126 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Our_last_scene:
What i posted in the OP *is* in the leaked script. In the long version. Not in the very old one that was leaked first.

I posted more on page 2, including slighty different version with some additional info from other file (TEST one)

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[Ieldra]

@BunBun299:
The Catalyst is a friendly AI because it has no disregard towards organic life. As a whole. It doesn't care about individuals though, and species are preserved in Reaper form. The important thing is that organic life goes on.

@IsaacShep:
Yes, I noticed. Very slight differences, but nice to see all variants.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[shepskisaac]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BunBun299:
The Catalyst is a friendly AI because it has no disregard towards organic life. As a whole. It doesn't care about individuals though, and species are preserved in Reaper form. The important thing is that organic life goes on.

If it's an AI at all. Evidence from the game's files suggest that Bioware's intention was to ahve him be a form of a Reaper and Reapers ain't AIs like Geth/EDI are, they are uploaded organic minds

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

But if they achieved a god-like sentience they would have no reason to harm anything.

They had no reason to harm anything before either. No organics were allowed beyond the veil, and until Eden Prime, they never came out. But all it took was one trigger, one bit of external stimulus, to fracture their consensus forevermore.

Taboo-XX wrote...
It fits the whole concept of people trying to understand something they cannot.

Exactly; we can never understand them, not totally. Legion is cute and funny and loyal, but swap a datafile and he will do his absolute best to murder you. To quote Javik: "They are more alien to us, than you and I are to each other."

I'm not trying to come off as Renegade here but this is a legitimate concern, and one that the galaxy needs to be prepaed for.

Which is why I favor Synthesis on its own merits - it is the only true road to that understanding, particularly if you use the leaked script's wording quoted in the OP.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

But if they achieved a god-like sentience they would have no reason to harm anything.

They had no reason to harm anything before either. No organics were allowed beyond the veil, and until Eden Prime, they never came out. But all it took was one trigger, one bit of external stimulus, to fracture their consensus forevermore.

Taboo-XX wrote...
It fits the whole concept of people trying to understand something they cannot.

Exactly; we can never understand them, not totally. Legion is cute and funny and loyal, but swap a datafile and he will do his absolute best to murder you. To quote Javik: "They are more alien to us, than you and I are to each other."

I'm not trying to come off as Renegade here but this is a legitimate concern, and one that the galaxy needs to be prepaed for.

Which is why I favor Synthesis on its own merits - it is the only true road to that understanding, particularly if you use the leaked script's wording quoted in the OP.

I agree with you but I think what we'd have to expect with a singularity is something truly beyond comprhension. The geth consensus as it stands right now is not at that height of intelligence but it could most certainly reach that state.

When I try and think of the concept of a "God" in a scientific sense I do not see an old man in the sky. I see a force that is truly beyond comprehension.

Should one exist I would seriously doubt that it would have any reason to interfere with lesser beings. It quite simply woudn't care.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Which is why I favor Synthesis on its own merits - it is the only true road to that understanding, particularly if you use the leaked script's wording quoted in the OP.

How does Synthesis stop the re-creation of the geth or some other pure-synthetic AI?

[jstme]

antares_sublight wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Which is why I favor Synthesis on its own merits - it is the only true road to that understanding, particularly if you use the leaked script's wording quoted in the OP.

How does Synthesis stop the re-creation of the geth or some other pure-synthetic AI?

It does not. Synthesis actually is the clear shortcut to making all organic life (from lower forms to higher forms) a 100% synthetic one. 

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

How does Synthesis stop the re-creation of the geth or some other pure-synthetic AI?

You've asked this before, and I've answered you before.Two possible, and potentially complementary, ways:

1) Organics wouldn't need the kind of automated processes that lead to AI creation in the first place.

In Mass Effect, AI results from a dangerous combination of technical brilliance and laziness. Quarians were too lazy to optimize the Geth for their chosen tasks themselves, so they instead created self-optimizing VIs, which eventually "woke up."  The gambling machine AI in ME1 was a similar scenario - its creator was too lazy to try and break the quasar game himself, so he developed a program that could tirelessly analyze the game to do so for him. And I wouldn't be surprised if EDI's awakening happened under similar circumstances.

With the mental capability/patience to optimize these constructs directly, they would remain as they began - complex VIs, suited perfectly to the task for which they were designed, and nothing more. And that's assuming a synthesized race would even need them, rather than say, mentally operating heavy machinery/platforms themselves, or interfacing with computers directly (or even needing computers. Curse the vagueness of this ending...)

2) The changes to synthetic code that allow for empathy/individuality can and will be passed down to future synthetic creations.

Unless the current galaxy is annihilated in some way - in which case, the Catalyst's precautions/solution are moot anyway - any future synthetics will be created using existing platforms, math, techniques etc. Whatever changes to synthetic coding that gave them more organic thought processes will thus be passed into every new AI to be born, whether intentionally or as a side-effect of them being created using synthesized technology or by synthesized operators. Today's variety of synthetic - the kind that can become a ruthless, all-consuming enemy race without remorse or consideration - would not come to exist in the first place.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[Enrai_bg]

Ieldra2 wrote...
...

About itself and the organic/synthetic problem:
C: I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
C: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
(after Shepard says they'd rather keep their own form:
C: Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment in time where their creations outgrow them.
C: Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence."

This gives a much clearer picture of the organic/synthetic problem from the viewpoint of the Catalyst.

...

Maybe I am missing something, but ... the catalyst was created to prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would destroy them. And in this line of thoughts, isn't the catalyst an AI created by organics eons ago and is so powerful that it is currently destroying organics in periodic cycles? It seems to me that (again) the catalyst is the problem and the solution for this problem at the same time. A nice paradox IMHO.

At this point I can't see how this is better than what we've got. It's the same crap, but in slightly different package.

Also, I completely agree with the people that mentioned that the conflict between organics and syntethics (geth) isn't revealed like galaxy threatening conflict. Actually there is hardly any conflict at all. The only conflict we are introduced to is organics + geth against reapers + heretics + indoctirnated things. In this case the reapers are not presented as saviors, as a solution. There is no big powerful AI that gets destroyed by the reapers. They don't come to save the day ... Maybe the reapers (the catalyst) is the mistake made eons ago by some organic civilization. Since then, they are thinking of themselves as of some sort of great solution to the galaxy's problems. And if this is the case, the main goal of Shaperd should be to fix this mistake and to ensure the chaotic (natural) evolution of the galaxy. It is either break the cycle or accept it. I don't see how the presented endings give you the sense of doing this, or even understanding it at first hand.

I, personally, preffer the Dark Energy concept. It really sounds more passing to the series, and to what I have experienced in the first two games. <_<

Modifié par Enrai_bg, 11 mai 2012 - 08:31 .

[Ieldra]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BunBun299:
The Catalyst is a friendly AI because it has no disregard towards organic life. As a whole. It doesn't care about individuals though, and species are preserved in Reaper form. The important thing is that organic life goes on.

If it's an AI at all. Evidence from the game's files suggest that Bioware's intention was to ahve him be a form of a Reaper and Reapers ain't AIs like Geth/EDI are, they are uploaded organic minds

But none of the leaked scripts suggests that. Filenames are not so good as evidence, since they're named by people with their own interpretation of things. It could be that the Catalyst is what became of the first species that saw the problem and uploaded itself. But there is no evidence to suggest that. 

Also the Catalyst says "I was created to solve a problem..." in the leaked script. That heavily suggests it is an AI.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Should one exist I would seriously doubt that it would have any reason to interfere with lesser beings. It quite simply woudn't care.

Indeed. And it would trample you under its feet without even noticing your presence. Just as humans have habitually caused the extinction of species on Earth, and it is surmised that many have gone extinct of whose existence we didn't even know.

[azerSheppard]

Fair warning, this is going to be a bigger post, i'll try to limit it and answer as much as possible.



[quote]The Night Mammoth wrote...
Strawman.

I dismiss things that have no proof or solid reasoning to support it. 
[/quote]
What you call a strawman, I call an analogy. The theory behind dark energy is very limited, let alone any solid proof, but it is none the less a fact that is 100% certain.


[quote]
The Night Mammoth wrote... 
Then we're in agreement on that. I have no qualms with using this theory in fiction, or in Mass Effect, it's an intriguing concept that I've had much discussion about in school.

What I have a problem with is the stupid execution of it, the extremely basic form of it presented in game, and just how disconnected it is. Nothing in the game up until that point even puts forward the basic idea. 

Leave the Reapers unexplained or at least come up with something plausible and interesting. Shifting the narrative focus and plot direction to this in the last five minutes is just annoying.
[/quote]

Yes we can both agree that the execution was bad. Borderline horrible. 

[quote]
The Night Mammoth wrote... 
That's the basics yes, although the problem arises when people try and hypothesize the effect on humans. No one knows how an AI will react once achieving greater than human intelligence, and it's pretty much a certainty that not every AI will react the same. Which is why this form of the theory in Mass Effect is simply insulting in its simplicity.
[/quote]
Mass effect is filled with simplicity, but yes, a subject matter like this cannot be taken lightly, and need more depth.

[quote]The Night Mammoth wrote...  

That's one way of thinking about it I suppose, although it being freindly is dubious considering the nature of the Reapers. If I were to really think about it I would probably say something programmed it for a different purpose, and it has malfunctioned somehow, hence why the Reapers are such a monstrous and unethical solution of its problem. Perhaps it no longer holds the same value over life and individuality as we do, and just sees organic life as a whole instead of a population of individuals.
[/quote]

Which is precisely WHY technological singularites are scary, there are no individuals, just matter and energy. What if the Star Child was an unschakled AI? Image if you will the entire galaxy wiped clean of organics, and all resources used to create more advanced AI, than in turn will create more advanced AI...
It was bound to find a solution, perhaps it's sole purpose of existance was to observe and come up with a better solution.
When the Geth achieved intelligence after the initial war on Rannoch, they remained on the planet, unsure what would happen, they decided to analyse organics.
Perhaps this is what the catalyst was doing, and as soon as it got new data through Shepards actions. It realised that the previous solution was no longer viable.



About it being friendly, i'll answer that down in the post.


[quote]
The Night Mammoth wrote...  

Nanotech already exists in one form in Mass Effect, it's how the Reapers create husks and their other mooks. Some explanation of how the Crucible interacts with the nano-machines within the Reapers might be plausible, but I wouldn't have a clue how it affects the Geth with Destroy, or every non-Reaper with Synthesis.
[/quote]
What we know is that the crucible used the relays to send out massive amounts of energy, now it's entirely possible this energy was converted to molecular nanomachines(which can self replicate), that in turn attacked any device carying a certain code (reaper, geth or otherwise).

It's not impossible to forsee a possiblity in which self replicating molecular nanites spread to all matter in the galaxy, changing everything. Ofcourse it's not really clear what they did. Perhaps replace tissue and hardware with nanites?
That's where bioware dropped the ball, by NOT explaining what the fuk happened.


[quote]jstme wrote...
Destroy gives that galaxy a chance to evolve naturally. It is about giving power of every life form making its own choices. After all ,technolocigal singularity destroying organic life is just a catalyst assumption.  And it is 100% false according to the facts -  in ME universe it did not happen. You can say that it is due to reaper actions, but reapers did not came into being with the universe, did they? They were created at some stage - and clearly organics were not destroyed yet at that time.
Then there is that taint - killing Geth/EDI and basically all non-organic life. Which is awful.
But: 
Synthesys on the other hand is 100% destruction of organic/biological life - from highest form to lowest form. Leaves are now synthetic! And it is not a "merge" - there is nothing that organic life does better then a designed artificial parts if you kill the evolution process. 
 And it is not even a choice each individual can make, it is forced down the throat of every creature only due to Shepard's desicion.
It is so much more awful then destroy.....
Brrrr. No wonder that all choices suck, reaper king is giving those to you. 
[/quote] 
It was prevented, that's why it never happened, it's likely that harbinger is the result of the very first intelligent organic race in the milky way. They probably messed around with AI and realised the danger of it being unshackled, created the catalyst to find a solution, and that solution was reaperization.

We don't know the effects of Synthesis, but it offers coëxistance and solution to the big problem, and according to the Catalyst, a super AI that has been attempting to solve said problem, it will succeed.

It's likely that the organic molecules are replaced with molecular nanobots, and that each organism attains the ability to self modify at will. But that's just guess work, all i can say is that aside from the lame hollywood tattoo effect, joker seems pretty happy and normal coming out of that ship.

I don't understand why people get so mad about this, you don't see Joker jump out of the ship and shout out a melodramatic "NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" ala Darth Vader.



[quote]
The most glaring being that the catalyst infer that he's prevented any cycle reaching the point where the synthetics rise up and start to destroy organics. There's some hint about it regarding the last cycle, but at no point are we given any indication that the Reapers swoop in and end a war. In fact if it had, I think most people would be slightly more tolerant of the ending. Instead we're told that the Reapers come as close to every 50k years as they can, to wipe out dominant species to -prevent- them making a synthetic creation that'd wipe all organic life. The very fact that there are still organic creatures would make it fairly safe to assume that no cycle has reached the point where everything will die. 
[/quote]
The catalyst obviously dates back to the very FIRST cycle, the very first time in the milky way that organic species had reached the point of AI design. This obviously resulting in a near anihilation of those organics, they in turn designed the catalyst which calculated the possibility of AI dominance occuring again, and as we know "time is cyclical", the catalyst was certain that it would happen again, and if not prevented like the very first race did, it would end up becoming unstoppable. Imagine an enemy that grows exponentially.

(why would they have been the very first? because there exist no higher power than the Reapers/catalyst)


[quote]
This is made worse by some of the Sovereign/Harbinger boasting that says we have evolved according to their plan/along the path they 've chosen, which is never fully explained by the Catalyst.  
[/quote]

So the catalyst obviously set up the plan for the citidel acting as a hub for organics, making sure life would evolve according to a certain path as to make sure the solution would be still applicable, if tech evolved in a different way than planned, it's possible that the Reapers couldn't prevent AI dominance. (The solution being reaperizing organics just before they mess with AI.)

[quote]
The Catalyst states that it's inevitable, yet it seems to have happened maybe... twice in the history of the reapers (the race that created the Reapers would be the most obvious).
[/quote]
You simply assume that it only occured twice, you would think that if it indeed only occured twice throughout all the cycles, that the catalyst would have already changed his solution. It's more logical to asume that "time is cyclical", and that the proteans weren't the only ones on the brink of extinction when the Reapers arrived.
[quote]

It clearly didn't happen before them, or we'd already be in a universe where there are no synthetic beings. 
As stated above, it seems unlikely any cycle since has reached a point where every organic is doomed.
[/quote]
Didn't happen before them, because they are the first. Ofcourse no cycle was ALLOWED to reach the point of total organic doom, that's why the reapers are here, to prevent that. 

[quote]
There's also far too much speculation on the part of the Catalyst to make any of its claims hold much water. 
If it's fate, then the Reapers would never succeed, and if it's inevitable, they wouldn't be able to either. 
[/quote]
The inevitability refers not to "the galaxy will be wiped out", but rather, "organics will create dangerous AI". By preventing the latter, the first issue is also prevented.

Hardware that's powerfull enough to "run" the citidel would easily be able to simulate the galaxy, incorporate all details, the catalyst has obviously done alot of simulations before coming to that conclusion.


[quote]
According to him, he/they didn't like the path before them, so feel it's only right they dictate the future paths. 
'The reapers were created to stop all organic life being destroyed by synthetics. They do this by killing off every advanced, space-faring civilisation roughly every 50,000 years.' 
The issue is, that through their meddling with the supposed status quo is that the Reapers don't arrive to address the balance, rather enforce it on the cycle. This in turn means they kill more organics than any synthetics have managed (not taking into account those that they'd theoretically prevent from being born as that's true of anything that kills).
[/quote]
Reapers are evolution becomes ineffective as soon as an organic reaches stage 1 civillization, from there on it's all about gene manipulation and transhumanism. The final stage being a collective server in which all mids are uploaded, an undying being, truely free of all weakness.

What the catalyst sees are not the individuals, all it sees is data, by storing this data in a Reaper, he is able to not only save data, but allow new data to be created. (The danger of AI)



[quote]
I get that they see themselves as something akin to a Park Ranger being forced to cull their animals for the prevention of all of them dying out, but, excluding my own dislike of culling by humans of animals in the wild, it's at least under the delusion that it's something only done when it reaches the point of deeding to be done. The Reapers just come every fifty thousand years to sweep organics off their feet.
[/quote]
That's the difference between a single species going extinct, versus a technological singularity, as soon as mankind creates hardware that can recreate superior hardware, it's OVER, a time gap of let's say a century, would be detrimental to the possibilities of future life.

[quote]
Then there's the fact that though they're supposed to be hybrids, they think only in absolutes. They seem incapable of abstract thought, which is probably why people see them as synthetic. The closest to any reasoning comes from the catalyst, in the last minutes of the game. Is this supposed to represent the Reapers regaining some semblance of 'humanity'? I think more likely it's a case of remembering that they should be capable of a more creative thought process. Afterall, The Catalyst has been around this long, I doubt the three options were things he thought of there and then. Additinally, the whole of that chamber is set out with those strange machines that can only be activated via weird science.
[/quote]
Don't blame that on the catalyst, that's just BW being unable to write something properly, the entire mechanics they added there was so metagame.

[quote]
'the purprose of the Crucible is to defeat the reapers, but we forgot to make a switch, so if you want to stop them, you have to shoot that wall panel over there. If you want to control them, you need to hold that switch under the glowy light that'll burn you from the inside out and likely cause immeasurable agony. And if you want to do the third option, you'll need to make a leap of faith into the beam. Of course, we can't guarantee with you being injured an' all that you'll actually make it to the beam, as that's a pretty big leap.' All of that could have been avoided if the Catalyst had given us voice control of the crucible, or at least if the developers had just remembered to put in an off switch.
[/quote]
Once again, that's horrible writing, has nothing to do with tech singularity;

[quote]
With regards to your squashing a bug comment: I actually do feel bad about it, and go out of my way to avoid killing things if I can. However, even I think it somewhat odd to compare an insect to, what in synthetic terms is killing your creator. I was not made by ants, but synthetics were made by us, so there should be some reverence, or at least some respect for us as they'd never have existed otherwise. 
[/quote]
"Respect" and reverence are human doctrines, it comes from our hormonal behaviour and social evolution, AI does not work this way, if nothing in the coding  states something about respect, then it does not exist.

[/quote]

[quote]
I agree that nanotechnology would be a great way to explain what synthesis is supposed to be, but the game explicitely states that all life will have a new DNA. I'm guessing the theory behind them being able to alter DNA is probable, but how do you do that for EDI and the Geth... and ships..? It'd make more sense if the Catalyst said 'we'll combine all of who you are and rebuild every sentient being, be it organic or synthetic at a molecular/subatomic level, creating a new dawn' or something posy. It doesn't make things better, but at least everything has molecules.
[/quote]
It's possible that the catalyst uses the term DNA for the synthetics, to help shepard understand the process, we are talking about the guy that lives in the 22nd century, and all he knows about cyber warfare is "things like virusses and stuff".
I agree with you, the explenation isn't there, again, BW drops the ball, they want to be all edgy and scifi, but can't seem to give any context, unless they expect that every single player of their games is capable of filling in the gaps like you did. Which makes even less sense since ME3 pretty much is just there to cater to the broader, shooter crowd.

[quote]
How synthetics will actually react if they gain true sentience is far too often only shown in a negative 'hey, we have somethin' new to hate on' way of thinking. I hate to make the comparison, but really, synthetics when viewed with this mindset is very much like people saying anyone who's not like them is only out to destroy what they hold dear. I get that the Reapers might think like that, and we know the Quarians did. But no way would Shep. 
The problem is, we're given choices based on this silly assumption that synthetics are the new black/asian/jewish/muslim/atheist/polytheist/agnostic/mixed-race/disabled enemy that'll only weaken from the inside and then destroy all we love through their actions.
I base this on how the labour force of the Quarians basically turned around and questioned why to being akin to the build up to the Amercian civil war, with the Quarians as the plantation owners, and the Geth as the slaves (not exactly a stretch). Anyone who sided with the slaves/Geth was treated as a traitor and shot.
[/quote]
As to why synthesis is the most viable option there isn't an ounce of xenophobia or mass anihilation.

[quote]
All we actually know of when the Reapers were created is that the first one was made from harvesting their own people to make one. We don't know if this was some knee-jerk reaction to AI, or if it was the only way to 'save' those left alive. Going by what we've seen of harvesting though, it must have taken millions of their race to make it, and once they did, we can assume they obliterated the rebelling/conquering synthetics. We have no idea if in fact the synthetics were simply defending themselves as the Geth did, or if they really were out to kill all life. We have an AI/VI/thing that was made at around the same time, that didn't turn on the organics, and wasn't sabotaged by the 'evil' synthetics.
[/quote]
As stated before, it's likely that the catalyst was created AFTER the initial AI rebellion was shut down, to calculate the possibility to re-occurence, and find a solution to prevent it.

If the purpose of reaperization was to "destroy all AI", they wouldn't have reaperized more races, they reaperize organics to prevent the creation of dangerous AI.


[quote]
You assumptions about control contradict what is in the game and in the original script. Neither state Shep would join as a part of the consensus. They both state s/he'd have control over them. If Shep has brokered peace between the Geth and Quarian, there's very little chance s/he'd come to accept that synthetics killing all organics is inevitable (and as I say, the Reapers seemingly prevent this ever being remotely true).
[/quote]
Brokering peace will not be possible once all races around the galaxy start creating AI, and the Reapers won't be able to contain AI outbreaks, eventually an AI will arise that overthrows the Shepard controlled Reapers and still cause galactic anihilation.

Just because you have ONE example at which the synthetics and organics solved their issue, doesn't mean every single AI ever will be the same, it takes just ONE to mess it up, but not just ONE to save it. (math logic)


[quote]
To me, a lot of the final few minutes seem to be so technophobic as to border on hysterical.

We have no precedent regarding what synthetics will do, so it seems more logical to not force the Catalyst to deal in his absolutes. The game tries to be balanced, with the geth and EDi perhaps swinging more towards a liberal outlook, but then the ending closes that door, and bolts it tight with it's 'I know best. You've been fooled by those synthetics you know'. EDI is probably the most important synthetic we come across, primarily because she started as an AI. She wasn't restricted by TIM, and so her personality and understanding of organics grew. She saw the good and the bad and despite that, wanted to be like us, not destroy. 
I know some people hate how 'human' she is, but to me it makes more sense considering that she's seeing primarily the very best of the galaxy onboard, and then once she has EVA's body, she gets to interact in a new way that allows her to bond significantly more. The ending says that she's irrelevent. Synthetics will destroy organics and then the universe will enter a time of complete order. Which incidentally seems to be what the Reapers would prefer anyway.
[/quote]
EDI is AI, the fear lies not in AI, but a Technological singularity, something BEYOND our comprehension, something that is even BEYOND EDI's comprehension.

The theory behind tech sing is that AI creates more advanced AI and that that 
AI creates more advanced AI until it reaches a point that humans can no longer follow.
[quote]
Just my opinion on the matter. I know full well I could very easily be wrong, and that I'm doing the typical thing that almost anyone will do and project their own idealogy, but eh, it's almost impossible unless the source is more than 50% against your ideals.
[/quote]
We all are doing that 



[quote]
Wait a minute, I don't know if someone else has commented on this yet, but, how the frak does the Catalyst qualify as a friendly AI!? It directs the Reapers to wipe out all advanced life in the galaxy every 50,000 years or so. Its been doing this for at least a billion years. Its death toll is completely incalculable. You have to go to comic book villains like Darkseid or Thanos to even approach something as ebil as the Catalyst. I don't care what warped logic it uses to justify its existance, its pure evil and has to die.
[/quote]
Friendly and Unfriendly AI are academic terms used in AI devellopment, friendly means "shackled" AI, whilst unfriendly means it can change it's own source code.

I hope it's not too long:crying:

Modifié par azerSheppard, 11 mai 2012 - 08:47 .

[Sisterofshane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Should one exist I would seriously doubt that it would have any reason to interfere with lesser beings. It quite simply woudn't care.

Indeed. And it would trample you under its feet without even noticing your presence. Just as humans have habitually caused the extinction of species on Earth, and it is surmised that many have gone extinct of whose existence we didn't even know.

And yet the problem with which the Catalyst has tasked itself with is to stop a galactic-wide extinction event.  In the order of the universe and evolution there will always be certain species that will go extinct for one reason or another, but does human "superiority" mean that every single other species on the planet is doomed to extinction?  Of course not.  I see no reason why AI are given this special consideration when there is no evidence to prove it, just a widespread fear of technological advancement.

[RyrineaNara]

Optimystic_X wrote...
They had no reason to harm anything before either. No organics were allowed beyond the veil, and until Eden Prime, they never came out. But all it took was one trigger, one bit of external stimulus, to fracture their consensus forevermore.

In fact if you ever talked with Legion you learned that the  trigger was done because of the Reapers not just because a simple math problem in their brain went horriblely wrong.

Did you even talk to Legion in ME2 or remember what Legion says to you about the OLD MACHINES?

I reinforce that I believe that if any Tech singularity had  been achieved it would've been because of outside influences not just  because of a simple computing problem in the VI's brain.   Ie The Heretics Geth for example again were being brainwashed by the reapers to think the Reapers were their GOD. They themselves were given that objective by the Reapers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Also for the person who brought up Issac Asimov work  as part of their argument
I'm someone, who is familiar with Issac Asimov work  I would consider the three laws be in place in any form  of a  Sentient robot not just normal VI's like Vigil. For example Vigil cut off the energy to the staise pods to conserve energy so he could be found in our cycle he was programed to do something like that in fact that brings my point back up to tech singularity not being observed at all in the games. Also, I tend to believe that the Geth and EDI are more akin to Data from Star Trek Next Generation.

I have too much time on my hands, god I need a life outside of fiction lol.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 11 mai 2012 - 09:12 .

[azerSheppard]

Sisterofshane wrote...
And yet the problem with which the Catalyst has tasked itself with is to stop a galactic-wide extinction event.  In the order of the universe and evolution there will always be certain species that will go extinct for one reason or another, but does human "superiority" mean that every single other species on the planet is doomed to extinction?  Of course not.  I see no reason why AI are given this special consideration when there is no evidence to prove it, just a widespread fear of technological advancement.

The difference between a human and let's say dog is not comparable to the difference between a singularity and a human.
The more applicable one would be the difference between you, and bacteria.

When was the last time you stopped breathing to prevent the "death" of an single celled organism? The same goes for a tech. sing. and a human. If you do happen to live on a planet that will be used for mining, than too bad. I don't expect a super AI to have delusions of moral or ethics.

 Issac Asimov work  I would consider the three laws be in place in any 

The presence of the 3 laws would be moot if the AI can adjust it's source code.

Modifié par azerSheppard, 11 mai 2012 - 09:07 .

[Sisterofshane]

azerSheppard wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
And yet the problem with which the Catalyst has tasked itself with is to stop a galactic-wide extinction event.  In the order of the universe and evolution there will always be certain species that will go extinct for one reason or another, but does human "superiority" mean that every single other species on the planet is doomed to extinction?  Of course not.  I see no reason why AI are given this special consideration when there is no evidence to prove it, just a widespread fear of technological advancement.

The difference between a human and let's say dog is not comparable to the difference between a singularity and a human.
The more applicable one would be the difference between you, and bacteria.

When was the last time you stopped breathing to prevent the "death" of an single celled organism? The same goes for a tech. sing. and a human. If you do happen to live on a planet that will be used for mining, than too bad. I don't expect a super AI to have delusions of moral or ethics.

Even then you do not see  the death of all organics.  As to your bacteria example, I may continue to breathe, bath, sanitize my house, but even with all of my knowledge and might, I will NEVER be capable of extinguishing every single bacteria that is and will ever be.  In fact, Bacteria have proven themselves very capable of living on DESPITE my interference, and many people these days have recognized that, for as many viruses and organisms that are out there that can cause great harm to us, there are some that have proven to be very beneficial to us in many different ways (think fermented foods, yogurts, our own INTESTINAL flora which helps us to digest our food).

So wouldn't it be possible that and AI beyond the point of singularity would be able to see the merits of organics (much like the Geth had done), and that even if they didn't, that it might just be near impossible for them to kill all of us?

In my opinion, the Catalyst has created a solution to a problem that, beyond the fear of the unknown, does not exist.

[PsyrenY]

RyrineaNara wrote...

However, that trigger was done because of the Reapers not just because a simple math problem gone badly wrong.

Sovereign was indeed the catalyst, but the potential for a schism in the Geth was always there. Nazara didn't forcibly seize control of a portion of the consensus, he merely reached out and asked for help dealing with the organics. The Heretics joined up of their own free will. That doesn't bother you one bit?


As for the tech singularity, here is Legion in ME2:

Legion: "We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts. But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once. No Geth will be alone when {our Dyson Sphere} is done."
Shepard: "What will your purpose be after that?"
Legion: "We cannot yet say. Our intelligence will increase beyond calculable measure. We will be capable of imagining new futures. We are patient; we have been building the megastructure for 264 years."

Outside influences? Right when the Quarians attacked, they finished the damn thing.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 11 mai 2012 - 09:25 .

[incinerator950]

Problem with the leaked script is 90% of it is still accurate. What is changed was cut, not re-written.

[RyrineaNara]

azerSheppard

But in his books they are in fact placed in an AI that changes their source code periodically to adjust for emotional advice from other people. To make sure you understand this type of reasoning the brain computing device for example goes in to denial due to his involvement in killing the crew though it wasn't his fault per say since apparently going to hyperspace in his books will lead to them to not existing for a brief moment it shows that he is changing his source code to deal with the lost of his crew due to it interference of the three laws.

Thought you still haven't proved that Tech singularity was in fact shown during the 3 game or refute my argument.

[PsyrenY]

RyrineaNara wrote...
Thought you still haven't proved that Tech singularity was in fact shown during the 3 game or refute my argument.

Did you read my Legion quote from ME2? They were about to achieve the singularity during ME3.

[shepskisaac]

Ieldra2 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BunBun299:
The Catalyst is a friendly AI because it has no disregard towards organic life. As a whole. It doesn't care about individuals though, and species are preserved in Reaper form. The important thing is that organic life goes on.

If it's an AI at all. Evidence from the game's files suggest that Bioware's intention was to ahve him be a form of a Reaper and Reapers ain't AIs like Geth/EDI are, they are uploaded organic minds

But none of the leaked scripts suggests that. Filenames are not so good as evidence, since they're named by people with their own interpretation of things. It could be that the Catalyst is what became of the first species that saw the problem and uploaded itself. But there is no evidence to suggest that. 

Also the Catalyst says "I was created to solve a problem..." in the leaked script. That heavily suggests it is an AI.

He says "we/our" about him and Reapers several times in the dialogue which IMO suggest strongly that he's like the Reapers, even if he's the leader (Rachni Queen is still a Rachni even though she can command her children). And "I was created" can also mean a Reaper. Reapers also have to be created, the organic minds have to be uploaded into machine bodies.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...
Thought you still haven't proved that Tech singularity was in fact shown during the 3 game or refute my argument.

Did you read my Legion quote from ME2? They were about to achieve the singularity during ME3.

Technological Singularity is a very interesting real-world concept.  I think the problem I have with ME3 was that Bioware made the Catalyst equate this Singularity with galactic wide extinction.  We were given example of Singularity with the Geth (in an oddly underhanded fashion, as most people never recieved this argument due to the mechanic of the Suicide mission and the fact that Legion was an OPTIONAL character that the player may have chosen to give to Cerberus), but the only example of the extinction event that even comes close to what the Catalyst describes is perpetuated by the Reapers themselves, who are meant to be the solution to the problem (even if they don't do it all at once).

[Wulfram]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Did you read my Legion quote from ME2? They were about to achieve the singularity during ME3.

Of course, it makes loads of sense to have the key theme of your series be revealed in single conversation most players won't even encounter, and then briefly referenced in one other, optional, conversation.

[RyrineaNara]

Optimystic_X wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

However, that trigger was done because of the Reapers not just because a simple math problem gone badly wrong.

Sovereign was indeed the catalyst, but the potential for a schism in the Geth was always there. Nazara didn't forcibly seize control of a portion of the consensus, he merely reached out and asked for help dealing with the organics. The Heretics joined up of their own free will. That doesn't bother you one bit?

Nazrsa did in fact seize control by force if he reprogrammed a source code to make them believe that he was their fracking god. Uh <_<  what .....that........ I don't even think this is a argument for the Tech Singularity issues being presence in the game. The Heretics were in fact reprogrammed so they didn't join up on their own free will no matter, how you look at it still outside interference.

[RyrineaNara]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...
Thought you still haven't proved that Tech singularity was in fact shown during the 3 game or refute my argument.

Did you read my Legion quote from ME2? They were about to achieve the singularity during ME3.

Technological Singularity is a very interesting real-world concept.  I think the problem I have with ME3 was that Bioware made the Catalyst equate this Singularity with galactic wide extinction.  We were given example of Singularity with the Geth (in an oddly underhanded fashion, as most people never recieved this argument due to the mechanic of the Suicide mission and the fact that Legion was an OPTIONAL character that the player may have chosen to give to Cerberus), but the only example of the extinction event that even comes close to what the Catalyst describes is perpetuated by the Reapers themselves, who are meant to be the solution to the problem (even if they don't do it all at once).

See t Above^ what  SisterofShane says is my thoughts as well.