310 réponses à ce sujet

[A0170]

marstinson wrote...

I don't suppose that inviting the Reapers to an intergalactic kegger is viable.

Ha. The fate of the galaxy, settled by a beer pong match between Shep and Harby. 

[Deuterium_Dawn]

MisterJB wrote...
As soon as Reapers started descending on Pallaven, the Hierarchy gave up on a battle strategy that had felled a few Capital Reapers already to protect their homeworld. They may talk big, no species is willing to see their home burn.
And, even if they did, salarians, asari, quarians, krogan, none of them would destroy the Relay leading to their system.

Because the whole objective there was to defend Pallaven. They later pulled back from the fight so they would be able to help on Earth. Beyond this there's really nothing more to be said. I believe, though there will always be exceptions, that if it came down to it most people would be able to look beyond themselves and make the necessary sacrifice. You clearly do not.

Because I don't just have to open an history book to see what happens to once powerful nations after a war.

Provide some examples that actually apply. Nations rise and fall for many reasons.

Not to mention humans have been treated as second classe citizens ever since we appeared.
First Contact War, no help against the Geth, no help against the batarians, no help against the Collectors, no help against the Reapers.

FCW- Council put a stop to this, forced Turians to pay reparations. If you save the council, they actually pay further reparations due to better relations with humanity.  The Geth was just the Council dragging their feet as usual, they're bureaucrats. They also go straight back into denial about the Reapers after they themselves are nearly or their predecessors are killed. We didn't need help against the Batarians, they're now a rogue state in decline with no relations with Citadel races in any case. Or I should say they were before the Reapers exterminated them. As for the latter two, the Alliance itself took no action and was in denial about the Reaper threat along with everyone else so I don't see how that's evidence of anything.

Surviving in any form is preferrable to extinction. Even if it is as a Reaper.
And becoming a Capital Reaper wouldn't be submission.

Unless the other species just decide to finish what the Reapers started
to ensure the humans can never compete in the galactic stage again.
Personally, I couldn't care less about future cycles. My priority is ensuring humanity survives in some form.

I've grouped these staggering combinations of cynical self-interest and cowardice together. Those people are dead. They did not survive any more than what went into compost survived. Our mutilated genetic material being incorporated into a machine doesn't mean a damn thing to all the people who were murdered to build it. And yes, becoming any sort of reaper is submission to their agenda.  The future of all life is more important than any one species.

Erield wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Surviving in any form is preferrable to extinction. Even if it is as a Reaper.
And becoming a Capital Reaper wouldn't be submission.

No soul.  Replaced by tech.

This, a thousand times this.

MisterJB wrote...
In
order to do that, we would have to sacrifice more than the bulk of our
forces since the bulk of the Reapers orbit Earth which would leave us
almost defenseless against the other Reapers that are all around the
galaxy.
It would, pretty much, doom this cycle. Maybe you are willing
to do it just to make it easy for the next one; that is assuming the
Reapers won't just start harvesting civilizations a lot sooner, there
is, after all, evidence in one planet that they harvested or destroyed a
bronze-age civilization; but I seriously doubt anyone else would go
along with the plan.

We do not have to sacrifice the bulk of our forces to distract any Reapers who might otherwise be monitoring the relays. We've already essentially left ourselves defenseless against Reapers elsewhere, considering the entire galaxy's fleets are in Sol.

A0170 wrote...

Yes,
but your forgetting that the Turians only came to Earth after the
Krogans helped them turn the tide on Palaven. Remember, Victus said he
wouldn't commit the Turian fleet to Earth unless the pressure is
releaved on his homeworld. This implies that Palaven is first and
foremost in the minds of the Turian leadership at the moment. Maybe in a
later generation or two would they even consider sacrificing Palaven
but with Victus in charge I just don't see it. 

I haven't forgotten. After the initial invasion, the galaxy was divided, scattered, scared. There's no reason for Victus to abandon his homeworld solely to defend someone else's. We come up with a plan and we unite the galaxy behind that plan. I'm not talking about sacrificing Earth just to save Thessia or vice versa. I'm talking about sacrificing Earth as a last resort to save all life that will ever be born in the galaxy, or in the very worst case scenario, to weaken the Reapers as much as possible so that future cycles might have a chance.

I
do too, but that still doesn't stop your allies from abandoning your
cause or trying to assassinate you on a later occassion. Asking them to
sacrifice their homeworlds for the cause would undoubtedly generate such
a reaction. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have to do everything
we can to win. I'm just asking how long we can cross the line before
their convinced that you pose just a great of a threat to their species
as the Reapers do, and therefore respond with what they feel is an
appropiate response.

If they can't see that if we fail defeat the reapers their species is screwed anyway then there's no hope. Crucible or no Crucible you're still asking every race in the galaxy to abandon their homes to gamble on defeating the Reapers at Earth.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 11 mai 2012 - 12:38 .

[Reign Tsumiraki]

Reapers have consolidated power around Earth.

This means they have pulled Reaper forces out of other systems.

Use this fleet o' doom to clear out the other homeworlds and human colonies, gather resources. 

Galactic economy somewhat stabilizes, now that homeworlds and colonies are somewhat secure.

Use resources to research the power cores of Reapers, and shields.

Develop improves shields, similar to how the Thanix was produced.

Use Reaper IFF to bypass Reaper lockdown of Relays. 

Eventually Reapers begin to come out of Sol system. Post dreadnouts at the only relay connected to Sol. At least 20. This will snipe any incoming Reapers. 

Eventually, when fleets are ready, (I guess 5-7 years) retake Earth. 

[SoloPala]

Honestly, even if the galaxy lost against the reapers, the cycle would probably be broken, they'd have lost far too much, and the Yahg look like they'd dominate the next cycle and those guys are no joke.

[Bad King]

I'd appeal to the Terminus Systems' races/dictators (not just eclipse/BS/BP) and get as many of them as possible to join in the fight. Then I'd drop off some info caches at the Yahg homeworld so that if the fleets fail (which they almost certainly would) the Yahg have 50,000 years to prepare a galactic empire (unless they dismiss the reapers which is possible over such a length of time).

[MegaSovereign]

Destroying the relay in the Sol system would destroy a lot of reaper capital ships, including Harbinger.

While it's true that not all the reapers are in the Sol system, it would kill off a lot of the major ones. Plus you'd destroy the Citadel and the Catalyst...so that has to do something.

[NoUserNameHere]

The Reapers don't know that the Crucible is a dud yet, right?

So, clearly, the plan of attack would involve feigning an assault anyway. Find some way to booby trap the Crucible, or use to divert a large portion of Reaper forces and hit 'em where they're weak.

Also, nuclear mines. We need more of those at essential choke-points.

[Malanek]

SoloPala wrote...

Honestly, even if the galaxy lost against the reapers, the cycle would probably be broken, they'd have lost far too much, and the Yahg look like they'd dominate the next cycle and those guys are no joke.

The Yahg could be easily dealt with. They are still all (well almost all) confined to one planet with no way of getting off. 

[Deuterium_Dawn]

A0170 wrote...
Considering that Sur'Kesh is a council homeworld I'd argue that the Reaper force sent to attack it would be on par with the numbers they used to take Earth, Thessia, and Palaven. So at least maybe a few dozen? Thats a strong enough force for me to avoid sending my ships there.

And I did agree that hiding is possible, Ilos certainly does prove your point. That's why I like your suggestion of hiding, perhaps waiting out this cycle like the Protheans (led by Javik) try to do on Eden Prime. Except this time we'll be mobile instead of concentrated on one planet. 

On par with Thessia perhaps. The Systems Alliance and even moreso the Turian Hiearchy possessed a greater conventional military capacity.

And though I agree with trying to establish hidden outposts/colonies to wait out the Reapers, I'm wary of the galactic migrant fleet idea, mostly because I'm afraid that the Reapers would be able to track us through the relays and that even FTL "wakes" are easier to track than a colony that has "gone dark". The Protheans were betrayed by indoctrinated agents, that could happen to any plan we come up with.

Malanek999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Honestly,
even if the galaxy lost against the reapers, the cycle would probably
be broken, they'd have lost far too much, and the Yahg look like they'd
dominate the next cycle and those guys are no joke.

The Yahg could be easily dealt with. They are still all (well almost all) confined to one planet with no way of getting off. 

For now. If the Reapers win and don't destroy them in this cycle, the council will be gone the Yahg will expand likely to form a Prothean-esque empire. Whether that will be enough to defeat the Reapers I don't know. It didn't help the Protheans.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 11 mai 2012 - 12:50 .

[AzuraAngellus]

All this talk of destroying the Sol relay, I really don't think it would work for two reasons. First, how? The Reaper forces probably detected Sword the moment they jumped in, but only stuck around Earth to protect the Citadel. Once they realized they were hauling a freakin' asteroid to the relay, they'd send a fleet out. Or have one jump in from another system.
Second, destruction of the Sol relay would also destroy the Citadel- which controls the relays. No more Citadel, no more relay control. Basically the same thing as the endings, relays gone and the galaxy is in deeper than they were before. Now do they not only have no means of travel between systems, but the Reapers do. They effectively locked themselves down.

[MrAtomica]

Blow up the Citadel.

End the Catalyst, and it would be safe to assume that you would end the enslavement of the Reapers. Do that, and you have a whole new ballgame.

At worst, they would choose to continue hostilities. At which point, without leadership or communication, they would be weakened.

At best, they might just choose to disagree with the will of their former captor. Or destroy themselves out of horror at what they have become.

Even better, there might be a rift between the Reapers themselves over whether to extinguish us or not.

We seem to forget all too easily that Reapers are little more than billions of minds encapsulated in a metal shell. The only thing keeping those minds in consensus is the Catalyst.

[SoloPala]

Malanek999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Honestly, even if the galaxy lost against the reapers, the cycle would probably be broken, they'd have lost far too much, and the Yahg look like they'd dominate the next cycle and those guys are no joke.

The Yahg could be easily dealt with. They are still all (well almost all) confined to one planet with no way of getting off. 

If thousands of reapers are destroyed in this cycle, its extremely likely they wouldn't have the power to cleanse the galaxy, it took 300 years to cleanse the Protheans, now imagine doing that with a huge fraction of your power demolished.

[AzuraAngellus]

MrAtomica wrote...

Blow up the Citadel.

End the Catalyst, and it would be safe to assume that you would end the enslavement of the Reapers. Do that, and you have a whole new ballgame.

At worst, they would choose to continue hostilities. At which point, without leadership or communication, they would be weakened.

At best, they might just choose to disagree with the will of their former captor. Or destroy themselves out of horror at what they have become.

Even better, there might be a rift between the Reapers themselves over whether to extinguish us or not.

We seem to forget all too easily that Reapers are little more than billions of minds encapsulated in a metal shell. The only thing keeping those minds in consensus is the Catalyst.

Blowing up the Citadel with the target being the Catalyst would be meta-gaming. How do the fleets know about the Catalyst, or even its control of the Reapers?

[A0170]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Yes,
but your forgetting that the Turians only came to Earth after the
Krogans helped them turn the tide on Palaven. Remember, Victus said he
wouldn't commit the Turian fleet to Earth unless the pressure is
releaved on his homeworld. This implies that Palaven is first and
foremost in the minds of the Turian leadership at the moment. Maybe in a
later generation or two would they even consider sacrificing Palaven
but with Victus in charge I just don't see it. 

I haven't forgotten. After the initial invasion, the galaxy was divided, scattered, scared. There's no reason for Victus to abandon his homeworld solely to defend someone else's. We come up with a plan and we unite the galaxy behind that plan. I'm not talking about sacrificing Earth just to save Thessia or vice versa. I'm talking about sacrificing Earth as a last resort to save all life that will ever be born in the galaxy, or in the very worst case scenario, to weaken the Reapers as much as possible so that future cycles might have a chance.

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

A0170 wrote...
I do too, but that still doesn't stop your allies from abandoning your
cause or trying to assassinate you on a later occassion. Asking them to
sacrifice their homeworlds for the cause would undoubtedly generate such
a reaction. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have to do everything
we can to win. I'm just asking how long we can cross the line before
their convinced that you pose just a great of a threat to their species
as the Reapers do, and therefore respond with what they feel is an
appropiate response.

If they can't see that if we fail defeat the reapers their species is screwed anyway then there's no hope. Crucible or no Crucible you're still asking every race in the galaxy to abandon their homes to gamble on defeating the Reapers at Earth.

This is the ME leadership remember? My god, even with a full fledge Reaper invasion and the promise of the Crucible at the beginning of ME3, their representatives on the Council still refuse to help. Instead they prefered to look after their own territory when obivously a united effort was what we needed. And look at all the hoops we had to jump through just to get their cooperation. The Turians wanted Krogan support, the Krogan wanted a cure for the genophage, and the Salarians wanted you to sabotage it. The Asari wouldn't even join until later. And remember, they had the promise of the Crucible to lure them into participate. How long would those fragile alliances last when they realize we'd want them to commit their forces to a risky military offensive that would leave their homeworlds undefended? Again, I agree with you in that they'd have to do whatever was necessary in the end, but the stupidity of our allied leadership could destroy our chances if we ask them to risk too much.

[SoloPala]

Also, WTF are these races doing when the Batarians get annihilated, i know the Batarians removed themselves from council politics, but did none of them keep tabs on the Rogue state, or think that absolutely 0 word coming from their region was normal?

But noooooo the Reapers come out of Batarian space completely unnoticed, and the Alliance forgoes its Sun Tzu doctrine of "Attempt to defend everything, you defend nothing" and place their fleets all over the god damned place.

Modifié par SoloPala, 11 mai 2012 - 01:02 .

[AlexMBrennan]

destruction of the Sol relay would also destroy the Citadel- which controls the relays

Yes, let's all make up stuff to support our arguments. Much more fun this way.

Re OP: Destroy Earth - pull Arrival on the Charon relay, ram at FTL speed, whatever. The Reapers are after humanity for some reason, and the best thing we could hope for in that situation is to prevent the Reapers from harvesting humanity.

I maintain that the smart thing would have been to rig all relays to explode as soon as it had become apparent that this is a possibility because at the start of ME3, such a deterrent would have been the only solution (denying them the harvest and destroying the relay infrastructure would have made a head-on assault undesirable ). Conveniently, we get a prothean doomsday weapon 15min into the game to remedy this

[SoloPala]

Suicide anything with an FTL drive into a reaper, GG.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

A0170 wrote...

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Yes,
but your forgetting that the Turians only came to Earth after the
Krogans helped them turn the tide on Palaven. Remember, Victus said he
wouldn't commit the Turian fleet to Earth unless the pressure is
releaved on his homeworld. This implies that Palaven is first and
foremost in the minds of the Turian leadership at the moment. Maybe in a
later generation or two would they even consider sacrificing Palaven
but with Victus in charge I just don't see it. 

I haven't forgotten. After the initial invasion, the galaxy was divided, scattered, scared. There's no reason for Victus to abandon his homeworld solely to defend someone else's. We come up with a plan and we unite the galaxy behind that plan. I'm not talking about sacrificing Earth just to save Thessia or vice versa. I'm talking about sacrificing Earth as a last resort to save all life that will ever be born in the galaxy, or in the very worst case scenario, to weaken the Reapers as much as possible so that future cycles might have a chance.

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

A0170 wrote...
I do too, but that still doesn't stop your allies from abandoning your
cause or trying to assassinate you on a later occassion. Asking them to
sacrifice their homeworlds for the cause would undoubtedly generate such
a reaction. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we have to do everything
we can to win. I'm just asking how long we can cross the line before
their convinced that you pose just a great of a threat to their species
as the Reapers do, and therefore respond with what they feel is an
appropiate response.

If they can't see that if we fail defeat the reapers their species is screwed anyway then there's no hope. Crucible or no Crucible you're still asking every race in the galaxy to abandon their homes to gamble on defeating the Reapers at Earth.

This is the ME leadership remember? My god, even with a full fledge Reaper invasion and the promise of the Crucible at the beginning of ME3, their representatives on the Council still refuse to help. Instead they prefered to look after their own territory when obivously a united effort was what we needed. And look at all the hoops we had to jump through just to get their cooperation. The Turians wanted Krogan support, the Krogan wanted a cure for the genophage, and the Salarians wanted you to sabotage it. The Asari wouldn't even join until later. And remember, they had the promise of the Crucible to lure them into participate. How long would those fragile alliances last when they realize we'd want them to commit their forces to a risky military offensive that would leave their homeworlds undefended? Again, I agree with you in that they'd have to do whatever was necessary in the end, but the stupidity of our allied leadership could destroy our chances if we ask them to risk too much.

We have no choice. We risk it all or we lose by default. Also on a related note, I think Bioware really overdid the whole Reaper denial thing just so they could push their "no conventional victory". I get that politicians can be idiotic but they went way past the realms of the believable. This would be like trying to continue appeasement as Poland falls.

AlexMBrennan wrote...

destruction of the Sol relay would also destroy the Citadel- which controls the relays

Yes, let's all make up stuff to support our arguments. Much more fun this way.

What is it you claim he's making up? It's established in ME1 that the Citadel controls the relay network, and in Arrival that destroying a mass relay is equivalent to the destructive force of a supernova, essentially destroying the entire system. Why is it so hard to believe this would destroy the Citadel as well?

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 11 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[MrAtomica]

AzuraAngellus wrote...

Blowing up the Citadel with the target being the Catalyst would be meta-gaming. How do the fleets know about the Catalyst, or even its control of the Reapers?

True. I conveniently overlooked that....

Still, it would perhaps be appropriate as an alternative the three current options, in terms of the EC. Once we know that the Reapers have central leadership, we know that we can cut off the head of the snake, so to speak.

[AzuraAngellus]

SoloPala wrote...

Also, WTF are these races doing when the Batarians get annihilated, i know the Batarians removed themselves from council politics, but did none of them keep tabs on the Rogue state, or think that absolutely 0 word coming from their region was normal?

But noooooo the Reapers come out of Batarian space completely unnoticed, and the Alliance forgoes its Sun Tzu doctrine of "Attempt to defend everything, you defend nothing" and place their fleets all over the god damned place.

Unfortunately I don't think Sun Tzu predicted an enemy like the Reapers.. they were designed to where conventional tactics are impossible to implement against them. It was the Alliances' best choice, no one taught them how to fight Reapers.

[Elyiia]

Retreat out of the system, adapt antimatter to work with fighter ammunition. Pew pew pew.

Isn't there only one relay out of Sol? Booby trap the hell out it.

[AzuraAngellus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

destruction of the Sol relay would also destroy the Citadel- which controls the relays

Yes, let's all make up stuff to support our arguments. Much more fun this way.

Re OP: Destroy Earth - pull Arrival on the Charon relay, ram at FTL speed, whatever. The Reapers are after humanity for some reason, and the best thing we could hope for in that situation is to prevent the Reapers from harvesting humanity.

I maintain that the smart thing would have been to rig all relays to explode as soon as it had become apparent that this is a possibility because at the start of ME3, such a deterrent would have been the only solution (denying them the harvest and destroying the relay infrastructure would have made a head-on assault undesirable ). Conveniently, we get a prothean doomsday weapon 15min into the game to remedy this

Uh, what did I make up? 

[Deuterium_Dawn]

AzuraAngellus wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Also, WTF are these races doing when the Batarians get annihilated, i know the Batarians removed themselves from council politics, but did none of them keep tabs on the Rogue state, or think that absolutely 0 word coming from their region was normal?

But noooooo the Reapers come out of Batarian space completely unnoticed, and the Alliance forgoes its Sun Tzu doctrine of "Attempt to defend everything, you defend nothing" and place their fleets all over the god damned place.

Unfortunately I don't think Sun Tzu predicted an enemy like the Reapers.. they were designed to where conventional tactics are impossible to implement against them. It was the Alliances' best choice, no one taught them how to fight Reapers.

Sun Tzu didn't write about tactics he wrote about the nature of war. It's still idiotic to spread your fleets all over the place, especially against a superior foe when you know where your enemy is coming from.

[SoloPala]

AzuraAngellus wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Also, WTF are these races doing when the Batarians get annihilated, i know the Batarians removed themselves from council politics, but did none of them keep tabs on the Rogue state, or think that absolutely 0 word coming from their region was normal?

But noooooo the Reapers come out of Batarian space completely unnoticed, and the Alliance forgoes its Sun Tzu doctrine of "Attempt to defend everything, you defend nothing" and place their fleets all over the god damned place.

Unfortunately I don't think Sun Tzu predicted an enemy like the Reapers.. they were designed to where conventional tactics are impossible to implement against them. It was the Alliances' best choice, no one taught them how to fight Reapers.

Thats the problem though, they didn't even listen to their own Military doctrine, which is put everything you got in 1 spot, scout to make sure you know where they are at all times, its exactly what the Turians did and they held the line, on top of thats not even what the Turians are about, their doctrine puts them in a slug out drag out brawl most of the time.

[Malanek]

SoloPala wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

SoloPala wrote...

Honestly, even if the galaxy lost against the reapers, the cycle would probably be broken, they'd have lost far too much, and the Yahg look like they'd dominate the next cycle and those guys are no joke.

The Yahg could be easily dealt with. They are still all (well almost all) confined to one planet with no way of getting off. 

If thousands of reapers are destroyed in this cycle, its extremely likely they wouldn't have the power to cleanse the galaxy, it took 300 years to cleanse the Protheans, now imagine doing that with a huge fraction of your power demolished.

You said "even if the galaxy lost against the reapers" and so I replied under that assumption. The Yahg could be dealt with easily. A single council ship could bombard the planet let alone a reaper. There is nothing to say they have to wait another 50,000 years for the yahg to advance. They would look at their rate of technological advancement and work out whether it was a problem or not. At the moment it is certainly a no.