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[Silfren]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
The book you can gift to Wynne which already has been mentioned points out that some groups believe Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage, and  [/quote]
The book and natural disasters are speculative evidence. Not the proof.  [/quote]

I never once said they were proof, so you can cease and desist with refuting claims I didn't make,  [/quote]
No? Then perhaps you should be more careful with how you structure your wordings like this one"


[quote]Silfren wrote..


the available lore about her supports it: the earthquakes and other natural disasters that were said to be proof of the Maker favoring Andraste's war.  If natural disasters conveniently occurring at the proper time to wreak havoc on the Imperium during a war of conquest doesn't look like "exceptionally powerful mage at work" I don't know what could.
[/quote]
It sound that you have intention to make it a proof. And don't accuse my reading comprehension. I'm well aware you added "were said to be" before your statement. I'm questioning your motive for writing in such manner.  [/quote]

Not even close.  What I was saying there is that we have lore in the game that says that there were earthquakes and other natural disasters taking place while Andraste waged war on the Imperium, and the same codex that mentions this states that people took those natural disasters as proof that the Maker really was on their side.  I'm not making that claim, I'm pointing to in-game lore that makes it.  My wording was pretty clear, and the only thing I can guess is that there's a major language barrier issue preventing you from understanding it.  I can see that English is not your first language, but I don't really know how to go about making myself more easily understood for you.  My apologies.

Anyway, the only claim I am making in that quote is that I take the reports of natural disasters conveniently timed (and placed) to support Andraste's armies in their efforts against the Imperium as supporting evidence for the OTHER in-game lore that suggests she was a mage.  I find it a little bit tooooo convenient that the barbarian armies had natural phenomena happening at just the appropriate times to devastate their enemies (and apparently not also devastate the rebel armies, given that earthquakes and other such disasters usually don't discriminate).  Which is easier to believe?  That an invisible god would be hurtling chaos and death at the Tevinter armies, or that a woman with magic at her disposal would be using her magic to further her conquest?  In a story setting where the Maker is not proven but mages and the ability to control the elements is a proven part of that setting, I find the second one far more plausible.  Again, the lore supports it. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
Poor wording on my part.  I do firmly believe Andraste was a mage, and I have come to this conclusion because I think the lore supports it.  But it cannot be said, just yet, with irrefutable certainty, so "it does appear she was indeed a mage" is probably definitive a stance than I should be taking right now.  But I never claimed that the lore stated outright that she was a mage.  I have only pointed to lore that suggests she was, and separate lore that supports that claim.  Not to mention images of Andraste statues exactly positioned to show her as though wielding a magical flame, which cannot in any way be a mere coincidence.[/quote]
Well then, until you have irrefutable proof that she being a mage, I suggest you stop using sentences like," were said to be PROOF bla bla rubbish."  It's misleading. [/quote]

See above.  Again, I was pointing to in-game LORE that said that, not making my own claim.  

[quote]Sacred Fantasy...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Firstly, we don't know exactly what happened at the Golden City.  Right now the best information we have on it is Chantry doctrine, which is not the most objective source in the world.  [/quote]
Then do you have any other objective source beside your "educated guess"? /Sarcasm[/quote]

I don't have to have other sources at my disposal to be able to say that the Chantry is sufficiently biased source that its claims are automatically suspect.  As for the "educated guess" snark, whatever.  Dredging up an argument from another thread is pointless and little more than an invitation to uwarranted hostility.  Especially when the snark appears to be rooted in a language-barrier issue for one, and also for your demonstrated contempt for anyone deigning to form theories based on the lore simply because that lore is not explicitly known to be factual.

[Quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...

Secondly, MAGES themselves were not responsible for the carnage you refer to, but Magisters in particular.  Mage =/= Magister, and Magister =/= all mages, everywhere. [/quote]
Yes they were. It was the mages who appointed the magister in the circle of magi.
[quote]
From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium to enter the Fade, developing magical talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy[1].[/quote]
Refer to Tevinter Imperium codex entry. [/quote]

This, and the quotes below it about the fall of Arlathan does absolutely nothing at all to refute my point that not all mages are Magisters, and that not all people in all the world always and forever hated all mages of all types, including the elves you keep pointing to as unabashed haters of mages--at one time, ALL elves were mages.  That right there strongly discredits your insistence that elves do and always have hated all mages. 

Mages have always existed in all societies, the sole exception being the dwarves, and even with the dwarves we have some interesting lore that suggests at one time some or all dwarves were mages as well.  Oh, damn, there I go again speculating.

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
They would have an innate distrust of magisters.[/quote]
They would have an innate distrust of all mages 
[/quote]

No, they wouldn't, and repeating yourself over and over and over again won't make it true.  The elves were mages, and still have mages among them.  It does not follow that they hate mages.  Especially when we can see clearly from Origins and DA2 that this is not the case.  At no point did we see the elves lining up to lynch any of their Keepers.

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
I'm saying that if Andraste was preaching against slavery and magical abuses, then her own status as a mage would either have had no bearing on how others saw her, or likely it would have just reinforced their willingness to rally to her.  I don't see what's difficult to understand about this, because I can see the appeal that would be found in a mage who loudly spoke out against magical abuses and went to war against mages whose abuses were rampant. [/quote]
You don't see because it's either 1. ) you refuse to see or 2.) you never read the elven records. or 3.) you believe that mages are cute innocent harmless teddy bear that makes the world a happy place. [/quote]

Or, 4) I don't find your arguments compelling in the least, and 5)my interpretation of the available lore is fundamentally different from yours.  

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...

"The hatred toward mages is evident with the Chantry teaching."  Um, no.  Just as the Bible cannot be used as proof of itself, so can Chantry teaching not be used as proof of its own doctrine. 
I think it could be argued that hatred toward mages is heavily reinforced, if not caused, by Chantry doctrine, but we cannot use Chantry doctrine as proof of why mages are hated.  Not when the Chantry has a vested interest in maintaining that doctrine in order to justify its own power base, among other things.[/quote]
 
Except that the Bible is not the Chant of Light. We have science today to re-evaluate our fact plus other historical evidences that are not affliated with the Church and archeology's proof. You don't get that in Thedas. You don't even have any other sources to compare with. So until you have other sources of information that could refute the Chantry's teaching, you have nothing to back up your claim.  And no, I'm not interested with your "educated guess"
[/quote]

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Dude.  ALL interpretations are of people's "own making."  I'm not claiming anything as fact, but you know what?  You are flat out wrong to say it doesn't exist in the game world.  I can only assume what you mean by that is that my interpretation is not supported by the game lore, and you, sir, are dead wrong on that count.  Every single thing I have posited has support in the lore. You may not find it compelling, but that's based on YOUR interpretation, which is also of your own making, and not the lore itself.[/quote]
The only lore you provided are wyne's gift and some reference about natural disaster which are hardly  evidences of anything. [/quote]

Christ.  Yes, they are evidence.  They are not PROOF, but I never claimed they were proof.  They are, however, evidence.  

[quote]Sacred Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
Don't tell me what I do and don't know, if you please.  That is the height of rudeness.

Show me where it says the Chantry forbid any and all magic in 1:1 Divine, please.  The Chantry has a history of taking a hypocritical and extremist position on magic, and seems to have grown progressively worse over the centuries, but I'm unaware of any explicit prohibitions against ALL magic.  Especially not given that mages have always proven useful to the Chantry whenever it needed some magical fireballs lobbed at an enemy, and it's kind of hard to do that if all magic is expressly forbidden.[/quote]
I have shown and link it to you in the other thread, and I'm not going to spoon feed you again. Find it your yourself under Dragon Age Chronology. It's easy to find. The Chantry did forbid the uses of magic. The  Nevarran Accord was signed to lift the ban under conditional terms, which you conveniently dismiss. I have no interest to repeat the same argument again and again.[/quote]

Funny, I don't recall anything you posting having any statements within that the Chantry forbade all magic of all kinds and applications.  Even funnier, before I posted that, I went looking myself, and found nothing at all on anything happening in 1:1 Divine other than the raising of the Divine herself.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mai 2012 - 07:57 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Asdara wrote...
I am (honestly) curious about how the speculation that she might have been a Tevinter Magister meshes with the slavery aspect.  Can you elaborate (or point me to where you've already elaborated - I'm checking this thread between finals writing so I easily might have skimmed it somewhere here, apologies for that if so).

I'm not sure what do you mean by Tevinter Magister meshes with the Slavery aspect.   I don't think a slave mage could roam freely and rally the barbarians to join her cause. She would had been killed instantly. I don't believe people of that era could simply overlook her status as mage given how much tension was there between the Tevinter mages and the barbarians or elves. People don't judges a person as individual. They judge by the group or origin you presented.  The logical reason could be the barbarians and elves didn't know that or she never was a mage in the first place, thus why she wasn't recognized as mage by the Tevinter. A mage had the right to join the Circle of Magi and appointed a Tevinter magister regardless of their status. It's how the Tevinter govern their empire.

But let us assume that Andraste was indeed a mage and people knew about it. Therefore, the most logical reason would be she is being a Tevinter Magister who oppose the Imperium. Due to her political influence and leadership, it's more likely that most people including the elves, barbarians and mages would respect and accepted her. She was a slave once but as soon as The Tevinter mages recognize her potential, they invited her to join the Circle of Magi. It's the right of mages to join the Circle and appoint a Magister regardless of their status. Over time she managed to influence most mages and  be elected as a Tevinter Magister who then turn against the Imperium. She made her intention widely known and cause much unrest within the Imperium. Therefore she fled back to Ferelden and was welcomed by the barbarians who joined her later without questioning. 

Asdara wrote...

It is possible that things were written that simply aren't floating around Ferelden or the Freemarches.  An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence all the time, but that is (again) simply speculative at this point.

Yes it's  possible. We haven't see much of ancient texts and artifacts yet. So it's leave much room to speculate.

Asdara wrote...

I do think it has some basis in logic to assert that the contents of the libraries of Tevinter differ from those of devoted Chantry lands.  Or the lost libraries of ancient ruins somewhere can always offer something that wouldn't be found elsewhere.  Could be not though.  Again, we have to wait and see what we're going to be given from different pens over the long term, if anything.

I agree. There're 2 Divines. The Tevinter Divine is referred as The Black Divine while The Orlesian Divine is referred as The White Divine. While the White Divine didn't permit the use of magic freely, the same thing can't be said to the Black Divine. The Tevinter Imperium, despite converted into Andrastian are still political dominated by mages.

Asdara wrote...
I have to quibble a bit here on a few points.  The elves did not hate "mages" generic catch-all group; they had their own mages who they did not hate, who they made their leaders actually of each clan (Keepers).  Now, I conceed that they hated "mages of the Imperium" - or maybe even the broader group of "human mages" - but I am not aware of any evidence that they hated all beings who had magical ability on the broadest level.

The Dalish had 2 magic users. The Keeper and The First. So the use of magic was pretty much very limited even without monitoring from the templars. It's not the same with human mages or specifically the Tevinter Mages. The elves had long history of hostility with the Tevinter Mages from the day human learn how to use lyrium. 

Asdara wrote...

The southern barbarians... eh, Mori speaks of Shamans and respected magic users among the tribes keeping traditional forms of magic alive.  Witches, yes, they hate - Witches of the Wild they fear and hate and have stories about - but again, when the magic users are among their own it might be a different story (I mean, if it was within the context of their cultural beliefs - they aren't all converts of the Chantry (and wouldn't have been pre-Andraste anyway, because there wasn't such a thing)).

The southern barbarians do have shamans but I doubt they're many. We don't know yet how their culture works yet. They could be using their magic for limited purpose like healing and hunting only, unlike most Tevinter mages who were well known to abuse magic and practising dark arts. The southern barbarians like the elves, became the victim of the Tevinter mages for blood rituals.

Asdara wrote...
Also, she could have hidden being a mage behind "acts of the Maker" in theory.  Nothing supports that other than a modern skeptisim about the intercession of the Divine into mundane matters, but it isn't impossible.

You have to believe in the Maker first. Do you believe in the Maker?  

Asdara wrote...
Well Poland only existed on and off through history; Germany didn't exist until like the 1800's - there were still Polish people, there were still German people - they were organized differently, but they still associated with a shared identity that was tied to that geographical region.  Just because Ferelden didn't become a kingdom until after the fall of the Imperium doesn't mean that an identity that was shared by people living in that area together didn't give them a sense of solidarity - or tribal cooperation or what-have-you.  They had enough identification with their clans to fight over dominance until the unification under Calanhad, for example.   
 I think that Tevinter would consider them citizens of Tevinter, or at least provincials under the rule of Teventer (not sure what the structure for citizenship rights was or if we have something to extrapolate that from) - that does not mean that they considered themselves the same way.  They might have.  They also might not have.  Again, I make a comparison to Ancient Rome and its territories - sure, at some point every man was made an official citizen of Rome in a sweeping movement, but many people still identified themselves with where they were from.

 The polish and germany identity didn't pop up out of nowhere. They origins from much more primitive tribes. The same goes for Ferelden. Ferelden was once roam by the Alamarri tribe. But they're not as advance as the Tevinter.

Some suggest that humans came from across the ocean as the Qunari did, but if so, there is no record from such a time. Humans spread across Thedas as various tribes of people known as the Ciriane, the Planacene, the Hacian, and the Alamarri—but it is the Tevinters, centered on the port city of Minrathous, who became ascendant.

Refer to Dragon Age Chronology.

Nevertheless Ferelden was part of Tevinter Imperium.

The Tevinter Imperium was once the largest nation on Thedas, reaching all the way to Ferelden in the south

Refer to Tevinter Imperium Wiki.

Therefore Ferelden was ruled under the law of the Imperum. Every mages born in Ferelden was a Tevinter Mage who had the right to join the Circle of Magi and appoint or to be appointed as a Tevinter Magister.

From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium to enter the Fade, developing magical talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy[1]


Tevinter society is notoriously decadent, and ambition and magical ability are hallmarks of the ruling elite, the Magisters. The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation as ), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic.

Refer to  Tevinter Imperium wiki

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Doesn't matter. One or few "good" mages weren't the one who wrote the history when the Arlathan fell, when hundreds of elves were sacrificied and when the barbarian tribes and elves were enslaved. They were coward chickens who cannot even muster their pen to write something for future generation to study, Let alone be the leader of the rebellion that ultimately change the world. Why should this few "good" mages  deserve any credit?.  The chantry teaches that magic is a curse for 900 hundred years and no "good" mages ever bold enough to write anything against it. 

Well, someone wrote that Andraste might have been a mage and I think all we find is a burned copy.  So, perhaps that's what happened to all the writings of the good mages?

That the book was burned is one of the more compelling aspects to me.  Seems that the Chantry felt it had to suppress the writings that claimed Andraste as a mage, rather than merely declaring it heretical and ridiculing it against Chantry anti-mage doctrine.  That tells me that there is information in those burned books that the Chantry didn't feel it could defend against and had to destroy the knowledge in its entirety. 

Is that the only lore we have that hints at book burnings?

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

And she/he  concluded it as a fact which wasn't her/his intention. And I can understand that. Therefore there is no need for you to speak on his/her behalf. You're not the one who wrote it.

A point of clarification needs to be made here. They did NOT make a statement of fact unintentionally.  YOU misunderstood it that way, but the rest of us understood it quite well.  The statement "It could be that...and thus" was a single statement of speculation.  It was not two statements, the first of which was speculation and the second which was stated as a fact.  

My purpose in bringing that up again is simply to point out that there is a problem of language interpretation here, because that's just one example of us making statements that we all understand clearly, but which you consistently misunderstand, apparently because of a difference in sentence structure.  This is what I think a large part of the problem is.  You repeatedly accuse people of making declarative statements, such as the one referenced above, when they did no such thing.  This is why people are getting frustrated--you keeping making claims that we, looking back on the quotes in question, can see are not true, but you keep on making accusations of our writing, that we keep on seeing aren't true.  I've no clue how to get past this communication problem, unfortuntately.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[Silfren]

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

Just so long as she doesn't later turn out to be a clone of herself.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Funny, I don't recall anything you posting having any statements within that the Chantry forbade all magic of all kinds and applications.  Even funnier, before I posted that, I went looking myself, and found nothing at all on anything happening in 1:1 Divine other than the raising of the Divine herself.

The only thing I can think of that they are referencing is the codex on the history of the circle where it is said that in 1:1 Divine all magic not expressly requested by the Chantry was forbidden.  Apparently they were still allowed to light candles and practice enough offensive magic to be useful against enemies.  It basically says mages can't do any magic outside the Chantry dominion.  Which isn't the same as no magic at all ever.

That the book was burned is one of the more compelling aspects to me. 
Seems that the Chantry felt it had to suppress the writings that claimed
Andraste as a mage, rather than merely declaring it heretical and
ridiculing it against Chantry anti-mage doctrine.  That tells me that
there is information in those burned books that the Chantry didn't feel
it could defend against and had to destroy the knowledge in its
entirety. 

I lean towards Andraste being a mage for the same reason someone else mentioned earlier - because the game is a construct of modern authors who are trying to write a good story, and it would be a good story to have the Chantry's most cherished prophet be a mage.  Of course, the writers could leave it a complete mystery for the same reason - endless discussion but no real answer.

Is that the only lore we have that hints at book burnings?

I can't think of any more offhand.  I didn't really go looking for other examples.

A point of clarification needs to be made here. They did NOT make a
statement of fact unintentionally.  YOU misunderstood it that way, but
the rest of us understood it quite well.

I think it is sad that Sacred_Fantasy obviously has a language barrier, but instead of asking for clarification (or finally getting the idea that something they've been corrected on dozens of times might be an ongoing problem) they continue to attack and snark people for it.  The attitude is really unappreciated when the problem is almost entirely on their side and others keep trying to explain without success.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Funny, I don't recall anything you posting having any statements within that the Chantry forbade all magic of all kinds and applications.  Even funnier, before I posted that, I went looking myself, and found nothing at all on anything happening in 1:1 Divine other than the raising of the Divine herself.

The only thing I can think of that they are referencing is the codex on the history of the circle where it is said that in 1:1 Divine all magic not expressly requested by the Chantry was forbidden.  Apparently they were still allowed to light candles and practice enough offensive magic to be useful against enemies.  It basically says mages can't do any magic outside the Chantry dominion.  Which isn't the same as no magic at all ever.

That's the only thing I can come up with, too.  While I do concede that its clear the Chantry was heavy-handed in its insistence on what magic should be used and how it should be applied, I'm not sure its meant to be taken literally that mages were only allowed to use magic to light candles.  I think it's more a general statement that mages were sick of being used as power tools by the Chantry for the Chantry's own ends.  Which I do not at all interpret as a blanket forbidding of magic, just as a "You'll work for us and by God you'll LIKE it" kind of scenario.  Magic is far too useful as a weapon against its enemies for the Chantry to issue a blanket prohibition on it without creating significant problems for itself.  Not that the Chantry has a great reputation for consistency, even so....

I lean towards Andraste being a mage for the same reason someone else mentioned earlier - because the game is a construct of modern authors who are trying to write a good story, and it would be a good story to have the Chantry's most cherished prophet be a mage.  Of course, the writers could leave it a complete mystery for the same reason - endless discussion but no real answer.

I agree, for the same reasons.  Though my favorite Mage!Andraste clincher is the image of Andraste's statue positioned perfectly to suggest her as wielding magical flame.  There's no way that's an accident.  As hints go its got all the subtlety of a wrecking ball.

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
A point of clarification needs to be made here. They did NOT make a
statement of fact unintentionally.  YOU misunderstood it that way, but
the rest of us understood it quite well.

I think it is sad that Sacred_Fantasy obviously has a language barrier, but instead of asking for clarification (or finally getting the idea that something they've been corrected on dozens of times might be an ongoing problem) they continue to attack and snark people for it.  The attitude is really unappreciated when the problem is almost entirely on their side and others keep trying to explain without success.

No kidding. 

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mai 2012 - 08:21 .

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

Just so long as she doesn't later turn out to be a clone of herself.

Is that a reference to Star Wars "Attack of the Clones" or the Infamous Marvel Comics "Clone Saga"...either way I'm having unpleasant flashbacks.

[Asdara]

Gah... messed up the quotes again.  Okay.. had some drinks at dinner (birthday of lil bro) can't fix... readable I hope.  Someday I will get this right /sigh

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Asdara wrote...
I am (honestly) curious about how the speculation that she might have been a Tevinter Magister meshes with the slavery aspect.  Can you elaborate (or point me to where you've already elaborated - I'm checking this thread between finals writing so I easily might have skimmed it somewhere here, apologies for that if so).[/quote]
I'm not sure what do you mean by Tevinter Magister meshes with the Slavery aspect.   I don't think a slave mage could roam freely and rally the barbarians to join her cause. She would had been killed instantly. I don't believe people of that era could simply overlook her status as mage given how much tension was there between the Tevinter mages and the barbarians or elves. People don't judges a person as individual. They judge by the group or origin you presented.  The logical reason could be the barbarians and elves didn't know that or she never was a mage in the first place, thus why she wasn't recognized as mage by the Tevinter. A mage had the right to join the Circle of Magi and appointed a Tevinter magister regardless of their status. It's how the Tevinter govern their empire.

But let us assume that Andraste was indeed a mage and people knew about it. Therefore, the most logical reason would be she is being a Tevinter Magister who oppose the Imperium. Due to her political influence and leadership, it's more likely that most people including the elves, barbarians and mages would respect and accepted her. She was a slave once but as soon as The Tevinter mages recognize her potential, they invited her to join the Circle of Magi. It's the right of mages to join the Circle and appoint a Magister regardless of their status. Over time she managed to influence most mages and  be elected as a Tevinter Magister who then turn against the Imperium. She made her intention widely known and cause much unrest within the Imperium. Therefore she fled back to Ferelden and was welcomed by the barbarians who joined her later without questioning. [/quote]

Ah, I see what you are saying now.  Thank you for the elaboration.  I think it might have a flaw though, if I may, in that you've indicated a belief that the elves, barbarians, etc. have a strong disinclination to trust anyone strongly associated with Tevinter - which I assume would intensify with higher ranks (especially considering the practices Fenris outlines as being part of rising through said ranks) and this theory also fails to provide a source-point motivation for her to rebel against a system within which she has risen successfully.  That last could, I suppose, be accounted for in an assumption that she is simply a truly exceptional person of high morals who, having been once a slave, held on to that injustice throughout the process and awaited only the power to combat it effectively.  Or, I suppose, the divine inspiration of the Maker could clear that up as well.  I think the first issue stands though, that she'd be less welcome among elves, barbarians, etc. for having a high Magister rank rather than more respected by them.  Really comes down to a subsection of information we don't have though - what regard did the elves, barbarians, etc. have for the Tevinter - was it merely fear and hatred or also respect and awe?  If the latter, then you could be right.   

[quote]Asdara wrote...
I have to quibble a bit here on a few points.  The elves did not hate "mages" generic catch-all group; they had their own mages who they did not hate, who they made their leaders actually of each clan (Keepers).  Now, I conceed that they hated "mages of the Imperium" - or maybe even the broader group of "human mages" - but I am not aware of any evidence that they hated all beings who had magical ability on the broadest level.[/quote]
The Dalish had 2 magic users. The Keeper and The First. So the use of magic was pretty much very limited even without monitoring from the templars. It's not the same with human mages or specifically the Tevinter Mages. The elves had long history of hostility with the Tevinter Mages from the day human learn how to use lyrium. [/quote]

This is true, but that's per clan and we don't (I think?) know how many clans there are.  Also there are magic users among city elves that get swept up into the Chantry system or join Tevinter Circles - which I bring up because those numbers seem significant enough to speculate that the Dalish have a good number of mages among them, just more distributed.  Merrill mentions being sent to the clan she's with from her original clan because they had enough mages in her own but not the one she was sent to.  My speculation is that, based on what we've seen as far as numbers and because of the fact that they don't want to draw attention from human civilization, there are a goodly number of small and medium sized clans.  It could be that when they have an over abundance of mages they might seperate a larger clan into two smaller ones.  No lore on that I don't think, but it seems logical - since clan size would grow over time to an number that would make it difficult to travel unhindered by some uppity humans.  


[quote]Asdara wrote...
Well Poland only existed on and off through history; Germany didn't exist until like the 1800's - there were still Polish people, there were still German people - they were organized differently, but they still associated with a shared identity that was tied to that geographical region.  Just because Ferelden didn't become a kingdom until after the fall of the Imperium doesn't mean that an identity that was shared by people living in that area together didn't give them a sense of solidarity - or tribal cooperation or what-have-you.  They had enough identification with their clans to fight over dominance until the unification under Calanhad, for example.   
 I think that Tevinter would consider them citizens of Tevinter, or at least provincials under the rule of Teventer (not sure what the structure for citizenship rights was or if we have something to extrapolate that from) - that does not mean that they considered themselves the same way.  They might have.  They also might not have.  Again, I make a comparison to Ancient Rome and its territories - sure, at some point every man was made an official citizen of Rome in a sweeping movement, but many people still identified themselves with where they were from.[/quote]
 The polish and germany identity didn't pop up out of nowhere. They origins from much more primitive tribes. The same goes for Ferelden. Ferelden was once roam by the Alamarri tribe. But they're not as advance as the Tevinter.

[quote]
Some suggest that humans came from across the ocean as the Qunari did, but if so, there is no record from such a time. Humans spread across Thedas as various tribes of people known as the Ciriane, the Planacene, the Hacian, and the Alamarri—but it is the Tevinters, centered on the port city of Minrathous, who became ascendant.[/quote]
Refer to Dragon Age Chronology.

Nevertheless Ferelden was part of Tevinter Imperium.
[quote]The Tevinter Imperium was once the largest nation on Thedas, reaching all the way to Ferelden in the south[/quote]
Refer to Tevinter Imperium Wiki.

Therefore Ferelden was ruled under the law of the Imperum. Every mages born in Ferelden was a Tevinter Mage who had the right to join the Circle of Magi and appoint or to be appointed as a Tevinter Magister.
[quote]From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium to enter the Fade, developing magical talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy[1]


Tevinter society is notoriously decadent, and ambition and magical ability are hallmarks of the ruling elite, the Magisters. The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation as ), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic.

[/quote]
Refer to  Tevinter Imperium wiki




[/quote]

The right to join the circle if a mage is part of the reason I brought tribal identity up, just because she has the right (if a mage, which is speculative) doesn't mean she would seize upon that if she had a strong identity with her tribe, or the slave caste or whatever she affiliated herself with more strongly than the Tevinter Magisters.  There are mages today who prefer to remain barbarians than go forth and seek a Circle, mages who go into hiding who avoid the Circle - now it's for oppression factors (presumably) but then it might have stemmed from an aversion to Blood Magic - which was probably practiced more openly before a Chantry existed to stigmatize it.

Modifié par Asdara, 18 mai 2012 - 12:33 .

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Silfren wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

If Andraste pulls a 'Jean Grey is the Phoenix' come back, it could be either really lame or truly epic.

Just so long as she doesn't later turn out to be a clone of herself.

Is that a reference to Star Wars "Attack of the Clones" or the Infamous Marvel Comics "Clone Saga"...either way I'm having unpleasant flashbacks.

It was a reference to the overly convoluted story of Jean Grey, Phoenix-thinking-itself-Jean, and Madelyne Pryor.  Alternate-History versions of the Jean Grey story could be tossed in for good measure.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Asdara wrote...
Ah, I see what you are saying now. Thank you for the elaboration. I think it might have a flaw though, if I may, in that you've indicated a belief that the elves, barbarians, etc. have a strong disinclination to trust anyone strongly associated with Tevinter - which I assume would intensify with higher ranks (especially considering the practices Fenris outlines as being part of rising through said ranks) and this theory also fails to provide a source-point motivation for her to rebel against a system within which she has risen successfully. That last could, I suppose, be accounted for in an assumption that she is simply a truly exceptional person of high morals who, having been once a slave, held on to that injustice throughout the process and awaited only the power to combat it effectively. Or, I suppose, the divine inspiration of the Maker could clear that up as well. I think the first issue stands though, that she'd be less welcome among elves, barbarians, etc. for having a high Magister rank rather than more respected by them. Really comes down to a subsection of information we don't have though - what regard did the elves, barbarians, etc. have for the Tevinter - was it merely fear and hatred or also respect and awe? If the latter, then you could be right.  .

 

I acknowledge the drawbacks. I suggest that she openly opposed injustice in the public and her symphathy towards the slaves and the barbarians had caused other tevinter magister to view her as a threat. In turn all those slaves and barbarian changed their view and began to favor her leadership despite their intensified distrust. it became apparent to them that she was the only one who's capable to free them. Much similiar to what you have propose earlier regarding why would slaves and barbarians trust a mage. It wouldn't be easy for her but I think it]s still possible

As for her motivation, I just assume that she's would like to create an independant govenment and a better world for everyone by acting morally. I remember The Dalish's keeper mention that Andraste was their source of  inspiration. So it could part of her motivation as well. 

I agree  we're very limited with the information we had at the moment and it's difficult to draw much conclusion.

Asdara wrote...

 Or, I suppose, the divine inspiration of the Maker could clear that up as well.

I'm not an Andrastion but I won't deny it if it's proven that the Maker do exist. As far we know, the Dallish do not recognize the concept of one god. They have their own gods. The Dwarves believe in paragons. Some human still worship the old gods while others worship dragons. As you can see, the concept of The Maker isn't universally accepted as the truth. I'm afraid this is among the questions that will never be resolved. And therefore Andraste's relationship with the Maker would most probably be left unexplained explicitly. I would view every events surrounding Andraste and The Maker with open mind tho. But I won't consider it as an evidence.

 

Asdara wrote...
This is true, but that's per clan and we don't (I think?) know how many clans there are.  Also there are magic users among city elves that get swept up into the Chantry system or join Tevinter Circles - which I bring up because those numbers seem significant enough to speculate that the Dalish have a good number of mages among them, just more distributed.  Merrill mentions being sent to the clan she's with from her original clan because they had enough mages in her own but not the one she was sent to.  My speculation is that, based on what we've seen as far as numbers and because of the fact that they don't want to draw attention from human civilization, there are a goodly number of small and medium sized clans.  It could be that when they have an over abundance of mages they might seperate a larger clan into two smaller ones.  No lore on that I don't think, but it seems logical - since clan size would grow over time to an number that would make it difficult to travel unhindered by some uppity humans.

The distribution of mages, keeping their numbers small per clans and The Keeper's responsibity to monitor closely her apprentice or The First is what I think, as the cause for the elves to use their magic properly. I incline to believe  the elves do see magic beneficial rather than harmful. But still, it's not the same as trusting the human mages for variety of reasons I mentioned previously.  

Asdara wrote...
The right to join the circle if a mage is part of the reason I brought tribal identity up, just because she has the right (if a mage, which is speculative) doesn't mean she would seize upon that if she had a strong identity with her tribe, or the slave caste or whatever she affiliated herself with more strongly than the Tevinter Magisters.  There are mages today who prefer to remain barbarians than go forth and seek a Circle, mages who go into hiding who avoid the Circle - now it's for oppression factors (presumably) but then it might have stemmed from an aversion to Blood Magic - which was probably practiced more openly before a Chantry existed to stigmatize it.

I understand. But you have to consider that social political status of the mage was different for the Tevinter Imperium. While it's understandable for mages in Andrastian's countries to hide or live in solidatry, it's doubful
 for mages within the Imperium. The tevinter mages had the right to live freely and the right to rule a country  through the Circle of magi.They were not restricted with blood magic either. The Tevinter magisters used blood magic actively for various reasons. This a priviledge that mages in Andrastian country don't have. You need to take into consideration Andraste was born, not only in Ferelden but within the Tevinter Imperium too, where the Chantry and restriction to the mage's right didn't exist. So, I'm not sure why a mage like Andraste would want to hide herself when she could fare better as fully recognized tevinter mage. 

I don't know. Probably people may not know she being a mage when they kidnapped and sold her. But still, someone would eventually realize that sooner or later. The absence of written record or verbal accounts regarding Andraste's status as mage just doesn't sound right to me if she was indeed a mage. Anyway, it would be interesting subject if we have more clues in DA 3. 

Edit: Reconstruct my post to clarify my view. Spelling and Grammar correction. I have bad tendecy to think faster than my hand could type.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 18 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Urzon]

Lazy Jer wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How about we start by fantasizing Andraste as Marvel Comic's Super Hero Wonder Woman?

Just as an aside... Wonder Woman is actually part of the DC Comics franchise.

Is She Hulk still an option?

While that would be hilarious to watch, i would have personally thought she would have been Scarlet Witch.

Modifié par Urzon, 18 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[Silfren]

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Funny, I don't recall anything you posting having any statements within that the Chantry forbade all magic of all kinds and applications.  Even funnier, before I posted that, I went looking myself, and found nothing at all on anything happening in 1:1 Divine other than the raising of the Divine herself.[/quote]

The only thing I can think of that they are referencing is the codex on the history of the circle where it is said that in 1:1 Divine all magic not expressly requested by the Chantry was forbidden.  Apparently they were still allowed to light candles and practice enough offensive magic to be useful against enemies.  It basically says mages can't do any magic outside the Chantry dominion.  Which isn't the same as no magic at all ever.[/quote]

Looked at that Codex just a few minutes ago on another playthrough.  Here is the relevant text:

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame
which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.[/quote]

Various conclusions could be drawn from it, EXCEPT the notion that magic was expressly and entirely forbidden.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 04:55 .

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Various conclusions could be drawn from it, EXCEPT the notion that magic was expressly and entirely forbidden.

Yeah, given the codices that describe mages as the deciding factor in repelling invasions and such, the mages must still have been taught offensive and defensive magic.  I read it as they weren't supposed to use magic unless explicitly told to by the Chantry.  Going to the circles was supposed to be a compromise that let the mages practice more freely while segregating them so the Chantry could still monitor them.

It really does seem like the early  Chantry was more wary of magic than they were terrified or hateful.  They knew it was dangerous, but also that it was useful.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Various conclusions could be drawn from it, EXCEPT the notion that magic was expressly and entirely forbidden.

Yeah, given the codices that describe mages as the deciding factor in repelling invasions and such, the mages must still have been taught offensive and defensive magic.  I read it as they weren't supposed to use magic unless explicitly told to by the Chantry.  Going to the circles was supposed to be a compromise that let the mages practice more freely while segregating them so the Chantry could still monitor them.

It really does seem like the early  Chantry was more wary of magic than they were terrified or hateful.  They knew it was dangerous, but also that it was useful.

My inner cynic wonders sometimes if the Chantry simply found it convenient to corral all the world's mages into single locations so they'd be easier to harness for military firepower and bound up Andraste's teachings, Tevinter's history, etc, all as a colossal and handy excuse.  There's a fair amount of evidence to support a far darker and far-reaching perspective on the Chantry, if one is of a mind to look at it through a conspiracist's lens.  The constant preaching of magic as evil and mages as cursed, of using the Right of Annulment to keep mages docile and obedient and keep mages primed with the psychological need to prove themselves in order to gain little handouts of freedom and privilege...its all there.

Note:  This is purely random speculation based on absolutely nothing at all but an absurd and unhealthy fascination I have with people who see dark and nefarious motives everywhere, that comes from spending a leeetle too much time on David Icke forums.  It is not to be taken seriously, so I'll...I'll bite anyone who does!  If it makes no sense to you, then please just move along and leave me to my baseless speculations.  Thanks.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 05:45 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Silfren wrote...

My inner cynic wonders sometimes if the Chantry simply found it convenient to corral all the world's mages into single locations so they'd be easier to harness for military firepower and bound up Andraste's teachings, Tevinter's history, etc, all as a colossal and handy excuse.  There's a fair amount of evidence to support a far darker and far-reaching perspective on the Chantry, if one is of a mind to look at it through a conspiracist's lens.  The constant preaching of magic as evil and mages as cursed, of using the Right of Annulment to keep mages docile and obedient and keep mages primed with the psychological need to prove themselves in order to gain little handouts of freedom and privilege...its all there.

"Fear will keep them in line..."

(Grand Moff Tarkin was actually speaking about the Circle.)

In all seriousness (not to imply that I wasn't serious there), all it takes is a little bit of corruption and thirst for power somewhere within the hierarchy of any organization, and available resources will be manipulated to meet the larger goals of control, prestige, might and influence. So it's not too difficult to see where that might happen - to acknowledge the possibility that mages were being kept to further certain ends. What may have truly started with the most benevolent of intentions - good will, harmony, peace - may have become tarnished by those corrupt forces, and thus it became the snowball-rolling-downhill analogy. And as the centuries passed, those darker intentions morphed into the norm - at least for the hierarchy - and the religion that exists today is an odd amalgam of powerful moral truths/guidance and a spiderweb crafted out of fear and deceit. 

Which isn't to say that the Chantry is necessarily bad, or a negative. Merely that some corruption may be dwelling within its roots.

Pure speculation, of course.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Is that a reference to Star Wars "Attack of the Clones" or the Infamous Marvel Comics "Clone Saga"...either way I'm having unpleasant flashbacks.[/quote]

It was a reference to the overly convoluted story of Jean Grey, Phoenix-thinking-itself-Jean, and Madelyne Pryor.  Alternate-History versions of the Jean Grey story could be tossed in for good measure.

[/quote]

Did they do cloning in that one two?  If so I see a pattern, nothing good comes of cloning. 

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh god... is it bad that I read that in Tidus' laughing voice from FFX?

===================================================================

Regarding the topic of Andraste, I'm currently compiling a post that further utilizes -- more then my post on page 1 did -- every ounce of available lore, dialogue, and whatnot regarding Andraste, her rebellion, her supporters, and... pretty much everything else to create additional theories about her or support already existing theories.

Those theories will be, shock of shocks, speculation. 

But they will be using the lore provided to at least lend credence to the theory.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[Asdara]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I acknowledge the drawbacks. I suggest that she openly opposed injustice in the public and her symphathy towards the slaves and the barbarians had caused other tevinter magister to view her as a threat. In turn all those slaves and barbarian changed their view and began to favor her leadership despite their intensified distrust. it became apparent to them that she was the only one who's capable to free them. Much similiar to what you have propose earlier regarding why would slaves and barbarians trust a mage. It wouldn't be easy for her but I think it]s still possible

As for her motivation, I just assume that she's would like to create an independant govenment and a better world for everyone by acting morally. I remember The Dalish's keeper mention that Andraste was their source of inspiration. So it could part of her motivation as well.

I agree we're very limited with the information we had at the moment and it's difficult to draw much conclusion.

Agreed. I'm eagerly awaiting more information - though the games though, because I'm not really able to keep up with or keen on transmedia sources. I love the games and I love the lore, but being a full time student with a relationship to maintain takes up a lot of time so I don't read the books or really keep up on other sources.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
I'm not an Andrastion but I won't deny it if it's proven that the Maker do exist. As far we know, the Dallish do not recognize the concept of one god. They have their own gods. The Dwarves believe in paragons. Some human still worship the old gods while others worship dragons. As you can see, the concept of The Maker isn't universally accepted as the truth. I'm afraid this is among the questions that will never be resolved. And therefore Andraste's relationship with the Maker would most probably be left unexplained explicitly. I would view every events surrounding Andraste and The Maker with open mind tho. But I won't consider it as an evidence.

Yes the issue of the Maker being real or not is always a stumbling block on determining what happened with Andraste. I mean, there are, as you pointed out, other religious systems and other potential deities - the old gods who come back as archdemons (if that's what they are) - and so its a little convoluted. I don't think we'll ever actually get firm confirmation of the Maker either, nor do I think we should.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The distribution of mages, keeping their numbers small per clans and The Keeper's responsibity to monitor closely her apprentice or The First is what I think, as the cause for the elves to use their magic properly. I incline to believe the elves do see magic beneficial rather than harmful. But still, it's not the same as trusting the human mages for variety of reasons I mentioned previously.

Agreed. Magic users among themselves are accepted and considered important, but they aren't ruling over others with their magic or abusing their fellows simply because they have the power to do so. The entire social structure is drastically different from the major human socio-political structures. Of course, they do run the same risks of becoming abominations - but I often wonder if those risks are considerably reduced by the lessened amount of pressure on them, the lessened amount of internal conflict about their being magic users because their society doesn't hate them. This is mostly speculation based on the commentary of Merrill during DA2 when she talks to Bethany occasionally about the clan and being a mage - particularly when she is confused about why Bethany would think the clan would resent having to move around all the time partly to avoid detection of their mages by the Templars. The rate of abomination-turning seems (though this may be only because of limited amount of contact with the Dalish by our playable characters) to be less among the Dalish than among the Circle lands.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
I understand. But you have to consider that social political status of the mage was different for the Tevinter Imperium. While it's understandable for mages in Andrastian's countries to hide or live in solidatry, it's doubful
for mages within the Imperium. The tevinter mages had the right to live freely and the right to rule a country through the Circle of magi.They were not restricted with blood magic either. The Tevinter magisters used blood magic actively for various reasons. This a priviledge that mages in Andrastian country don't have. You need to take into consideration Andraste was born, not only in Ferelden but within the Tevinter Imperium too, where the Chantry and restriction to the mage's right didn't exist. So, I'm not sure why a mage like Andraste would want to hide herself when she could fare better as fully recognized tevinter mage.

Oh yes, definitely a possibility. I am quite curious to learn more about the running of Tevinter - both past and present - though a less biased source than someone like Fenris (who obviously has ample reason to hate them all). I think the more we know though the more we're going to have to guess about what it means - which is the fun part

(okay I did all the quotes by hand this time, I hope it worked!)

[rapscallioness]

I think Andraste was a mage, too. And that her message has been skewed and even intentionally manipulated over the centuries.

First from ignorance. Then probably from a desire to maintain and gain more power.

I also think the Warden and Hawke are her descendants. Same bloodline, or something.

Yup. I would not be the least bit surprised if that turned out in DA3.

I would love to play as Andraste. Play her story. Get to the truth. I bet her story is far different than what it has evolved into over the course of almost a thousand years.

[Silfren]

rapscallioness wrote...

I think Andraste was a mage, too. And that her message has been skewed and even intentionally manipulated over the centuries.

First from ignorance. Then probably from a desire to maintain and gain more power.

I also think the Warden and Hawke are her descendants. Same bloodline, or something.

Yup. I would not be the least bit surprised if that turned out in DA3.

I would love to play as Andraste. Play her story. Get to the truth. I bet her story is far different than what it has evolved into over the course of almost a thousand years.

What's your basis for thinking the Warden and Hawke to be her descendents?  It's an interesting idea, but seems a little too far-fetched, especially since the Warden can come from several backgrounds.  I'd have a hard time believing a dwarf noble Warden was descended from Andraste, I'm afraid.  Though it would be one way of connecting all the DA protagonists for them to be related (and to keep disappearing).

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

What's your basis for thinking the Warden and Hawke to be her descendents? It's an interesting idea, but seems a little too far-fetched, especially since the Warden can come from several backgrounds. I'd have a hard time believing a dwarf noble Warden was descended from Andraste, I'm afraid. Though it would be one way of connecting all the DA protagonists for them to be related (and to keep disappearing).

Yea, it's not really likely the Warden is descended from Andraste. At least, not in any origin save for the Mage one. The Amell/Hawke line is possible, though I doubt it myself.

I think somewhere it was claimed that the Theirin bloodline was descended from Andraste though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 11:32 .

[Asdara]

Well if she had two son quite a few centuries ago she'd have a lot of descendants by now if they were more productive than not. Then again, considering the number that could generate, it seems less likely that being of her line would confer a particular benefit. Unless of course there was some thinning of the chain at some point in history and only a few connected living descendants remain. I still think it's pretty far-fetched though. Could be, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it.

[Twilight Dragon]

This is refering to a post by Vampire Damian on the dragon age wiki that andraste was possibly possesed, it was most likely a desire, or pride demon. heres the link to post

http://dragonage.wik...=20121209142014

Modifié par Twilight Dragon, 17 décembre 2012 - 07:25 .