98 réponses à ce sujet

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Perhaps you should read more records from Dalish Keepers first before you answer that. 

I was being sarcastic. You were making a point that mages and magic (collectively?) were responsible for the downfall of the elvish empire. Then you said to ask Marethari (who is a mage herself) if you didn't believe the Chantry.

I guess sarcasm doesn't do well over the internet. Shame on me then.

Doesn't matter. One or few "good" mages weren't the one who wrote the history when the Arlathan fell, when hundreds of elves were sacrificied and when the barbarian tribes and elves were enslaved. They were coward chickens who cannot even muster their pen to write something for future generation to study, Let alone be the leader of the rebellion that ultimately change the world. Why should this few "good" mages  deserve any credit?.  The chantry teaches that magic is a curse for 900 hundred years and no "good" mages ever bold enough to write anything against it. 

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in this statement....

Andraste had nothing to do with the fall of the elvish empire, and even if she was a mage; why should she be judges on the acts of others from centuries ago?

We never denied that the Tevinter mages didn't sacrifice hundred of slaves for rituals. We simply said that those were Tevinter mages/Magisters/Archons, and all mages born in the Imperium aren't automatically Tevinter mages. That would be like saying everyone person born in Ferelden, during the Orlaisian occuption, would automatically be Orlaisian.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in this statement.... 

Andraste had nothing to do with the fall of the elvish empire, and even if she was a mage; why should she be judges on the acts of others from centuries ago?

Because people will not follow a leader who's origin was from the group they oppose.  William Wallace was scottish and not english. If Wallace was english, then why would the scottish follow him to rebel against England? What was the reason for Wallace to fight for the independence of Scotland? It's the same with Andraste. What is the reason for Andraste to fight for the independence of barbarian tribes and elves if she was a mage? Historically, she was a barbarian slave and people accepted her as one of their own. But by claiming her as mage, you take away those reason.. 

It's not about character's charisma and leadership only. It's about how people view the mages of that era. The elves hated the mages. The southern barbarian hated the mages.  What good of one's leadership and charisma if her followers hated her for being a mage? 

Urzon wrote...

We never denied that the Tevinter mages didn't sacrifice hundred of slaves for rituals. We simply said that those were Tevinter mages/Magisters/Archons, and all mages born in the Imperium aren't automatically Tevinter mages. That would be like saying everyone person born in Ferelden, during the Orlaisian occuption, would automatically be Orlaisian.

Ferelden didn't exist before Tervinter Imperium. The barbarian created Ferelden, Orlais, Free Marches and the elves were granted the Dales after the Imperium was defeated few hundred years later. Therefore, any mages born in Tervinter Imperium was a Tervinter mage . The Orlesian invaded Ferelden after Ferelden was created. And that's a different story because Ferelden already had their own rightful ruler. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 09:50 .

[Silfren]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could. [/quote]
The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  [/quote]

I never once said they were proof, so you can cease and desist with refuting claims I didn't make, if you please.  I said that these existing bits of lore were the EVIDENCE that those of us who believe Andraste was a mage base our THEORY on.  We'e not saying it's an indisputable fact, but pointing out that we're not just randomly leaping at straws, but basing our ideas on available lore. 

[quote]Sacred Fantasywrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...

Why would the elves trust mages who enslaved and sacrificed for blood?  Um, that supports my argument of Andraste not being a Tevinter magister, firstly, but even if I were actually arguing that Andraste were a Magister, it still supports my argument, since I specifically pointed to the example of a Magister who was directly opposed to the other Magisters' practices.  Elves and other slaves who saw a magister speaking out and taking action AGAINST the others are going to see that she is on their side.[/quote]  
So you agree why I could also SPECULATE she being a Tervinter Magister? A tervinter magister had more credible political position to influence slaves and barbarian than an unknown mage.[/quote]

Sure you can speculate on it.  I don't think there's a shred of compelling evidence in favor of that position, however.  That Andraste was a slave taken captive from Ferelden is generally taken as a fact.  I've never known it to be disputed.  That she was a Tevinter (again, it's TEvinter, not TERvinter) is a highly untenable claim.

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
But again, I wasn't making that argument, just pointing out that it was actually a plausible idea, even though I think the available lore clearly refutes that Andraste was a Magister, though it does appear that she was indeed a mage.
[/quote]
And you still want to talk about lore when the lore never stated anywhere she's being a mage?[/quote]

Poor wording on my part.  I do firmly believe Andraste was a mage, and I have come to this conclusion because I think the lore supports it.  But it cannot be said, just yet, with irrefutable certainty, so "it does appear she was indeed a mage" is probably definitive a stance than I should be taking right now.  But I never claimed that the lore stated outright that she was a mage.  I have only pointed to lore that suggests she was, and separate lore that supports that claim.  Not to mention images of Andraste statues exactly positioned to show her as though wielding a magical flame, which cannot in any way be a mere coincidence.

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Seriously? You can't see that people who were used to being abused by powerful mages wouldn't embrace a mage whose words and actions both made it abundantly clear that she did not believe that magic gave anyone the right to enslave another? Andraste didn't merely toss around pretty words of solidarity. She backed up her words by acting in direct opposition to the Imperium. Think about it. A mage turns out to be one of them, because she was a slave too. For all that she was a mage, and a powerful one, she was on THEIR side. That would be a powerful symbol for people to get behind.[/quote]
No I can't see. Why would the elves and barbarians trusted  word from mages who were the one responsible  for Arlathan Elves holocaust and mass murdered at Golden City hundred years earlier. The hatred towards mages is evident with the Chantry teaching.[/quote]

Firstly, we don't know exactly what happened at the Golden City.  Right now the best information we have on it is Chantry doctrine, which is not the most objective source in the world.  Secondly, MAGES themselves were not responsible for the carnage you refer to, but Magisters in particular.  Mage =/= Magister, and Magister =/= all mages, everywhere.  I'm pointing to a situation wherein Andraste's status as a mage was secondary to her positions against slavery and magic dominating others to their injury.  You're forgetting that at one time, all elves were mages, so they would have us believe.  So elves would not have an innate distrust of mages just for being mages, as you imply here.  They would have an innate distrust of magisters.  I'm saying that if Andraste was preaching against slavery and magical abuses, then her own status as a mage would either have had no bearing on how others saw her, or likely it would have just reinforced their willingness to rally to her.  I don't see what's difficult to understand about this, because I can see the appeal that would be found in a mage who loudly spoke out against magical abuses and went to war against mages whose abuses were rampant.  

"The hatred toward mages is evident with the Chantry teaching."  Um, no.  Just as the Bible cannot be used as proof of itself, so can Chantry teaching not be used as proof of its own doctrine.  I think it could be argued that hatred toward mages is heavily reinforced, if not caused, by Chantry doctrine, but we cannot use Chantry doctrine as proof of why mages are hated.  Not when the Chantry has a vested interest in maintaining that doctrine in order to justify its own power base, among other things.


[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
And it's just not even remotely possible that a mage might have come along, believed that the Imperium's institution of slavery was wrong, and had the personal power (speaking in terms of charismatic appeal) to rally people to her cause? [/quote] 
Since when a mage could understand how the common folk sufering? Throughout the history mages are proven to be ruthless uncompromise lunatic people. They're ruthless with their neighbouring Arlathan Elves. They' enslaved weaker tribes and mostly elves. They sacrificed hundreds of elves to enter the Golden City. That's what mages were in Pre-ages. They didn't give a **** about non-mages. The weaker mage had no place in that era. It's "dog eat dog" situation. And those weaker mages who couldn't stand cannot survived living with the slaves and barbarians. Because the non-mage slaves hated mages. And I repeat again, the hatred is evident with the Chantry teaching.[/quote]

I'll just point to what I wrote above this, about both mages vs. Magisters and your insistence that because the Chantry says something, it must be true.  You're conflating mage with Magister, and if you insist on framing the discussion this way, there's little point in continuing. You are, not to put too fine a point on it, simply incorrect.  The lore doesn't simply not support your position, it directly refutes it.  

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...

It couldn't possibly have been that weaker mages were prone to being enslaved along with others, and that one of their number turned out to have the gifts necessary to foment a rebellion that went on to be successful?[/quote]

So now you are suggesting, the rebellion were from a number of weaker slave mages? That's not in the codex. The codex mention the barbarian from south with support with the elves.[/quote]

NO.  I'm not suggesting that, not at all.  I'm saying that we DO know that Tevinter Magisters have no qualms about enslaving weaker mages, and from there suggesting that Andraste might have been one of those enslaved mages, who turned out to have power enough to start a rebellion--I think this might especially be true if Andraste were young enough when she was enslaved that no magical ability had yet manifested.  I'm in no way saying that the rebellion was made up predominantly of mages, not at all.  I do think it's likely that there were mages within the ranks of Andraste's armies.


[quote]Sacred Fantasy...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
The message was not "magic is evil and forbidden and hurts people no matter what." Andraste's message was "Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him." If it was strictly a war of non-mages against mages, rather than a rebellion against corrupt mages using their power to enslave and dominate, then the former message is what would have carried the day. But it isn't. And the second message actually does make more sense to have come from a mage herself, since it carries no inherent condemnation of magic itself, as one would expect from someone who had been waging war to cast down mages, rather than evil, corrupt mages.[/quote]
That message could be intrepreted as condemnation of magic in subtle manner and interpreted as such by the chantry. Your version of intrepretation is your own making that doesn't exist in game world.[/quote]

Dude.  ALL interpretations are of people's "own making."  I'm not claiming anything as fact, but you know what?  You are flat out wrong to say it doesn't exist in the game world.  I can only assume what you mean by that is that my interpretation is not supported by the game lore, and you, sir, are dead wrong on that count.  Every single thing I have posited has support in the lore. You may not find it compelling, but that's based on YOUR interpretation, which is also of your own making, and not the lore itself.

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
And the Chantry never forbid the practicing of all magic
[/quote]
Yes they did. They outlaw magic in 1:1 Divine.  You know it  was forbidden. But you purposely dismiss it as you dismiss all the chantry's sources as bias. Your twisted "educated guesses" are  the only fact to you. It's you the one who twisted lore and history to make the mages look like a cute innocent harmless teddy bear.[/quote]

Don't tell me what I do and don't know, if you please.  That is the height of rudeness. 

Show me where it says the Chantry forbid any and all magic in 1:1 Divine, please.  The Chantry has a history of taking a hypocritical and extremist position on magic, and seems to have grown progressively worse over the centuries, but I'm unaware of any explicit prohibitions against ALL magic.  Especially not given that mages have always proven useful to the Chantry whenever it needed some magical fireballs lobbed at an enemy, and it's kind of hard to do that if all magic is expressly forbidden.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Urzon wrote...
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in this statement.... 

Andraste had nothing to do with the fall of the elvish empire, and even if she was a mage; why should she be judges on the acts of others from centuries ago?

Because people will not follow a leader who's origin was from the group they oppose.  William Wallace was scottish and not english. If Wallace was english, then why would the scottish follow him to rebel against England? What was the reason for Wallace to fight for the independence of Scotland? It's the same with Andraste. What is the reason for Andraste to fight for the independence of barbarian tribes and elves if she was a mage? Historically, she was a barbarian slave and people accepted her as one of their own. But by claiming her as mage, you take away those reason.. 

It's not about character's charisma and leadership only. It's about how people view the mages of that era. The elves hated the mages. The southern barbarian hated the mages.  What good of one's leadership and charisma if her followers hated her for being a mage? 

Being a mage is but one potential aspect of who Andraste may have been. She was also from a "barbarian" tribe, and she was also a slave. Those two reasons may have been enough to gain her the support and allegiance of the enslaved - those seeking to rise from their situation and attain freedom.

It's human nature to mistrust, especially those who may be from a group that is despised, loathed or feared, but when people are in desperate situations, and they see someone who is working against the established rule (even if that person is seemingly from that established rule - in this case, being a mage), and that person looks to have a chance to achieve his/her goals, people can and will follow that individual. It takes a myriad of things to surpass the mstrust and gain the loyalty of the people - charisma, a record of small victories, force of arms, etc, but it is entirely possible for people to put their faith in someone that originated, in some capacity, from the group they seek to break away from.

Elves and barbarians may have hated mages from the Imperium, but didn't both groups have magic users amongst their own kind? Just being a mage does not make someone automatically part of the ruling order. And it may very well be that following a mage would make sense - if you're going to fight against a nation/group that has magic at its disposal, would you not want to arm yourself accordingly?

Again - desperate situations. People can be inclined to swallow mistrust, doubt and fear in order to unite under a common cause. They can be inclined to take the hand of someone who might be perceived as "the enemy" if that person can provide the means to achieve their goals.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.

The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  

 
Please note the bolded part - Silfren states "...that were said to be proof..." The operative words being "said to be," meaning that some within the DA-verse itself were using those events as a way to support the Maker heeding Andraste's call. Again, this discussion (last I checked) is centered around speculation, and as such, folks are going to pose theories and cite lore, codex entries, dialogue from NPCs, etc.

If you want to discuss speculation that's fine with me. But don't try to make your argument as a fact when trying to counter my speculation. ( I'm not saying you )  I hate it when people feel they're the only one who can speculate but dismiss other people's opinion who disagree with them. Speculation can be anything. You can speculate Andraste as a marvel comics character's wonder woman too if you have enough speculative evidence to support your case. There's nothing wrong about it. But when it comes to fact, you better make sure your fact is true and not about possibility this and that. FACT has nothing to do with Possibility..

You know what?  You are making it difficult to keep things civil.  From what I've read, NOBODY here has stated that it is a fact that Andraste was a mage.  We are saying that we think there is enough evidence in the game to support the theory that she was.  The only one here talking about facts is YOU.  YOU are the one who has said we're claiming it as a fact.  How about you knock off this business of putting words in our mouths?

Yes, it's speculation.  Not one of us has denied that it is.  What IS a fact is that there are references in DA lore that hint that Andraste may have been a mage.  That is where the rest of us are reaching our conclusions--it is not something that some random forum member made up one day that the rest of us grabbed and took off with into the wild blue yonder.  IT. IS. IN. THE. LORE. The lore in the game puts forth the possibility that Andraste was a mage.  That IS a fact.  It can't be made any clearer than that: it is an incontrovertible fact that game lore hints that Andraste could have been a mage.  What we players do with that tidbit of info is up to us.

As for your own speculation, sorry, but arguing against your claim and using lore to do so isn't the same thing as dismissing your speculation out of hand as if we don't believe you have the right your own opinion as you insinuate we're doing.  Nobody has claimed you can't make your own speculations.  But that doesn't mean we don't get to challenge your speculation if we don't find it compelling.  Rather like what you've been doing to us, although you haven't been doing it in an honest manner.

No, we can't speculate that Andraste was a Marvel Comics character.  You're not going to make a good case for yourself if you keep making statements like this that are asinine the extreme.  Our speculations are coming directly from the game lore itself, and all your protestations to the contrary are meaningless, given all we have to do is shove a link to a codex entry under your nose. 

Sacred Fantasy...
Well if you could point me one mage in that era who did symphatize the Arlathan Elves, then I'm willing to change my view on mages. And Yes I make a broad generalization. It dosn't matter because the general slaves and barbarians of that era hated all mages. And it's proven by the chantry teaching.

Unless I'm mistaken, the elves of Arlathan were all mages, if elven legend is true, so it's patently absurd for you to claim that elves hated mages.  Nor can you categorically state that barbarians hated all mages, as there is no lore to support it.  Again, magister =/= mage.

It is NOT proven by Chantry teaching.  Repeating that line over and over and over again won't make it true.   The Chantry came about some time after Andraste's death, as only one of many Andrastian/Maker cults extant at the time, and the simple fact of the matter is we have no clue how much Chantry doctirine actually has to do with what Andraste taught or the actual events that occurred during the overthrow of the Imperium.  We have only legends and Chantry doctrines--that come complete with their own Dissonant Verses, which alone should say something about how much the Chantry can be trusted with historical accuracy.  Especially not a full 900 years and more after its inception, when we know that a lot of records from those earlier days were lost, what with Blights and all.  Chantry teaching doesn't prove a thing.

[Silfren]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Asdara wrote...
It could even be that her husband was jealous of her magic powers (just as Fenris was jealous of his sister's) as much as the love of the Maker - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position - an argument that would have made itself after the practices of the Imperium were uncovered and thrown down.[/quote]
Great. Another speculation under the blanket of factual event. [/quote]

Blanket of factual event???  Asdara said "could be" which is pretty cleary an indication of speculation.  Is it a language problem? [/quote]
"Could be" is indication of speculation.
 " - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position "  is not speculation. It's a statement of fact. 

No.  Those were not two separate statements, the first one being speculation and the second being an assertion of fact.  It was all part of a single statement of speculation.

I don't know a gentler, more polite way to write it--you are simply incorrect here, and it is clearly due to a language barrier issue.  She didn't say what you think she did.  The "and thus..." bit was an outgrowth of the "could be" beginning.  Not sure how to explain this in a way that makes sense if you don't understand the English construction.

 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and  [/quote]
The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  [/quote]

I never once said they were proof, so you can cease and desist with refuting claims I didn't make,  [/quote]
No? Then perhaps you should be more careful with how you structure your wordings like this one"


[quote]Silfren wrote..


the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.
[/quote]
It sound that you have intention to make it a proof. And don't accuse my reading comprehension. I'm well aware you added "were said to be" before your statement. I'm questioning your motive for writing in such manner.  

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Sure you can speculate on it.  I don't think there's a shred of compelling evidence in favor of that position, however.  That Andraste was a slave taken captive from Ferelden is generally taken as a fact.  I've never known it to be disputed.  That she was a Tevinter (again, it's TEvinter, not TERvinter) is a highly untenable claim.[/quote]
And why was she being a Tevinter is highly untenavle claim given the fact that Ferelden as a nation didn't exist at that time?

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
Poor wording on my part.  I do firmly believe Andraste was a mage, and I have come to this conclusion because I think the lore supports it.  But it cannot be said, just yet, with irrefutable certainty, so "it does appear she was indeed a mage" is probably definitive a stance than I should be taking right now.  But I never claimed that the lore stated outright that she was a mage.  I have only pointed to lore that suggests she was, and separate lore that supports that claim.  Not to mention images of Andraste statues exactly positioned to show her as though wielding a magical flame, which cannot in any way be a mere coincidence.[/quote]
Well then, until you have irrefutable proof that she being a mage, I suggest you stop using sentences like," were said to be PROOF bla bla rubbish."  It's misleading. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Firstly, we don't know exactly what happened at the Golden City.  Right now the best information we have on it is Chantry doctrine, which is not the most objective source in the world.  [/quote]
Then do you have any other objective source beside your "educated guess"? /Sarcasm


[quote]Silfren wrote...

Secondly, MAGES themselves were not responsible for the carnage you refer to, but Magisters in particular.  Mage =/= Magister, and Magister =/= all mages, everywhere. [/quote]
Yes they were. It was the mages who appointed the magister in the circle of magi.
[quote]
From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium to enter the Fade, developing magical talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy[1].[/quote]
Refer to Tevinter Imperium codex entry. 

The magisters cannot work alone without the mages.
[quote]
"When they breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearing disease and the loss of immortality the humans would bring, chose to flee rather than to fight. With magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter Imperium marched easily through Arlathan, destroying homes, galleries, and amphitheaters that had existed for ages. Our people were rounded up as slaves and taken from their ancestral home, the quickening driving itself through their veins and making them mortal." [/quote]
--The tale of “The Fall of Arlathan,” as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin Tribe of the Dalish elves.

The Magisters did far more worse than that:
[quote]
"It is said that the Tevinter magisters used their great and destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, removing it from the world just as it was soon to be removed from the minds and hearts of its people. All records and artifacts lost to them forever, the whole of elven lore was trapped in the fading minds of a people who would soon forget what it meant to be an elf.”[/quote]
--The tale of “The Fall of Arlathan,” as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin Tribe of the Dalish elves.

  

[quote]Silfren wrote...


I'm pointing to a situation wherein Andraste's status as a mage was secondary to her positions against slavery and magic dominating others to their injury.  You're forgetting that at one time, all elves were mages, so they would have us believe.  So elves would not have an innate distrust of mages just for being mages, as you imply here. [/quote]
The Arlathan Elves were mages and they were all swallowed by the earth. The remining elves turn to mortal and loose their Arlathan's magical ability 
[quote]
Our people were rounded up as slaves and taken from their ancestral home, the quickening driving itself through their veins and making them mortal. The elves called to their ancient gods, but there was no answer.[/quote]

--The tale of “The Fall of Arlathan,” as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin Tribe of the Dalish elves.

[quote]
Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in millennia, elves were dying of natural causes. What's more, those elves that spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, quickened by the humans' brash and impatient lives. Many believed that our gods had judged us unworthy of eternal life and were casting us down. Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is the way the humans see our people in their cities today… punishment, perhaps, for our hubris of long ago? Horrified at the prospect of losing their way of life forever, the ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans for fear that this "quickening" effect would crumble their civilization.[/quote]
--The tale of “The Fall of Arlathan,” as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin Tribe of the Dalish elves.



[quote]Silfren wrote...



They would have an innate distrust of magisters.[/quote]
They would have an innate distrust of all mages 


[quote]Silfren wrote...




I'm saying that if Andraste was preaching against slavery and magical abuses, then her own status as a mage would either have had no bearing on how others saw her, or likely it would have just reinforced their willingness to rally to her.  I don't see what's difficult to understand about this, because I can see the appeal that would be found in a mage who loudly spoke out against magical abuses and went to war against mages whose abuses were rampant. [/quote]
You don't see because it's either 1. ) you refuse to see or 2.) you never read the elven records. or 3.) you believe that mages are cute innocent harmless teddy bear that makes the world a happy place. 


[quote]Silfren wrote...





"The hatred toward mages is evident with the Chantry teaching."  Um, no.  Just as the Bible cannot be used as proof of itself, so can Chantry teaching not be used as proof of its own doctrine. 
I think it could be argued that hatred toward mages is heavily reinforced, if not caused, by Chantry doctrine, but we cannot use Chantry doctrine as proof of why mages are hated.  Not when the Chantry has a vested interest in maintaining that doctrine in order to justify its own power base, among other things.[/quote]

 
Except that the Bible is not the Chant of Light. We have science today to re-evaluate our fact plus other historical evidences that are not affliated with the Church and archeology's proof. You don't get that in Thedas. You don't even have any other sources to compare with. So until you have other sources of information that could refute the Chantry's teaching, you have nothing to back up your claim.  And no, I'm not interested with your "educated guess"  

[quote]Silfren wrote...

I'll just point to what I wrote above this, about both mages vs. Magisters and your insistence that because the Chantry says something, it must be true.  You're conflating mage with Magister, and if you insist on framing the discussion this way, there's little point in continuing. You are, not to put too fine a point on it, simply incorrect.  The lore doesn't simply not support your position, it directly refutes it.[/quote]
Nope. Refer to my above reply. The lore doesn't refute it. You on the hand have zero evidence to support your claim. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
NO.  I'm not suggesting that, not at all.  I'm saying that we DO know that Tevinter Magisters have no qualms about enslaving weaker mages, and from there suggesting that Andraste might have been one of those enslaved mages, who turned out to have power enough to start a rebellion--I think this might especially be true if Andraste were young enough when she was enslaved that no magical ability had yet manifested.  I'm in no way saying that the rebellion was made up predominantly of mages, not at all.  I do think it's likely that there were mages within the ranks of Andraste's armies.
[/quote]
if you stated it that way. then I have no problem with that.


[quote]Silfren wrote...
Dude.  ALL interpretations are of people's "own making."  I'm not claiming anything as fact, but you know what?  You are flat out wrong to say it doesn't exist in the game world.  I can only assume what you mean by that is that my interpretation is not supported by the game lore, and you, sir, are dead wrong on that count.  Every single thing I have posited has support in the lore. You may not find it compelling, but that's based on YOUR interpretation, which is also of your own making, and not the lore itself.[/quote]
The only lore you provided are wyne's gift and some reference about natural disaster which are hardly  evidences of anything. 
The Chantry's interpretation were widely taught to all Andrastians depending their locations and system. There is more than one Chantry system. We don't know the Tevinter Chantry yet. Your interpretation however, are useless since only Anders, the Libertarian and other minor fraternities would agree  

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Don't tell me what I do and don't know, if you please.  That is the height of rudeness.

Show me where it says the Chantry forbid any and all magic in 1:1 Divine, please.  The Chantry has a history of taking a hypocritical and extremist position on magic, and seems to have grown progressively worse over the centuries, but I'm unaware of any explicit prohibitions against ALL magic.  Especially not given that mages have always proven useful to the Chantry whenever it needed some magical fireballs lobbed at an enemy, and it's kind of hard to do that if all magic is expressly forbidden.

[/quote]
I have shown and link it to you in the other thread, and I'm not going to spoon feed you again. Find it your yourself under Dragon Age Chronology. It's easy to find. The Chantry did forbid the uses of magic. The  Nevarran Accord was signed to lift the ban under conditional terms, which you conveniently dismiss. I have no interest to repeat the same argument again and again.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 12:17 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...
No.  Those were not two separate statements, the first one being speculation and the second being an assertion of fact.  It was all part of a single statement of speculation. 

I don't know a gentler, more polite way to write it--you are simply incorrect here, and it is clearly due to a language barrier issue.  She didn't say what you think she did.  The "and thus..." bit was an outgrowth of the "could be" beginning.  Not sure how to explain this in a way that makes sense if you don't understand the English construction.

You do not have to speak on her/his behalf. He/She had already explain it earlier and I'm fine with that. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 12:22 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Being a mage is but one potential aspect of who Andraste may have been. She was also from a "barbarian" tribe, and she was also a slave. Those two reasons may have been enough to gain her the support and allegiance of the enslaved - those seeking to rise from their situation and attain freedom.

I have no problem with that. I accepted the lore as it is and it's logical. But when you claim her as mage it become difficult, given the condition and tension between mages and non-mages on that era. 

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's human nature to mistrust, especially those who may be from a group that is despised, loathed or feared, but when people are in desperate situations, and they see someone who is working against the established rule (even if that person is seemingly from that established rule - in this case, being a mage), and that person looks to have a chance to achieve his/her goals, people can and will follow that individual. It takes a myriad of things to surpass the mstrust and gain the loyalty of the people - charisma, a record of small victories, force of arms, etc, but it is entirely possible for people to put their faith in someone that originated, in some capacity, from the group they seek to break away from.

Elves and barbarians may have hated mages from the Imperium, but didn't both groups have magic users amongst their own kind? Just being a mage does not make someone automatically part of the ruling order. And it may very well be that following a mage would make sense - if you're going to fight against a nation/group that has magic at its disposal, would you not want to arm yourself accordingly?

Again - desperate situations. People can be inclined to swallow mistrust, doubt and fear in order to unite under a common cause. They can be inclined to take the hand of someone who might be perceived as "the enemy" if that person can provide the means to achieve their goals.

The barbarians may have few shamans with them and the elves may have few mages as well but we can not confirm that. It's very hard to find any records that favor mages in pre-ages to Divine era because all mages were Tevinter mage. You don't get to see any other nations before Andraste's death. They simply didn't exist at that time. I just wish we have more supporting records from the Tevinter, the Arlathan elves, ancient dwarves and neutral parties which are not affliated with the Chantry.   

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 12:36 .

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

No? Then perhaps you should be more careful with how you structure your wordings like this one"

Silfren wrote..


the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.

It sound that you have intention to make it a proof. And don't accuse my reading comprehension. I'm well aware you added "were said to be" before your statement. I'm questioning your motive for writing in such manner.  

The Chantry, itself, states that the Maker favored Andraste's war by bringing earthquakes, along with other natural disasters. It was worded like that because the Chantry does believe that's fact.

Taken from the Andraste: Bride of the Maker codex...


She begged the Maker to return, to save His children from the cruelty of the Imperium. Reluctantly, the Maker agreed to give man another chance.

Andraste went back to her husband, Maferath, and told him all that the Maker had revealed to her. Together, they rallied the Alamarri and marched forth against the mage-lords of the Imperium, and the Maker was with them.

The Maker's sword was creation itself: fire and flood, famine and earthquake. Everywhere they went, Andraste sang to the people of the Maker, and they heard her. The ranks of Andraste's followers grew until they were a vast tide washing over the Imperium. And when Maferath saw that the people loved Andraste and not him, a worm grew within his heart, gnawing upon it.

Modifié par Urzon, 17 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...
The Chantry, itself, states that the Maker favored Andraste's war by bringing earthquakes, along with other natural disasters. It was worded like that because the Chantry does believe that's fact.

Taken from the Andraste: Bride of the Maker codex...


She begged the Maker to return, to save His children from the cruelty of the Imperium. Reluctantly, the Maker agreed to give man another chance.

Andraste went back to her husband, Maferath, and told him all that the Maker had revealed to her. Together, they rallied the Alamarri and marched forth against the mage-lords of the Imperium, and the Maker was with them.

The Maker's sword was creation itself: fire and flood, famine and earthquake. Everywhere they went, Andraste sang to the people of the Maker, and they heard her. The ranks of Andraste's followers grew until they were a vast tide washing over the Imperium. And when Maferath saw that the people loved Andraste and not him, a worm grew within his heart, gnawing upon it.

There is no explicit proof that the Maker exist. So until we can prove that the Maker does indeed exist, I would not conclude that as evidence. Jesus was said to have resurrected the dead, Moses was said to cross the Blood Sea, does that mean magic exist? Even with given technology we cannot prove such events ever occur or God exist.  

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
"Could be" is indication of speculation.
 " - and thus built the Chantry doctrine to restrict mages and disallow them from holding noble position "  is not speculation. It's a statement of fact.

Um, we're talking about a fantasy role playing game last I checked.  There's precious few "statements of fact" to be had here.  You make more declarative statements than most, which is a bit ironic to me.  Asdara's statement on the other hand was clearly indicated as speculation - at least clear enough for anyone who isn't trying to use hyperbole as a debate tactic.

You can assume all you want and it still doesn't change the fact that the mages were the one who responsible for the destruction of the Arlathan Elves, sacrificing hundred of elves, enslaving weaker tribes and hated by the Andrastians. You could ask Marethari if you don't believe the Chantry..

See, there you are using that word "fact" as though it meant anything in this game world.  All that needs to happen for your fact to melt away is for the game devs to say:  "ha! we fooled you, it was really a long lost race of djinns" and that would suddenly be game"fact."  And before you accuse me of making that up, let me just say, YES, I made it up.  But the whole thing is made up and is as constant or changeable as the writers wish it to be.  You should quit using the word "fact" to describe how you interpret what's presented to us by fantasy writers.

We can read the lore and build a picture of the "past" using what's written and who wrote it as guides.  If your black view on mages isn't shared by everyone, and some of those others can find game lore to support their view, then that makes it just as valid as yours.

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Doesn't matter. One or few "good" mages weren't the one who wrote the history when the Arlathan fell, when hundreds of elves were sacrificied and when the barbarian tribes and elves were enslaved. They were coward chickens who cannot even muster their pen to write something for future generation to study, Let alone be the leader of the rebellion that ultimately change the world. Why should this few "good" mages  deserve any credit?.  The chantry teaches that magic is a curse for 900 hundred years and no "good" mages ever bold enough to write anything against it. 

Well, someone wrote that Andraste might have been a mage and I think all we find is a burned copy.  So, perhaps that's what happened to all the writings of the good mages?

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Because people will not follow a leader who's origin was from the group they oppose.

More assumptions dressed up as facts?  Perhaps you see it so often in the posts of others because you do it so often yourself.

People will follow others for lots of reasons.  Loyalty, greed, desperation, charisma...  If Andraste were fighting the same cause the slaves were and appeared to have a chance at success, why shouldn't people be swayed to her cause regardless of where she was from?  Slaves don't have much to lose after all, a chance at freedom could well have seemed better than waiting their turn at sacrifice.

What good of one's leadership and charisma if her followers hated her for being a mage?

Perhaps they didn't know she was a mage.  Or perhaps many folks were able to see that mages aren't a homogenous group?

[Asdara]

edit: oh bloody... I messed up the quotations.  Again.  Supid multi-replying.  I must apologize for this being such a mish-mash - I'm trying to clean it up... I hope it's readable.  I do so badly with breaking up quotes into parts.  

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Question: does she have "descendants" ?  I don't recall anything mentioned of children from her... although I must admit it's been a while since I combed through the codex entries in any kind of thorough manner.

Yes she had sons who were believed to have died in civil wars after Maferath's death. Refer to Andraste's codex entry.


 

Thanks for the information, I did not catch that (or have caught it years ago and have since forgotten - which seems more likely lol)

Asdara wrote...



We won't actually know until we know, and I'm pretty sure that if the writers are as clever as they've been up to this point, even then there will be room for speculation and intepretation.  That's what makes the lore of DA so interesting.

That's what I'm saying. I was just pissed at some people who could speculate Andraste as mage but could not accept my speculation that she could be a tervinter magister as well. It's get more annoying when they try to use lore and factual evidence to dismiss my speculation. ( I'm not saying you or whykikyouwhy or Ethereal Writer. In fact Ethereal Writer make a solid case worthy to study further. Even then he admited, he still need more information in DA 3 or future DA series. Now that's what I called objective review. )

I am (honestly) curious about how the speculation that she might have been a Tevinter Magister meshes with the slavery aspect.  Can you elaborate (or point me to where you've already elaborated - I'm checking this thread between finals writing so I easily might have skimmed it somewhere here, apologies for that if so).

 
Doesn't matter. One or few "good" mages weren't the one who wrote the history when the Arlathan fell, when hundreds of elves were sacrificied and when the barbarian tribes and elves were enslaved. They were coward chickens who cannot even muster their pen to write something for future generation to study, Let alone be the leader of the rebellion that ultimately change the world. Why should this few "good" mages  deserve any credit?.  The chantry teaches that magic is a curse for 900 hundred years and no "good" mages ever bold enough to write anything against it. 

It is possible that things were written that simply aren't floating around Ferelden or the Freemarches.  An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence all the time, but that is (again) simply speculative at this point.  I do think it has some basis in logic to assert that the contents of the libraries of Tevinter differ from those of devoted Chantry lands.  Or the lost libraries of ancient ruins somewhere can always offer something that wouldn't be found elsewhere.  Could be not though.  Again, we have to wait and see what we're going to be given from different pens over the long term, if anything.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Urzon wrote...
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in this statement.... 

Andraste had nothing to do with the fall of the elvish empire, and even if she was a mage; why should she be judges on the acts of others from centuries ago?
Because people will not follow a leader who's origin was from the group they oppose.  William Wallace was scottish and not english. If Wallace was english, then why would the scottish follow him to rebel against England? What was the reason for Wallace to fight for the independence of Scotland? It's the same with Andraste. What is the reason for Andraste to fight for the independence of barbarian tribes and elves if she was a mage? Historically, she was a barbarian slave and people accepted her as one of their own. But by claiming her as mage, you take away those reason.. 

It's not about character's charisma and leadership only. It's about how people view the mages of that era. The elves hated the mages. The southern barbarian hated the mages.  What good of one's leadership and charisma if her followers hated her for being a mage?

I have to quibble a bit here on a few points.  The elves did not hate "mages" generic catch-all group; they had their own mages who they did not hate, who they made their leaders actually of each clan (Keepers).  Now, I conceed that they hated "mages of the Imperium" - or maybe even the broader group of "human mages" - but I am not aware of any evidence that they hated all beings who had magical ability on the broadest level.  

The southern barbarians... eh, Mori speaks of Shamans and respected magic users among the tribes keeping traditional forms of magic alive.  Witches, yes, they hate - Witches of the Wild they fear and hate and have stories about - but again, when the magic users are among their own it might be a different story (I mean, if it was within the context of their cultural beliefs - they aren't all converts of the Chantry (and wouldn't have been pre-Andraste anyway, because there wasn't such a thing)).

Also, she could have hidden being a mage behind "acts of the Maker" in theory.  Nothing supports that other than a modern skeptisim about the intercession of the Divine into mundane matters, but it isn't impossible.

Urzon wrote...

We never denied that the Tevinter mages didn't sacrifice hundred of slaves for rituals. We simply said that those were Tevinter mages/Magisters/Archons, and all mages born in the Imperium aren't automatically Tevinter mages. That would be like saying everyone person born in Ferelden, during the Orlaisian occuption, would automatically be Orlaisian.

Ferelden didn't exist before Tervinter Imperium. The barbarian created Ferelden, Orlais, Free Marches and the elves were granted the Dales after the Imperium was defeated few hundred years later. Therefore, any mages born in Tervinter Imperium was a Tervinter mage . The Orlesian invaded Ferelden after Ferelden was created. And that's a different story because Ferelden already had their own rightful ruler. 

Well Poland only existed on and off through history; Germany didn't exist until like the 1800's - there were still Polish people, there were still German people - they were organized differently, but they still associated with a shared identity that was tied to that geographical region.  Just because Ferelden didn't become a kingdom until after the fall of the Imperium doesn't mean that an identity that was shared by people living in that area together didn't give them a sense of solidarity - or tribal cooperation or what-have-you.  They had enough identification with their clans to fight over dominance until the unification under Calanhad, for example.  

I think that Tevinter would consider them citizens of Tevinter, or at least provincials under the rule of Teventer (not sure what the structure for citizenship rights was or if we have something to extrapolate that from) - that does not mean that they considered themselves the same way.  They might have.  They also might not have.  Again, I make a comparison to Ancient Rome and its territories - sure, at some point every man was made an official citizen of Rome in a sweeping movement, but many people still identified themselves with where they were from.

I agree that Andraste being a mage of the Tevinter persuasion (even if she happened to be a slave) would make her an unlikely leadership figure.  Then again - just going down that road of speculation - Maf (whose name is hard to spell) was a leader of a tribe already (yes?) and she wedded him.  Now that could have provided a sufficient "in" for her if he was leading at first and she gradually gained the trust of those under him and eventually surpassed him in importance.  It isn't impossible for someone of the enemy faction to lead a rebellion of oppressed people against that faction - it's just a lot more unlikely without a specific set of circumstances working in their favor.  I tend to agree with you though that she would not have been leading such a rebellion if she was originating from the Tevinter Magus culture.

I find this whole discussion quite stimulating, but I would hope that it can maintain civility.  I also hope that the writers are paying attention, because there are some interesting viewpoints here on all sides that can either be elaborated on in future game lore or dispelled by it as they will.  I am hopeful that we never get a 100% clear picture of Andraste, because she's such an interesting historical religious figure and the entire game world works on knowing the truth of her better - would be a shame if our character(s) were the only ones who could figure it out - it would probably make us a new prophet or something silly.  Pass on that.  More hints would be great though.  

Modifié par Asdara, 17 mai 2012 - 04:45 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...
Um, we're talking about a fantasy role playing game last I checked.

Great than let's create more fantasy with pure baseless speculation, if that's the kind of thing you fancy so much. How about we start by fantasizing Andraste as Marvel Comic's Super Hero Wonder Woman?

GavrielKay wrote...

There's precious few "statements of fact" to be had here.  You make more declarative statements than most, which is a bit ironic to me.  Asdara's statement on the other hand was clearly indicated as speculation - at least clear enough for anyone who isn't trying to use hyperbole as a debate tactic.

And she/he  concluded it as a fact which wasn't her/his intention. And I can understand that. Therefore there is no need for you to speak on his/her behalf. You're not the one who wrote it.  .

GavrielKay wrote...


See, there you are using that word "fact" as though it meant anything in this game world.  All that needs to happen for your fact to melt away is for the game devs to say:  "ha! we fooled you, it was really a long lost race of djinns" and that would suddenly be game"fact."  And before you accuse me of making that up, let me just say, YES, I made it up.  But the whole thing is made up and is as constant or changeable as the writers wish it to be.  You should quit using the word "fact" to describe how you interpret what's presented to us by fantasy writers.

If the dev say it that then that what it is. There is no point to argue about it since it's their story.  However, what you did was dismissing what was written because it didn't suit your fairy tale. So how about you make your own thread at off-topic section and discuss your fairy tale as much as you want? You do know where off-topic section is?

GavrielKay wrote...



We can read the lore and build a picture of the "past" using what's written and who wrote it as guides.

Which you claimed as bias and dismissed in favor of your own made up fairy tale. 
 

GavrielKay wrote...

If your black view on mages isn't shared by everyone, and some of those others can find game lore to support their view, then that makes it just as valid as yours.

And yet there isn't  any valid white view on mages that can be verified and proven as fact. Every argument was based on speculation or worst fairy tale. I'm not saying everyone who disagree with me. Some people do have valid theory that worth to study further. Unfortunately we don't have much evidences to support it at the moment. And I have no problem accepting it. Other people however, twisted the lore and history and dismiss almost every written records because it's fantasy therefore it must be true regardless of lore and codex entries. 

[whykikyouwhy]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How about we start by fantasizing Andraste as Marvel Comic's Super Hero Wonder Woman?

Just as an aside... Wonder Woman is actually part of the DC Comics franchise.

[mousestalker]

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

[Asdara]

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

 Oh so very much do not want to see that!  I saw speculation once that Flemeth was actually Andraste (with no real basis at all, months and months back I think it was) and it was a horrifying concept to me.  /shudder

[Lenimph]

Asdara wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

 Oh so very much do not want to see that!  I saw speculation once that Flemeth was actually Andraste (with no real basis at all, months and months back I think it was) and it was a horrifying concept to me.  /shudder

I'm more for the idea that Leliana is the reincarnation or decedent of Andraste.  

[Asdara]

Lenimph wrote...

Asdara wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

 Oh so very much do not want to see that!  I saw speculation once that Flemeth was actually Andraste (with no real basis at all, months and months back I think it was) and it was a horrifying concept to me.  /shudder

I'm more for the idea that Leliana is the reincarnation or decedent of Andraste.  

Mmmyeah, not a fan of that idea either.  Some games I really like Leli, some games I want to leave her in Lothering.  I don't know if her intepretation of the beauty of the world around her and dreams she has as "the Maker speaking" is too much like what proportedly happened with Andraste.  The "conversation" seems one-sided hearing on Leli's part - Andraste supposedly had actual contact or audience or something substantial.  According to the Chantry beliefs and the stories related.  

[Brodoteau]

Maybe Andraste (the mage) was the prophet of the Maker, but that's because she was possessed by "the Maker" who was just a demon or spirit. So Andraste was actually an abomination.

[aries1001]

Fist, let me say how much I enjoy this discussion. And now for the comments:

As for what happened to the Golden/Blackened City we have what Corypheus says in Legacy: the goden city was already black, when they, the magisters from Tevinter, reached it.

As for who or what Andrate is or was, I agree that evidence suggests the possibility of her being a mage. If we say it is so, then it makes sense that certain chantry officials do not want Brother Genitivi to go to the mountain where Andraste's Ashes are kept - maybe someone is afraid that he'll reveal -cough-
certain secrets.

As for the chantry is it not unknown for religion and priests to use religion as a guise aka a dis-guise to cover their own ambitions for power, revenge etc. It is not unheard of that priests etc. take teachings of a prohet, say Andraste, and twist them for their own purposes....

[Lazy Jer]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How about we start by fantasizing Andraste as Marvel Comic's Super Hero Wonder Woman?

Just as an aside... Wonder Woman is actually part of the DC Comics franchise.

Is She Hulk still an option?