310 réponses à ce sujet

[A0170]

thesnake777 wrote...

A0170 wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

Id call for a war of attrition. With the entire galaxy united every reaper that is killed will not be replaced. While if we militarize the entire galaxy forcing them to pump out ground forces and as many ships as we can it is possible. Will that ensure victory? No. However the main thing that the reapers had going for them was their surprise attack which usually took out the command structure and the mass relays effectively crippling the entire galaxy. This is no longer the case. The reapers are strong but without their ace they can be beaten. If not beaten they can be severely crippled so that the next cycle will crush them.

Well first things first we'd have to hit the Citadel and take it out before they finally use it to shut down the relays. If we don't, they could regain their ace and we'd end up like all the other cycles. Some people suggested that we could maybe get the Conduit on Ilos up and running so that we could send in strike team to take it out from the inside. If that doesn't work, than we'd have to launch the massive attack on Earth, or blow up the Sol Relay to take out the Citadel and the Reaper defenses. 

That being said, we don't know how effective destroying the relay would be. A lot of people are suggesting that the Reapers could simply FTL away before they get hit in the blast wave. The Citadel however would probably still get destroyed, but then we'd lose Earth too. Launching the massive assault on Earth is risky meanwhile, as we'd presumably suffer incredibly high losses. 

Blowing up the Sol relay would be a risk, It may be possible for the Reapers to retreat, what could work is sacrifcing troops to occupy the Reapers while another team takes out the sol Realy. this could hurt the reapers. However beyond doing this I think the best bet would be to pull out the majority of the troops and look at earth as a lost cause. For a convental victory earth has to be sacrifced. Even if blowing the sol raly only takes out 20% of reaper forces it is still a major victory, I would think that a few fleets would be lost in such a plan. That is acceptable. With earth destroyed there is nothing for the reapers to huskify either. they will have to turn thir attention elsewhere. Then the remaining forces can use guerrilla tactics against them. Doing runs on isolated reapers.  

Ah very good point. If need be I'd sacrifice Earth too, potentially blowing up the Citadel and removing it from Reaper control would be an important enough cause to justify such a huge sacrifice. However, we don't know if the relay explosion would take out 90-100% or less than 10% of the Reaper forces around Earth. Hopefully its a good chunk, but we just can't be sure for certain. Either way, most of the galaxy is still occupied.

Yes, that means that the Reapers are spread out. But that also means that we'd have to spread ourselves thin trying to fight them as well. If we for example forgo the relay destruction plan and consolidate our forces for a large attack on Earth for example, we'd still have to leave some ships behind to defend our vital supply bases and resource centers right? Without those supplies, our war effort will grind to a halt. Losses on Earth will presumably be high. Now, to make sure that the Reapers don't come back and retake Earth, we'd have to further commit more ships to defending Earth along with our other supply centers. Coupled with the losses we sustained from battle, our forces will begin to be stretched a little thin. Now what then if we decide to retake Thessia? If we could somehow pull of a victory and return Thessia to Allied control, our forces would be stretched even thinner. Why? Consider the losses that we would take during the retaking of Thessia. Plus we'd have to defend it now along with Earth and our other bases. Plus now that our lines are spread so thin, the Reapers can always counterattack and retake Earth or Thessia. Sooner or later we'll run out of ships to adequately defend all of our gains and to launch offensives at the same time.

Modifié par A0170, 26 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[Coachdongwiffle]

I've read most of these post and there is one Idea i haven't seen...BF GUNS. pick a few habitable planets that are already secured. I.E. Tuchanka Rannoch Sur Kesh maybe and build huge guns planet side. the weapon that destroyed that Reaper in ME2 perhaps. any ground turrets are effective because Reapers have to evert there shields so they can lower there mass when landing on a planet so there vulnerable and if with big Thanix Cannons blasting at them while they try to land we can cause some serious damage. I think it's useless to try and fight them out in space they pretty strong and our armies suck something else....also one last note...the sucide bombers codex entry you know about ships traveling at FTL and slamming into Reapers...lets do that. it says ships are hardwired not to go FTL if something is in there way....yeah well go into your ships programming and change that. Send some Fighters at FTL and we can cause more damage. Reading the Codex makes Reapers seem more vulnerable. the truth is apparently we don't have much of a chance because it apparently took a malfunction by Sovereign so we can defeat just him. But if there so indestructible why bother with the Citadel as a trap thing in the first place.

[tekkaman fear]

I thought most the avail resources went into the Crucible. I seem to remember the Alliance was unable to find platinum for the Crucible until the Shadow broker stepped in.Not really sure how plausible giant planetary guns would be.

Modifié par tekkaman fear, 26 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[thesnake777]

A0170 wrote...



Ah very good point. If need be I'd sacrifice Earth too, potentially blowing up the Citadel and removing it from Reaper control would be an important enough cause to justify such a huge sacrifice. However, we don't know if the relay explosion would take out 90-100% or less than 10% of the Reaper forces around Earth. Hopefully its a good chunk, but we just can't be sure for certain. Either way, most of the galaxy is still occupied.

Yes, that means that the Reapers are spread out. But that also means that we'd have to spread ourselves thin trying to fight them as well. If we for example forgo the relay destruction plan and consolidate our forces for a large attack on Earth for example, we'd still have to leave some ships behind to defend our vital supply bases and resource centers right? Without those supplies, our war effort will grind to a halt. Losses on Earth will presumably be high. Now, to make sure that the Reapers don't come back and retake Earth, we'd have to further commit more ships to defending Earth along with our other supply centers. Coupled with the losses we sustained from battle, our forces will begin to be stretched a little thin. Now what then if we decide to retake Thessia? If we could somehow pull of a victory and return Thessia to Allied control, our forces would be stretched even thinner. Why? Consider the losses that we would take during the retaking of Thessia. Plus we'd have to defend it now along with Earth and our other bases. Plus now that our lines are spread so thin, the Reapers can always counterattack and retake Earth or Thessia. Sooner or later we'll run out of ships to adequately defend all of our gains and to launch offensives at the same time.

Very true, we would be spread out, and in the long run the main concern our forces would have ,is replenshing our ranks. As for retaking and holding land. This may not be possible depnding on how exactly the war is going. Lets say we blow the Sol relay and it only takes out 10% of reaper forces and we loss 2 fleets in that operation. We no longer need to concern ourselves with defending earth, or retaking it.

This war would be brutal and it would mean taking a "Scortched earth" approch to the whole thing. The reapers need to harvest populations to replensh their ranks. If we make it so that we defend a planet they have selected for harvesting untill we can no longer defend and then blow the relay in that system, we may or may not damage The Reaper's forces, but we will destroy the planet they selected for harvesting. Which means they cannot replensh there ranks. That is how we win the war. Through sacrifice.  

If we keep our factories spread out, in undisclosed locations, this would give us an advantage. No one attack from the reapers could cripple our forces, and I find it unlikly that they would attempt to blow the Relays themselves because they are so importent to the cycles. 

Now all this might be in vain and as I said total victory in the way people think of may not be possible. But if our forces can devestate the Reaper's numbers, as well as the relay network, even if organic life is wiped out in this cycle, The cycle itself will be broken. 

Modifié par thesnake777, 26 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[A0170]

thesnake777 wrote...

A0170 wrote...



Ah very good point. If need be I'd sacrifice Earth too, potentially blowing up the Citadel and removing it from Reaper control would be an important enough cause to justify such a huge sacrifice. However, we don't know if the relay explosion would take out 90-100% or less than 10% of the Reaper forces around Earth. Hopefully its a good chunk, but we just can't be sure for certain. Either way, most of the galaxy is still occupied.

Yes, that means that the Reapers are spread out. But that also means that we'd have to spread ourselves thin trying to fight them as well. If we for example forgo the relay destruction plan and consolidate our forces for a large attack on Earth for example, we'd still have to leave some ships behind to defend our vital supply bases and resource centers right? Without those supplies, our war effort will grind to a halt. Losses on Earth will presumably be high. Now, to make sure that the Reapers don't come back and retake Earth, we'd have to further commit more ships to defending Earth along with our other supply centers. Coupled with the losses we sustained from battle, our forces will begin to be stretched a little thin. Now what then if we decide to retake Thessia? If we could somehow pull of a victory and return Thessia to Allied control, our forces would be stretched even thinner. Why? Consider the losses that we would take during the retaking of Thessia. Plus we'd have to defend it now along with Earth and our other bases. Plus now that our lines are spread so thin, the Reapers can always counterattack and retake Earth or Thessia. Sooner or later we'll run out of ships to adequately defend all of our gains and to launch offensives at the same time.

Very true, we would be spread out and in the long run the main concern our forces would have is replenshing our ranks. As for retaking and holding land. This may not be possible depnding on how exactly the war is going. Lets say we blow the Sol relay and it only takes out 10% of reaper forces and we loss 2 fleets in that operation. we no longer need to concerne ourselves with defnending earth, or about ever retaking it.

This war would be brutal and it would mean taking a "Scortched earth" approch to the whole thing. The reapers need to harvest populations to replensh their ranks. If we make it so that we defend a planet they have selected for harvesting untill we can no longer defend and then blow the relay in that system we may or may not damange reaper forced, but we will destroy the planet they looked to for harvesting. which means they cannot replensh there ranks. That is how we win the war. 

If we keep our factories spread out in undisclosed locations this is a plus for us. no one attack from the reapers could cripple our forces and I find it unlikly that they would attempt to blow the Relays themselves because they are so importent to the Reaper cycles. 

Now all this might be in vain and as I said total victory in the way people think of may not be possible. But if our forced can devestate the reaper numbers as well as the Realay network even if organic life is wiped out the cycle will be broken for the next cycle. 

But didn't the Protheans try the same thing? Sacrificing whole worlds to try and stop the Reapers? Destroying these planets through relay detonations would undoubtedly cause the morale of our forces to plummet and sow dissent among the ranks, especially those who have loved ones lving on the planets we just burned. I know, its war and war is brutal, but not everyone will commit to what needs to be done to win. That's why I can see "scorched earth" tactics initially leading to the potential breakdown of our alliance and even some infighting to prevent the destruction of their worlds. Plus, even if we hid our factories in undisclosed locations, there'd still be massive ship traffic to deliver those supplies to the front lines. Considering how long the Reapers take to harvest a cycle, they'll find these factories sooner or later. Also, "Scorched earth" tactics will leave us with less potential supply bases for us as well. Simply put, the Reapers can just deny us the resources we need.

However, I ultimately believe you are right in saying that this is how we must fight. Again, I don't think we can win this way during our cycle, but I absolutely agree that with your tactics, we can give them a run for their money. So long if we bunker down and hide some of our people until the next cycle, we'd certainly be able to come back with avengeance and win that conventional victory later on.

Modifié par A0170, 26 mai 2012 - 05:30 .

[Deathcall]

Conventional warfare, or "slugging it out", will most likely fail and bring about the doom of our cycle.

Even our best estimates put the reaper armada at a 1/1 ratio. Considering their strategic, tactical and technological superiority, trying to go toe to toe with them is outright madness.

While it could be initially considered a sound idea, the ark colony plan (or colonies) is beset by several problems. First and foremost, their construction would have to be kept entirely secret and be done in planets which the reapers are likely to bypass or not pay much attetion to, otherwise, they are bound to be found with scanners. We must remember that we are facing an enemy one or more billion years old. Every tactic which we can think about has most likely been tried in the past. Also, power failures, such as the one suffered by the Ilos protheans, sleeper agents, like the ones who sabotaged Javik's army, and other dangers make the "rentability" of this venture highly risky.

In the past I suggested a similar concept to the Migrant Fleet. Still, even the entire quarian armada can only house about ten million humanoids. Retrofitting ships to this purpose would bear high costs and time, and it won't allow for the survival of a significant percentage of each population we attempt to save.

Attacking the reapers with WMDs (asteroids, mass relay explosions, high-yield explosives) all have significant consequences. Asteroids, for example, are not that easy to come by, and even harder to put into motion. Hitting a reaper ship with one would be nigh impossible, and using it on their ground forces could bring about cataclysmical effects on the celestial body they fall to. Mass Relay explosions, on the other hand, could theoritically wipe out an entire system. We need to establish if it's possible to flee the explosion. Even if it isn't, destroying a mass relay in any home system would imply the death of a huge percentage of the overall population to whom it belongs to. Say we could bear with that, home systems are where the highest concentrations of reapers are seen, destroying the relays there could wipe a huge number of them, but you'd also be wiping out access to much needed resources. Even if you could rely on colonies, this would bring about a logistical problem that would be really hard to solve. Food, fuel, ammunition, shipyards to make repairs, housing for the refugees, all these things must be taken into consideration. Also, morale would take a huge hit. Supposing you could overcome all of that, the reapers won't fall for this trick more than once, and that's even supposing that they don't shut us out of the relay network.

Simply put, our enemy's space combat capabilities and overall superiority make any fleet engagements bound to failure. Negating their advantages is the only way to dent their forces without losing a number of our own that would make the outcome phyrric. Once "air" superiorty is obtained, we can deal with their ground forces. However numerous they may be, they can't possibly outnumber our own armies, and from experience, we can say that they aren't as formidable a foe as their spacefaring counterparts.

Easier said than done, I know. But I have a plan.

The Citadel is the only asset that truly matters in this war. Letting the Reapers control it is asking to get shut off the relay network. If that comes to happen, any chance of mounting a successful counter-offensive is lost. It's up to the eggheads to figure out if destroying the citadel will make the entire relay network collapse. For now, we can't risk that outcome, but we can't risk the reapers having control of it either.

Give me as many ships with stealth capabilities as you can. I'll pump them full of my best men and have them assault the citadel. There must be a way to board it, even with the arms closed. And if there isn't, we'll just blow one open. Once their loads are in, the ships will retreat to safety. Our forces WILL take control of the Citadel and move it to the mass relay in the sol system. Once there, they'll use the Citadel itself to jump the Mass Relay to the next point in the network, following it soon after. This way, we'll strand all the reaper forces in the sol system, negating our enemy a huge portion of their armada.

With the Citadel under our control once more, we'll put all the resources we had on the Crucible to work at figuring out how the relay network works. With their first objective being a complete map of every relay in the galaxy, we don't want the reapers on Earth using a backdoor to escape. While the whitecoats work on that, we'll engange reapers where they are the weakest and evaluate the possibilty of repeating the tactic we used on the Sol system to further aisoltate chunks their fleet.

If this tactic is successful, we actually stand a chance against the reapers. Considerable losses will be suffered by those we leave behind, and we'll still have to deal with the sizeable fleet we left at earth eventually, but at least it'll be on our terms.

[thesnake777]

A0170 wrote...


But didn't the Protheans try the same thing? Sacrificing whole worlds to try and stop the Reapers? Destroying these planets through relay detonations would undoubtedly cause the morale of our forces to plummet and sow dissent among the ranks, especially those who have loved ones lving on the planets we just burned. I know, its war and war is brutal, but not everyone will commit to what needs to be done to win. That's why I can see "scorched earth" tactics initially leading to the potential breakdown of our alliance and even some infighting to prevent the destruction of their worlds. Plus, even if we hid our factories in undisclosed locations, there'd still be massive ship traffic to deliver those supplies to the front lines. Considering how long the Reapers take to harvest a cycle, they'll find these factories sooner or later. Also, "Scorched earth" tactics will also leave us with less potential supply bases for us as well. Simply put, the Reapers can simply just deny us the resources we need.

However, I ultimately believe you are right in saying that this is how we must fight. Again, I don't think we can win this way during our cycle, but I absolutely agree that with your tactics, we can give them a run for their money. So long if we bunker down and hide some of our people until the next cycle, we'd certainly be able to come back with avengeance and win that conventional victory later on.

The protheans did use similar tactics, but this cycle is special. We still have our command structure and communications in place, as well as having access to the relay network. The protheans lost there entire comand structure, and were effecativly cut off from each other. The Reapers could simply take there time and attack any system they saw fit and never needed to worry about them mounting a serious attack against them. 

You are right though, I do bealive that there will be resistance to the idea of these tatics, what im suggesting is sacrficing populations. I see no other alternative though. We would also have to militirize the galaxys population. Possibly useing a program along the lines of what cerberus did. As for the factories if they find one, they find one. thats to be expected. They cant cripple us by taking out one. Mobility is our greatest asset in this cycle. being able to funnel troops through the Relays to combat the Reaper where ever the front moves to is somehting the reapers are not use to. The Reapers are not real tacticains, they do frontal assualts and put faith in there numbers to win beacue normally, during all previous cycles that system cannot mount a serious counterattack, and they never had to worry about reinforcments coming from other systems because of the communications black out. Hiding populations for the next cycle would be our ace in the hole. If we had the time to back engineer the protheans tech and improve on it, that would be a viable option.

[A0170]

Deathcall wrote...

Conventional warfare, or "slugging it out", will most likely fail and bring about the doom of our cycle.

Even our best estimates put the reaper armada at a 1/1 ratio. Considering their strategic, tactical and technological superiority, trying to go toe to toe with them is outright madness.

While it could be initially considered a sound idea, the ark colony plan (or colonies) is beset by several problems. First and foremost, their construction would have to be kept entirely secret and be done in planets which the reapers are likely to bypass or not pay much attetion to, otherwise, they are bound to be found with scanners. We must remember that we are facing an enemy one or more billion years old. Every tactic which we can think about has most likely been tried in the past. Also, power failures, such as the one suffered by the Ilos protheans, sleeper agents, like the ones who sabotaged Javik's army, and other dangers make the "rentability" of this venture highly risky.

In the past I suggested a similar concept to the Migrant Fleet. Still, even the entire quarian armada can only house about ten million humanoids. Retrofitting ships to this purpose would bear high costs and time, and it won't allow for the survival of a significant percentage of each population we attempt to save.

Attacking the reapers with WMDs (asteroids, mass relay explosions, high-yield explosives) all have significant consequences. Asteroids, for example, are not that easy to come by, and even harder to put into motion. Hitting a reaper ship with one would be nigh impossible, and using it on their ground forces could bring about cataclysmical effects on the celestial body they fall to. Mass Relay explosions, on the other hand, could theoritically wipe out an entire system. We need to establish if it's possible to flee the explosion. Even if it isn't, destroying a mass relay in any home system would imply the death of a huge percentage of the overall population to whom it belongs to. Say we could bear with that, home systems are where the highest concentrations of reapers are seen, destroying the relays there could wipe a huge number of them, but you'd also be wiping out access to much needed resources. Even if you could rely on colonies, this would bring about a logistical problem that would be really hard to solve. Food, fuel, ammunition, shipyards to make repairs, housing for the refugees, all these things must be taken into consideration. Also, morale would take a huge hit. Supposing you could overcome all of that, the reapers won't fall for this trick more than once, and that's even supposing that they don't shut us out of the relay network.

Simply put, our enemy's space combat capabilities and overall superiority make any fleet engagements bound to failure. Negating their advantages is the only way to dent their forces without losing a number of our own that would make the outcome phyrric. Once "air" superiorty is obtained, we can deal with their ground forces. However numerous they may be, they can't possibly outnumber our own armies, and from experience, we can say that they aren't as formidable a foe as their spacefaring counterparts.

Easier said than done, I know. But I have a plan.

The Citadel is the only asset that truly matters in this war. Letting the Reapers control it is asking to get shut off the relay network. If that comes to happen, any chance of mounting a successful counter-offensive is lost. It's up to the eggheads to figure out if destroying the citadel will make the entire relay network collapse. For now, we can't risk that outcome, but we can't risk the reapers having control of it either.

Give me as many ships with stealth capabilities as you can. I'll pump them full of my best men and have them assault the citadel. There must be a way to board it, even with the arms closed. And if there isn't, we'll just blow one open. Once their loads are in, the ships will retreat to safety. Our forces WILL take control of the Citadel and move it to the mass relay in the sol system. Once there, they'll use the Citadel itself to jump the Mass Relay to the next point in the network, following it soon after. This way, we'll strand all the reaper forces in the sol system, negating our enemy a huge portion of their armada.

With the Citadel under our control once more, we'll put all the resources we had on the Crucible to work at figuring out how the relay network works. With their first objective being a complete map of every relay in the galaxy, we don't want the reapers on Earth using a backdoor to escape. While the whitecoats work on that, we'll engange reapers where they are the weakest and evaluate the possibilty of repeating the tactic we used on the Sol system to further aisoltate chunks their fleet.

If this tactic is successful, we actually stand a chance against the reapers. Considerable losses will be suffered by those we leave behind, and we'll still have to deal with the sizeable fleet we left at earth eventually, but at least it'll be on our terms.

Excellent post. The "ark" idea is indeed risky, but it's the best contingency plan that I know of. We have to ensure the survival of our species somehow, while also giving us the chance at rebuilding and having around 50,000 years to prepare for the next Reaper invasion. However you are right about how extremely difficult it would be to keep these planets hidden from the Reapers. Somehow, we were able to keep the massive consruction of the Crucible hidden. But, then again the Crucible was built in the vast expanse of space instead of the rare and precious unknown garden world that you pointed out. So maybe it doesn't need to be a garden world? Maybe all you need is a not so desolate, seemingly useless chunk of rock. The facility of course would be hidden underground and equipped to handle life support.

But like you mentioned, maintaining enough energy to power such a large facility while ensuring a large enough oxygen supply would be incredibly difficult. Plus our stasis pod tech is nowhere near as advanced as the Protheans. I really don't know how we could solve this issue. But despite all these issues I'd still say its worth a shot. If all our other plans fail, the "ark" plan still gives us an albeit slim chance to ensure our survival.

Meanwhile I really like your idea about seizing control of the Citadel to strand the Reapers in Sol. It made me also think of how the Salarians allegedly developed "stealth dreadnoughts", which would definitely help in that kind of attack. I'd personally love to see those babies in action.

Modifié par A0170, 26 mai 2012 - 05:48 .

[Deathcall]

The Citadel is the key. Without it, everything is lost.

Take back the Citadel.

Take back our hope.

[A0170]

thesnake777 wrote...

A0170 wrote...


But didn't the Protheans try the same thing? Sacrificing whole worlds to try and stop the Reapers? Destroying these planets through relay detonations would undoubtedly cause the morale of our forces to plummet and sow dissent among the ranks, especially those who have loved ones lving on the planets we just burned. I know, its war and war is brutal, but not everyone will commit to what needs to be done to win. That's why I can see "scorched earth" tactics initially leading to the potential breakdown of our alliance and even some infighting to prevent the destruction of their worlds. Plus, even if we hid our factories in undisclosed locations, there'd still be massive ship traffic to deliver those supplies to the front lines. Considering how long the Reapers take to harvest a cycle, they'll find these factories sooner or later. Also, "Scorched earth" tactics will also leave us with less potential supply bases for us as well. Simply put, the Reapers can simply just deny us the resources we need.

However, I ultimately believe you are right in saying that this is how we must fight. Again, I don't think we can win this way during our cycle, but I absolutely agree that with your tactics, we can give them a run for their money. So long if we bunker down and hide some of our people until the next cycle, we'd certainly be able to come back with avengeance and win that conventional victory later on.

The protheans did use similar tactics, but this cycle is special. We still have our command structure and communications in place, as well as having access to the relay network. The protheans lost there entire comand structure, and were effecativly cut off from each other. The Reapers could simply take there time and attack any system they saw fit and never needed to worry about them mounting a serious attack against them. 

You are right though, I do bealive that there will be resistance to the idea of these tatics, what im suggesting is sacrficing populations. I see no other alternative though. We would also have to militirize the galaxys population. Possibly useing a program along the lines of what cerberus did. As for the factories if they find one, they find one. thats to be expected. They cant cripple us by taking out one. Mobility is our greatest asset in this cycle. being able to funnel troops through the Relays to combat the Reaper where ever the front moves to is somehting the reapers are not use to. The Reapers are not real tacticains, they do frontal assualts and put faith in there numbers to win beacue normally, during all previous cycles that system cannot mount a serious counterattack, and they never had to worry about reinforcments coming from other systems because of the communications black out. Hiding populations for the next cycle would be our ace in the hole. If we had the time to back engineer the protheans tech and improve on it, that would be a viable option.

But we can only be mobile for so long. Again the issue resources of pop up. Losing one factory would mean that we would have to build another or increase the output from the ones that we already have. Either way, because the likelihood that the Reapers will find these factories, will eventually run out of the capabilities of building new ones. After all, from what we know it takes the Reapers hundreds of years to fully wipe out an entire cycle. Taking into account the massive battle losses that our fleets will continue to suffer, plus the loss of our factories and shipyards that would prevent us from replenishing our ship numbers, being able to keep the war effort mobile will become harder and harder as the war drags on. 

Also didn't you suggest that we blow up the relays to deny the Reapers access to population centers? It would work in that sense, but the collateral damage would be catastrophic. Entire systems, like the ones that are rich in minerals, would be wiped out, meaning that we can't access them. Also, the death toll would be undoubtedly staggering, denying us valuable manpower while simultaneously ruining the morale of our collective forces. Why should they commit to serve under us if we're just going to blow up what they're fighting for? Sure, we can tell them that we can just rebuild and that these tactics are necessary to ensure our survival but how many of our troops and allies will abandon our cause because of our ruthlessness? Eventually our allied effort will crumble, leaving our forces divided and left in prime position to be picked off by the Reapers. 

I do agree that the Reapers are portrayed as complete idiots in this game. Tacticians they are certainly not.

Modifié par A0170, 26 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[Applepie_Svk]

I said that maybe dozen of times - why is Relay network still working, well it´s more just speculation but it make a sense - it is in conflict with presence of Catalyst - that means it support IT:

- Keepers were those who maintance the Citadel and running whole system, without them the Reapers are unable to manage control over Citadel.
That was reason why Sovereign was looking for allies like a geth and Saren which could provide him help with getting to Citadel same as help with finding what happened with the Keepers.

So when Protheans planted on whole Citadel signal jammers which interupted Reaper´s control signal the Reapers cannot launch their invasion as was planned - I guess the first reason of why we have even Sovereign here was a discovery of Leviathan of Dis - which was looking for explanation from Citadel´s systems but the Keepers weren´t respond.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 26 mai 2012 - 06:10 .

[A0170]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

I said that maybe dozen of times - why is Relay network still working, well it´s more just speculation but it make a sense - it is in conflict with presence of Catalyst - that means it support IT:

- Keepers were those who maintance the Citadel and running whole system, without them the Reapers are unable to manage control over Citadel.
That was reason why Sovereign was looking for allies like a geth and Saren which could provide him help with getting to Citadel same as help with finding what happened with the Keepers.

So when Protheans planted on whole Citadel signal jammers which interupted Reaper´s control signal the Reapers cannot launch their invasion as was planned - I guess the first reason of why we have even Sovereign here was a discovery of Leviathan of Dis - which was looking for explanation from Citadel´s systems but the Keepers weren´t respond.

Yes but someone pointed this out to me earlier. Remember during ME1 where you have your final conversation with Saren, right before the Alliance fleet jumps in? Well Joker tells you that before they can join the battle, Shepard must unlock the relay network after Saren had closed it, implying that whatever the Reapers used to control the relay network was fine. So why didn't the Reapers just shut down the network when they retook the Citadel? Why didn't they just retake the Citadel first? And why after all those years, did the Council just ignore the fact that a control panel that can shutdown the relay network is standing right in front of them? 

Modifié par A0170, 26 mai 2012 - 06:19 .

[thesnake777]

A0170 wrote...


But we can only be mobile for so long. Again the issue resources of pop up. Losing one factory would mean that we would have to build another or increase the output from the ones that we already have. Either way, because the likelihood that the Reapers will find these factories, will eventually run out of the capabilities of building new ones. After all, from what we know it takes the Reapers hundreds of years to fully wipe out an entire cycle. Taking into account the massive battle losses that our fleets will continue to suffer, plus the loss of our factories and shipyards that would prevent us from replenishing our ship numbers, being able to keep the war effort mobile will become harder and harder as the war drags on. 

Also didn't you suggest that we blow up the relays to deny the Reapers access to population centers? It would work in that sense, but the collateral damage would be catastrophic. Entire systems, like the ones that are rich in minerals, would be wiped out, meaning that we can't access them. Also, the death toll would be undoubtedly staggering, denying us valuable manpower while simultaneously ruining the morale of our collective forces. Why should they commit to serve under us if we're just going to blow up what they're fighting for? Sure, we can tell them that we can just rebuild and that these tactics are necessary to ensure our survival but how many of our troops and allies will abandon our cause because of our ruthlessness? Eventually our allied effort will crumble, leaving our forces divided and left in prime position to be picked off by the Reapers. 

I do agree that the Reapers are portrayed as complete idiots in this game. Tacticians they are certainly not.

Oh of course we will eventaully run out of the abilitity to replenesh our ranks but it wont happen at first. alot of the issues that will arrise during this war depends on how succesfull our attacks are against them. If we are nothurthing them at all then evenutally our warmachine will grind to a halt and they will pick us apart without a problem. 

The bombing of the relays as I suggest do bring up a few issues. As you have pointed out the effect on morale would be devestating. However the damage from this can be stemmed with propaganda to downplay the losses, instead of stateing how many civilains were lost, "we wiped out so and so many reapers and the galant people who sacrifced their lives for this have brought us a step closer to victory"..etc..
Truth be told resorces are the main issue in this war. By destroyng the systems that the Reapers pick for harvesting we are hurting our selves, however many people we werent able to get out as well as loseing minerials we need for ships etc. but we stop the reapers from being able to replensh their ranks. So while we can still replensh our own ranks they cannot. So it comes down to a matter of numbers, if we are hurting the reapers we can take the damange to our populations, if what we are doing is not effective we will lose and there is nothing that can be done.
 
 

[Applepie_Svk]

A0170 wrote...

Yes but someone pointed this out to me earlier. Remember during ME1 where you have your final conversation with Saren, right before the Alliance fleet jumps in? Well Joker tells you that before they can join the battle, Shepard must unlock the relay network after Saren had closed it, implying that whatever the Reapers used to control the relay network was fine. So why didn't the Reapers just shut down the network when they retook the Citadel? Why didn't they just retake the Citadel first? And why after all those years, did the Council just ignore the fact that a control panel that can shutdown the relay network is standing right in front of them? 

They probably need technical - inteligent life, like a Keepers they are using whole time controls of Citadel which means that they are very important with controling the Citadel, as we could see that Reapers are using each species for their best purpose - I mean that they probably used species which husks are Keepers for their size,technic skills etc etc...or idnoctrination just leave the most important thing which husk need to know.
Husk - just a decoys
Canibals - shock troop
Marauders - mobile support and command
Brutes - tanks
Banshe - biotic charge
Ranchni - artilery
Harvesters - transport

Keepers - probably tech experts which handling little stuff around Citadel

Without Keepers Sovereign was looking for someone else - I guess not every kind of husk can manage something like that - imagine how it looks when Canibal or Husk could try to manipulate with control console...

And about that Control:
They could study that but who knows - they were affraid of manipulation with Citadel or maybe they cannot find a true purpose or proper combination for using the Citadel and all of her functions. For example for opening a new relay network we don´t want Citadel - it was reason of two wars - Rachni and First contact war ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 26 mai 2012 - 07:49 .

[Stump01]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Stump01 wrote...

Assuming the blast wave travels at the speed of light, the reapers wouldn't see that the relay had blown up until the wave hit them.

Shockwaves don't travel at the speed of light - not in our world, and not in ME.

Proof

The spacemagic RGB shockwaves at the end of the game travelled far faster than the speed of light.

[Pugzley]

Are nuclear weapons obsolete?

Cause I would just use precision tactical nukes against the Reapers just as they are about to charge their primary weapons, like in the Quarian Homeworld. That and any WMDs we can spare/make.

[linkblade0]

Pugzley wrote...

Are nuclear weapons obsolete?

Cause I would just use precision tactical nukes against the Reapers just as they are about to charge their primary weapons, like in the Quarian Homeworld. That and any WMDs we can spare/make.

That is basically what Anderson was doing on Earth.  guerrila tactics.  Hit and run manuevers.  Whatever you want to call it, its a tactic that only really works if whatever is firing at the Reaper's 'eye' for lack of a better term, isn't bogged down with more reapers around it.    The Quarian flotilla could do it because they were just floating in space opposite of the geth armada and weren't busy at the moment.

We also need to realize that we are talking about a potential multi-generational war.  All those scientists and researchers that had been working on the Crucible would be freed up.  Rather than hand them a gun and say 'go try and kill something'  Have them move to weapons development. 

Its a historically sound method.  Look at WWII... In a matter of 7 years, technology jumped forward by several decades.  Why?  Because as I said before necessity dictates need.  We have the most brilliant minds in the galaxy working on almost nothing but 'how do we kill the Reaper's.'  We're bound to come up with at least something.  The galaxy was stagnant before the Reaper invasion.  But with a extinction war in progress I would love to see what they coudl come up with.

Modifié par linkblade0, 26 mai 2012 - 01:05 .

[Scimal]

Deathcall wrote...

Conventional warfare, or "slugging it out", will most likely fail and bring about the doom of our cycle.

Even our best estimates put the reaper armada at a 1/1 ratio. Considering their strategic, tactical and technological superiority, trying to go toe to toe with them is outright madness.

While it could be initially considered a sound idea, the ark colony plan (or colonies) is beset by several problems. First and foremost, their construction would have to be kept entirely secret and be done in planets which the reapers are likely to bypass or not pay much attetion to, otherwise, they are bound to be found with scanners. We must remember that we are facing an enemy one or more billion years old. Every tactic which we can think about has most likely been tried in the past. Also, power failures, such as the one suffered by the Ilos protheans, sleeper agents, like the ones who sabotaged Javik's army, and other dangers make the "rentability" of this venture highly risky.

The Reapers don't scan every planet for life. They use the databases of species they're currently Reaping to determine where to attack. That's how Ilos got spared - it wasn't in any Prothean databases. No data trail, no existence as far as the Reapers are concerned. The Prothean mistake was the inability to keep indoctrinated saboteurs away.

You don't need to hide underground - you just need to get to a planet, not use any advanced tech, and make sure nobody outside of the colonists know about it.

The Citadel is the only asset that truly matters in this war. Letting the Reapers control it is asking to get shut off the relay network. If that comes to happen, any chance of mounting a successful counter-offensive is lost. It's up to the eggheads to figure out if destroying the citadel will make the entire relay network collapse. For now, we can't risk that outcome, but we can't risk the reapers having control of it either.

Give me as many ships with stealth capabilities as you can. I'll pump them full of my best men and have them assault the citadel. There must be a way to board it, even with the arms closed. And if there isn't, we'll just blow one open. Once their loads are in, the ships will retreat to safety. Our forces WILL take control of the Citadel and move it to the mass relay in the sol system. Once there, they'll use the Citadel itself to jump the Mass Relay to the next point in the network, following it soon after. This way, we'll strand all the reaper forces in the sol system, negating our enemy a huge portion of their armada.

With the Citadel under our control once more, we'll put all the resources we had on the Crucible to work at figuring out how the relay network works. With their first objective being a complete map of every relay in the galaxy, we don't want the reapers on Earth using a backdoor to escape. While the whitecoats work on that, we'll engange reapers where they are the weakest and evaluate the possibilty of repeating the tactic we used on the Sol system to further aisoltate chunks their fleet.

If this tactic is successful, we actually stand a chance against the reapers. Considerable losses will be suffered by those we leave behind, and we'll still have to deal with the sizeable fleet we left at earth eventually, but at least it'll be on our terms.

I'm still not sure what your plan is. Take control of the Citadel and then take control of the Relay network? Wouldn't that just slow down the Reapers? The Reapers have FTL, and can travel faster than our ships. They're not more than a couple of years (at most) from any point in the galaxy via FTL.

Plus, there's absolutely no assurance that the Reapers don't have some built-in default key to turn the Relays back on, or that they haven't hidden a backup controller that can override anything you do. Yes, the Citadel is sort of the main control platform for the entire Relay network - but it's not like there's a giant "OFF" switch around the Presidium somewhere. The Protheans certainly couldn't do it, and they had significantly more knowledge about the Relay network.

You also have massive resource problems if you're constantly back-stepping and taking pot-shots at your enemy.

And it's never made clear whether the Citadel can actually move itself via the Mass Relay network. The Reapers could have just pushed it towards the Relay in the Citadel's system to get it to Earth.

Too many unknowns to justify the massive expenditure of resources, to me.

[PsyrenY]

Stump01 wrote...

The spacemagic RGB shockwaves at the end of the game travelled far faster than the speed of light.

That's space magic. You guys are talking about a good old fashioned explosion, not the Crucible.

Also, the scene where it was chasing Joker was AFTER the beam hit the relay, so it stands to reason that both Joker and the beam were being accelerated by the Relay itself.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 26 mai 2012 - 04:13 .

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal.

The Reapers don't scan every planet for life. They use the databases of species they're currently Reaping to determine where to attack. That's how Ilos got spared - it wasn't in any Prothean databases. No data trail, no existence as far as the Reapers are concerned. The Prothean mistake was the inability to keep indoctrinated saboteurs away.

You don't need to hide underground - you just need to get to a planet, not use any advanced tech, and make sure nobody outside of the colonists know about it.

Although it'd be safe to assume that what you say is correct, creating colonies as proposed by the "ark" idea would involve way too many resources and manpower to keep it secret. We got lucky with the Crucible (or at least we thought we did), but moving millions of civilians and hardware, not even counting the time it would take to build such facilities... the reapers will realize something is up. Once the plan is leaked (and it most likely will), they'll start actively searching for these colonies and wiping them out.

The Ilos' protheans isolation was a double-edged sword. While it deprived them of the resources of the empire, it also made keepings secrets easier, as there were fewer chances for information to be leaked to the enemy.

I'm still not sure what your plan is. Take control of the Citadel and then take control of the Relay network? Wouldn't that just slow down the Reapers? The Reapers have FTL, and can travel faster than our ships. They're not more than a couple of years (at most) from any point in the galaxy via FTL.

A "couple of years" deprived of the bulk (or even a sizable portion) of their armada is more than what we can hope for. Slowing them down is only a side-effect of the plan. It's main objective is to fraction the enemy down to a number in which we can safely engage them without suffering heavy losses.

Plus, there's absolutely no assurance that the Reapers don't have some built-in default key to turn the Relays back on, or that they haven't hidden a backup controller that can override anything you do. Yes, the Citadel is sort of the main control platform for the entire Relay network - but it's not like there's a giant "OFF" switch around the Presidium somewhere. The Protheans certainly couldn't do it, and they had significantly more knowledge about the Relay network.

It's true, we don't have suficient knowledge of the relay network to assure our control of the system... yet. That's why I propose we deprive them of the relays all together. Then it's up to the eggheads to pull their weight.

You also have massive resource problems if you're constantly back-stepping and taking pot-shots at your enemy.

I never suggested we employ guerrila tactics. Once the main reaper force attacking earth is cut from the rest of the reaper armada, we gather every ship we can and start hitting the enemy with surgical strikes. Our main objective, as it always is, would be to cause as much damage as possible with acceptable loses.

And it's never made clear whether the Citadel can actually move itself via the Mass Relay network. The Reapers could have just pushed it towards the Relay in the Citadel's system to get it to Earth.

Here we hit a wall. It is possible that the citadel can't jump itself. But... the reapers proved that one relay can jump another. Meaning, the Citadel could theoretically jump the sol relay. Depriving the reapers there of a way to join up with the rest of their forces is the best chance we got of gaining the upper hand in this conflict.

Now I ask you this: What would happen if we closed the Citadel's arms around the Sol relay and tried to use the latter to jump the former out of the system? Something to wonder about, isn't it? In any case, if we are able to jump the relay but not the citadel, it'd be a matter of sabotaging it so the Reapers can't use it to escape.

Too many unknowns to justify the massive expenditure of resources, to me.

There are unknown factors, yes. But I'm not asking much. Just a couple of stealth-capable ships, I'm sure I'll be able to round up voluntaries for the assault on the station quite easily... I know a certain commander who'd eagerly give it a shot. Besides, the ships will leave as soon as their cargo is deployed. The men will know... they either return with the Citadel, or they don't return at all. The ultimate sacrifice, but a worthy one if the plan works. A big enough force could fight on the Citadel for months. There are plenty of resources there to scavange.

On a sidenote, I just thought of a different way to use the Crucible. We have to weaponize it. Even if it's useless as a way to outright stop the reapers, it's structure and ability to both generate and withstand high power demands makes it a prime candidate for retrofitting. Imagine the kind of firepower it could yield! We could actually acquire a vessel that can go toe to toe against a reaper dreadnaught.

Modifié par Deathcall, 26 mai 2012 - 07:17 .

[Dormin]

I'm taking the vast majority of my groundforces and taking back the Citadel no matter the cost. The fleet will distract the Reaper forces as long as possible to give our troops time to secure the Citadel. Destroying Harbinger with suicidal boarding parties is another key priority, the Reapers may not have morale, but they seem to have a command structure.

Once we have control the relays will re-open and ideally between 60-80% of the fleet and the Citadel will fall back while the remaing 20-40% give their lives to secure our retreat and eventual victory. We move from system to system shutting down relays as we go, our stealth and scout ships will relay locations and movements of Reaper forces, where they are at their weakness and we have numerical supremacy, we hit them hard and wipe them out.
We force the Reapers to spread thin and continue to hound them, this war may take years or generations but it is unavoidable.

Meanwhile there is a probablity we must consider of eventual defeat, therefore we must have an Ilos of our own. Our ark will be located somewhere it can be a masked presence, not a planet but a station. Drawing energy from a neighbouring star, or perhaps beyond the Omega 4 relay. If our end does come we will destroy the Citadel and bring down as many Reaper Capital ships as we can.

Modifié par Dormin, 26 mai 2012 - 07:54 .

[Scimal]

Deathcall wrote...
A "couple of years" deprived of the bulk (or even a sizable portion) of their armada is more than what we can hope for. Slowing them down is only a side-effect of the plan. It's main objective is to fraction the enemy down to a number in which we can safely engage them without suffering heavy losses.

And if the majority stay together in a large fleet?

I never suggested we employ guerrila tactics. Once the main reaper force attacking earth is cut from the rest of the reaper armada, we gather every ship we can and start hitting the enemy with surgical strikes. Our main objective, as it always is, would be to cause as much damage as possible with acceptable loses.

Yes, but if you shut down the Relays, you're not using them either. The Reapers are faster than you, and you only have a few years head start at most. "Surgical Strikes" won't do much if the Reapers keep clustered and are tracking down the Citadel.

Here we hit a wall. It is possible that the citadel can't jump itself. But... the reapers proved that one relay can jump another. Meaning, the Citadel could theoretically jump the sol relay. Depriving the reapers there of a way to join up with the rest of their forces is the best chance we got of gaining the upper hand in this conflict.

How do you move the Citadel to the Charon Relay in the first place? It doesn't have engines that we know of.

Now I ask you this: What would happen if we closed the Citadel's arms around the Sol relay and tried to use the latter to jump the former out of the system? Something to wonder about, isn't it? In any case, if we are able to jump the relay but not the citadel, it'd be a matter of sabotaging it so the Reapers can't use it to escape.

Can't use what to escape? FTL drives that are faster than yours means you have a few years before you encounter the bulk of their forces.

I just don't see your plan. It sounds like you're just running away, and then relying on the Reapers to... split up? Why would they split up? Their forces are already conquering homeworlds, it only takes a Reaper per colony, and they're not pressed for time. The same Reaper could spend the next 300 years wiping out colonies while  the main Reaper force retrieves the Citadel.

There are unknown factors, yes. But I'm not asking much. Just a couple of stealth-capable ships, I'm sure I'll be able to round up voluntaries for the assault on the station quite easily... I know a certain commander who'd eagerly give it a shot. Besides, the ships will leave as soon as their cargo is deployed. The men will know... they either return with the Citadel, or they don't return at all. The ultimate sacrifice, but a worthy one if the plan works. A big enough force could fight on the Citadel for months. There are plenty of resources there to scavange.

What would the ships do? It can't send itself. It can't move by itself.

On a sidenote, I just thought of a different way to use the Crucible. We have to weaponize it. Even if it's useless as a way to outright stop the reapers, it's structure and ability to both generate and withstand high power demands makes it a prime candidate for retrofitting. Imagine the kind of firepower it could yield! We could actually acquire a vessel that can go toe to toe against a reaper dreadnaught.

Possibly an option. Not very maneuverable or aimable, though. Maybe a bomb.

[linkblade0]

The asari reportedly have the knowledge to build a relay but not the motivation. If you remember in ME2 you speak with the asari matriarch (who turns out to be Liara's 'dad') she mentions how she left because she got annoyed with the fact that all the asari were ignoring her advise and look into building more relays and advancing their race. Instead the asari were content to just drift along believing themselves secure.

If so we have a chance in case things turn sour but I still believe the best plan is to destroy the Citadel. Its too valuable to allow the reapers to hold it but we couldn't afford to spare the fleet to properly defend it.

Possibly an option. Not very maneuverable or aimable, though. Maybe a bomb.

Its space, if a sleeper cell and secretly rig an asteroid to fly into a relay we can attach thrusters to turn the Crucible, besides, with the high energy yield we could presumably charge it enough to fire at a reaper from halfway across a system.

Modifié par linkblade0, 27 mai 2012 - 12:48 .

[Deathcall]

@ Scimal

I am afraid you don't see the entire picture, admiral.

The objective is to deprive the reapers from access to the mass relays, thus using their own strategy against them. We do not have sufficient knowledge (yet) to control the relays, but we can certainely deny them access to them by simply moving them away.

The reapers might have proven three things:

a) That the Citadel can use the Mass Relays to move.
That a mass relay can jump another mass relay.
c) That the citadel can jump itself.

My plan is simple. We move to take back the Citadel with the biggest strike force we can muster, we deploy as many men as our stealth-ships can carry. Once inside the station (we punch our way through if need be), the ships retreat through the Sol relay and the teams on the "ground" search for the Citadel control room and try to find the facilities that control the relay network.

If the reapers haven't shut down the relays yet it must be because they haven't been able to fix the prothean's work. But I bet my fleet that they are trying to. Taking control of the Citadel is our only way of surviving this war. Don't fool yourself with other plans, we'll suffer the same fate as the other cycles unless we control the network.

Once in control of the Citadel, we move it to the Sol relay.

We know that the station was somehow moved to Earth. This allows for some possibilities:

a) The reapers made the station jump itself.
The reapers made the station move towards the local relay and jumped it (which would imply that they had to go through every relay on the way)
c) The reapers somehow towed the station towards the relay and then made it jump (which would imply the same as above with the added question of how they managed to move such a mostrous structure at any respectable speed without breaking it appart, or us finding out sooner for the matter)
d) They did it by using some sort of incredibly advanced technology we simply do not comprehend.

Seeing how nobody reported a huge space station moving about in the galaxy, or an army of reaper tow ships pulling it along from relay to relay, I believe we can safely assume that "a" is the way to go. My men and I are willing to take our chances with it. Also, some sort of propulsion must be available to the station in order to keep itself in orbit or line up for jumps.

So...

We jump the Citadel to the proximities of the Sol relay and use it to move the relay to the next point in the network, following it soon after. In this way, we leave all the reaper forces attacking Earth stranded and prevent them from reinforcing other reaper fleets.

Consider:

a) A considerable amount of their forces were already attacking Earth. It seems they consider it a priority target.
Even more of their forces joined the ones at Earth after the Citadel was taken.
c) The fight on Palaven has turned on the Turians favor, meaning reaper forces are already dwindling in their home system.
d) The Asari have the reapers on the defensive with their hit and run tactics (or at least the had them on the defensive until Thessia was hit)
e) Sur'kesh, Rannoch, Tuchanka and other minor (with all due respect to our alien comrades) homeworlds don't have a signficiant reaper presence (not when compared to the afore-mentioned)
f) Harbringer, the reaper flag ship - and "leader" if you will - is also on Earth.
g) Even traveling at 30 light years a day (rough estimate) it'd take them a considerable amount of time to reach the next point in the network. *** in all fairness, if what I looked up in wikipedia is accurate, Arcturus (the star) is only 11 parsecs away from Sol, which would mean like... 10 to 12 hours until they reach it... not a happy thought I know ***

With all those things in mind, it is possible for our fleet to bring the fight to the reapers, even conventionally. We can't eliminate their technological advantage, but we can limit their numbers.

While our fleets are at work. We'll put our best scientist to research how to operate the entire relay network, hopefully, denying the reapers access and increasing our advantage even further.

Weaponizing the Crucible as some sort of humongous artillery weapon would still be useful to break reaper formations, allowing us to manouver freely (possibly employing precision jumps to get behind them and fire before they can bring weapons to bare).

EDIT: Modified for logical structure.

Modifié par Deathcall, 27 mai 2012 - 03:28 .

[Beelzebubs]

Simples....

Each individual fleet sync their targetting computers, fire at reapers 1 at a time, highest priority targets (i.e dreadnaughts first) would be over in minutes.

Hell link every ship in the armada together with EDI doing the calculations, every ship shoots it's main weapon once for a split second before moving onto the next target...

In the cutscenes you see no attempt at focus fire...

Modifié par Beelzebubs, 27 mai 2012 - 02:51 .