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[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...

It's speculated that she could have been a mage.

And being a mage =/= being a magister in the Imperium. A magister is a political postion. All the magisters are mages because the Imperium is a magocracy, but that doesn't been that every mage is in a position of power.

The Imperium has a very big "dog eat dog" culture. Being born with magic gives you an advantage of everyone that is not, but everyone is still fair game against the big fishes. That includes the mages getting enslaved themselves.

He never said it was a fact. And, whykikyouwhy clearly said that it was a theory in her statement.

You can speculate her being a mage while I can't speculate her being a magister? Then explain why the barbarian and the elves support her? What a common mage could possibility do to rally them given the fact that  Tervinter mages were bloodthirsty maniac who sacrifice hundreds of elves, just to enter the Golden city 200 years earlier?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 11:10 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Look at your own reference. It clearly said POSSIBILITY. And that's what you guys are clinging to. Speculation. Not fact.

Who said anything was a fact or was canon? This whole thread is about speculation - it's about the discussion of what-if's and possibilities. Of finding things in game that might lend credence to the theory.

While you may not care to partake in speculative discussion, that does not make the endeavors of others who do enjoy such things any less valid or worthy.

Well someone tried to grasp straws as it's  a fact - not you and Ethereal of course. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[Urzon]

caradoc2000 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

One of the sources for the mage theory is a gift item for Wynne found in DA:O - The Search for the True Prophet. The description of which reads:

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

That book is clearly just a fanfic.

Obviously the person who burned that book was a Makdraste shipper. Thank the Maker..... *cough* Thank the (insert Divine being) that the Flemdraste shipper saved it in time!

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
You can speculate her being a mage while I can't speculate her being a magister? Then explain why the barbarian and the elves support her? What a common mage could possibility do to rally them given the fact that  Tervinter mages were bloodthirsty maniac who sacrifice hundreds of elves, just to enter the Golden city 200 years earlier?

Tevinter being weakened by the first blight + Public hatred because they can sacrifice hundreds of slaves (and they do so happily) + oppressed masses + charismatic figure head= rebellion.

I can point to many different charismatic leaders from real life, that came from nothing, that started a rebellion against an opressive government. You can't swing a bag of cats without hitting at least a dozen during history.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
You can speculate her being a mage while I can't speculate her being a magister? Then explain why the barbarian and the elves support her? What a common mage could possibility do to rally them given the fact that  Tervinter mages were bloodthirsty maniac who sacrifice hundreds of elves, just to enter the Golden city 200 years earlier?

Tevinter being weakened by the first blight + Public hatred because they can sacrifice hundreds of slaves (and they do so happily) + oppressed masses + charismatic figure head= rebellion.

I can point to many different charismatic leaders from real life, that came from nothing, that started a rebellion against an opressive government. You can't swing a bag of cats without hitting at least a dozen during history.

Then you shoud well aware that people of that era hated mages with fury. By claiming Andraste as mage, you're claiming her as Tervinter mage as well. Ferelden was part of the Imperium during that era. Therefore, Ferelden mages = Tervinter mages. Why would anyone support a Tervinter mage against her own people?  Because she was a slave too? Jesus was not a Roman's citizen. He was a Palestinian. William Wallace was not English. He's Scottish. Joan of Arc  was not english. She's French. All this great people fight for their own people. Not a character who turn against her people. The most logical reason why the elves and barbarians rally behind Andraste was, she's a barbarian, a slave and a non-mage  just like them. Period. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

But by claiming Andraste as mage, you're claiming her as Tervinter mage as well. Ferelden was part of the Imperium during that era. Therefore, Ferelden mages = Tervinter mages. Why would anyone support a Tervinter mage against her own people?  Because she was a slave too? Jesus was not a Roman's citizen. He was a Palestinian. William Wallace was not English. He's Scottish. Joan of Arc  was not english. He's French. All this great people fight for their own people. Not against their own people. The most logical reason why the elves and barbarians rally behind Andraste was, she's a barbarian and a slave just like them. A non-mage. Period. 

From the codex entry - Bride of the Maker:

There was once a tiny fishing village on the Waking Sea that was set upon by the Tevinter Imperium, which enslaved the villagers to be sold in the markets of Minrathous, leaving behind only the old and the infirm. One of the captives was the child Andraste.
She was raised in slavery in a foreign land. She escaped, then made the long and treacherous journey back to her homeland alone. She rose from nothing to be the wife of an Alamarri warlord.

While she may have been raised in the Imperium, that does not cement her allegiance to Tevinter. So too, if she were a mage, that does not automatically dictate that she must ally herself with/to all other mages, regardless of their positions of power.

If she saw injustice, that most likely superceded any such loyalty based solely on upbringing or residence. She seems to have waged her battles against corruption - against those who enslaved her people. It would not matter so much that those ranks included mages because she was fighting cruelty - and that trait, and the actions dictated by it, are not indicative of any class or ethnic origin. 

If she was a mage, and proved herself to care for the plight of the people, and be dedicated to freeing them from corrupt magisters, why wouldn't people rally behind her? It's the cause, the greater good (however it may be spun) that can be important, and will allow people to take up arms and join in a rebellion. Perhaps Andraste possessed the cult of personality. Perhaps her words rang with conviction and were deemed honorable.

Again, this is all in the spirit of speculation. And while I hesitate to make any solid (real world) historial parallels, if anything, history does tell us that not everything is so cut and dry, nor blatantly logical. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
While she may have been raised in the Imperium, that does not cement her allegiance to Tevinter. So too, if she were a mage, that does not automatically dictate that she must ally herself with/to all other mages, regardless of their positions of power.

If she was a mage, the Tervinter mages would had took, guide and treated her well because she was as one of them. She would not live as slave for no apparent reason.  Only elves and non-mages live as slaves. Only the elves were sacrificied for blood magic and some other dark rituals. 

whykikyouwhy wrote...


If she saw injustice, that most likely superceded any such loyalty based solely on upbringing or residence. She seems to have waged her battles against corruption - against those who enslaved her people. It would not matter so much that those ranks included mages because she was fighting cruelty - and that trait, and the actions dictated by it, are not indicative of any class or ethnic origin.

If she was a mage, her people would be the Tervinter mages. Not the slaves and barbarians. No non mages would allowed a mage to live among them. She would be killed instantly for being a mage. Her place was not with the slaves and barbarian. Her place should be with the Tervinter mages.

whykikyouwhy wrote...


[/i]If she was a mage, and proved herself to care for the plight of the people, and be dedicated to freeing them from corrupt magisters, why wouldn't people rally behind her? It's the cause, the greater good (however it may be spun) that can be important, and will allow people to take up arms and join in a rebellion. Perhaps Andraste possessed the cult of personality. Perhaps her words rang with conviction and were deemed honorable.

Why would the elves and barbarian trust a word from a mage after hundreds years of oppression under the  mages?

No. This war was about non-mages trying to free themselves from mages which resulted in forbidding of all magic practise after the chantry establish her own country. .

 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 16 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Who said anything she being a mage either? The codex mentioned she's a slave. Could you point out any reference that Andraste was a mage? or any history of Mages enslave mages in Tervinter Imperium? Why would the barbarians including the elves trusted mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood? And Ferelden WAS part of Tervinter Imperium.

The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could. 

Why would the elves trust mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?  Um, that supports my argument of Andraste not being a Tevinter magister, firstly, but even if I were actually arguing that Andraste were a Magister, it still supports my argument, since I specifically pointed to the example of a Magister who was directly opposed to the other Magisters' practices.  Elves and other slaves who saw a magister speaking out and taking action AGAINST the others are going to see that she is on their side.  But again, I wasn't making that argument, just pointing out that it was actually a plausible idea, even though I think the available lore clearly refutes that Andraste was a Magister, though it does appear that she was indeed a mage.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Urzon wrote...

It's speculated that she could have been a mage.

And being a mage =/= being a magister in the Imperium. A magister is a political postion. All the magisters are mages because the Imperium is a magocracy, but that doesn't been that every mage is in a position of power.

The Imperium has a very big "dog eat dog" culture. Being born with magic gives you an advantage of everyone that is not, but everyone is still fair game against the big fishes. That includes the mages getting enslaved themselves.

He never said it was a fact. And, whykikyouwhy clearly said that it was a theory in her statement.

You can speculate her being a mage while I can't speculate her being a magister? Then explain why the barbarian and the elves support her? What a common mage could possibility do to rally them given the fact that  Tervinter mages were bloodthirsty maniac who sacrifice hundreds of elves, just to enter the Golden city 200 years earlier?

Seriously?  You can't see that people who were used to being abused by powerful mages wouldn't embrace a mage whose words and actions both made it abundantly clear that she did not believe that magic gave anyone the right to enslave another?  Andraste didn't merely toss around pretty words of solidarity.  She backed up her words by acting in direct opposition to the Imperium.  Think about it.  A mage turns out to be one of them, because she was a slave too.  For all that she was a mage, and a powerful one, she was on THEIR side.  That would be a powerful symbol for people to get behind. 

[svenus97]

It's a possibility. It would, however, be pretty sweet if you somehow find out in DA3 and used it to ruin the chantry, not that it would be very hard according to DA2's ending.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
While she may have been raised in the Imperium, that does not cement her allegiance to Tevinter. So too, if she were a mage, that does not automatically dictate that she must ally herself with/to all other mages, regardless of their positions of power.

If she was a mage, the Tervinter mages would had took, guide and treated her well because she was as one of them. She would not live as slave for no apparent reason.  Only elves and non-mages live as slaves. Only the elves were sacrificied for blood magic and some other dark rituals. 

Sorry, no.  We have lore that states the Tevinter magisters have no problem enslaving weaker mages.  You cannot categorically state that mages are exempt from slavery.  We have evidence that this is not the case.

whykikyouwhy wrote...


If she saw injustice, that most likely superceded any such loyalty based solely on upbringing or residence. She seems to have waged her battles against corruption - against those who enslaved her people. It would not matter so much that those ranks included mages because she was fighting cruelty - and that trait, and the actions dictated by it, are not indicative of any class or ethnic origin.

If she was a mage, her people would be the Tervinter mages. Not the slaves and barbarians. No non mages would allowed a mage to live among them. She would be killed instantly for being a mage. Her place was not with the slaves and barbarian. Her place should be with the Tervinter mages.

Nope.  You're assuming automatically that her being a mage would have allied her with other mages, regardless of other factors, and there is no basis on which to do so.  Your assertions here all hinge on the assumption that there are no other factors to consider beyond magehood; not upbringing or anything else, and this is fallacious.  We know for (almost) a certainty that Andraste was a slave, but given the other factors at play, her being a mage would not automatically mean that she could not possibly have been a slave too.  Again, we have lore that indicates the Tevinter magisters don't hesitate to enslave mages too weak to keep themselves free.

By the way, it's TeVinter.  Not TeRvinter, but TeVinter.  No r in that first syllable.  Just pointing that out.  

whykikyouwhy wrote...

[/i]If she was a mage, and proved herself to care for the plight of the people, and be dedicated to freeing them from corrupt magisters, why wouldn't people rally behind her? It's the cause, the greater good (however it may be spun) that can be important, and will allow people to take up arms and join in a rebellion. Perhaps Andraste possessed the cult of personality. Perhaps her words rang with conviction and were deemed honorable.

Why would the elves and barbarian trust a word from a mage after hundreds years of oppression under the  mages?

No. This war was about non-mages trying to free themselves from mages which resulted in forbidding of all magic practise after the chantry establish her own country. .

And it's just not even remotely possible that a mage might have come along, believed that the Imperium's institution of slavery was wrong, and had the personal power (speaking in terms of charismatic appeal) to rally people to her cause?  It couldn't possibly have been that weaker mages were prone to being enslaved along with others, and that one of their number turned out to have the gifts necessary to foment a rebellion that went on to be successful?

The message was not "magic is evil and forbidden and hurts people no matter what."  Andraste's message was "Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him."  If it was strictly a war of non-mages against mages, rather than a rebellion against corrupt mages using their power to enslave and dominate, then the former message is what would have carried the day.  But it isn't.  And the second message actually does make more sense to have come from a mage herself, since it carries no inherent condemnation of magic itself, as one would expect from someone who had been waging war to cast down mages, rather than evil, corrupt mages.  

And the Chantry never forbid the practicing of all magic, and not on Andraste's word alone did they form the Circle with its prohibitions and limitations.  The Chantry's myriad problems notwithstanding, this is not true.  It's a twisting of the actual history of the Chantry's stand on magic in order to support your assertion. 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.

The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  

Silfren wrote...

Why would the elves trust mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?  Um, that supports my argument of Andraste not being a Tevinter magister, firstly, but even if I were actually arguing that Andraste were a Magister, it still supports my argument, since I specifically pointed to the example of a Magister who was directly opposed to the other Magisters' practices.  Elves and other slaves who saw a magister speaking out and taking action AGAINST the others are going to see that she is on their side.

 
So you agree why I could also SPECULATE she being a Tervinter Magister? A tervinter magister had more credible political position to influence slaves and barbarian than an unknown mage.

Silfren wrote...
But again, I wasn't making that argument, just pointing out that it was actually a plausible idea, even though I think the available lore clearly refutes that Andraste was a Magister, though it does appear that she was indeed a mage.

And you still want to talk about lore when the lore never stated anywhere she's being a mage?

Silfren wrote...
Seriously? You can't see that people who were used to being abused by powerful mages wouldn't embrace a mage whose words and actions both made it abundantly clear that she did not believe that magic gave anyone the right to enslave another? Andraste didn't merely toss around pretty words of solidarity. She backed up her words by acting in direct opposition to the Imperium. Think about it. A mage turns out to be one of them, because she was a slave too. For all that she was a mage, and a powerful one, she was on THEIR side. That would be a powerful symbol for people to get behind.

No I can't see. Why would the elves and barbarians trusted  word from mages who were the one responsible  for Arlathan Elves holocaust and mass murdered at Golden City hundred years earlier. The hatred towards mages is evident with the Chantry teaching.

Silfren wrote...
And it's just not even remotely possible that a mage might have come along, believed that the Imperium's institution of slavery was wrong, and had the personal power (speaking in terms of charismatic appeal) to rally people to her cause?

 
Since when a mage could understand how the common folk sufering? Throughout the history mages are proven to be ruthless uncompromise lunatic people. They're ruthless with their neighbouring Arlathan Elves. They' enslaved weaker tribes and mostly elves. They sacrificed hundreds of elves to enter the Golden City. That's what mages were in Pre-ages. They didn't give a **** about non-mages. The weaker mage had no place in that era. It's "dog eat dog" situation. And those weaker mages who couldn't stand cannot survived living with the slaves and barbarians. Because the non-mage slaves hated mages. And I repeat again, the hatred is evident with the Chantry teaching.

Silfren wrote...




It couldn't possibly have been that weaker mages were prone to being enslaved along with others, and that one of their number turned out to have the gifts necessary to foment a rebellion that went on to be successful?

So now you are suggesting, the rebellion were from a number of weaker slave mages? That's not in the codex. The codex mention the barbarian from south with support with the elves.

Silfren wrote...
The message was not "magic is evil and forbidden and hurts people no matter what." Andraste's message was "Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him." If it was strictly a war of non-mages against mages, rather than a rebellion against corrupt mages using their power to enslave and dominate, then the former message is what would have carried the day. But it isn't. And the second message actually does make more sense to have come from a mage herself, since it carries no inherent condemnation of magic itself, as one would expect from someone who had been waging war to cast down mages, rather than evil, corrupt mages.

That message could be intrepreted as condemnation of magic in subtle manner and interpreted as such by the chantry. Your version of intrepretation is your own making that doesn't exist in game world.

Silfren wrote...
And the Chantry never forbid the practicing of all magic

Yes they did. They outlaw magic in 1:1 Divine.  You know it  was forbidden. But you purposely dismiss it as you dismiss all the chantry's sources as bias. Your twisted "educated guesses" are  the only fact to you. It's you the one who twisted lore and history to make the mages look like a cute innocent harmless teddy bear.


 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 01:46 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.

The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  

 
Please note the bolded part - Silfren states "...that were said to be proof..." The operative words being "said to be," meaning that some within the DA-verse itself were using those events as a way to support the Maker heeding Andraste's call. Again, this discussion (last I checked) is centered around speculation, and as such, folks are going to pose theories and cite lore, codex entries, dialogue from NPCs, etc. 

I'm just going to address one more point here:

 

Silfren wrote...

And it's just not even remotely possible that a mage might have come along, believed that the Imperium's institution of slavery was wrong, and had the personal power (speaking in terms of charismatic appeal) to rally people to her cause?

 
Since when a mage could understand how the common folk sufering? Throughout the history mages are proven to be ruthless uncompromise lunatic people. They're ruthless with their neighbouring Arlathan Elves. They' enslaved weaker tribes and mostly elves. They sacrificed hundreds of elves to enter the Golden City. That's what mages were in Pre-ages. They didn't give a **** about non-mages. The weaker mage had no place in that era. It's "dog eat dog" situation. And those weaker mages who couldn't stand cannot survived living with the slaves and barbarians. Because the non-mage slaves hated mages. And I repeat again, the hatred is evident with the Chantry teaching.

 

You seem to be grouping all mages together - and making a broad generalization for the attitude and behaviors of all mages. Can you truly say, with all certainty, that every single mage in the "pre-ages" of the DA-verse was corrupt and didn't care about the common folk? That there was never a mage who may have cared deeply or held respect for non-mages? 

I don't know...that seems a bit of a stretch. <_<

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.

The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  

 
Please note the bolded part - Silfren states "...that were said to be proof..." The operative words being "said to be," meaning that some within the DA-verse itself were using those events as a way to support the Maker heeding Andraste's call. Again, this discussion (last I checked) is centered around speculation, and as such, folks are going to pose theories and cite lore, codex entries, dialogue from NPCs, etc.

If you want to discuss speculation that's fine with me. But don't try to make your argument as a fact when trying to counter my speculation. ( I'm not saying you )  I hate it when people feel they're the only one who can speculate but dismiss other people's opinion who disagree with them. Speculation can be anything. You can speculate Andraste as a marvel comics character's wonder woman too if you have enough speculative evidence to support your case. There's nothing wrong about it. But when it comes to fact, you better make sure your fact is true and not about possibility this and that. FACT has nothing to do with Possibility.. 

whykikyouwhy wrote...
You seem to be grouping all mages together - and making a broad generalization for the attitude and behaviors of all mages. Can you truly say, with all certainty, that every single mage in the "pre-ages" of the DA-verse was corrupt and didn't care about the common folk? That there was never a mage who may have cared deeply or held respect for non-mages? 

I don't know...that seems a bit of a stretch. <_<

Well if you could point me one mage in that era who did symphatize the Arlathan Elves, then I'm willing to change my view on mages. And Yes I make a broad generalization. It dosn't matter because the general slaves and barbarians of that era hated all mages. And it's proven by the chantry teaching.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 02:14 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

If you want to discuss speculation that's fine with me. But don't try to make your argument as a fact when trying to counter my speculation. ( I'm not saying you )  I hate it when people feel they're the only one who can speculate but dismiss other people's opinion who disagree with them. Speculation can be anything. You can speculate Andraste as a marvel comics character's wonder woman too if you have enough speculative evidence to support your case. There's nothing wrong about it. But when it comes to fact, you better make sure your fact is true and not about possibility this and that. FACT has nothing to do with Possibility.. 

 
I don't know where anyone in this thread declared something to be hard core, firm, undeniable fact.

Well if you could point me one mage in that era who did symphatize the Arlathan Elves, then I'm willing to change my view on mages. And Yes I make a broad generalization. It dosn't matter because the general slaves and barbarians of that era hated all mages. And it's proven by the chantry teaching.

It sounds like you are taking the Chantry's teachings to be fact - that how mages are presented in Chantry lore is the true and only way of things from Thedas' past. While Chantry lore does make up a good chunk of what we, as players, know about DA-verse history, there are other codex sources. So personally, I would be hesitant to make any broad declarative statements about how elves or barbarians regarded mages (didn't both have their own mages and shamans?), or to say that there was never a benevolent mage. 

So too, history can sometimes be written for and by a specific audience, and may indeed not represent facts, but a skewed version of actual events.

[Asdara]

It could be that she was a mage, or it could be that she simply enlisted mages to fight alongside her - they obviously had some magic somewhere to pull down the Imperium - barring the Maker himself razing it to the ground, which clearly didn't happen or the entire Imperium would have fallen, not just the Southern part as Fenris points out is the case.

I tend to think that her being "part of the Imperium" for the fact that Ferelden was one of their lands is rather weak reason to say she couldn't have been also a mage and fighting against "her own" - When Ferelden was under Orlais it didn't stop them from rebelling and considering themselves Ferelden first. It is entirely possible for people to revolt against "their own" government and/or social structure, and it's very likely that Andraste, as a slave and a person born in a province of that overreaching empire didn't consider herself a "Tevinter." People born in the second Carthage could have considered themselves Roman and they could also have considered themselves not-Roman enough to support Rome. It's happened.

It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.  

I tend to think she was a mage myself, because it feeds the fire of the Mage vs. Chantry conflict that is being stage set for us in this series. It is a twist that makes enough sense that it would be a huge resist vs. temptation not to use it at some point in the series. So strictly from a writing perspective, I would say she's more likely mage than not - or at least the speculation about her being one will be so impossible to disprove/prove that the conflict will at some point exist.

Modifié par Asdara, 17 mai 2012 - 02:42 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I don't know where anyone in this thread declared something to be hard core, firm, undeniable fact.

Well someone did tried to make it appear to be hard core, firm, undeniable fact through his/her structure of wordings.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It sounds like you are taking the Chantry's teachings to be fact - that how mages are presented in Chantry lore is the true and only way of things from Thedas' past.

Nope. I'm saying that the chantry's source was written by people who were present and witness at the time of events. 

whykikyouwhy wrote...

While Chantry lore does make up a good chunk of what we, as players, know about DA-verse history, there are other codex sources. So personally, I would be hesitant to make any broad declarative statements about how elves or barbarians regarded mages (didn't both have their own mages and shamans?), or to say that there was never a benevolent mage.

If you have any source beside the chantry, I'm willing to hear and study it.

 

whykikyouwhy wrote...


So too, history can sometimes be written for and by a specific audience, and may indeed not represent facts, but a skewed version of actual events.

History is written by the winner. Whether It's the skewed version of actual events or not it does provide proof of written statement that can be studied, analyzed and proven as false or true, unlike mouth to mouth folklore that the Dalish are using. That itself make written records more reliable than the Chasind's or Dalish's legends.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 02:53 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Asdara wrote...

It could be that she was a mage, or it could be that she simply enlisted mages to fight alongside her - they obviously had some magic somewhere to pull down the Imperium - barring the Maker himself razing it to the ground, which clearly didn't happen or the entire Imperium would have fallen, not just the Southern part as Fenris points out is the case.

Could be or could be not.

Asdara wrote...

I tend to think that her being "part of the Imperium" for the fact that Ferelden was one of their lands is rather weak reason to say she couldn't have been also a mage and fighting against "her own" - When Ferelden was under Orlais it didn't stop them from rebelling and considering themselves Ferelden first. It is entirely possible for people to revolt against "their own" government and/or social structure,

When Ferelden was under Orlais, Andraste was already dead. So it's not the issue with mage leading peasants, slaves and barbarian anymore. The mages were decisively defeated and driven away from the south and Orlais had turn into fully established independant country under a NON-MAGE monarch. .

Asdara wrote...


and it's very likely that Andraste, as a slave and a person born in a province of that overreaching empire didn't consider herself a "Tevinter." People born in the second Carthage could have considered themselves Roman and they could also have considered themselves not-Roman enough to support Rome. It's happened.

She was a slave. There is no written histroy could dispute that. And it's logical. Still doesn't say anything about she being a mage. Only possibility that cannot be proven as definite truth. 

Asdara wrote...



It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.

Great. Another speculation under the blanket of factual event. 

Asdara wrote...




I tend to think she was a mage myself, because it feeds the fire of the Mage vs. Chantry conflict that is being stage set for us in this series. It is a twist that makes enough sense that it would be a huge resist vs. temptation not to use it at some point in the series. So strictly from a writing perspective, I would say she's more likely mage than not - or at least the speculation about her being one will be so impossible to disprove/prove that the conflict will at some point exist.

And I tend to think she's not as it make no sense for her decendants and pupils to teach the hating of magic. The Chantry is the "Andrastian Cult" as the mages themselves put it.  

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Asdara wrote...
It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.

Great. Another speculation under the blanket of factual event.

Blanket of factual event???  Asdara said "could be" which is pretty cleary an indication of speculation.  Is it a language problem? 

And I tend to think she's not as it make no sense for her decendants and pupils to teach the hating of magic. The Chantry is the "Andrastian Cult" as the mages themselves put it. 

It's been quite a while since she died.  People and attitudes can change wildly over time.  I have no idea what angle BioWare will decide to take with it, or if they'll even expand on it any further at all, but the current dogma of the Chantry doesn't have to be the deciding factor.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 17 mai 2012 - 04:23 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Asdara wrote...
It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.

Great. Another speculation under the blanket of factual event.

Blanket of factual event???  Asdara said "could be" which is pretty cleary an indication of speculation.  Is it a language problem?

"Could be" is indication of speculation.
 " - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position "  is not speculation. It's a statement of fact. 

 

GavrielKay wrote...

And I tend to think she's not as it make no sense for her decendants and pupils to teach the hating of magic. The Chantry is the "Andrastian Cult" as the mages themselves put it. 

It's been quite a while since she died.  People and attitudes can change wildly over time.  I have no idea what angle BioWare will decide to take with it, or if they'll even expand on it any further at all, but the current dogma of the Chantry doesn't have to be the deciding factor.

And we know nothing about people and attiudes changes wildly over time. There is no socialogist who study and record people behavious over thousands of years. You can assume all you want and it still doesn't change the fact that the mages were the one who responsible for the destruction of the Arlathan Elves, sacrificing hundred of elves, enslaving weaker tribes and hated by the Andrastians. You could ask Marethari if you don't believe the Chantry..

[Asdara]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Asdara wrote...

It could be that she was a mage, or it could be that she simply enlisted mages to fight alongside her - they obviously had some magic somewhere to pull down the Imperium - barring the Maker himself razing it to the ground, which clearly didn't happen or the entire Imperium would have fallen, not just the Southern part as Fenris points out is the case.

Could be or could be not.

Asdara wrote...

I tend to think that her being "part of the Imperium" for the fact that Ferelden was one of their lands is rather weak reason to say she couldn't have been also a mage and fighting against "her own" - When Ferelden was under Orlais it didn't stop them from rebelling and considering themselves Ferelden first. It is entirely possible for people to revolt against "their own" government and/or social structure,

When Ferelden was under Orlais, Andraste was already dead. So it's not the issue with mage leading peasants, slaves and barbarian anymore. The mages were decisively defeated and driven away from the south and Orlais had turn into fully established independant country under a NON-MAGE monarch. .

Asdara wrote...


and it's very likely that Andraste, as a slave and a person born in a province of that overreaching empire didn't consider herself a "Tevinter." People born in the second Carthage could have considered themselves Roman and they could also have considered themselves not-Roman enough to support Rome. It's happened.

She was a slave. There is no written histroy could dispute that. And it's logical. Still doesn't say anything about she being a mage. Only possibility that cannot be proven as definite truth. 

Asdara wrote...



It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.

Great. Another speculation under the blanket of factual event. 

Asdara wrote...




I tend to think she was a mage myself, because it feeds the fire of the Mage vs. Chantry conflict that is being stage set for us in this series. It is a twist that makes enough sense that it would be a huge resist vs. temptation not to use it at some point in the series. So strictly from a writing perspective, I would say she's more likely mage than not - or at least the speculation about her being one will be so impossible to disprove/prove that the conflict will at some point exist.

And I tend to think she's not as it make no sense for her decendants and pupils to teach the hating of magic. The Chantry is the "Andrastian Cult" as the mages themselves put it.  

As I blanket statement I will point out that yes I was speculating which is why I used words like "could be" and "might be" and other word choices that should clearly indicate that I am merely musing about these possibilities.  I got the sense that was what we were doing here.  

Question: does she have "descendants" ?  I don't recall anything mentioned of children from her... although I must admit it's been a while since I combed through the codex entries in any kind of thorough manner.  

Also, my last bit of conjecture on why I lean towards her being a mage has little do so with lore and more to do with story-spinning as a craft and how one can use twists to heighten conflict atmosphere.  A writer leaving an open door by being vauge about a historical figure and making the sources of information on that figure all come from a single perspective (more or less, as has been pointed out, that of the Chantry) might choose to activate that character at a later point with "new" information from an opposing viewpoint that could call into question what is already "known."  That's all I was saying.  

Let us not forget that there is already some evidence of an opposing viewpoint, as the Tevinter Chantry has a somewhat different intepretation of how mages should be percieved.  Now that could be entirely self-serving and nothing more, or it could be that they have a legitimate reason to believe that their intepretation is the more accurate of the two.  


We won't actually know until we know, and I'm pretty sure that if the writers are as clever as they've been up to this point, even then there will be room for speculation and intepretation.  That's what makes the lore of DA so interesting.

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

"Could be" is indication of speculation.
 " - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position "  is not speculation. It's a statement of fact. 

Any ideas (or statements) that are build upon speculations, are speculations themselves. I don't see how that is hard to understand.
 

You can assume all you want and it still doesn't change the fact that the mages were the one who responsible for the destruction of the Arlathan Elves, sacrificing hundred of elves, enslaving weaker tribes and hated by the Andrastians. You could ask Marethari if you don't believe the Chantry..

As for the bolded....

Yes, lets ask the Elven mage Keeper how mages are responsible for the destruction of her people...

/sarcasm

While i'm sure she would agree that mages did do it. She would also point out that is was the Magisters and Archon of Tevinter that did most of it. Also, that all mages can't be judged by the acts of a few, but we could take away many lessons about power and corruption from that act.

Modifié par Urzon, 17 mai 2012 - 06:54 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Asdara wrote...
As I blanket statement I will point out that yes I was speculating which is why I used words like "could be" and "might be" and other word choices that should clearly indicate that I am merely musing about these possibilities.  I got the sense that was what we were doing here.

I am well aware. That' is why I dont try to dispute your claim. But someone after you tried to nitpick every text I wrote in order to find the flaw of my argument. So I responded to her/him.  

Asdara wrote...

Question: does she have "descendants" ?  I don't recall anything mentioned of children from her... although I must admit it's been a while since I combed through the codex entries in any kind of thorough manner.

Yes she had sons who were believed to have died in civil wars after Maferath's death. Refer to Andraste's codex entry.

Asdara wrote...


Let us not forget that there is already some evidence of an opposing viewpoint, as the Tevinter Chantry has a somewhat different intepretation of how mages should be percieved.  Now that could be entirely self-serving and nothing more, or it could be that they have a legitimate reason to believe that their intepretation is the more accurate of the two.

Until we have records from the Tervinter Chantry, we have nothing else to prove. 

Asdara wrote...



We won't actually know until we know, and I'm pretty sure that if the writers are as clever as they've been up to this point, even then there will be room for speculation and intepretation.  That's what makes the lore of DA so interesting.

That's what I'm saying. I was just pissed at some people who could speculate Andraste as mage but could not accept my speculation that she could be a tervinter magister as well. It's get more annoying when they try to use lore and factual evidence to dismiss my speculation. ( I'm not saying you or whykikyouwhy or Ethereal Writer. In fact Ethereal Writer make a solid case worthy to study further. Even then he admited, he still need more information in DA 3 or future DA series. Now that's what I called objective review. )

Urzon wrote... 
Yes, lets ask the Elven mage Keeper how mages are responsible for the destruction of her people...

Perhaps you should read more records from Dalish Keepers first before you answer that. 

Urzon wrote... 

While i'm sure she would agree that mages did do it. She would also point out that is was the Magisters and Archon of Tevinter that did most of it. Also, that all mages can't be judged by the acts of a few, but we could take away many lessons about power and corruption from that act.

Doesn't matter. One or few "good" mages weren't the one who wrote the history when the Arlathan fell, when hundreds of elves were sacrificied and when the barbarian tribes and elves were enslaved. They were coward chickens who cannot even muster their pen to write something for future generation to study, Let alone be the leader of the rebellion that ultimately change the world. Why should this few "good" mages  deserve any credit?.  The chantry teaches that magic is a curse for 900 hundred years and no "good" mages ever bold enough to write anything against it. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 07:42 .