98 réponses à ce sujet

[Cantina]

After reading and going through all the information about the lore in Thedas, I always come back to the same theory. The theory that Andraste was a mage and that the Chantry knows about this and has kept it hidden or is not aware of the information. Considering it is the Chantry, my bet is they know and have chosen to keep this information hidden.

IF this were true, her famous quote would make far more sense coming from a mage then someone who is not.


Thoughts? Opinions?

[Reznore57]

I'd like that .
And i'd like the Chantry to be aware of it , maybe they hide proof somewhere
And it's a fairly common thing in any religion or even the news , some people take some words and bend them to suit their agenda. , and hide the rest.
I think it's always interesting to see how the truth /informations changes as time passes ...
I don't specially want it to be all paint in black , i like some aspect of the chantry , but they 're surely not above doing some "bad " thing for the so called "greater good".

[Jessihatt]

I think she's a mage too. Namely because of what Oghren says at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

I'd like to be able to prove this in DA3, but even so, I don't think Circles should be eradicated but made more like schools instead of prisons.
I think Andraste would approve the Chantry giving guidance.

[TEWR]

Since the days of Origins, I have long since thought that she was a Blood Mage at the very least. DAII made me believe she was a Somniari blood mage. And my case supporting such a theory I will present here, as I did on another thread a month or so ago:

First, we have the book that's a gift for Wynne, which was cast into a fire no doubt for being something deemed heretical to the popular belief of Andraste. How it ended up in Orzammar I don't know. Maybe the Dwarves found it and wanted to hold onto it, should they need to use the information it presents as leverage against the Chantry.

Second, we have the mystic blade entitled Glandivalis by Shartan. One of the abilities this blade is imbued with is the power to possibly take control of an enemy in battle. It's obviously blood magic.

Third, the Guardian himself says that Andraste would often spend days at a time meditating without food or water. A pair of boots obtainable in Witch Hunt I believe says that a mage of the Antivan Circle would often traverse the Fade for days on end as a hobby (to which she was subsequently misbranded as dead and buried alive).
 
Fourth, we have a statue from the Temple that was built after Andraste's death by her faithful followers with a very odd placement for the flames that light the area:



There might be more.

EDIT: Let's not forget that the stories claim that the powers of the Maker were on Andraste's side. That of fire and hail, storms and floods, drought and gusts, etc.

Whether she actually had any contact with the Maker is unknown, for now. She may never have really had anything to do with Him -- if He even exists -- or she may have been His Prophet all along.

Either way, the Chantry loses some credibility if this comes to light by someone not associated with the current Divine. Were the current Divine to reveal such information, it would lend itself well to supporting Mage rights and may help garner support for her methinks since she's the one revealing it.

It would definitely help her get the Mages on her side, if they're not smart enough to offer their help to the woman that is supporting their call for more rights in the first place.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mai 2012 - 05:01 .

[dragonflight288]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Chantry, or at least early Andrastian cults knew she was a mage, but the view of magic was such that the prophet being a mage couldn't be swallowed by the Chantry, and they hid the knowledge, and may even have forgotten it as time passed.

We can turn in an account written by Maferath in Origins. I think it would be great if it came out that Andraste was a mage from that, and the Chantry is determined to keep it hidden while that curator and Genotivi would fight for the truth to be known.

[ImperialHeir]

 The Ethereal Writer Redux, you have summed up my thoughts exactly.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since the days of Origins, I have long since thought that she was a Somniari Blood Mage at the very least.

DAO mentioned somniari?

......

I'm surprised I didn't notice that when I typed it out. Damn. 
 
Correction: Since the days of Origins, I have long since thought she was a blood mage. Since DAII, I expanded that thought she was a Somniari blood mage.

Though one could say DAO talked about Somniari in a very broad sense, where Mages are called "Dreamers" and Avernus says he monkeyed with Levi's dreams -- which seems like something a Somniari could do. Though it could've just been the blood magic.

But it never actually gave the title Somniari, so see my correction.

dragonflight288 wrote...

We can turn in an account written by Maferath in Origins. I think it would be great if it came out that Andraste was a mage from that, and the Chantry is determined to keep it hidden while that curator and Genotivi would fight for the truth to be known.

Remember the current Divine is Divine Justinia V, who is all for more rights for the mages. Telling the populus the truth about Andraste -- that she was a mage -- would lend itself well to supporting the rights mages should have.

I doubt Justinia V will keep it under wraps any longer.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mai 2012 - 03:05 .

[Reznore57]

I'm not sure the current divine would make such a revelation.
I remember her showing empathy toward mages in Asunder , but also that she was looking for a way to
take away magic from mages without turning them into tranquil.
She sure show a lot of courage when she made a stand for mages before all orlais nobility ...
But she was also thinking about an exalted march against Kirkwall ...

If she reveals Andraste was a mage , she 's probably never gonna gain back any templars , ("omg the chantry made us bully our saviours /suicide"), if she would it will be a political move to gain the mages as an army.

And there's also The black Divine in Tevinter who would probably be laughing his a** off.

Chances are people would rather kill before such an information could be revealed.
And I don't see any Divine doing this , it will also put in question the Maker...
Did Andraste was possessed for hearing voices?
So it was magic and nothing divine etc...

[TEWR]

Reznore57 wrote...

If she reveals Andraste was a mage , she 's probably never gonna gain back any templars , ("omg the chantry made us bully our saviours /suicide"), if she would it will be a political move to gain the mages as an army.

sure she would. Not every Templar is going to be against the Mages and the Divine. There are going to be a fair deal that support the Mages and the Divine -- the Mages should support the Divine, if they're smart -- just as there may be some fervent Loyalists like Kelly helping the Templars that are against the Mages and the Divine.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snip* 
 
Fourth, we have a statue from the Temple that was built after Andraste's death by her faithful followers with a very odd placement for the flames that light the area:

Nice catch, E.W.R.! I've never really bought the Andraste as a mage theory, but this is really making me think. And silly as it may seem, the statue is actually the most compelling evidence for me. Retcon happens and there isn't significant meaning in every statue, but the flamedy hands consistently mean "mage" in the DA series. Well done.

[Lazy Jer]

Could be. Nothing that could really be proven, though.

[dragonflight288]

At least until DA3 comes out and we get more information...or not. What we have right now...can't be proven but there is enough evidence for to leave sufficient doubt.

[Gervaise]

I have constantly pointed out that there is nothing in the Chant of Light to say that mages should be locked up, guarded by templars, etc, or that magic is a curse. On the contrary, it quite clearly states that magic is a gift of the Maker and only those who misuse it are cursed by him.

Andraste's Exalted March was first and foremost an assault on the Tevinter Imperium. The great cry that went up from her army (according to the heretic verses about Shartan) was that "The slaves are free". It was an assault on slavery. Now Fenris confirms that Tevinter Magisters are not averse to enslaving other mages, which begs the question, even if Andraste was not a mage, were there no mages in her army? However, I am inclined to agree with the poster and others - I think the evidence is quite compelling and Andraste was a mage. Likely why the Archon's wife insisted on burning her to death since Flemeth (and other lesser mortals) have amply shown that so long as some small part of you remains, you can be revived. At the end much is made of the fact that she made no sound - may be Andraste could have saved herself but only by missuse of magic which she refused to do.
No Divine is going to admit to this - even one sympathetic to mages. It would totally ruin her credibility - people would just assume she had gone mad and depose her.
However, there is another possibility for getting at the truth. The recent comic series raised the possibility of summoning the dead to speak with you. May be eventually there will be some sort of plot line which will involve calling back the spirit of Andraste to bear witness to the truth of the matter.

[Harlequin2]

I personally hope that we never find out Andraste's true nature. Hopefully they'll give more clues, thinking points and red-herrings in Dragon Age 3, but I fear we'd lose out on some good characters. Sebastian, Leliana, the Divine(s). All of them would be warped by this revelation, and it would also prevent new characters with the faith as one of their main attributes from arising. The beauty about someone like Leliana, is that you can say that they're wrong, but it's just an opinion. You never know for sure but if they provide hard facts then any mystery is gone.

In honesty, I think the developers are hinting that she was a mage, but the truth is probably long since past/gone to the point that there is nothing now to concretely prove her identity either which way. I doubt even the Divines have strong evidence, and probably are just strong believers.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Strange. Why would a mage turn against her own kind? The Tervinter magisters maybe brutal to the elves and non-mages but I doubt they treated their fellow magister badly enough to cause the rebellion. Even if Andraste is morally good, she would have to convince non-mages to join her cause and being a magisters herself, I doubt she could draw much support from others. Anyway, the statue does give me a reason to doubt. Not sure if other mages light that eternal fire for her.

Just my opinion tho.

[TEWR]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Strange. Why would a mage turn against her own kind?

Because the Magisters enslave other mages too.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Strange. Why would a mage turn against her own kind? The Tervinter magisters maybe brutal to the elves and non-mages but I doubt they treated their fellow magister badly enough to cause the rebellion. Even if Andraste is morally good, she would have to convince non-mages to join her cause and being a magisters herself, I doubt she could draw much support from others. Anyway, the statue does give me a reason to doubt. Not sure if other mages light that eternal fire for her.

Just my opinion tho.

Who said anything Andraste being a magister?  The claim is that she was a mage, and mage =/= magister.  You seem to think that the claim is that Andraste was a Tevinter Magister who decided one day to split from her fellows, and that's not at all what's being said.  The lore indicates that Andraste was a native of Ferelden...there are conflicting reports, apparently, but the Chantry says she was born in Denerim.  As a child she was captured and sold into slavery, from which she later escaped, and then went down the path of becoming the wife of an Alamarri warlord, etc.  Some of us just happen to also think that she was a mage, too.

I disagree that a magister who believed otherwise from her fellows would not have been able to gain supporters if she was seen actively and successfully opposing them, just as I must point out that a person doesn't have to be the person taking the abuse in order to see that abusers are wrong and to take a stand against them.  But that's neither here nor there, really.  She was a slave who escaped and came back with an army to overthrow the Imperium. That's how she was able to win people to her side, and her being a mage wouldn't have discredited her standing in anyone's eyes if she, as a mage, was preaching that magic was meant to serve man, not rule him, and used that maxim to justify the sack of Tevinter.  It actually would have made her followers love her all the more, to see a mage on their side, fighting for the cause of freedom.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Who said anything she being a mage either? The codex mentioned she's a slave. Could you point out any reference that Andraste was a mage? or any history of Mages enslave mages in Tervinter Imperium? Why would the barbarians including the elves trusted mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood? And Ferelden WAS part of Tervinter Imperium.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 10:46 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Who said anything she being a mage either? The codex mentioned she's a slave. Could you point out any reference that Andraste was a mage? or any history of Mages enslave mages in Tervinter Imperium? Why would the barbarians trusted mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?

One of the sources for the mage theory is a gift item for Wynne found in DA:O - The Search for the True Prophet. The description of which reads:

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Who said anything she being a mage either? The codex mentioned she's a slave. Could you point out any reference that Andraste was a mage? or any history of Mages enslave mages in Tervinter Imperium? Why would the barbarians trusted mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?

One of the sources for the mage theory is a gift item for Wynne found in DA:O - The Search for the True Prophet. The description of which reads:

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

Look at your own reference. It clearly said POSSIBILITY. And that's what you guys are clinging to. Speculation. Not fact.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 10:50 .

[caradoc2000]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

One of the sources for the mage theory is a gift item for Wynne found in DA:O - The Search for the True Prophet. The description of which reads:

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

That book is clearly just a fanfic.

[Urzon]

It's speculated that she could have been a mage.

And being a mage =/= being a magister in the Imperium. A magister is a political postion. All the magisters are mages because the Imperium is a magocracy, but that doesn't been that every mage is in a position of power.

The Imperium has a very big "dog eat dog" culture. Being born with magic gives you an advantage of everyone that is not, but everyone is still fair game against the big fishes. That includes the mages getting enslaved themselves.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Who said anything she being a mage either? The codex mentioned she's a slave. Could you point out any reference that Andraste was a mage? or any history of Mages enslave mages in Tervinter Imperium? Why would the barbarians trusted mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?

One of the sources for the mage theory is a gift item for Wynne found in DA:O - The Search for the True Prophet. The description of which reads:

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

Look at your own reference. It clearly said POSSIBILITY. And that's what you guys are clinging to. Speculation. Not fact.

He never said it was a fact. And, whykikyouwhy clearly said that it was a theory in her statement.

Modifié par Urzon, 16 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Look at your own reference. It clearly said POSSIBILITY. And that's what you guys are clinging to. Speculation. Not fact.

Who said anything was a fact or was canon? This whole thread is about speculation - it's about the discussion of what-if's and possibilities. Of finding things in game that might lend credence to the theory.

While you may not care to partake in speculative discussion, that does not make the endeavors of others who do enjoy such things any less valid or worthy.