126 réponses à ce sujet

[ArchDuck]

Noelemahc wrote...

Holy hell, this was nice and to the point. Why did they decide to obfuscate them so badly? This doesn't make them any less pleasant, but it certainly makes them more comprehensible and less reprehensible =)

[digidroid]

The differences in the dialog provide a bit more clarity. I fear this is probably what we can expect from the EC DLC.

But it does not change the fact, it even makes it more obvious, that the whole ending concept is out of place.
Nowhere in the main story arc has AI-singularity been the major issue. You run around for 100+ hours gathering troops, brokering peace (or not) and generally take care of business, then it turns out it has nothing at all to do with the points they're trying to make with the ending.

It reminds me of one of the "The Scary Door" episodes from Futurama, the one that ends with "Turns out it's man".

[shepskisaac]

digidroid wrote...

The differences in the dialog provide a bit more clarity. I fear this is probably what we can expect from the EC DLC.

But it does not change the fact, it even makes it more obvious, that the whole ending concept is out of place.
Nowhere in the main story arc has AI-singularity been the major issue. You run around for 100+ hours gathering troops, brokering peace (or not) and generally take care of business, then it turns out it has nothing at all to do with the points they're trying to make with the ending.

It reminds me of one of the "The Scary Door" episodes from Futurama, the one that ends with "Turns out it's man".

Urhm... EDI. Geth. Rouge AIs. The theme has been present in the franchise since Day 1

[ogtrplganggrl]

Wulfram wrote...

The technological singularity stuff is a legitimate sci-fi concept, and could be a decent motivation for the Reapers. But it's not something you can spring in the last 5 minutes of the story, when you've got nothing which really supports it previously.  That's just poor writing.

[NYG1991]

It makes more sense with regard to the relays. I'm fine with the destroy option actually destroying stuff. Also makes it more renegade.

The way it described synthesis seemed less drastic physically without the "new DNA" but I'd still like more detail about what it's synthesizing.

Is it implanting everyone with reaper nanotech? Also what's it doing to synthetics to make them more like organics? Or is it similar to what legion did with the geth where it's a direct personality dissemination? where Shepard and the catalyst are both added to the crucible and there thought processes are sent out making organics and synthetics more alike.


Lastly, what happens to the reapers in synthesis? Do they just drop dead cause they have no purpose or are they going to stay around and try and live with us?

[Wulfram]

IsaacShep wrote...
Urhm... EDI. Geth. Rouge AIs. The theme has been present in the franchise since Day 1

AI vs Organics has been there.  AI singularity as threat to organic life as a whole, hasn't.

The closest we got was the Reapers.  Except, we're told they're the solution, not the problem.

[shepskisaac]

Wulfram wrote...

AI vs Organics has been there.  AI singularity as threat to organic life as a whole, hasn't.

It was. Geth's Dyson Sphere could very well place them at singularity level of intelligence superiority over organics

[Taboo]

A new ascension?

Well that's..........still not an explanation.

And he still doesn't give any evidence or explain how he arrived at this findings.

I wouldn't believe him here either.

Sigh.

[Wulfram]

IsaacShep wrote...

It was. Geth's Dyson Sphere could very well place them at singularity level of intelligence superiority over organics

Well, the partially constructed Dyson Sphere clearly didn't, since the Quarians trounced them before the Reapers got involved.  And there's no indication given that the Geth would pose a threat to Organics in that state.

A couple of offhand lines that are somewhat connected to the subject is not the same as introducing a theme, and certainly not enough for it to be revealed as the driving force behind the whole series.

[Peregrin25]

Way I see it. Even is that dialogue is better than what we got. What is the purpose of a guardian or a catalyst or mystical deity in the first place? It doesn't even follow along with the proper plot of the Mass Effect story.

I say in the most sincere way, from the point you pass out and ride the mystical elevator to talk with the catalyst shouldn't be there in the first place. It is a cheap cop out method of ending a story when you lack creativity to come up with something with more of that bad ass effect. That something that makes you say... "Holy sh*t that was freaking bad ass!" not "OMG what the hell did they do?"

Even with those changes if they were put back in still so many unanswered questions. If it hadn't been changed in the first place people would still be upset with what we got. End result would have been the same but with maybe a less hostile attitude to why the star kid was in there to begin with.

[Ryuukishi]

I don't see any difference really. SLIGHTLY different wording, concepts and explanation (or lack thereof) pretty much identical.

[Ieldra]

Yeah, but that different wording makes the whole thing make sense. As opposed to what we got in the game. Within the parameters of the scene it's actually quite good. Of course, the fact still remains that you're presented with the solutions by the leader of the faction you've fought all along. But I can work around that. Working around nonsensical descriptions is harder.

[shepskisaac]

Wulfram wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

It was. Geth's Dyson Sphere could very well place them at singularity level of intelligence superiority over organics

Well, the partially constructed Dyson Sphere clearly didn't, since the Quarians trounced them before the Reapers got involved.  And there's no indication given that the Geth would pose a threat to Organics in that state.

A couple of offhand lines that are somewhat connected to the subject is not the same as introducing a theme, and certainly not enough for it to be revealed as the driving force behind the whole series.

Being a threat is not the point. The point is that Geth could achieve the level of intelligence incomprehensible to organics. Tech Singularity is not about "AIs will surely kill us all". It's about the gap between organic intelligence and AI. "Such advanced AIs will surely kill us all" is just one scenario of what could happen. The Catalyst belives in that scenario, doesn't mean it's true and it doesn't mean Shepard = the player has to agree with him.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[Wulfram]

Being a threat is exactly the point, when we're talking about ME3.

And anyway, there has been no observable gap between AI and organic intelligence.

[Taboo]

The question I have to ask is...........

If the geth achieved such a state of intelligence why would they need to do anything to organics?

It goes into the whole "silence of god" debate.

If they are infinitely greater they have no reason to interact with us.

[The Protheans]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's still ****, I thought this was about Dark Energy.

[FlyinElk212]

Synthesis is still a broken concept, but yes. This is better.

It also makes Control the undeniably best choice out there. Probably why so much ambiguity was thrown into the Control option in-game.

[shepskisaac]

The Protheans wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's still ****, I thought this was about Dark Energy.

Dark Energy is 10 times ****ter

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 mai 2012 - 06:05 .

[BunBun299]

azerSheppard wrote...

Unless I'm shown something similar to what it's telling me then I dismiss it as bullsh*t. 

The Catalyst is talking about a pretty specific situation. Organics will always create synthetics, these synthetics will always try to wipe out all organic life, and these synthetics can't be stopped.

There's literally nothing in this game that even comes close to that. Literally nothing. The kid may be an eons old machine intelligence that has seen it happen many time before, but despite it being a flawed premise to being with, unless it actually uses some solid reasoning to convince me that I should take it seriously I will continue to ignore its little problem.

So you would dismiss anything you can't see? Do you dismiss the theory of evolution because you can't see it occur? What about quantum fluctuations? The big bang?
Just because the scope goes beyond your reasoning ability, does not make it false.


This is an erronous way of thinking, the failure here isn't the theory behind tech singularity and unfriendly super AI, rather the failed way of BW executing this plot thread. You say you won't believe it unless it's told with solid reasoning, I say they should have had given solid reasoning to convince the players.
But this is very DIFFICULT to do, and therefore BW originally decided for the reapers to be incomprehensible, due to our "feeble minds".

It's a singularity, and the machine is intelligent with at least the basics of human ways of thinking. There's no certainty with this, there can't be. It's specifically called a singularity and an event horizon because we don't know what happens after it. There's no reason to believe an AI will think this way other than the Catalyst's word, which is worthless. 

That is actually a rather old theory, but according to recent discoveries, making a "friendly" AI is harder than an "unfriendly" one. Therefore there would be a larger chance for UAI to achieve singularty.

Also an tech singularity would not follow basic human thinking, as it can change it's "source code" to whatever it likes. THAT is what predefines an UAI, being "shackled" is defined as FAI, because as soon as a FAI can change it's source code, it can chage it's way of thinking to whatever it more profitable.

The catalyst is an example of a friendly super AI, one that is definetly shackled to some level. I would think it's word is superior to a human, whose vision is limited, a being like the Star Child, unlike us, is free from the strains of time, and therefore sees everything objectively. Data comes in, data gets analysed, new viewpoint is added. Best viewpoint is chosen.

What two other authors have said is irrelevant. 

Anyone who reads Arthur  would know about his ideas on nanotechnology,(and therefore would call "space magic" on eveything, except actual space magic know as biotics and ME) and also the idea that someone somewhere in the universe has already reached a singularity, and may have set plans to prohibit others to achieve it.

Wait a minute, I don't know if someone else has commented on this yet, but, how the frak does the Catalyst qualify as a friendly AI!? It directs the Reapers to wipe out all advanced life in the galaxy every 50,000 years or so. Its been doing this for at least a billion years. Its death toll is completely incalculable. You have to go to comic book villains like Darkseid or Thanos to even approach something as ebil as the Catalyst. I don't care what warped logic it uses to justify its existance, its pure evil and has to die.

[The Protheans]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's still ****, I thought this was about Dark Energy.

Dark Energy is 10 times ****ter

10 Times ****ter than what we got?
No that's not possible, this ending was so **** the main group of people who liked it did not actually think it happened.
I don't think anything will top the **** implications of that.

Modifié par The Protheans, 11 mai 2012 - 06:29 .

[PsyrenY]

Wulfram wrote...

AI vs Organics has been there.  AI singularity as threat to organic life as a whole, hasn't.

Er, we had a fraction of the Geth decide to hate organics based on a math blip, murder a whole mess of organics with no sanction or reaction from their fellows, then try to mass-brainwash the benign ones to see things their way. And they took 300 years to exceed technology that the organic races needed 50,000 years to get.

The danger is both clear and present.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

AI vs Organics has been there.  AI singularity as threat to organic life as a whole, hasn't.

Er, we had a fraction of the Geth decide to hate organics based on a math blip, murder a whole mess of organics with no sanction or reaction from their fellows, then try to mass-brainwash the benign ones to see things their way. And they took 300 years to exceed technology that the organic races needed 50,000 years to get.

The danger is both clear and present.

But if they achieved a god-like sentience they would have no reason to harm anything.

It fits the whole concept of people trying to understand something they cannot.

[Clayless]

Why has no one pointed out that this isn't in the leaked script?

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The question I have to ask is...........

If the geth achieved such a state of intelligence why would they need to do anything to organics?

It goes into the whole "silence of god" debate.

If they are infinitely greater they have no reason to interact with us.

Yes, but they also have no reason to ascribe any significance to us. That's the point. The geth may not yet be at that point, but the kind of AI we're talking about sees organic life about as important as we see bacteria. There's no malice, just disregard. And if the AI needs something and that requires removing organics - as a side effect - it will do so. At least that's the premise.

@Our_last_scene:
What i posted in the OP *is* in the leaked script. In the long version. Not in the very old one that was leaked first.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, but they also have no reason to ascribe any significance to us. That's the point. The geth may not yet be at that point, but the kind of AI we're talking about sees organic life about as important as we see bacteria. There's no malice, just disregard. And if the AI needs something and that requires removing organics - as a side effect - it will do so. At least that's the premise.

How does synthesis stop that kind of AI from happening? It doesn't. As I posted before, if synthetics can adapt/create technology faster than organics, then how can a hybrid keep up with a pure synthetic? Pure synthetics can be created after the Synthesis decision. If a pure synthetic holds any advantage over a hybrid, then what was the point of synthesis to stop the singularity?