310 réponses à ce sujet

[Tapkomet]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

People don't seem to be aware that a SuperNova explosion like that of a Relay being destroyed would move at 10% of the speed of light.[/quote]
Where did you get that figure from?
[/quote]
Where else? Wikipedia.[/quote]

Let's speculate that a Relay explosion is different, and actually travels at speed of light.

[Yorkston9152]

Im sorry but when i saw the title of this thread all i thought was this

[MisterJB]

Tapkomet wrote...
Let's speculate that a Relay explosion is different, and actually travels at speed of light.

The Reapers would still be able to move at FTL speeds.

[Malanek]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

People don't seem to be aware that a SuperNova explosion like that of a Relay being destroyed would move at 10% of the speed of light.

Where did you get that figure from?

Where else? Wikipedia.

Does the ME3 wiki state that or wikipaedia about supernovas? Don't bring real world physics into ME3. There is nothing to suggest that a relay explosion, such as we saw in arrival is the same as a collapsed star. If we take the graphic that showed that system being wiped aways as the best guess we have it would hint that the explosion moves at about 2000 times the speed of light, which although in all likliehood is impossible, is just the same as many other things in the ME world. 

[justafan]

The first course of action should be to destroy the citadel. It is not only the nexus of the relay network but a relay itself. I would order the fleets through the Charon Relay, then blast everything we have at the Citadel. Regardless of whether the arms are open or not, 100,000 ships firing mass accelerator and thanix rounds all hitting it at once should be enough to rip through any shields or armor. After that volley the fleet would GTFO, because as a giant relay, the explosion of the citadel should incinerate every reaper in Sol.

With the citadel destroyed, we would no longer have to worry about the relay network being shut off and would engage the Reapers in hit-and-run tactics. Unfortunately, I never sabotage the genophage, so would have to solely rely on Human and Quarian stealth vessels for recon. However, the Quarians should be able to help retrofit some more ships to stealth mode. Using these ships, we could scout where the reaper forces were week, then attack with overwhelming force. The Turian, Geth, Human, and Asari fleets would engage space forces while the Quarian flotilla and Volus bombers hit ground targets for an invasion forces of Krogan. Planets would only be liberated and held on too long enough to gather food and supplies, as mobility would be key in a conventional war with the reapers.

Homeworlds would have to be sacrificed at the outset for the greater good. Simultaneous strikes on all occupied homeworld relays (So Rannoch, Sur-Kesh and Dekunna would all be spared) would be carried out so as to trap the reaper forces there and to not alert them to this strategy.  This could be accomplished by simply attaching ships or probes from stealth ships to asteroids and setting them on a collision course.  This would eliminate not only a sizeable amount of Reapers, but also limit their supply of husks. From there, it is all about recon. Finding reaper holdouts and keep hitting them. All the while scout ships would be dispatched to find uncharted worlds to be colonized. These safe havens would be used to grow food and necessary supplies. Hopefully, we would get to a point where enough reapers were dead that it would be feasible to defend important worlds. From there it would be a matter of rebuilding ships, because in the long run, we have an advantage in numbers, as it takes 50,000 years to replace one reaper.

Modifié par justafan, 10 mai 2012 - 09:36 .

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MisterJB wrote...
Which is exactly what we did when Hackett ordered a full retreat.
Blowing up our homeworld is an entirelly different matter all together. Try to ask the Primarch to destroy Pallaven and see the answer. 

Given the Turian inclination towards victory at any cost "if even one Turian is left standing it was worth it" and self-sacrifice, I think they'd be willing.

No, we won't. 1% of Earth's population is more numerous than the biggest of our colonies.

Which doesn't prevent the species from surviving. It would be rough but not the end. Even if it is the end, at least future cycles will have a better chance because of it. Or perhaps be freed from the cycle altogether.

The best we could hope for wouold be subservience to alien masters in case we even won the war. No one will let us keep our Council seat out of the kidness of their hearts.

Did you pull that from a Cerberus propaganda rag or something? The whole galaxy's a wreck and we just saved their asses.

Becoming a Reaper is preferrable to extinction. At least a part of humanity will survive.

Oh hi Saren. I thought you were dead. But as I said on Virmire, submission is not preferable to extinction. I'd rather die fighting.

And being butchered and liquified is not survival.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 10 mai 2012 - 09:20 .

[A0170]

Erield wrote...

But for all intensive purposes

I think you meant "For all intents and purposes."

On-topic. We know that "the bulk" of the Reaper forces are near Earth, along with the Citadel (which is capable of shutting down the Relay network.) My plan would be to sacrifice a sizable portion of the combined fleet in engaging Reaper forces around Earth. Simultaneously, we'd have a team or three set about detonating the Relay. Expected result: Sol system is gone, along with 90% of the Reaper forces in-system, Citadel, and 50% of my total fleet strength.

While engaging in Sol, I would split my remaining fleet into thirds (approximately 16.67% of total beginning fleet strength). Each of these would be tasked with eliminating Reaper ships around a major colony (pop 100mil+). Entire fleet would then rejoin at a point near Sur'kesh. Scouts would be needed to determine strength of Reapers in Sur'kesh system. It went untouched by Reaper forces in main-game that we saw, but is likely to be a prime target; it is also a prime source of resources, and should be defended if possible.

From that point, it would be a case of attacking Reaper ships en masse when we have an overwhelming numerical advantage in ships, and retreating when we do not. Sur'kesh and Rannoch (assuming Geth are allies) will be primary planets to defend. If Reaper ships are on-planet in force, pinpoint bombardment is approved.

This strategy is not likely to lead to victory, but should be able to inflict significant casualties upon the Reapers. If the initial gambit in Sol system fails (ie, fewer than 80% of the Reaper ships + Citadel are destroyed), then Operation: Oh **** begins. This is basically refitting the combined galactic fleet into a Quarian Flotilla equivalent and taking on as many surviving people as possible. A sustainable population from each race receives primary slotting on ships; after that, population is distributed based on a number of factors that boils down to: how necessary are they to the survival of life? The Galactic Flotilla will then use traditional FTL to find planets far away from Relays to colonize. This is also not likely to end well.

Changed it to "intents and purposes" lol. Thanks for pointing that out.

Interesting tactics but isn't their a Reaper icon above the Salarian home system right before you start Priority: Earth? To me that suggests a sizable Reaper presence on Sur'Kesh. 

Rannoch is still free, and should be defended like you said. Kahje may be free as well, if you help out Bau and Kasumi. The game however doesn't reveal its ultimate fate so we can't be certain. If it is free, we could still use it as a military base until the Reapers eventually come. 

Meanwhile your point about creating a giant Migrant Fleet is certainly interesting. The logistical issues of having to feed and resupply such a large force while keeping it hidden from the Reapers would be a huge problem. Although I guess the galaxy is large enough for the fleet to hide for a while.

Modifié par A0170, 10 mai 2012 - 09:24 .

[grey_wind]

Bill Casey wrote...

Concentrate all fire on Harbinger...
**** Harbinger, seriously...
I repeat, **** Harbinger...

If the Reapers are getting a victory, it's going to be a Pyrrhic one...

I support this.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MisterJB wrote...

Tapkomet wrote...
Let's speculate that a Relay explosion is different, and actually travels at speed of light.

The Reapers would still be able to move at FTL speeds.

But unable to see it coming and react in time.

[MisterJB]

Malanek999 wrote...
Does the ME3 wiki state that or wikipaedia about supernovas? Don't bring real world physics into ME3. There is nothing to suggest that a relay explosion, such as we saw in arrival is the same as a collapsed star.

Do you have something that would suggest the release of massive amounts of eezo energy without the use of an electric current would break the speed of light?
If you don't, we should base ourselves in the closest real world equivalent we have. Even Amanda Kenson compared the explosion of a Relay to a SuperNova.

If we take the graphic that showed that system being wiped aways as the best guess we have it would hint that the explosion moves at about 2000 times the speed of light, which although in all likliehood is impossible, is just the same as many other things in the ME world. 

Do you mean the Galaxy Map? The Map showed the Relay dissapearing. We have no idea how long it took for the explosion to reach the batarian colony and the Charon Relay is quite distant from Earth.
If a Relay explosion moved at 50% of the speed of light, it would still take hours before it reached Earth and the Reapers.

[The fool you should have eaten]

Bill Casey wrote...

I still think we should have spent the time/energy/resources building the Crucible into weaponizing some Mass Relays...

Find out a way to slingshot Reapers into black holes using the mass effect principle...

That would be great!   Make our own IFFs to let us go where we want and send them into the middle of a star or something like that.

[MisterJB]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...
But unable to see it coming and react in time.

Unless they have a couple of Destroyers, Bob and Bill, monitoring the Relay who would warn the main fleet.
Of course, if they do have Reapers monitoring the Relay, they can just move and impend any attempt from the allied fleets. Hell, I could see the Alliance secretly warning them so the plan would fail.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Does the ME3 wiki state that or wikipaedia about supernovas? Don't bring real world physics into ME3. There is nothing to suggest that a relay explosion, such as we saw in arrival is the same as a collapsed star.

Do you have something that would suggest the release of massive amounts of eezo energy without the use of an electric current would break the speed of light?
If you don't, we should base ourselves in the closest real world equivalent we have. Even Amanda Kenson compared the explosion of a Relay to a SuperNova.

She compared the effects, not the nature. A supernova would effectively kill a system, as does a relay explosion. And there is plenty of electric current within the relay itself, the static buildup that is the result of creating mass effect fields.

MisterJB wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...
But unable to see it coming and react in time.

Unless they have a couple of Destroyers, Bob and Bill, monitoring the Relay who would warn the main fleet.
Of
course, if they do have Reapers monitoring the Relay, they can just
move and impend any attempt from the allied fleets. Hell, I could see
the Alliance secretly warning them so the plan would fail.

Then we make damn sure all reapers are engaged and kill any that aren't.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 10 mai 2012 - 09:30 .

[Malanek]

MisterJB wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
Does the ME3 wiki state that or wikipaedia about supernovas? Don't bring real world physics into ME3. There is nothing to suggest that a relay explosion, such as we saw in arrival is the same as a collapsed star.

Do you have something that would suggest the release of massive amounts of eezo energy without the use of an electric current would break the speed of light?
If you don't, we should base ourselves in the closest real world equivalent we have. Even Amanda Kenson compared the explosion of a Relay to a SuperNova.

 
She was talking about the amount of energy released. Real world physics have already been broken many times over. I don't really want to get into a nerdrage discussion about how these things work (because they don't) but you originally made a claim you have no way of substantiating. If these alien machines can travel several time the speed of light through propulsion methods, there is nothing to say that the pulse from a destroyed machine, that was capable of propelling other objects many times fatser, should not also be faster.

MisterJB wrote...

If we take the graphic that showed that system being wiped aways as the best guess we have it would hint that the explosion moves at about 2000 times the speed of light, which although in all likliehood is impossible, is just the same as many other things in the ME world. 

Do you mean the Galaxy Map? The Map showed the Relay dissapearing. We have no idea how long it took for the explosion to reach the batarian colony and the Charon Relay is quite distant from Earth.
If a Relay explosion moved at 50% of the speed of light, it would still take hours before it reached Earth and the Reapers.

It showed a pulse. I didn't say 0.5 times the speed of light, I said about 2000 times the speed of light.

[Malanek]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...
But unable to see it coming and react in time.

Which is an excellent point.

[MisterJB]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...
Given the Turian inclination towards victory at any cost "if even one Turian is left standing it was worth it" and self-sacrifice, I think they'd be willing.

As soon as Reapers started descending on Pallaven, the Hierarchy gave up on a battle strategy that had felled a few Capital Reapers already to protect their homeworld. They may talk big, no species is willing to see their home burn.
And, even if they did, salarians, asari, quarians, krogan, none of them would destroy the Relay leading to their system.

Which doesn't prevent the species from surviving. It would be rough but not the end. Even if it is the end, at least future cycles will have a better chance because of it. Or perhaps be freed from the cycle altogether.

Unless the other species just decide to finish what the Reapers started to ensure the humans can never compete in the galactic stage again.
Personally, I couldn't care less about future cycles. My priority is ensuring humanity survives in some form.

Did you pull that from a Cerberus propaganda rag or something? The whole galaxy's a wreck and we just saved their asses.

Because I don't just have to open an history book to see what happens to once powerful nations after a war.
Not to mention humans have been treated as second classe citizens ever since we appeared.
First Contact War, no help against the Geth, no help against the batarians, no help against the Collectors, no help against the Reapers.

Oh hi Saren. I thought you were dead. But as I said on Virmire, submission is not preferable to extinction. I'd rather die fighting.

And being butchered and liquified is not survival.

Surviving in any form is preferrable to extinction. Even if it is as a Reaper.
And becoming a Capital Reaper wouldn't be submission.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 mai 2012 - 09:50 .

[MisterJB]

Malanek999 wrote...
She was talking about the amount of energy released. Real world physics have already been broken many times over. I don't really want to get into a nerdrage discussion about how these things work (because they don't) but you originally made a claim you have no way of substantiating. If these alien machines can travel several time the speed of light through propulsion methods, there is nothing to say that the pulse from a destroyed machine, that was capable of propelling other objects many times fatser, should not also be faster.

A negative argument does not make a positive argument. FTL requires quite a bit of machinery to work.
Unless I am mistaken, I believe a Supernova explosion is the fastest known to man, correct? Thus, it is you who must prove that a Relay explosion can be faster.

It showed a pulse. I didn't say 0.5 times the speed of light, I said about 2000 times the speed of light.

Maybe it did. I don't recall.
Can you post a screenshot?

[Erield]

A0170 wrote...

Interesting tactics but isn't their a Reaper icon above the Salarian home system right before you start Priority: Earth? To me that suggests a sizable Reaper presence on Sur'Kesh. 

Rannoch is still free, and should be defended like you said. Kahje may be free as well, if you help out Bau and Kasumi. The game however doesn't reveal its ultimate fate so we can't be certain. If it is free, we could still use it as a military base until the Reapers eventually come. 

Meanwhile your point about creating a giant Migrant Fleet is certainly interesting. The logistical issues of having to feed and resupply such a large force while keeping it hidden from the Reapers would be a huge problem. Although I guess the galaxy is large enough for the fleet to hide for a while.

There's a difference between "sizable" and "OH **** RUN!!!!"  Maybe I should have read (re-read?) your link to the actual numbers of Reaper capital ships.  If there's thousands of Sovereign-class ships flying around, I really don't see any way to pull off a true victory--just a run 'n hide.  Hiding is possible; it was done on Ilos, it was done with the Crucible.  It may still be necessary to sacrifice a significant portion of the fleet in order to trick the Reapers into thinking we'd already given it our all.

[Tapkomet]

Possible ways:

1. FTL bombs - Geth and Quarian engineers must have something to bypass that stupid limitation.

2. If not, then remember: the Crucible is a dud, but the Reapers don't know this. Using it as a bait should give us an advantage. Well, that won't be ehough, but still a good thing.

When the Crucible is destroyed, disengage. Make the geth build as many glass cannons as they can. Meanwhile, keep the reaper forces occupied: take back Thessia and some colonies, harass their ships at Har'Shan, give resistance on Palaven more nukes etc. Use any help from Sur'Kesh, Dekuuna, Hanar homeworld, unoccupied colonies. Prepare and help the militaries there. (if there are still any. If not, liberate them).

Relay explosions may or may not be useful.

We may try looking for help behind dormant relays.

The important thing is to actually use some battle tactics other than "Flying directly into enemy's death rays and clogging them up with wreckage"

3. The previous plan is still very likely to fail. We need a failsafe or something.
I suggest that, when all hope is lost, we will build/find/save from the war some non-military ships. Liveships will be used. Figure out how many people we can get in, and fill the ships with useful tech. Divide this flotilla in 2 parts - levo and dextro. Set course for a suitable uncolonized planet each (Virmire, for example). Use not-FTL so that the travel takes a few weeks ship-time, but a thousand years galaxy-time. Then we will rise from ashes, millions strong, and hopefully do better next time. Avoid the Citadel like hell so that noone tells the vanguard we are there.

While our failsafe flotillas are running away, the military ships (at least most of them) will make a last stand somewhere (preferably near some relay, and blow it up somehow at the end of the battle. Maybe just above Sur'Kesh - doesn't matter), tricking the Reapers into thinking those are the last of the ships.

Modifié par Tapkomet, 10 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[Zix13]

Malanek999 wrote...

Retreat, then destroy the relay, sacrifice the sol system to destroy the reapers.

This, followed by making life miserable for the remaining reapers and slowly culling their numbers. 

[Erield]

MisterJB wrote...

Surviving in any form is preferrable to extinction. Even if it is as a Reaper.
And becoming a Capital Reaper wouldn't be submission.

No soul.  Replaced by tech.

[MisterJB]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...
Then we make damn sure all reapers are engaged and kill any that aren't.

In order to do that, we would have to sacrifice more than the bulk of our forces since the bulk of the Reapers orbit Earth which would leave us almost defenseless against the other Reapers that are all around the galaxy.
It would, pretty much, doom this cycle. Maybe you are willing to do it just to make it easy for the next one; that is assuming the Reapers won't just start harvesting civilizations a lot sooner, there is, after all, evidence in one planet that they harvested or destroyed a bronze-age civilization; but I seriously doubt anyone else would go along with the plan.

[Tapkomet]

Erield wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Surviving in any form is preferrable to extinction. Even if it is as a Reaper.
And becoming a Capital Reaper wouldn't be submission.

No soul.  Replaced by tech.

I'd rather jump from a great height. That would at least be exciting, unlike being turned into goo.

[A0170]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Wow, a lot of you seem willing to sacrifice Earth for the sake of victory. I don't blame you guys when considering the alternatives, hell I'd probably do the same thing if things got desperate enought. But still, would all of the Alliance forces sign off on that? What's to stop them from rebelling from your command?

Every other species in the galaxy abandoned their homeworlds to fight the Reapers at Earth, the Turians specifically were doing rather well considering but pulled back so they'd have enough left for earth. The Systems Alliance can damn well man up and make sacrifices. Humanity will survive. It will take decades or centuries to recover, but it's worth the price. That said, I think everyone knows what's at stake here. It is quite literally all or nothing. No one will like it, but they'll do what must be done.

Yes, but your forgetting that the Turians only came to Earth after the Krogans helped them turn the tide on Palaven. Remember, Victus said he wouldn't commit the Turian fleet to Earth unless the pressure is releaved on his homeworld. This implies that Palaven is first and foremost in the minds of the Turian leadership at the moment. Maybe in a later generation or two would they even consider sacrificing Palaven but with Victus in charge I just don't see it. 

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Kill him. I trust my squad, at the very least, to have my back.

I do too, but that still doesn't stop your allies from abandoning your cause or trying to assassinate you on a later occassion. Asking them to sacrifice their homeworlds for the cause would undoubtedly generate such a reaction. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have to do everything we can to win. I'm just asking how long we can cross the line before their convinced that you pose just a great of a threat to their species as the Reapers do, and therefore respond with what they feel is an appropiate response.

Modifié par A0170, 10 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[SNascimento]

Die fighting.
.
That is the only option if the Crucible doesn't work.

Modifié par SNascimento, 10 mai 2012 - 09:53 .