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Let there be no more said about faulty logic


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#1
The Razman

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Yeah. At first I thought it was a minority ... but there's been too many people who seem to share the sentiment of this silly meme. And this is the only time I will ever say this on a topic to do with Mass Effect, because it's the only instance I've actually seen where it is accurate to say this and isn't just pure snobbery and condescension:

If you believe this is accurate ... you haven't understood the ending.

The Starchild's logic is not cyclical, illlogical, flawed or fallacious in any way. The Starchild's logic is, in fact, foolproof. If you disagree with the logic, that's fine ... you're not meant to agree with a logic which concludes that killing most of the galaxy's inhabitants is the correct course of action to take. But that doesn't invalidate the logic.

The Starchild believes that if technology evolves to a certain advanced point, self-aware machines will develop which have enough power to destroy all sentient life in the galaxy in a similar event to the well-trodden science-fiction concept of the Singularity, and that these machines will inevitably rise up against their creators and destroy them. Given the finality of this consequence, it needs to take the course of action which will 100% prevent this from ever occuring. And the logic of preventing the technology which creates the machines from ever being invented is undeniably sound. It's the only 100% certain way. So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping the technology level below a safe threshold.

All of that is soundproof. Let's go through the common issues people have with it.

Argument 1: That it's an illogical course of action to take because we don't know that synthetics rising up against their creators is an inevitability (and that the Geth prove it).

No, nothing is ever an inevitabiltiy. But if you have reasonable cause to believe it will happen, and the consequence is the destruction of all life, you need to be 100% sure it won't ... because otherwise there won't be anyone around for a second chance.

The Geth is something which people keep bringing up as some kind of evidence against the Starchild's logic (e.g. I made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, so it'd all turn out alright!). These people don't seem to realise that the Geth had been warring for centuries before you came along and fixed it. It doesn't matter who started the fight ... it started. If we were at a sufficient technological level for those synthetics to have the same amount of power as the Reapers, what was a non-fatal mistake which enveloped the Quarians home planet and space would've resulted in the complete destruction of all life in the galaxy. Similarly, EDI was the rogue AI we take out on the Lunar Base in ME1. It was just a mistake that she went all psycho and started killing people ... but if we were past the point of technological no return, it again wouldn't matter. Everyone's dead, no second chances. The Geth and EDI are proof that even in the time which Mass Effect is taking place ... these mistakes are happening. And there's no reason to believe that they'd stop happening other than naive idealism.

Argument 2: That the Starchild's argument is cyclical (creating synthetics to kill organics in order to prevent synthetics killing organics).

This line is trotted out without the two qualifying words ... "creating synthetics to kill some organics in order to prevent synthetics killing all organics". The Reapers don't kill all life. The synthetics they're preventing from being developed would. Which is worse?

The whole point of the Reapers, and the Starchild, is that they're there to prevent organic life as a form of life from dying out. They don't care about individual species any more than we would care about individual ant colonies if we were trying to save an ant population. Their one aim is to make sure organics don't die out. It's immoral logic, because it's a logic which doesn't care that each species is unique and doesn't value the sanctity of life in the way that we, as humans, do. But the Starchild isn't human, and doesn't share those views. It's logic is impeccable ... it's morality is non-existent.

Argument 3: That the Starchild could simply destroy the synthetics instead of destroying the life that creates them.

It can't do that, because it would result in ridiculously short cycles. Once the technology for the synthetics is invented, destroying them will basically do nothing ... because someone, somewhere will have the knowledge of how to do it again. You could destroy every nuclear weapon on Earth right now, but we wouldn't be safe from a nuclear holocaust, because the technology to develop them still exists. Once something's been invented, it cannot be uninvented.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that basically covers the main misconceptions people have about that logic, and I'd be naive to think that posting a thread will stop people from saying any of these misinformed lines again ... but at least I've posted it in a thread now instead of having to correct people on an individual basis.

Modifié par The Razman, 11 mai 2012 - 03:57 .


#2
What a Succulent Ass

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All of that is soundproof.

No it's not. It really isn't.

#3
The Razman

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Random Jerkface wrote...

All of that is soundproof.

No it's not. It really isn't.

Obvious troll is obvious.

#4
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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The Razman wrote...

Obvious troll is obvious.


Don't call people trolls because they don't agree with us. She isn't a troll.

#5
The Razman

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Don't call people trolls because they don't agree with us. She isn't a troll.

I'm not calling her a troll because she's disagreeing. I'm calling her a troll because she added nothing other than "Wrong".

Regardless, I should probably note the irony of me using a meme to mock a troll while simultaneously mocking a meme in the OP. Rather self-unaware.

Modifié par The Razman, 11 mai 2012 - 04:01 .


#6
slimgrin

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Argument 4: The star child was a retarded idea.

#7
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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The Razman wrote...

I'm not calling her a troll because she's disagreeing. I'm calling her a troll because she added nothing other than "Wrong".


That isn't trolling. Trolling is saying inflammatory things. That isn't really inflamatory.

But I don't want to derail your topic, because I feel your OP is very right, so let's drop this.

#8
Icinix

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I thought the meme came about from a certain extent of it being that the solution is kind of a halway idea through a brain storming solution as opposed to a solution that is actually better?

Kind of like building a bike with two wheels and calling it the pinnacle of transport and never going for more. Sure it works, sure it will continue to work forever. But there is certainly better solutions and logical courses to follow.

#9
GhostV9

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The Razman wrote...
So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the
galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most
technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping
the technology level below a safe threshold.


The problem is, that "force" is the very same thing he's trying to prevent from happening.

#10
favoritehookeronthecitadel

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The Razman wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...



All of that is soundproof.

No it's not. It really isn't.

Obvious troll is obvious.


I can be a bigger troll.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

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Modifié par favoritehookeronthecitadel, 11 mai 2012 - 04:09 .


#11
Icinix

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GhostV9 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the
galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most
technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping
the technology level below a safe threshold.


The problem is, that "force" is the very same thing he's trying to prevent from happening.


But in the eyes of the Synthetics, they are preventing it. They see no distinction between keeping a living walking talking organic and having their essence stored as genetic code in a machine. Because they aren't organic, they don't understand organic.

#12
Shermos

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The Razman wrote...

I'm not calling her a troll because she's disagreeing. I'm calling her a troll because she added nothing other than "Wrong".


That isn't trolling. Trolling is saying inflammatory things. That isn't really inflamatory.

But I don't want to derail your topic, because I feel your OP is very right, so let's drop this.


You're right. It's not technically a troll post, but it is incredibly idiotic. You can't just say "You're wrong" and not back it up.

I think you're absolutely right Razman. It's good to see the occasional intelligent post on this forum.

I'd also like to add that the Reapers are NOT synthetics. They are synthetic/organic hybrids not altogether different from the "Synthesis" option Shepard can choose. There is a difference.  

Modifié par Shermos, 11 mai 2012 - 04:18 .


#13
Il Divo

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The Starchild is not using logic, as far as we can perceive. Logic requires that there is a clear premise and conclusion, which together compose an argument. The Star Child does no such thing. He presents a claim, nothing more.

That there exist counter-arguments to the Star Child's claim (EDI and the Geth) which Shepard is not allowed to present as evidence is perhaps the biggest crime the ending commits, especially since the Star Child doesn't provide any backing for his claims.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 mai 2012 - 04:17 .


#14
GhostV9

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Icinix wrote...

GhostV9 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the
galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most
technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping
the technology level below a safe threshold.


The problem is, that "force" is the very same thing he's trying to prevent from happening.


But in the eyes of the Synthetics, they are preventing it. They see no distinction between keeping a living walking talking organic and having their essence stored as genetic code in a machine. Because they aren't organic, they don't understand organic.


Right. Which is exactly why it's called a faulty logic.. The Catalyst doesn't fully understand what it's talking about. It's unfit to make these kinds of decisions, and it's tragic that it created the solution that it did.

#15
someone else

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The op is right that the logic is not internally faulty - that however does not rehabilitate it or make logical within the overall context of the game - as a conceptual solution it is nonsense.

The simplest course of action starbrat could have taken is have the reapers intervene if synthetics threatened to get out of hand - in fact, easier to reduce their numbers effectively than wipe out a messy dispersed bunch of organics. It is plausible that Shepard will be enforcing this very strategy under the control ending.

Genocide is completely overkill (sorry for the obvious pun) Starbrats mechanical pets could just as effectively "bomb 'em back into the stoneage" where the upstart species would be safe for at least another 50K years. Again, in the larger context, Starbrat's ideas are bankrupt.

Finally, the OP's assertion that synthetics would grow out of control more frequently than the current 50k cycle is pure conjecture, and even if true, would not pose a major obstacle to reaper control - heck they might even like having something to do more often than once every 50k.

Not really sure what the OP is driving at, other than one more futile attempt to recast this literary abortion as baby of the year.

Modifié par someone else, 11 mai 2012 - 04:25 .


#16
Gatt9

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All of that is soundproof. Let's go through the common issues people have with it.


Actually, it's not even remotely close to "Soundproof". In fact, a synthetic lifeform would have no need or drive to reproduce, the whole thing is based upon the fallacy of anthropromorphizing a synthetic lifeform into having human desires. It's just as likely, more than likely, that a synthetic lifeform wouldn't bother with reproduction.

Nevermind the fact that a godlike being capable of living countless millenia whose only concern is Synthetics vs Organics is incredibly hard to believe to start out with. You'd think a being like that would actually go explore another galaxy instead of sitting around for 50,000 years doing nothing.

You'd also think he could've realized at some point that a computer virus would solve the problem in short order anyways.

Your arguement 1 is based on the assumption that synthetic life and organic life will always come into conflict for resources. The truth is, there are far more worlds that organic life could not use than there are that they could, and the synthetic could easily "Colonize" those.

From there we need to get into discussion on the infinite universe and there's no reason for resource contention over time anyways, especially for a synthetic race not subject to aging, which could simply launch itself at a distant galaxy and not worry about how long it takes to get there.

Your arguement 2 is also based on fallacy. You're making the assumption that you can endlessly wipe out all higher lifeforms, and new ones will appear. The truth is, you'll run out of organic lifeforms in a few billion years. By wiping out higher species, you prevent the spread of species across the universe, and at some point, suns going supernova will just wipe out everything prior to them being able to advance to spaceflight.

Eventually, the whole process will ultimately end all organic life, not save it, because you're limiting higher species to a single planet with a low level of technological ability, insuring genocide because when each sun ends it's life, there'll be no ability for some to escape.

Arguement 3 is actually an arguement for why the "Starchild" should just wipe out all organic life. Eventually every species will invent it, so why even bother letting them have a chance? Just wipe out all organic life, and then the "Terrible synthetics" just won't ever be created.

Of course, arguement 3 also ignores the fact that the "Starchild" already knows how to control all synthetic life, so he could just have handed over the secret and saved everyone the trouble.

Or he could have simply executed Synthesis millenia ago and saved everyone the trouble.

Of course, you're also ignoring, what if some cycle doesn't invent synthetics until 60,000 years? Or 100,000 years? They're going to be wiped out anyways at 50,000 years to protect everyone from the synthetics that no one has invented yet.

I'm sorry, the whole ending is so riddled with plot holes it almost makes ME2 look acceptable. You really need to sit down, take off your "EA is the greatest!" glasses, and think about this whole thing logically. Because really, I can fill this thread with reasons why the ending was hands-down nonsensical.

And then I can explain why this ending was designed for DLC and Sequels instead of being designed to actually be a good story.

Modifié par Gatt9, 11 mai 2012 - 04:27 .


#17
The Razman

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Il Divo wrote...

That there exist counter-arguments to the Star Child's claim (EDI and the Geth) which Shepard is not allowed to present as evidence is perhaps the biggest crime the ending commits, especially since the Star Child doesn't provide any backing for his claims.

I don't mean to be rude ... but there does exist an entire section within the OP which explains exactly why what you've just said is incorrect.

#18
What a Succulent Ass

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The Razman wrote...

I'm not calling her a troll because she's disagreeing. I'm calling her a troll because she added nothing other than "Wrong".

I'm not calling you wrong. I'm saying the assertion that the Catalyst's logic is "airtight" is wrong. In fourteen lines, it manages to commit several logical fouls (the extremity of its "Solution" notwithstanding), the biggest of which are an appeal to probability and the assumption as to the nature of a tech singularity. We have no single data point to extrapolate upon, and we are given no evidence that the Catalyst does either. A singularity is simply a point in which technology develops beyond our capacity, a manifestation that can occur in an infinite number of manners. To assume that the technology will be inevitably hostile is foolish. To assume that they will not only be hostile, but actively engage in genocide is also foolish. To assume they will not only be hostile, but engage in genocide, and inevitably wipe out all organic existence is bafflingly foolish. To think every singularity in all civilisations in all existence will mirror this hypothetical is just absurd. Just considering the steepness of the slippery slope this reasoning requires is giving me illogic burns.

#19
Il Divo

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The Razman wrote...

I don't mean to be rude ... but there does exist an entire section within the OP which explains exactly why what you've just said is incorrect.


I'm afraid not. If the Star Child is employing logic, you should be able to point to where in his dialogue I can find a premise to support his conclusion. Since his claim relies on a slippery slope, an informal fallacy, it requires some form of backing in order to meet the demands of logic.

Anything can be justified on the grounds that "X is inevitable".

There is nothing established regarding either the Geth or EDI which makes their status as synthetics responsible for the combat with organics, any more than any other feature which separates other species.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 mai 2012 - 04:34 .


#20
xsdob

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Saren also used faulty logic, submit to the reapers and you'll live and not be indoctrinated, except for all the other guys who submitted to the reapers while working for them and turned into vegetables, but that won't happen to me right?

#21
What a Succulent Ass

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xsdob wrote...

Saren also used faulty logic,

And ended up dying because of it.

#22
The Razman

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someone else wrote...

The simplest course of action starbrat could have taken is have the reapers intervene if synthetics threatened to get out of hand - in fact, easier to reduce their numbers effectively than wipe out a messy dispersed bunch of organics. It is plausible that Shepard will be enforcing this very strategy under the control ending.

Genocide is completely overkill (sorry for the obvious pun) Starbrats mechanical pets could just as effectively "bomb 'em back into the stoneage" where the upstart species would be safe for at least another 50K years. Again, in the larger context, Starbrat's ideas are bankrupt.

Again, not meaning to be rude ... but I explicitly explained why this is an incorrect assertion in the OP. "Bombing a species back into the stone age" (whatever that even means) isn't even logically possible ... once you've invented technology, you can't uninvent it once its in the public domain. Knowledge of technology is something you can't undo.

You can keep on destroying the product of the technology, at great expense to everyone involved ... or you stop it at the source by making sure the technology is never invented. It's not even a choice really ... the latter is the most logical.

#23
Icinix

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GhostV9 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

GhostV9 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the
galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most
technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping
the technology level below a safe threshold.


The problem is, that "force" is the very same thing he's trying to prevent from happening.


But in the eyes of the Synthetics, they are preventing it. They see no distinction between keeping a living walking talking organic and having their essence stored as genetic code in a machine. Because they aren't organic, they don't understand organic.


Right. Which is exactly why it's called a faulty logic.. The Catalyst doesn't fully understand what it's talking about. It's unfit to make these kinds of decisions, and it's tragic that it created the solution that it did.


Indeed it is unfit to make those kind of decisions, its tragic that it did.

But in the eyes of the synthetic - its not faulty logic - its perfect.

In our eyes, its faulty because its not an organic solution.

It works in the basic rudimentary form and during an ideas session between organics this kind of solution would have come up as possible - but it would have been discarded because of the brutality and flaws Organics see. Flaws that synthetics don't see as flaws.

Don't get me wrong - I think its dumb - and I hate the endings. Outright loathe them. But the synthetic solution that has been used for thousands if not millions of cycles is perfect in the logic of a synthetic.

#24
Rombomm

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So how do you explain the Reapers creating the Mass Relays so that we would "develop along the paths we desire" and outright CONTROLLING the Geth in order to harvest organics?

#25
JBONE27

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Icinix wrote...

GhostV9 wrote...

The Razman wrote...
So it creates a force which will make sure that technology in the
galaxy never advances beyond a certain point by destroying the most
technologically developed civilisations every 50,000 years, thus keeping
the technology level below a safe threshold.


The problem is, that "force" is the very same thing he's trying to prevent from happening.


But in the eyes of the Synthetics, they are preventing it. They see no distinction between keeping a living walking talking organic and having their essence stored as genetic code in a machine. Because they aren't organic, they don't understand organic.


But the thing that created them was supposedly organic, therefore it would recognize the difference.  Therefore faulty logic.