323 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Control solves neither problem. It delays Shepard's problem but it is implied the reapers will come back to reap of StarShep's own accord when synthetics rebel. Likewise, it doesn't solve the Catalyst's problem because it simply keeps the status quo of the Reapers doing their reaping.

IWhere it is implied?

What guarrentees that Shepard will think the same way after uploading into the system?

The simple fact that the catalyst is more open to this solution than destroy implies this.  If we view Shepard and the Catalyst as having separate goals, then the Catalyst should be equally negative to destroy and control if he assumes shepard will fly the reapers into the nearest sun, if not more in favor of Destroy as it will kill the potential threat of the geth.  However, he is far more positive to control because we can assume he believes Shepard will continue with his solution after Shepard ascends to Catalysthood and is able to comprehend the data.

Sure this cycle may be delayed, but the catalyst likely believes once the synthetics rebel, Shepard will fall in line with the reapers way of thinking of his own free will.

Nothing implies that he's open to anything. If he was he would stop the reapers right then  and there. If you look around he lets the reapers keep going. 
If you understand that he reallyy is not open to other salutions...Ask yourself this....How dose control and synthesis solve the problems he presents in any way?

Well, my original quote was snipped for length but on the previous page I outlined why the other two options achieve the Catalyst's objective.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Catalyst's level of control is severely limited in general or at least by the crucible.  If we take everything at face value, he says that the crucible has "changed" him, which might limit his ability to tell the repers to stop right there.  Or who knows, maybe he just isn't isn't ready to give in just yet and lets his squids keep killing until Shepard makes his choice.

As for the Catalyst being open.  He makes it quite clear the peace will not last in destroy, and that only you will die in Control.  Synthesis is quite clearly his favorite though.

I'm sorry but you need to show proof of this limit first. That would be a base less assuption.

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

And becuas e thesystem is in place...Do you know how I konw that...Ask yourself how control and sysnthesis solves any of the problem the star child brings up.

You find out that it doesn't....That  means it not over.

That the problem? The synthetics will rebel and kill all organic life? Even if they do, it wouldn't be continuation of the cycle. Even if Shepard will have brought the Reapers to wipe out rebellious synthetics, the cycle still won't be continued. The cycle would be restored only if Shepard would believe that the only way to save organig life is to wipe out civilazitions systematically.

No, the cycle is about imposing order, not harvesting all life. You have to understand that the perpose of everything the reapers are doing is about order and the motivation is organic destorying themselve by making sysntetics and going to war with them.  The cycle contious as long the problem is not solved.

[Lord Goose]

In the leaked script it goes like this:

Shepard: What would happen to me?
Catalyst: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.

Shepard might very well come to be convinced over thousands of years that the original cycle was a good idea.

Well, if that thas present in game, I would agree with you. But...

[antares_sublight]

Lord Goose wrote...

In the leaked script it goes like this:

Shepard: What would happen to me?
Catalyst: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.

Shepard might very well come to be convinced over thousands of years that the original cycle was a good idea.

Well, if that thas present in game, I would agree with you. But...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

[jijeebo]

Lord Goose wrote...

In the leaked script it goes like this:

Shepard: What would happen to me?
Catalyst: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.

Shepard might very well come to be convinced over thousands of years that the original cycle was a good idea.

Well, if that thas present in game, I would agree with you. But...

It is also worth noting that there is nothing to suggest that Shep is going to be convinced that Reaper logic is correct and pick up where they left off one day.

For all we know "as you see fit" could involve Shepard making the reapers stroll into the galaxy every 50k years and give everyone ice-cream. :wizard:

[justafan]

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Control solves neither problem. It delays Shepard's problem but it is implied the reapers will come back to reap of StarShep's own accord when synthetics rebel. Likewise, it doesn't solve the Catalyst's problem because it simply keeps the status quo of the Reapers doing their reaping.

IWhere it is implied?

What guarrentees that Shepard will think the same way after uploading into the system?

The simple fact that the catalyst is more open to this solution than destroy implies this.  If we view Shepard and the Catalyst as having separate goals, then the Catalyst should be equally negative to destroy and control if he assumes shepard will fly the reapers into the nearest sun, if not more in favor of Destroy as it will kill the potential threat of the geth.  However, he is far more positive to control because we can assume he believes Shepard will continue with his solution after Shepard ascends to Catalysthood and is able to comprehend the data.

Sure this cycle may be delayed, but the catalyst likely believes once the synthetics rebel, Shepard will fall in line with the reapers way of thinking of his own free will.

Nothing implies that he's open to anything. If he was he would stop the reapers right then  and there. If you look around he lets the reapers keep going. 
If you understand that he reallyy is not open to other salutions...Ask yourself this....How dose control and synthesis solve the problems he presents in any way?

Well, my original quote was snipped for length but on the previous page I outlined why the other two options achieve the Catalyst's objective.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Catalyst's level of control is severely limited in general or at least by the crucible.  If we take everything at face value, he says that the crucible has "changed" him, which might limit his ability to tell the repers to stop right there.  Or who knows, maybe he just isn't isn't ready to give in just yet and lets his squids keep killing until Shepard makes his choice.

As for the Catalyst being open.  He makes it quite clear the peace will not last in destroy, and that only you will die in Control.  Synthesis is quite clearly his favorite though.

I'm sorry but you need to show proof of this limit first. That would be a base less assuption.

I was providing an answer to your own speculation.  You would need proof that the catalyst WOULD stop the reapers if he was open to anything.  As is he has a solution to Chaos, the reapers, but there are now 3 more solutions available to Shepard (not the Catalyst) thanks to the Crucible, and the Catalyst shows his preferences, which is what my analysis is based off of.

[dreman9999]

antares_sublight wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

In the leaked script it goes like this:

Shepard: What would happen to me?
Catalyst: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.

Shepard might very well come to be convinced over thousands of years that the original cycle was a good idea.

Well, if that thas present in game, I would agree with you. But...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Added, their is no guarrentee Shepard would even think the sameway after being up loaded with a statement like"You'll die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have.":whistle:

[dreman9999]

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Control solves neither problem. It delays Shepard's problem but it is implied the reapers will come back to reap of StarShep's own accord when synthetics rebel. Likewise, it doesn't solve the Catalyst's problem because it simply keeps the status quo of the Reapers doing their reaping.

IWhere it is implied?

What guarrentees that Shepard will think the same way after uploading into the system?

The simple fact that the catalyst is more open to this solution than destroy implies this.  If we view Shepard and the Catalyst as having separate goals, then the Catalyst should be equally negative to destroy and control if he assumes shepard will fly the reapers into the nearest sun, if not more in favor of Destroy as it will kill the potential threat of the geth.  However, he is far more positive to control because we can assume he believes Shepard will continue with his solution after Shepard ascends to Catalysthood and is able to comprehend the data.

Sure this cycle may be delayed, but the catalyst likely believes once the synthetics rebel, Shepard will fall in line with the reapers way of thinking of his own free will.

Nothing implies that he's open to anything. If he was he would stop the reapers right then  and there. If you look around he lets the reapers keep going. 
If you understand that he reallyy is not open to other salutions...Ask yourself this....How dose control and synthesis solve the problems he presents in any way?

Well, my original quote was snipped for length but on the previous page I outlined why the other two options achieve the Catalyst's objective.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Catalyst's level of control is severely limited in general or at least by the crucible.  If we take everything at face value, he says that the crucible has "changed" him, which might limit his ability to tell the repers to stop right there.  Or who knows, maybe he just isn't isn't ready to give in just yet and lets his squids keep killing until Shepard makes his choice.

As for the Catalyst being open.  He makes it quite clear the peace will not last in destroy, and that only you will die in Control.  Synthesis is quite clearly his favorite though.

I'm sorry but you need to show proof of this limit first. That would be a base less assuption.

I was providing an answer to your own speculation.  You would need proof that the catalyst WOULD stop the reapers if he was open to anything.  As is he has a solution to Chaos, the reapers, but there are now 3 more solutions available to Shepard (not the Catalyst) thanks to the Crucible, and the Catalyst shows his preferences, which is what my analysis is based off of.

It's not a sepculation. He's in control. He would end it in an instant, yet we want me to make a choice with to dictate the fate of the galexy with 3 choices that solve none of the problems he presents.....You don't see something is off?

[Lord Goose]

No, the cycle is about imposing order, not harvesting all life. You have to understand that the perpose of everything the reapers are doing is about order and the motivation is organic destorying themselve by making sysntetics and going to war with them.  The cycle contious as long the problem is not solved.

Cycles are time periods between the harvests.
Reapers are solution to chaos. They wipe out developed species, leaving younger ones untouched, so organic life could continue, without being exterminated by synthetic. Catalyst outright states, what cycles were created for this purpose.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 11 mai 2012 - 07:02 .

[PistolPete7556]

EsterCloat wrote...

I want to stop them by destroying them.

[Lord Goose]

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

[H2Ape]

Lord Goose wrote...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

[Lord Goose]

[quote]

[/quote]
To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

[/quote]

If that is really inevitable, he should have choosen Synthesis. Because, if it is inevitable, synthetics will wipe out organic life in Destroy ending and where wouldn't be Reapers to stop it. If it isn't inevitable, why should he do that?

[The Mercenary55]

wow i cant believe some people, "shajar: i dont want to destroy the reapers, that would be genocide" are you serious!?! the reapers have been massacring civilizations for millions of years and you dont want to destroy them, i cannot understand some people

[antares_sublight]

H2Ape wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

Why would whoever created the Catalyst do it? How many thousands of years is Shepard-Controller going to have to be influenced and persuaded? There's no guarantee he might come to the same conclusion.

[justafan]

dreman9999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

I was providing an answer to your own speculation.  You would need proof that the catalyst WOULD stop the reapers if he was open to anything.  As is he has a solution to Chaos, the reapers, but there are now 3 more solutions available to Shepard (not the Catalyst) thanks to the Crucible, and the Catalyst shows his preferences, which is what my analysis is based off of.

It's not a sepculation. He's in control. He would end it in an instant, yet we want me to make a choice with to dictate the fate of the galexy with 3 choices that solve none of the problems he presents.....You don't see something is off?

Why would he end it in an instant?  There is still the option to blow the reapers to hell and stop his precious cycle.  He has no control over what you pick thanks to the crucible, and thus he tries to influence your decision.  Also there is no evidence that shows to what extent the Catalyst controls the reapers, you would need to show proof of that to make your claim valid.

Also, One of the options fulfills all his goals, Synthesis.  Synthesis is an end to the chaos he has been trying to prevent.  I covered why that fulfills all his goals in my first post.  In short though, Synthesis merges Organics and Synthetics, thus ending the inevitable Organic Genocide that he quite plainly states is his goal.  And, in this case, we know this fulfills the goal of the Reapers because the Reapers leave once synthesis happens.

Control also fulfills his goals in a less satisfactory manner.  The Reapers still exist, and can continue the cycle when Shepard deems it necessary.

Modifié par justafan, 11 mai 2012 - 07:13 .

[Lord Goose]

The Mercenary55 wrote...

wow i cant believe some people, "shajar: i dont want to destroy the reapers, that would be genocide" are you serious!?! the reapers have been massacring civilizations for millions of years and you dont want to destroy them, i cannot understand some people

Personally, I choose Contorl only because my character was very paragonish. He truly believed that synthetics life has the same rights as organic. What something is alive if it has ability to think, feel and change with experience. He also respected Legion's sacrifice and was friend with EDI. So, where was no way he could sacrifice them if he had another option.

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

No, the cycle is about imposing order, not harvesting all life. You have to understand that the perpose of everything the reapers are doing is about order and the motivation is organic destorying themselve by making sysntetics and going to war with them.  The cycle contious as long the problem is not solved.

Cycles are time periods between the harvests.
Reapers are solution to chaos. They wipe out developed species, leaving younger ones untouched, so organic life could continue, without being exterminated by synthetic. Catalyst outright states, what cycles were created for this purpose.

No, The cycle is about imposing order. The time before the reapers come is the time we are allowed to live. As Sovergin said" We exsist because we allow it". They are in control, the only time it began to stip out of there fingers is when the invasion was delayed in ME1. The mass relay are part of the cycle, the citadel is partof the cycle. They are there to heard us. It all about order, putting us were they can control us...And every race never knew about it till it's too late. As long as their motivation exsist and the system is working with reapers in control, the cycle always goes on.

[dreman9999]

antares_sublight wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

Why would whoever created the Catalyst do it? How many thousands of years is Shepard-Controller going to have to be influenced and persuaded? There's no guarantee he might come to the same conclusion.

Again what is the guarentee that Shepard will think the same way.

[Lord Goose]

[quote]

[/quote]
Why would whoever created the Catalyst do it? How many thousands of years is Shepard-Controller going to have to be influenced and persuaded? There's no guarantee he might come to the same conclusion.

[/quote]
As i said. If organics being wiped by synthetics is inevitable, when Synthesis is really the best ending, no matter how repulsive one may find it.
In Destroy ending all organic life would be wiped out.
In Control cycle should continue, or organic life would cease to exist.
Only synthesis truly solves the problem.

Well, me (and my Shepard) believes the whole problem with organic-synthetic war to be a bullcrap.

[MrAtomica]

Correction:

After we have been introduced to the Catalyst, the goal has changed from "Stop the Reapers" to "Stop the Catalyst". The Reapers are billions of organic lives, liquified and shackled to the will of the Catalyst. His existence absolves them of wrongdoing.

The fact that we cannot defy or deal with him in any manner is preposterous.

[Lord Goose]

No, The cycle is about imposing order. The time before the reapers come is the time we are allowed to live. As Sovergin said" We exsist because we allow it". They are in control, the only time it began to stip out of there fingers is when the invasion was delayed in ME1. The mass relay are part of the cycle, the citadel is partof the cycle. They are there to heard us. It all about order, putting us were they can control us...And every race never knew about it till it's too late. As long as their motivation exsist and the system is working with reapers in control, the cycle always goes on.

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=122s

"Without the harvest to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycles, so what never happen"/

Modifié par Lord Goose, 11 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[antares_sublight]

dreman9999 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

Why would whoever created the Catalyst do it? How many thousands of years is Shepard-Controller going to have to be influenced and persuaded? There's no guarantee he might come to the same conclusion.

Again what is the guarentee that Shepard will think the same way.

There's no guarantee either way. Shepard-Controller would have thousands of years to be persuaded through experience or external forces.

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

No, The cycle is about imposing order. The time before the reapers come is the time we are allowed to live. As Sovergin said" We exsist because we allow it". They are in control, the only time it began to stip out of there fingers is when the invasion was delayed in ME1. The mass relay are part of the cycle, the citadel is partof the cycle. They are there to heard us. It all about order, putting us were they can control us...And every race never knew about it till it's too late. As long as their motivation exsist and the system is working with reapers in control, the cycle always goes on.

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=122s

"Without the harvest to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics. We've created the cycles, so what never happen"/

You not understand that is there way of imposing order. That still ties to the relay trap the orginally had. It's all about order.
They lead races on to a point they can havest them. That still is imposing order. IF the system is stil there, the havest will away be able to happen. The thing your saying is"Shepard is in charge, he won't let it happen."
The thing you not getting is this statemeant...."You will DIE , you will control us but you'll lose everything you have"...
What does that mean? Is their a limit to what Shepard loses? What of his memeory and his persona? Wouldn't that mean he's a blank state now?
And that's the problem....You have no guarentee ifShepard will be the same ones he is in the system....he's wiped clean of any previous influence. He has nothing but the system to learn info with....A system that is pro havesting life.
We can'r guarantee the cycle will end because of this.

[dreman9999]

antares_sublight wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Despite the dialogue not being there in the game, Shepard-Controller could very well come to that conclusion after thousands or tens of thousands of years - that the cycle is a rational procedure. What's to stop him from being persuaded somehow to restart the cycle?

Why would he do that, again? 

To stop synthetics from wiping out all organic life.

Why would whoever created the Catalyst do it? How many thousands of years is Shepard-Controller going to have to be influenced and persuaded? There's no guarantee he might come to the same conclusion.

Again what is the guarentee that Shepard will think the same way.

There's no guarantee either way. Shepard-Controller would have thousands of years to be persuaded through experience or external forces.

Do you know that 
Shepard-Controller would not have any past memeory to us to dictate his actions?