reaper's makers had to develop their own technology? We know for sure that they were far more advanced than any race that we've encountered (dead or alive). I guess it's really impossible to know, that data may well be lost forever but... Add whatever length the "original" cycle could have lasted to the billions of years the Reapers have been around harvesting other races and improving their methods and I'm not sure even fifty thousand years (assuming we remain hidden that long) will be enough to develop better technology than theirs.

Anyway...

Unless you take everyone involved in the Ark Projects and hide them away too, they are bound to be left behind to be killed or captured... unless you have them killed. Meaning that these people would either have to commit suicide or risk leaking information. That's a pretty big risk if you ask me...

If you pretend to revert to 18th century prospection techniques, your resource gathering will be remarkably slow.

What systems are unlikely to be explored?

I think it'd be a safe assumption to say that the Reaper Vanguard moves around the galaxy a lot. After all, there may be advanced species who have yet to reach the Citadel (like the humans only a few decades ago).

Hide our technology under mineral deposits? That'd further increase the difficulty of the Ark Projects ten-fold... and there's evidence of the Reapers stripping planets out of their resources before leaving. Granted, it may be that they do it to colonized planets only.

All races adapt and evolve, I don't see why the Reapers would be any different. None of the Reapers seem to suffer from the "bug" that disabled Sovereign after Commander Shepard killed Saren while it was linked to him.

You can very well avoid the Citadel, that is easy. Can you avoid using the relays? Yes, most likely. But it'll slow you down. Manufacturing new relays would mean that'd still be dependant on MET and further develop our stagnation. I guess the best way out is developing new kinds of inter-stellar travel or faster FTL drives.

It truly bothers me when you claim I bring out perfectly sound data out of nowhere... you ought to read more reports, or at least, information brochures...

***
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel#Defenses

Clearly states that: "(...) reinforcements from all over the galaxy are only minutes away, due to the network of mass relays located nearby."

You ask for sources but then you don't bother reading them... sheesh.

In any case...

The fleet ammassed by Shepard wasn't in a single place. Alliance was in charge of defending the Crucible and attacking Cronos Station. "Sword" was one of the names granted to the amalgamation of fleets that joined Shepard's assault on the Reaper forces on Earth. Before said assault, they were doing their own thing (most likely defending their own holdings). There's no proof (that I know) that all those vessels just sat idly around the Crucible.

Can you disprove this?
***

Normal Mass Relays have a huge Element Zero core which they use to create the mass-free corridors. Never heard of the Citadel having one. I don't see how it can reduce it's mass without something similar, but then again (and to be fair) I don't see how it can function as a relay without it either. You could argue that it's hidden somewhere inside the station, but such an amount of eezo is bound to be detected by sensors, and the station isn't truly big enough to "hide" something so massive.

Assuming it uses something different to function, it will only prove that the Citadel, as a mass relay, is essentially different from others in the network, meaning that it could perform things impossible to other relays.

***
You say I brought the whole "it's impossible to FTL while moving the Citadel" thing out of nowhere, but It was a very valid point to counter-argue your initial assumptions of the Citadel being moved deftly and quickly to Earth with nobody noticing.

And, this is a forum. I somewhat expected someone to bring it up eventually, thought it would be easier to just disprove it right away.
***

I do believe plotting a jump while towing the Citadel would be an issue. If not for the Reapers, for us. Technically, the ship's pilot is in charge of "telling" a relay how much mass he's attempting to jump. I'm simply not entirely sure how this works while moving objects. Perhaps it'd be wiser to consult an expert on this matter.

There's also another issue I did not bring up. Just how much mass can a mass relay jump? Would it be possible to deduce this by the amount of eezo contained in it's core? We know entire fleets can use a relay at once, but how many ships share the same mass-free corridor? Are relays truly capable of creating a mass-free corridor able to move something as massive as the Citadel?

Too much guessing, I know. But perhaps some other admiral can shed some light on these subjects.

Why would they have to stop the rotational movement in order to move it? Well, I suppose it'd hamper their ability to direct it properly otherwise.

It's far-fetched because there's no way they can do it fast enough without us finding out sooner.

We would have known where the Citadel was if someone had managed to spot it along the way. And the Reaper's response would have been easy to foresee... they would have tried to destroy us.

And you say it was an incredible rash decision? As opposed to what? Letting more than thirtheen million people die and lose use of the relay network? Losing the Catalyst? Allowing them to reunite with their main force so it'd be even harder to take it back?

You keep assuming that "sword" fleet is the only fighting force in the Galaxy... this is not so. Why would all these ships be floating idly by the Crucible when they could be out there saving lives. And still, the Citadel must have had a sizeable defense fleet, and there would have been allies nearby for sure.

Defending the Citadel and the Crucible aren't exclusive. And even if they were, holding the Citadel is way more important than holding the Crucible, even when we thought it would work, since the latter doesn't function without the former. And lets not forget (once again) that the Citadel control the relay network.

Okay, lets assume the Reapers have a twin to the Citadel out there. Why do they need the Keepers to activate the relay at the Citadel for their twin to work? Why design it that way? Why not just a simple relay mechanic with an IFF to prevent races from jumping to their position while they hibernate?

Lets compare your question and mine and figure out which possibility makes the Reapers look more like fools.

If the Reapers have no "twin" it could be to a variety of unknown factors. They may simply not have the expertise to build it. After all, both the Citadel and the Relays are built from materials even the Reapers don't use. Perhaps they considered it would be too much of a liability, putting a back door right to their "nest" would mean that if some race figured out the true nature of the Citadel they could be ambushed themselves. Maybe they don't even need it, since it takes them only a couple months or a handful of years to get back to the galaxy at FTL.

The Citadel is precious because it was designed to control the relay network and function as the seat of galactic goverment and economy for the cycle's dominant races. Ambushing it gives the advantage to the Reapers at the start of each process of extinction. Not ambushing it (as in our cycle) deterrs their plans, but not by much, they still have overwhelming numbers and more advanced technology.

If the Reapers have a Citadel "twin" in darkspace. Why does it work so differently to other relays? The Protheans on Ilos managed to reprogram the Keepers so they'd disregard the signal given by the Vanguard forces instructing them to open the relay... Why would they make it so this entire process was required? Why not just have the Vanguard use QEC or whatever they use to wake them up and use the Citadel as if it were any other relay? Why "lock" themselves out? In any case, why install the control for the relay network in the Citadel and not the much more innaccesible twin in darkspace?

So which one makes the Reapers seem more incompetent?

...

Back to the nature of the Citadel as a mass relay and deciding if it has unique qualities or not.

Some relays have unique qualities, the Conduit is one, for example. It's mass-corridor is only one way. Granted, it was created by the Protheans. But what about the Alpha Relay? Have you read Dr. Kenson's research on it?

***
http://masseffect.wi...eapers'_Secrets
***

It's very interesting I assure you. And it proves that some relays have unique abilities, which greatly supports my arguement of the Citadel having some of it's own.

***
The only evidence in favor of the Citadel having a "twin" in darkspace is that otherwise you believe the Reapers to be complete idiots. Which isn't at any extent true, since they can carry out their plans regardless. It only took them a couple years to get back to the Galaxy and they only lost the element of surprise (well, not really, they still caught pretty much everyone with their pants down).

ME1 was about delaying the invasion, ME2 was about preparing and learning about the enemy and ME3 is about fighting it. If we hadn't stopped Sovereign during ME1, the Reapers would have ambushed the Citadel the same way they did on the last cycle, giving us no time to prepare.

What other plotholes do you think the "no twin" theory creates?
****

I didn't say that moving the Citadel would had to be done slowly, I said it couldn't be done fastly. Meaning, not fast enough for them to avoid detection.

***
"Your response to a curiosity is to fill the hole with a completely new
function never seen in the series or anywhere in any other bit of
material about the universe(...)"

Like the Starkid or the "different" endings? *sigh* Bioware opened the pandora's box for stuff like that, not me. At least my ideas don't require outright space magic.

"(...) and directly contradicted by the existing
technology and the entire plot of the first game."

I don't think my theories contradict the first game at all, they may be speculative yes, but they aren't contradictory. There's plenty of evidence that we don't fully understand Reaper technology, this includes the mass relays.
***

My plan goes along the lines you stated.

***
There are several issues concering different situations though.

For example, if the Crucible was docked with the Citadel, getting teams inside will be easy. If not, then we fall back to what we have already talked about.

Another example would be the capability of Sword and Shield to actually win at Earth. With high enough EMS, the game says that they are actually doing pretty well. If this actually led to a victory in Sol, there would be no need to hastely move the Citadel, we could take our time.

I already said that the main concern was the Citadel's safety. We can put scientist to work at figuring out the relay network. It's not more out there than your plan to reverse-engineer Vendetta so we can use anti-indoctrination VIs.
***

It's not a plan that will win us this fight right away, neither is yours.

It's a plan that may help us win in the future, like yours, just sooner, and without abandoning billions to their fates.

Both attempt to delay the inevitable.

Neither provide a final solution to the problem, just ways of circumventing it until others figure it out.

I don't think the Reaper's ability to block the relay network is questionable. Sovereign did it when he tried to take over the Citadel a few years back. Why wouldn't other Reapers be able to?

***
Plot-holes... I know.
***

How does having use of the relays not help speed along your plan? That's just completely unrealistic. Can't you see the logistical issues arising from being cut-off? First and foremost, you need to get the right people and equipment set up, then find a planet, get resources...

Explain to me how you pretend to do this without use of the Relays?

My plan does enable yours, I would go as far as to say that without my plan yours would either not be possible or incredibly difficult to carry out.

On other subjects...

Dr. Kenson's research seemed to suggest that the Alpha Relay sent comms to the Reapers in darkspace. It may be nothing, but it may also be that the Reapers use the relays as communication devices. If this is so, it doubles the importance of controling the network.

The Omega 4 relay is wrapped in mystery, the IFF created by the Reapers to grant the Collectors access to the Galactic Core (and seclusion) might well be special. Though, it might not. In any case, further study of IFF technology and how it can be implemented without the Citadel is a good idea. I'll add it to my own plans, suggest you do the same.

How long do you think it'll take to put your Ark Projects into motion?

High morale is a valuable asset *** it truly is... in game at least, it makes assets become more "powerful" *** But yes, I suppose that after the first generations died off, not many scientists will mourn the death of most of their spieces.

I'd like an extensive detail of how you propose to put your Ark Projects into motion, how they'll act once stated and what the protocols will be once they re-emerge onto the next cycle.

As it stands now, I'd say your plan is more hope than an actual solution, much like mine.

[Thaa_solon]

1 Activate the omega 13
2 turn back time
3 undo/redo entire ME3
4 ???
5 Profit!!1

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

You mention Vendetta, but we don't even know if it's still functional. We bombarded the hell out of Chronos Station and Shepard left the place like swiss cheese before he left. Even if the VI can be recovered, reproducing its technology (if its even possible, the Protheans were way more advanced than us) will take time, so it'll only be helpful at detecting indoctrinated agents wherever we decide to install it.[/quote]

Cronos Station wasn't destroyed as far as we know, and while Shepard did punch a hole through most of it, all of the computer systems were functioning normally. I don't see why Vendetta couldn't be recovered.

Yes, if the ability to detect Indoctrinated forces requires some special resources or extremely advanced manufacturing techniques, then it may not be possible. I said this earlier. As for where to install it - on the ships ferrying the survivors and throughout all of the colonies seems like the best choices.

[quote]You mention self-deleting data streams, I'm no computer-whiz but I imagine that since the Reapers are the most advanced kind of AI and computer hardware out there, these stream will still be intercepted with much ease.[/quote]

I was a bit vague. I meant self-deleting data, not necessarily streams. For instance, if a QEC is used, then the conversation may be recorded or the location of a ship recorded. Simple programs which completely delete any information as quickly as its being created should be implemented to prevent any record of the ark colonies from being retained.

QEC is certainely a good advantage. There are a handful of problems though. First, availability. They aren't that common. Second, QECs work in pairs, they can only "talk" to matched particles. Third, communication through QEC may not be interceptable, but if indoctrinated sleeper agents are among those you communicate with (directly or indirectly) they can still leak the plan.

[quote]If I may twist your words a bit... Being found by the Reapers isn't an exception, it's pretty much a rule. Now, every rule has an exception, but those are some slim chances. This is still the main weakness for the Ark Projects.[/quote]

Of course. It is a game of probabilities, not guarantees.

[quote]I already stated (and you admitted it's not a guarantee) that stealth-tech isn't as effective as it sounds. Careful planning would help yes, but being cut-off from the rest of the Galaxy (due to isolation) would mean that we'll be "running blind" out there, limiting our careful planning to pretty much "be careful". You will argue that scouting will negate our isolation, but if we can't rely on stealth-tech that much, I'd consider our scouts more a liability than an asset.[/quote]

Scouts would be necessary to the safe expansion of the new reborn civlizations. We know the Reapers leave behind a vanguard to assess and resolve any potential issues that might arise. We don't know if the vanguard moves, where it sits in wait if it doesn't, or how actively it keeps track of things. My guess would be that it does move between periods of hibernation of some length, and that it doesn't or can't keep careful track of who's using the Relays or the inner workings of the Citadel.

Without scouts, there's no way to make sure a system meant for expansion is safe. In light of this, I'd say stealth technology should be a major focus of research during and after the harvest until it's reasonably safe to venture out.

[quote]Now, I'll ask you allow me a bit more "guessing". The Citadel is the "main control" of the mass relay network. It has been stated by the Protheans that the Reapers are capable of preventing others from using the network if they wish. This would mean that they can access every relay from the Citadel and install an IFF program that will let only Reapers use them.

Logic would state that him who built the relays and can control them can also monitor them, making any use of the network a dangerous venture.

You argued that if this were possible, the Crucible would have been found out sooner, but given the fact that it ended up being useless, it's most likely the Reapers were content letting us spend our resources and fleets on it while they did their work.[/quote]

You're presuming knowledge the Reapers didn't have. They didn't know what we were building was a threat or not, unless they had spies telling them precisely what was being built - which cannot be proven or disproven.

However, for the time period after the harvest, unless they can tell what type of ship is being transported through the Relays, it shouldn't much matter. The Reapers want new species to use the Relays and eventually find the Citadel. If they can't tell if the ships are leftover species from the previous harvest, then we shouldn't draw their attention.

[quote]Now you'll most likely argue about why they took the Citadel after finding out about the Crucible, on this subject we can speculate for days. Maybe they wanted to force a confrontation and deal a lethal blow to our armada, or maybe they were being extra-careful, in any case, the Citadel has value on its own as well, so it'd only make sense they take it. It only makes me wonder why they didn't seize it sooner in the conflict.[/quote]

I won't conjecture why they took the Citadel, or why they did so when they did. You may argue as you wish, here.

[quote]Anyway, using the relays to scout would be dangerous, and FTL has it's limits. Scouting won't be as easy as you make it sound.[/quote]

I don't expect it to be. I expect scouting new systems to be very time-consuming and thorough. I expect stealth technology and FTL technology to be researched and advanced continuously until we're positive we can track the vanguard Reaper without being noticed.

Any help - Vendetta, EDI's databases from the Collectors, any data collected from the Reapers themselves, the Geth - should be utilized towards this end. The Geth were on the verge of Prothean-level technology, as were the Asari. Given a few hundred years of intense research after the harvest, I say it's probable stealth tech could advance enough to scout and stalk a Reaper.

[quote]How long we have to prepare for the next Reaper attack will depend on how long we can remain hidden. The second the Reapers know a previous cycle survived, they'll eliminate us. So the idea here is advancing our technology to a point where we don't care about being found.[/quote]

Yes. Either we remain hidden, or we outpace Reaper forces in either technology or size (or both). That is the gamble.

[quote]The Illusive Man's findings on Husks can hardly been considered as having "cracked" indoctrination. Saying that he "understands" it would already be overreaching.[/quote]

It's possible TIM's research into Indoctrination exceeded Vendetta's understanding of the process in some respects. Vendetta could recognize Indoctrinated units, TIM could - within a certain range - control them and Indoctrinate others to some extent. The potential value of his research is significant. Not only might it be possible to turn Reaper forces against them at long range, but the ability to detect Indoctrinated agents or completely prevent Indoctrination could all be possible outcomes.

[quote]The Turians' thanix weapons are a "scaled-down" version of the magnetohydrodynamic ones the Reaper use. The mere fact that we still need three to four dreadnaughts to breach a Reaper dreadnaught's shields tells you just how "scaled-down" this Thanix weapons are.[/quote]

True, but with a thorough understanding of Reaper weapons, shielding and armor become a possibility.

[quote]The Crucible does hold some interesting technology, but the sources are still from races less advanced than the Reapers. It will help, yes, but I'm not sure how much. Also, remember that these races were caught in MET stagnation.[/quote]

We can only be sure of the Protheans. The other races could have been significantly more advanced than the Reapers and simply unable to build it. Either way, the schematics contain knowledge we did not previously understand - and I will take any potential boon.

[quote]You want to use advanced tech and a numerous fleet to defeat the Reapers, but you fail to explain how you pretend to attain any of the above without alerting them of our presence. Both research and fleets require resources, the need increases with the scale of your project. Also, restricted population numbers mean less researchers or builders, thus slowing down the entire process, while higher population numbers means we are more prone to detection. [/quote]

My explanation, then, is thus:
-Wait the harvest out. A few centuries at most.
-Begin inhabitation of the system and utilization of resources, keeping communications through either tight-band laser or QEC - neither of which are transmitted beyond their targets.
-Research better stealth and sensor technology, comparing against known Reaper capabilities and extrapolating to probable points of overcoming Reaper detection.
-Once sufficient stealth tech has been achieved, scout nearby systems via FTL to inhabit or harvest.
-Scout via Relays if there aren't any indications they're being actively monitored for technology levels. Avoid the Citadel.
-Construct the fleet as-able, with emphasis on staying hidden and precautions against discovery.
-Find the Reaper, and track/observe it using stealth ships and passive sensors.
-Once the Reaper is found, more vigorous colonization and construction can take place.
-Build up technology and fleet levels, while keeping contact with any new species to bare minimum.
-Based on data from the previous cycle's attacks, once there are enough ships to take on 150% of the estimated max Reaper population, we ambush them in dark space.

[quote]You say that early on the focus would be remaining hidden, meaning that you'll have to control your population, limiting the amount of personel you can assign to research. Also, lack or limited resources to perform experiments (eezo for example) mean longer learning curves that could span millenia.[/quote]

Time is not of the essence. Even if it took 20,000 years to reach a sufficient level of advancement for ships to scout, harvest materials, and colonize planets without being detected, it would be acceptable.

[quote]I already stated how the Asari have had MET for over two thousand years and haven't been able to develop anything remarkably superior to what everyone else has. Outgrowing stagnation may be harder than we think, and it'll certainely take longer given the conditions in which we'll have to do our work.[/quote]

The Asari did not have much impetus to research alternatives. Stagnation occurred because the Reapers provided easy transport across the galaxy, nullifying the requirement for better FTL drives or alternative forms of travel.

The Reapers harvest every 50,000 years to prevent civilizations from out-stripping them in terms of militaristic technology and capacity.

Otherwise, yes, it could take a long time. Like I said earlier, however, even if it takes 20,000 years. The Citadel was only discovered some 3,000 years ago by the Asari. Imagine having 7x that amount to progress with a solid goal in-mind.

[quote]In any case, when the time to build up our strenght comes, not being found is still a main concern. Everything I said before about resources applies to this issue to. If we are found while we are still building our armada, we better have an incredible kill ratio, or the Reapers will overwhelm us with sheer numbers.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]How long do you think the original cycle was? I mean, how long do you think the Reaper's makers had to develop their own technology? We know for sure that they were far more advanced than any race that we've encountered (dead or alive). I guess it's really impossible to know, that data may well be lost forever but... Add whatever length the "original" cycle could have lasted to the billions of years the Reapers have been around harvesting other races and improving their methods and I'm not sure even fifty thousand years (assuming we remain hidden that long) will be enough to develop better technology than theirs.[/quote]

No idea, but I assume they chose the 50,000-year mark to ensure enough time for species to develop spaceflight but not oustrip them technologically. There were almost assuredly a few cycles that lasted shorter with unsatisfactory results, and a few that lasted longer with more damage to the Reaper fleet than we inflicted.

[quote]Unless you take everyone involved in the Ark Projects and hide them away too, they are bound to be left behind to be killed or captured... unless you have them killed. Meaning that these people would either have to commit suicide or risk leaking information. That's a pretty big risk if you ask me...[/quote]

If you want to reduce the risk, you simply kill them outright - as you suggest. Implant a device that explodes after a length of time, exposure to Reaper Indoctrination, or upon thinking/speaking/texting/signing anything to do with the project to another person.

[quote]If you pretend to revert to 18th century prospection techniques, your resource gathering will be remarkably slow.[/quote]

True, but the race is over 40,000 years long. There is time.

[quote]What systems are unlikely to be explored?[/quote]

I'd assume those far away from Relays.

[quote]I think it'd be a safe assumption to say that the Reaper Vanguard moves around the galaxy a lot. After all, there may be advanced species who have yet to reach the Citadel (like the humans only a few decades ago).

Hide our technology under mineral deposits? That'd further increase the difficulty of the Ark Projects ten-fold... and there's evidence of the Reapers stripping planets out of their resources before leaving. Granted, it may be that they do it to colonized planets only.[/quote]

What evidence is there of Reapers stripping uninhabited planets of their resources?

[quote]All races adapt and evolve, I don't see why the Reapers would be any different. None of the Reapers seem to suffer from the "bug" that disabled Sovereign after Commander Shepard killed Saren while it was linked to him.[/quote]

The Reapers were made, quite specifically, to not evolve. They believe themselves to be the ultimate form, timeless, and perfection embodied.

None of the other Reapers suffered the same fate as Sovereign because none of the other Reapers chosen organic vessels as avatars. Harbinger used the Collector General as a sort of proxy, insulating itself from the dangers that Sovereign exposed itself to.

[quote]You can very well avoid the Citadel, that is easy. Can you avoid using the relays? Yes, most likely. But it'll slow you down. Manufacturing new relays would mean that'd still be dependant on MET and further develop our stagnation. I guess the best way out is developing new kinds of inter-stellar travel or faster FTL drives.[/quote]

Time is not an issue.

[quote]It truly bothers me when you claim I bring out perfectly sound data out of nowhere... you ought to read more reports, or at least, information brochures...

***
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel#Defenses

Clearly states that: "(...) reinforcements from all over the galaxy are only minutes away, due to the network of mass relays located nearby."

You ask for sources but then you don't bother reading them... sheesh.[/quote]

That entry mentions the Citadel is protected by the Destiny Ascension and the Citadel Fleet - neither of which protect the Citadel after the Crucible began construction.

The Destiny Ascension may not have survived Sovereign's attack, depending on Shepard's actions.

Let's not insult each other's intelligence, here. That entry is quite obviously prior to the construction of the Crucible and the invasion by the Reapers. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Destiny Ascension patrols the space around the Citadel, or that the Citadel Fleet is a few minutes away from the Citadel after the Reapers attacked.

[quote]The fleet ammassed by Shepard wasn't in a single place. Alliance was in charge of defending the Crucible and attacking Cronos Station. "Sword" was one of the names granted to the amalgamation of fleets that joined Shepard's assault on the Reaper forces on Earth. Before said assault, they were doing their own thing (most likely defending their own holdings). There's no proof (that I know) that all those vessels just sat idly around the Crucible.

Can you disprove this?[/quote]

No, but neither can you prove that there was any sizeable fleet a few minutes away from the Citadel.

[quote]Normal Mass Relays have a huge Element Zero core which they use to create the mass-free corridors. Never heard of the Citadel having one.[/quote]

I haven't seen Turian females, but it doesn't mean they do not exist.

[quote]I don't see how it can reduce it's mass without something similar, but then again (and to be fair) I don't see how it can function as a relay without it either.[/quote]

Yet you still debate the point. Why?

[quote]You could argue that it's hidden somewhere inside the station, but such an amount of eezo is bound to be detected by sensors, and the station isn't truly big enough to "hide" something so massive.[/quote]

How big must something be to hide an Eezo core?

If an enormous amount of Eezo can be detected by sensors regardless of shielding, then why couldn't the ark-colony scouts use that to find and track the Reaper?

[quote]Assuming it uses something different to function, it will only prove that the Citadel, as a mass relay, is essentially different from others in the network, meaning that it could perform things impossible to other relays.[/quote]

Which is a completely baseless assumption. There isn't any evidence to suggest the Citadel is significantly different from any other relay with the two exceptions that it can control the other Relays and its shape.

[quote]***
You say I brought the whole "it's impossible to FTL while moving the Citadel" thing out of nowhere, but It was a very valid point to counter-argue your initial assumptions of the Citadel being moved deftly and quickly to Earth with nobody noticing.

And, this is a forum. I somewhat expected someone to bring it up eventually, thought it would be easier to just disprove it right away.
***[/quote]

Fair enough, but there's absolutely no need to repeat yourself. Moving the Citadel via FTL is problematic, and I knew that from the start.

[quote]I do believe plotting a jump while towing the Citadel would be an issue. If not for the Reapers, for us. Technically, the ship's pilot is in charge of "telling" a relay how much mass he's attempting to jump. I'm simply not entirely sure how this works while moving objects. Perhaps it'd be wiser to consult an expert on this matter.[/quote]

I'm not sure how it would act differently. Cargo ships must be able to pass through the Relays, and I don't see how it would be any different. The cargo is simply much larger than normal.

[quote]There's also another issue I did not bring up. Just how much mass can a mass relay jump? Would it be possible to deduce this by the amount of eezo contained in it's core? We know entire fleets can use a relay at once, but how many ships share the same mass-free corridor? Are relays truly capable of creating a mass-free corridor able to move something as massive as the Citadel?[/quote]

I assume so. It is the least problematic explanation I can think of.

[quote]Why would they have to stop the rotational movement in order to move it? Well, I suppose it'd hamper their ability to direct it properly otherwise.[/quote]

It adds a few minor calculations, that's about it. I don't see the rotational movement hampering the Reapers' ability to direct the accleration of the Citadel.

[quote]It's far-fetched because there's no way they can do it fast enough without us finding out sooner.[/quote]

Which logic do you want me to operate under?

You have proposed that the Citadel operates as a completel independent Relay with the ability to open a massless corridor powerful enough to transport itself (and possibly without an Eezo core?), but you ascribe the Reapers the inability to approach the Citadel (which they built, lest we remind each other) undetected and move it before SOS messages reach Shepard.

The former has absolutely no evidence to support it in the game and supposes miraculous technological capabilities on behalf of the Reapers, the latter strips the Reapers of any miraculous abilities and supposes they are no more capable of stealthy action than we are.

Given to the two antagonistic views, I cannot satisfy your objections without operating under one or the other.

[quote]And you say it was an incredible rash decision? As opposed to what? Letting more than thirtheen million people die and lose use of the relay network? Losing the Catalyst? Allowing them to reunite with their main force so it'd be even harder to take it back?[/quote]

Yes. Any counter would have been hastily planned and without the full strength of Sword. It would have been a risky intervention.

[quote]You keep assuming that "sword" fleet is the only fighting force in the Galaxy... this is not so. Why would all these ships be floating idly by the Crucible when they could be out there saving lives. And still, the Citadel must have had a sizeable defense fleet, and there would have been allies nearby for sure.[/quote]

I'm willing to accept that Sword wasn't idle by the Crucible, though large portions of it were (those directly under Admiral Hackett's command stayed to observe the construction). Let's also say I'm willing to accept there was a barebones defense fleet around the Citadel (all of the Council races' home planets were attacked before the Citadel).

Either they escaped to join Sword and couldn't fend off the Reapers, they never engaged knowing they were outgunned, or the defense fleet didn't exist at any strength at that point in time.

The Reapers took the Citadel. That is fact. Whatever fleet opposed them, if there was one, was decimated, and serves only to illustrate a potential plot hole - which, as you said, should not be paid attention to.

[quote]Okay, lets assume the Reapers have a twin to the Citadel out there. Why do they need the Keepers to activate the relay at the Citadel for their twin to work? Why design it that way? Why not just a simple relay mechanic with an IFF to prevent races from jumping to their position while they hibernate?[/quote]

The Relays are quantum shielded from damage. Their physical characteristics cannot change at the subatomic level. The Citadel's interior often undergoes manipulation by the Keepers as new offices are constructed, other areas demolished, and other technologies implemented. If the Citadel's Relay functionality was always-on, then the Keepers could not change the Citadel's layout or make modifications to an existing layout. That would be counter-productive to the purpose of the Citadel, as the Keepers ensure the Citadel adapts to the needs of nascent species in order to encourage inhabitation.

The Keeper's probably turned "On" the Relay function of the Citadel, quantum-locking the surface until the Reaper fleet was through, and turning it off again in wait for the next cycle so that the Citadel could be modified to new species.

[quote]Lets compare your question and mine and figure out which possibility makes the Reapers look more like fools.

If the Reapers have no "twin" it could be to a variety of unknown factors. They may simply not have the expertise to build it. After all, both the Citadel and the Relays are built from materials even the Reapers don't use. Perhaps they considered it would be too much of a liability, putting a back door right to their "nest" would mean that if some race figured out the true nature of the Citadel they could be ambushed themselves. Maybe they don't even need it, since it takes them only a couple months or a handful of years to get back to the galaxy at FTL.[/quote]

You're not answering my question from before, and you haven't addressed the largest flaw in your design: If the Reapers can construct a twinless Relay (or move the Citadel), why would they leave it behind? It is the ultimate method of ambush. They could easily set a timer to go off at the end of every cycle, wake up, use their twinless Relay, ambush the seat of power, and wipe everybody off the map. Sovereign would not have had to interfere - so ME1 would not have existed. They would not have had to use FTL for 3 years to reach the Alpha Relay - negating  "Arrival". There would be absolutely no reason for the Reapers to steal the Citadel in ME3 and take it to Earth.

I'm done arguing this. Your theory is full of conjecture while bereft of any evidence - implied or otherwise, and you refuse to answer for its flaws, preferring to continuously address issues you propose.

[quote]If the Reapers have a Citadel "twin" in darkspace. Why does it work so differently to other relays?
The Protheans on Ilos managed to reprogram the Keepers so they'd disregard the signal given by the Vanguard forces instructing them to open the relay... Why would they make it so this entire process was required? Why not just have the Vanguard use QEC or whatever they use to wake them up and use the Citadel as if it were any other relay? Why "lock" themselves out?[/quote]

As I said above, the best theory I can think of is that the Citadel needs to be malleable to perform its function as bait for the Reapers' trap. Relays are quantum-locked, preventing damage and physical manipulation of their subatomic structure, and if we assume that the quantum shielding is necessary for the safe operation of a Relay, then the Citadel could not act as a Relay at any point where it required modifications to accomodate new species. The Keepers were basically a remote to turn the Citadel's Relay functionality to "On," which would put the station in quantum shielding, prevent any damage or modifications from taking place, and allow the Reaper fleet to come through.

It does not explain every potential issue, but the Citadel having a twin provides the best explanations for the actions of the Reapers over the course of all three games.

[quote]So which one makes the Reapers seem more incompetent?[/quote]

Yours implies the Reapers are some of the worst strategists in all of recorded history, mine implies they added an unnecessary step.

I believe yours takes the honor.


[quote]Back to the nature of the Citadel as a mass relay and deciding if it has unique qualities or not.

What about the Alpha Relay? Have you read Dr. Kenson's research on it?

***
http://masseffect.wi...eapers'_Secrets
***
[/quote]

So it is a Primary Relay that can access other Primary Relays in disguise as a Secondary Relay. The only unique ability of the Alpha Relay is that it can access 16 other Primary Relays. I'm not positive how this supports your proposal that the Citadel doesn't need a twin.

It looks like either the initial method of attack for the Reapers, or a backup method.

How does its ability to connect to other Relays support your hypothesis that the Citadel doesn't require a twin (the Alpha apparently has 16 twins)? I don't know.

[quote]The only evidence in favor of the Citadel having a "twin" in darkspace is that otherwise you believe the Reapers to be complete idiots. Which isn't at any extent true, since they can carry out their plans regardless. It only took them a couple years to get back to the Galaxy and they only lost the element of surprise (well, not really, they still caught pretty much everyone with their pants down).[/quote]

And the proposition that the Reapers don't require Relays to invade the galaxy supports your theory, how?

Are you arguing for your points, or are you simply trying to tear mine down? Everything breaks down under intense enough scrutiny - even Gravity. If your actions are to rend my arguments to shreds, you are capable of doing so eventually. Particularly since all of the evidence I can use is what has been given to me by BioWare, not what anybody can personally observe, infer, or study. The granularity of Mass Effect's lore is deep, but it is not infinite.

I doubt that matters. For the last several retorts you've put far more effort into deconstructing my evidence than building your own. I belive that's all I need to know, since if you had any good evidence, you would have answered my questions or used it by now.

[quote]ME1 was about delaying the invasion, ME2 was about preparing and learning about the enemy and ME3 is about fighting it. If we hadn't stopped Sovereign during ME1, the Reapers would have ambushed the Citadel the same way they did on the last cycle, giving us no time to prepare.

What other plotholes do you think the "no twin" theory creates?
****[/quote]

If the Reapers are capable of constructing Relays that do not require a twin, then there should be absolutely no need for Sovereign's actions in ME1. If it was possible and the Reapers had one, ME1 should have started where ME3 starts - the galaxy already invaded.

[quote]"Your response to a curiosity is to fill the hole with a completely new
function never seen in the series or anywhere in any other bit of
material about the universe(...)"

Like the Starkid or the "different" endings? *sigh* Bioware opened the pandora's box for stuff like that, not me. At least my ideas don't require outright space magic.[/quote]

The Catalyst is an entirely different argument. My posts have, to this point, been constructed under the assumption that the Crucible did nothing - was useless.

Either way, this is a straw-man. The Catalyst's existence has absolutely no bearring on the validity of your claim for the Citadel.

[quote]"(...) and directly contradicted by the existing
technology and the entire plot of the first game."

I don't think my theories contradict the first game at all, they may be speculative yes, but they aren't contradictory. There's plenty of evidence that we don't fully understand Reaper technology, this includes the mass relays.
***[/quote]

It is not the prospect of misunderstood technology I take issue with, it is basic strategy. It makes far less strategic sense to have a twinless Relay in Widow than it does to have a twinned one if your goal is to ambush the galaxy.

[quote]It's not a plan that will win us this fight right away, neither is yours.

It's a plan that may help us win in the future, like yours, just sooner, and without abandoning billions to their fates.

Both attempt to delay the inevitable.

Neither provide a final solution to the problem, just ways of circumventing it until others figure it out.

I don't think the Reaper's ability to block the relay network is questionable. Sovereign did it when he tried to take over the Citadel a few years back. Why wouldn't other Reapers be able to?[/quote]

If both attempt to delay the inevitable and find solutions by circumventing confrontation until the 'issue' is figured out, then why wouldn't the plan with the most time to circumvent and address the issues be favored?

Sure, we can perform both. There's nothing stopping the ark colonies from being implemented at the same time you try to steal the Citadel, but mine has the potential for dozens of thousands of years before the final confrontation. Your plan plots the final confrontation within a century.

I just believe mine will be more successful for the reasons outlined prior.

[quote]How does having use of the relays not help speed along your plan? That's just completely unrealistic. Can't you see the logistical issues arising from being cut-off? First and foremost, you need to get the right people and equipment set up, then find a planet, get resources...

Explain to me how you pretend to do this without use of the Relays?[/quote]

Yes, using the Relays would improve the logistics of my plan. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary since FTL accomplishes the same thing as Relays - just in a much longer span of time.

[quote]On other subjects...

I'd like an extensive detail of how you propose to put your Ark Projects into motion, how they'll act once stated and what the protocols will be once they re-emerge onto the next cycle.

As it stands now, I'd say your plan is more hope than an actual solution, much like mine.
[/quote]

Not asking much, are we? How much more detail do you want than what I have provided? Do you want the names of officers and their genetic profiles? Shall I prepare a thousand contingency reports for your perusal while you insist on performing your own haphazard attempt at retaking the Citadel?

1) - Have most of Sword retreat through Charon and reconvene near the Crucible's construction site after extracting Vendetta from Cronos station.
2) - Choose a handful of capitol ships and frigates from each fleet - Turian, Salarian, Human, Asari, Geth, etc. - to harbor the survivors.
3) - Choose a few worlds - they don't have to be garden worlds, but close would be good. Utilize the manufacturing capabilities of the capitol ships and frigates, along with the vehicles - Makos, shuttles, etc. - to start digging out the caverns that would support the survivor population and making the technology used to support them. The capitol ships, themselves, could be harvested for power cores and resources once the projects progressed enough.
4) - Install the Indoctrination-Detection devices on all of the ships involved, and at several checkpoints inside the caverns.
5) - Prevent the creation of records about the projects and communicate through non-interferrable methods.
6) - Distract the Reapers as long as possible.
7) - Once the colonies are ready for habitation, choose military personnel to inhabit them, taking into accound genetic diversity, population sustainibility, etc.
8) - Cannibalize the ships used for constructing the colonies into the colonies themselves, leaving records behind that they were destroyed in combat.
9) - If any personnel are left that cannot be part of the colony but retain knowledge of it, kill them if necessary.
10) - Power down any advanced technology that might draw the attention of Reapers, disguise any entrances into the colonies, implement strict breeding protocols based on available food production, and wait.
11) - After a millenia, send out crude, passive sensors to assess the state of the galaxy. If the harvest is over, re-emerge.
12) - Scout, research, rebuild until there's enough of a force to destroy the Reapers twice over. Since I've already detailed this part in this very reply, I'll leave this step as-is.
13) - Once the fleet is ready, infiltrate the Citadel, turn on its Relay capability, and ambush the Reapers in darkspace while they're still hibernating.
14) - Hunt down any vanguards or remaining Reapers.
15) - Live happily ever after?

[Dendio1]

Unleash operation desperate men and have marines try to worm their way into the sovereign class reapers, unleashing nukes from the inside out.

[capn233]

Hide and wait for the upgraded Geth to win, as they would.

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

I had written another lovely lengthy answer but my computer crashed... so I'll keep this short.

Vendetta: If it can be done, go ahead. Take implementation time in consideration.

QEC: Hard to implement, will take time, dangerous if Vendetta type VIs aren't implemented with it.

Stealth: Need info on Reaper scanning capabilities for it to be safe.

Tim's research: Too dangerous to implement in Ark Projects, materials may indoctrinate researchers.

Stagnation: Dependancy on MET coats our entire current technology, outgrowing it will be really hard.

Time: Only not an issue as long as we manage to remain hidden.

Reapers Gathering Resources: No direct evidence of them stripping other than colonized planets of resources, we can speculate though.

Citadel Defenses and Reinforcements: Lets not dwell on game choices, it'll make things too cumbersome. The Destiny Ascension was probably defending the Citadel, don't see why not. Reinforcements being around is a given, war time and the Citadel being important (even without knowing about the Catalyst) and all.

Citadel Eezo Core: Mass Relays have cores bigger than Reaper dreadnaughts. The Citadel can't possibly hide one that big. If there's one, it must take a different shape or be somewhat different. Otherwise, the Citadel's relay may function in some way we don't know. Reapers have remarkably smaller cores, though probably much more efficient than anything we can build. I debate the point to strengthen my arguement of the Citadel being somewhat unique.

Citadel Relay being unique: Even if there's one difference, it makes it unique. It's bigger, has a "non-standard" core (if any), has a station built around it, requires direct activation by someone "inside", and it may or may not have quantum shielding.

Citadel Jumping or Moving itself: Too much arguing around plot-holes. I prefer to speculate in order to by-pass it, you prefer to stick to what you see. We can't argue properly following two totally different lines of thinking. It may or may not, we are both entitled to our opinion.

Citadel Twin: You still haven't explained why the Reapers chose such a complicated way to activate the Citadel Relay. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning on this subject, it's seems either derivative or it misses the point. The Reapers use the Citadel as a lure so the cycle's races take it and install the center of their goverment there. It becomes the perfect place to ambush. If they took it with them (which they don't need to, since they could build another one), it would most likely mean they'd have no "clear" place to ambush for increased impact. You also fail to explain why they installed the Relay Network controls there, when it would have been much wiser to install them on the Twin, or why they made the Twin only link to the Citadel, when it's very much possible to link it to any other relay in the network, even from darkspace. The Citadel having a twin actually makes the plot from ME1 non-important, since all evidence dictates that the Reapers could have used it to jump to another Relay in the network (proved by the Alpha Relay, which can link itself with the Citadel Relay, a distance much superior to the initial location of the hibernating Reapers). And the whole point of Quantum shielding... where did you get that the Citadel has any? Or are you presuming it does just because it's also a relay?

You say that the Citadel being able to create mass-free corridors on its own break appart the game's plot. I say that the Citadel having a twin does that even more. Agree to disagree?

Your Plan: It it works, awesome. I like the part about ambushing the Reapers in darkspace. Hadn't really thought about that. Makes much more sense, you wouldn't even need that much tec or ships to do so. Still, there's no reason to think that if there's a relay on the other side of the Citadel it will be "open". Finding the Reapers in darkspace might be nigh-impossible.

I truly intended a much more detailed answer, but you'll have to bear with me. After lossing three hours of writing, I don't have the strenght to do it again.

[shepard1038]

Didn't in me3 the game and characters tell you many times that you can't win conventionally. If that happen it
wouldn't make sense.

Modifié par shepard1038, 06 juin 2012 - 05:27 .

[Yalision]

Malanek999 wrote...

Retreat, then destroy the relay, sacrifice the sol system to destroy the reapers.

This.

[Scimal]

Deathcall wrote...

@ Scimal

I had written another lovely lengthy answer but my computer crashed... so I'll keep this short.

Vendetta: If it can be done, go ahead. Take implementation time in consideration.

QEC: Hard to implement, will take time, dangerous if Vendetta type VIs aren't implemented with it.

Stealth: Need info on Reaper scanning capabilities for it to be safe.

Tim's research: Too dangerous to implement in Ark Projects, materials may indoctrinate researchers.

Stagnation: Dependancy on MET coats our entire current technology, outgrowing it will be really hard.

Time: Only not an issue as long as we manage to remain hidden.

Agreed on all these fronts. I don't believe I've said otherwise.

Reapers Gathering Resources: No direct evidence of them stripping other than colonized planets of resources, we can speculate though.

There isn't a compelling reason to speculate. There must be some evidence to provoke speculation, otherwise it's pure conjecture and has little relevance to anything.

Citadel Defenses and Reinforcements: Lets not dwell on game choices, it'll make things too cumbersome. The Destiny Ascension was probably defending the Citadel, don't see why not. Reinforcements being around is a given, war time and the Citadel being important (even without knowing about the Catalyst) and all.

Then it retreated to Sword, along with any other fleet defenses. Why it didn't notify anybody is curious, yes, but I'm more prone to believe that's a missed detail by the writers than a completely new function of the Citadel.

Citadel Eezo Core: Mass Relays have cores bigger than Reaper dreadnaughts. The Citadel can't possibly hide one that big. If there's one, it must take a different shape or be somewhat different. Otherwise, the Citadel's relay may function in some way we don't know. Reapers have remarkably smaller cores, though probably much more efficient than anything we can build. I debate the point to strengthen my arguement of the Citadel being somewhat unique.

Actual dimensions of a Relay have never been released or mentioned, so your first sentence is speculation. The total mass of Eezo in a Relay must be greater than a Dreadnought in order to function - yes, but we don't know how dense the Eezo used by Relays is.

If your first sentence is incorrect, your following statements lose some veracity. You say the Citadel can't possibly hide a core that big unless it's in a different shape, but you don't know how big it is. The Citadel is much, much larger than a Dreadnought of any  species. Species live on the top few layers, and the extensive inner workings have never been explored.

Citadel Relay being unique: Even if there's one difference, it makes it unique. It's bigger, has a "non-standard" core (if any), has a station built around it, requires direct activation by someone "inside", and it may or may not have quantum shielding.

There are many designs for internal combustion engines. They've been around for 100+ years, and you have everything from a 2-stroke to a 750 HP V-12. There are Straight-6's, fuel-injected, and Hemi's. No matter the design, they all work on the same basic physics: You inject fuel into a pressurized chamber, ignite it creating a small explosion, the energy moves the piston, which is turned into mechanical energy to move the wheels.

To me, what you're suggesting is like every single Relay in the galaxy having an internal-combustion engine (with a few minor variations) except the Citadel, which uses a nuclear-powered hamster wheel.

Citadel Jumping or Moving itself: Too much arguing around plot-holes. I prefer to speculate in order to by-pass it, you prefer to stick to what you see. We can't argue properly following two totally different lines of thinking. It may or may not, we are both entitled to our opinion.

Well, actually, we can argue properly about two totally different lines of thinking. That's the purpose of a debate in the first place. We have different opinions, yes, but the debate is to determine if one is supported more by evidence than the other.

Citadel Twin: You still haven't explained why the Reapers chose such a complicated way to activate the Citadel Relay. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning on this subject, it's seems either derivative or it misses the point.The Reapers use the Citadel as a lure so the cycle's races take it and install the center of their goverment there. It becomes the perfect place to ambush. If they took it with them (which they don't need to, since they could build another one), it would most likely mean they'd have no "clear" place to ambush for increased impact. You also fail to explain why they installed the Relay Network controls there, when it would have been much wiser to install them on the Twin, or why they made the Twin only link to the Citadel, when it's very much possible to link it to any other relay in the network, even from darkspace. The Citadel having a twin actually makes the plot from ME1 non-important, since all evidence dictates that the Reapers could have used it to jump to another Relay in the network (proved by the Alpha Relay, which can link itself with the Citadel Relay, a distance much superior to the initial location of the hibernating Reapers). And the whole point of Quantum shielding... where did you get that the Citadel has any? Or are you presuming it does just because it's also a relay?

I will try to make my argument clearer:

Observations and assumptions -
*All of the Relays have quantum-shielding which prevents their subatomic structure from changing due to manipulation or damage. This is an observation.
*The quantum-shielding is required for the safe operation of mass-free corridors. This is an assumption, but not a baseless one.

We know the purpose of the Citadel is to concentrate the political leaders of space-faring species into one place. In order for the Citadel to carry out this particular function, it must be able to change its structure as one design cannot accomodate all possible species.

Quantum-shielding would prevent all modifications to the Citadel, and if we're working under the assumption that quantum-shielding is required for the safe operations of Relays, then the Citadel's functions as a Relay cannot be active at the same time at any point where it is beign modified.

The Keepers serve as maintenance crews to the Citadel - which is not something the Reapers could do remotely - and as another feint. By simply giving the Citadel's inhabitants what they require, repairing the Citadel better than its inhabitants, and dying at the slightest provocation - they prevent any curious species from exploring the Citadel too much since there isn't a non-academic reason to understand a thing if it appears to be self-sustaining and beneficial to you.

The most guaranteed way to activate the Citadel's Relay functions at a time when there isn't any maintenance being performed on any critical machinery is to command the Keepers to do so, since they would know the state of repair and rectify any issues before activation. Remotely activating the Relay functions carries the risk (however small) of doing so when the Citadel wasn't ready - which might result in the entire thing exploding.

That is the "Why" I have proposed for the system of activation the Reapers implemented.

To address the rest of your questions:

-"... no clear place to ambush if they took the Citadel with them." As you say, they can simply build another station. If the Citadel operated as you proposed, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't build another station in the Citadel's place and operate the twinless Relay from darkspace. The effect would be the same without the possibility of interference from inside the galaxy.

-Why make the twin link only to the Citadel instead of others in the network? The Citadel is a much higher-value target than the other Relays. The plan of the Reapers is to destroy the leadership of the galaxy and then utilize the Citadel to disable the Relays - behead, divide and conquer. The advantage of entering at the Citadel is enormous.

Why the darkspace twin does not link to a nearby Relay as a fall-back I cannot explain to my satisfaction, but I also think you underestimate the distances involved. The Citadel and its twin span more than 50,000 light-years, which is further than any other Relay I've noticed. It's possible the distance has something to do with it, but I am not entirely convinced given the mechanics presented to us.

-The Alpha Relay: Why not just use the Citadel's twin to link to the Alpha and then to the Citadel? I don't know. I cannot provide a sufficient enough answer as to why.

You say that the Citadel being able to create mass-free corridors on its own break appart the game's plot. I say that the Citadel having a twin does that even more. Agree to disagree?

We disagree regardless. It's the magnitude of the disparity that causes my disagreement. I'm more willing to accept that the Citadel has a twin in darkspace that can only link back to the Citadel due to some oversight or necessary calculation (like the distance involved) than I am willing to accept the Citadel acts in a manner completely different from the observations regarding every other Relay.

Yes, the Citadel is unique in some aspects, as are other Relays (Omega, Alpha) - but to reiterate my metaphor from above: It's not that I have trouble accepting different engine designs, it's I have trouble with your suggestion that the Citadel operates on entirely different physics altogether but fills the same function.

Your Plan: It it works, awesome. I like the part about ambushing the Reapers in darkspace. Hadn't really thought about that. Makes much more sense, you wouldn't even need that much tec or ships to do so. Still, there's no reason to think that if there's a relay on the other side of the Citadel it will be "open". Finding the Reapers in darkspace might be nigh-impossible.

True, if the darkspace Relay isn't active it would be extremely difficult to find them without either retrieving the information from another Reaper (like the vanguard) or getting stupendously lucky - even if we could narrow it down to within 30,000 light-years of the Alpha Relay.

I truly intended a much more detailed answer, but you'll have to bear with me. After lossing three hours of writing, I don't have the strenght to do it again.

My sympathies.

[Scimal]

Yalision wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Retreat, then destroy the relay, sacrifice the sol system to destroy the reapers.

This.

Does nothing.

Any undirected explosion of the Charon Relay would result in a shockwave traveling at lightspeed (if that - all observed ones have traveled slower than light). Reapers are capable of FTL. They would simply outrun it.

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

Size of Mass Relay Eezo Core

I did some guesswork judging by the images we get in the game with ships using Mass Relays. I think it's easy to extrapolate the size when you compare it to the size of the Normandy or other ships.

The Citadel's Wards are only 330m thick, or so says the codex, and the presidium doesn't look much thicker than that. Supposing we have access to 20% of of that "depth", that leaves only 264m of "unknown". It's way too small to fit a "standard" relay core. If the Citadel has one, it must have a different shape all together (not in a circular fashion like the normal relays, most likely something ring-shaped).

The Engine analogy

I suppose that if we go down to the basic technology we could say that all sorts of mass-accelerators, from the medieval cannons to the Reaper's hydro-whatever guns are pretty much the same, just more advanced.

More advanced, though, makes a lot of difference.

Citadel Jumping Itself

I don't think we can truly argue the point since I work around the plot-holes and you rather work with them. You justify it from the lack of concrete evidence, and all evidence I provide is negated by the plot-holes surrounding the entire event. I try to disprove your refutals, but you stick to the basic rules of the universe, rules which I believe aren't taxative.Thus, we will never reach an accord on this.

Citadel Twin

Granted, quantum shielding would prevent modifications on the station. Assuming that the station and the relay cannot be separated, I understand your point. It's still speculation, no evidence for it other than "it's a relay, so it should have quantum shielding." In any case, still poses another threatening plot-hole, why didn't they activate the stations shielding during Priority:Earth. And I have one doubt, can organics survive quantum shields? Wouldn't locking each particular to a molecular level effectively kill them? I'm not sure about the physics here.

I truly believe there was plenty of reason to study the workings of the Citadel. The fact that it was self-sufficient, and the Keepers themselves, would have been more than interesting subjects for academics. If there was no thorough studies done it was most likely out of fearing interfering with it's functions, not because of lack of curiosity.

The whole process of activating the Citadel relay, as it stands now, is still very complicated and could be easily worked around. If the Alpha relay can transmit info to the Reapers in darkspace, so should the Citadel relay be able to, thus need for the Keepers "telling" the Reapers when it's okay to jump is negated. You say yourself that access to the Citadel relay's innerworkings is negated to the races dwelling on the station, so it shouldn't be an issue.

If the Citadel operates the way I propose (opening mass-free corridors on it's own), the Twin relay should very much be able to jump the Reapers anywhere in range, yes. Thus I negate it's existance. The matter here would be arguing why they didn't build one in darkspace. Not my strongest point, I know.

You should ask yourself, why would they only link the Twin to the Citadel? No back-up plan was enacted? Why not multiple jump points (which is very doable judging from technology on the Alpha Relay).

Viper Nebula (location of the Alpha Relay) is on the edge of the galaxy, roughly south by southeast. The Serpent Nebula (location of the Citadel) is near the "middle" of the galaxy, slightly southwest. A bit of speculation says that the distance separating this two is about 2/3 of the Galaxy, that's (roughly) 33.000 light years. The reapers took 3 years to get to the Galaxy (codex says they started as soon as Sovereign failed), at their speed (30ly/d), that means they were about 32.850 light years in darkspace. If there's a twin linking to the Citadel, it must mean that they can make relays which can form mass-free corridors at distances greater than 65.000 light years. Also, that they should have southern accents.

Relay Physics

We don't know them.

Question, do two relays forming a mass-free corridor activate their Eezo cores in unison in order to function?

I strongly believe there's a possibility that Relays require another to function just to pin-point the location to where they are propelling the ship which activates them. They work in pairs so as to no strand people using them (who would have to backtrack at normal FTL speeds).

Can a Relay, any relay, work on it's own? No evidence, but from pure physicis, would it be possible?

[Scimal]

[quote]Deathcall wrote...

@ Scimal

Size of Mass Relay Eezo Core

I did some guesswork judging by the images we get in the game with ships using Mass Relays. I think it's easy to extrapolate the size when you compare it to the size of the Normandy or other ships.

The Citadel's Wards are only 330m thick, or so says the codex, and the presidium doesn't look much thicker than that. Supposing we have access to 20% of of that "depth", that leaves only 264m of "unknown". It's way too small to fit a "standard" relay core. If the Citadel has one, it must have a different shape all together (not in a circular fashion like the normal relays, most likely something ring-shaped).[/quote]

You could hide several dreadnoughts within the Citadel specs you mentioned. Alliance Dreadnoughts are only about 1km long and much less than 1/4th of their length in height.

[quote]
The Engine analogy

I suppose that if we go down to the basic technology we could say that all sorts of mass-accelerators, from the medieval cannons to the Reaper's hydro-whatever guns are pretty much the same, just more advanced.

More advanced, though, makes a lot of difference.[/quote]

I'd love to hear how ironcland cannons are pretty much the same as the Reaper weapons outside of "They apply a force to a mass."

[quote]
Citadel Twin

Granted, quantum shielding would prevent modifications on the station. Assuming that the station and the relay cannot be separated, I understand your point. It's still speculation, no evidence for it other than "it's a relay, so it should have quantum shielding." In any case, still poses another threatening plot-hole, why didn't they activate the stations shielding during Priority:Earth. And I have one doubt, can organics survive quantum shields? Wouldn't locking each particular to a molecular level effectively kill them? I'm not sure about the physics here.[/quote]

I don't follow why they would need to activate the quantum shielding, if we're assuming the Citadel has it, during Priority:Earth. The Citadel is never put in harm's way.

As for the physics - it describes stasis. Having every molecule in your body quantum locked would mean you exist in that moment until the lock dissipates. No atomic movement means no aging, no thoughts, and no damage from any other processes.

[quote]I truly believe there was plenty of reason to study the workings of the Citadel. The fact that it was self-sufficient, and the Keepers themselves, would have been more than interesting subjects for academics. If there was no thorough studies done it was most likely out of fearing interfering with it's functions, not because of lack of curiosity.[/quote]

Possibly. Either way, the Citadel's inner workings are still unmapped.

[quote]The whole process of activating the Citadel relay, as it stands now, is still very complicated and could be easily worked around. If the Alpha relay can transmit info to the Reapers in darkspace, so should the Citadel relay be able to, thus need for the Keepers "telling" the Reapers when it's okay to jump is negated. You say yourself that access to the Citadel relay's innerworkings is negated to the races dwelling on the station, so it shouldn't be an issue.[/quote]

I'm not sure what info you're referring to with the Reapers.

[quote]The matter here would be arguing why they didn't build one in darkspace. Not my strongest point, I know.[/quote]

Exactly, and that's been my big question for a while.

[quote]You should ask yourself, why would they only link the Twin to the Citadel? No back-up plan was enacted? Why not multiple jump points (which is very doable judging from technology on the Alpha Relay).[/quote]

As I said before, I haven't thought of a sufficient explanation.

[quote]Viper Nebula (location of the Alpha Relay) is on the edge of the galaxy, roughly south by southeast. The Serpent Nebula (location of the Citadel) is near the "middle" of the galaxy, slightly southwest. A bit of speculation says that the distance separating this two is about 2/3 of the Galaxy, that's (roughly) 33.000 light years. [/quote]

The Milky Way is about 100,000 light-years across. 2/3rds would be about 67,000 light-years, not 33,000.

[quote]
Relay Physics

We don't know them.

Question, do two relays forming a mass-free corridor activate their Eezo cores in unison in order to function?[/quote]

I would say no, since the Relay Monument didn't appear to have a visible Eezo core when it was the destination of the Conduit.

[quote]
I strongly believe there's a possibility that Relays require another to function just to pin-point the location to where they are propelling the ship which activates them. They work in pairs so as to no strand people using them (who would have to backtrack at normal FTL speeds).[/quote]

Possible, but my biggest issue is your weakness from earlier: Why not just build one in darkspace and construct a Citadel that wasn't a Relay for other species to inhabit?

[quote]
Can a Relay, any relay, work on it's own? No evidence, but from pure physicis, would it be possible?
[/quote]

Given that we haven't seen any evidence of a Relay working on its own, I want to say 'no.' Every Relay has a twin (or more than 1 twin), but we've seen exactly 0 Relays that don't have a twin. Personally, I always thought of the Relay system as a "thrower" and "catcher" - one Relay opens the corridor and accelerates the mass of the passenger, the other slows them down.

Otherwise the corridor would end at some point while and all of the mass negated would suddenly "appear" again, perhaps catastrophically, or if the corridor never ended, the ship would have to apply its own force to slow itself down.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

"I for one welcome our new reaper overlords"

[Steelcan]

Has anyone considered nuking the reapers back to the stone age? Nukes are present they are mentioned several times in the games. Nuclear or even asteroid bombardment of lost planets and reaper capital ships. Hit and run atacks on smaller forces. 4 dreadnoughts to one capital ship? How about all the dreadnought left in the galaxy against only a few reapers at a time, say 50 to 4. Clear the reapers out system by system, starting small and working up to more heavy reaper areas. I doubt many dreadnoughts would be lost using frigates, carriers etc.... as well.  Mov quickly through relays to avoid being bogged down in a nasty large scale battle, and if all else fails call up the covenant. I'm sure they can help.

Modifié par Steelcan, 04 août 2012 - 04:15 .

[OblivionDawn]

My orders? Hell, I guess fight to our deaths, and wait for the Reapers from surrounding systems to converge on our position. Good knowing you.

[Abraham_uk]

Put Shepard in a stasis pod.
Get Liara's vigil to mention that the Crucible is a waste of time.

Hope that Shepard will be revived during the next cycle.
Hope that people heed Shepard's warnings this time.

[Orion the Geth]

This unit believes Cheesecake-Grand Admiral has been indoctrinated...

[Adanu]

"Nice knowing you Shepard"

Seriously, the Crucible is not useless. The options given just aren't optimal for you.

[A0170]

Adanu wrote...

"Nice knowing you Shepard"

Seriously, the Crucible is not useless. The options given just aren't optimal for you.

I know. This is a strictly hypothetical thread asking what you would do if you were the supreme military commander of the galaxy and the Crucible was revealed to be a dud. Would you try and fight on? Or would you try and find a way to survive into the next cycle? Its all up to you.

Modifié par A0170, 08 août 2012 - 08:32 .