323 réponses à ce sujet

[M920CAIN]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Through out the entire game the main objective is to "STOP the Reaper" its this phraze that is used repeatedly.

I've seen a good few people corrupting it into "destroy the reapers" to force their prefered Genocide ending.

One thing is true whatever ending you pick the Reapers are STOPPED.

Get off my lawn!

[Shallyah]

Shepard "The Illusive Man is attempting to Control the Reapers. He thinks that is how we win."
Hackett: "He is wrong. Dead Reapers is how we win."

/thread

Funny to see though how some people try to sell themselves from the moral high ground for choosing control. Apparently becoming a pretentious god and enslaving a race for eternity is totally fine from a moral point of view. Totally what a Paragon would do.

Modifié par Shallyah, 11 mai 2012 - 11:08 .

[Erield]

H2Ape wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How does control and synthesis stop the reaper?

I don't think control stops them. The control ending could still lead to technological singularity and Shepard deciding to bring back the Reapers so that organic life may continue. Shepard could also just let synthetics wipe out organics, making him/her a total jerk. You lose either way.

Destroy makes you lose because the dead Reapers indoctrinate organics and force them to rebuild the Reapers, or technological singularity happens and organic life is wiped from the face of the galaxy.

Synthesis does stop the Reapers because there's no point in them coming
back. Technological singularity won't happen and life will continue
forever.

dreman9999 is an avid IT proponent.  He'll probably come back saying that if you chose Control or Synthesis then you got Indoctrinated, and so the Reapers are still free

I agree with you on the points of the tech singularity happening with Control/Destroy.  However, it woul happen with Synthesis, too.  There is no reason to believe that a Synthoman would have the processing capabilities of the Geth or an EDI.  What does that mean?  Oh.  Right.  They'd create something that did have that kind of raw, pure processing power.  Because they've done it before.  Because the Geth and EDI exist...

Furthermore, the Star Brat is pretty specific on the whole Created vs. Creators being the primary danger.  That's actually more thematically relevant to the game, too, since we see it happening with the Krogan as well.  Synthesis does nothing to solve for the Created vs. Creators which the Star Brat specifically brings attention to early in his speech.  "The Created will always rebel against the Creators."  

So, none of the Solutions fix the 'problem' that was the cause for the Cycle.

[H2Ape]

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

So the dead Reapers can still somehow control things and give them orders? And no the one in number 2 doesn't count it was just mostly dead not completely. Besides I think the galaxy would notice... Eventually.

I'm just saying that there's more proof that they can than there is that they can't. And I don't think the galaxy would notice since there would be so many dead Reapers lying around. I'm pretty sure that each cluster is occupied by Reapers when you head back to Earth. And what about the Leviathan of Dis?

I'd say Dis one is just damaged as well and not actually dead like the one in 2 is dead. The materials required to fix one would be pretty extreme. Eventually someone will notice something. I'm just saying when something is dead it can't do anything. We have plenty of proof of that to. But using that argument. We currently have no proof of aliens there for they can't possibly exist despite there being a near infinate amount of stars and planets orbiting them.

I don't think the materials required to fix the Reapers would be that extreme, they spark red and fall over, not explode. The evidence from the games show that Reaper dead is different from organic dead since they can still push their agenda from beyond the grave.

The evidence we have is that they can push their agenda from while there near the grave not actually dead. They aren't magic. Just advanced. "Listen to yourself you're indoctrinated."
Well the ones moving in space are gonna keep moving till they hit something so they probs wont survive that to well. I can just see how much damage one of those will take without it's masseffect fields on to when it falls to Earth even the ones already on the ground would take significan't damage. Plus if I was one of the guys on the ground I would of shot the hell out of them some more.

I'm sure most of the Reapers are on planets, wiping out the inhabitants. I'm not sure that some marine's Avenger X (even with the peircing mod V) would be able to deal significant damage to a dead Reaper. I feel like you and I may have to agree to disagree on what level of dead Reaper indoctrination operates on.

[Peranor]

I only ever had one goal. And that was the total and utter annihilation and extinction of the Reapers.

[Shallyah]

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis does stop the Reapers because there's no point in them coming back. Technological singularity won't happen and life will continue forever.

Moral issues aside, synthesis just means that the part synthetic of people wil eventually take over the organic, and everyone will become full machines sooner than later. It's a pattern that repeats itself, and anyone who has From Ashes DLC and followed the conversations with Javik would know it firsthand.

Modifié par Shallyah, 11 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[wright1978]

In destroy reapers are permanently stopped.
In control they are only stopped as long as Shep can maintain control or if his control extends to getting them to fly into a sun and commit suicide.
In Synthesis they are only stopped as long as newly synthesised beings remain fully lobotomised and incapable of the higher though processes required to create new AI's.

[ZIPO396]

H2Ape wrote...

I'm sure most of the Reapers are on planets, wiping out the inhabitants. I'm not sure that some marine's Avenger X (even with the peircing mod V) would be able to deal significant damage to a dead Reaper. I feel like you and I may have to agree to disagree on what level of dead Reaper indoctrination operates on.

That's why we had tanks and now with no shields they're pretty vulnerable to that. But yes we'll have to disagree on what dead is. My view on dead is dead yours is paralysed.

Modifié par ZIPO396, 11 mai 2012 - 11:16 .

[Alros Faevar]

So if dead Reapers can still indoctrinate people, shouldn't everyone who stays on the Citadel for some time after the events of ME1 become indoctrinated?

[Psychlonus]

Erield wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

Erield wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

Genocide? The word doesn't apply. The word 'genocide' , which implies injustice, only applies when you are destroying a group that has individuals within it that want to co-exist with you.

You are so ****ing wrong that it is actually making my brain vomit.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide said...

gen-o-cide (jen-uh-sahyd)
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

There is no multiple choice to pick from.  There is nothing about injustice.  There is nothing about a group that wants to co-exist with you.  The tutsis and hutus in Africa did not want to coexist.  What they have done to each other is not an 'injustice;' it's ****ing genocide.

Picking Destroy is genocide--you are killing the Reapers, you are killing the Geth, and you are killing EDI.  There is an argument to be made that EDI counts as a species in and of herself, even if it's just a species of one. 

Outside of the reapers, there's no such thing as a group that contains no individuals that want to co-exist.

Wishing co-existence is not a requirement for genocide.  Your argument makes no sense.  I'm not saying that I'm opposed to killing all Reapers--just know that it is genocide.  Don't try and call it anything but that.  I mean, Star Brat uses his "Solution" and "Ascension," but it's still genocide.  And he's a dick for trying to make it sound like it's not whole-sale slaughter, like it's somehow better or different.

If you want to call compelled self-defense aganist 100% of a group 'genocide'  in order to be dictionary correct, then be my guest.

[Shallyah]

Also, I'll believe the Geth and EDI are destroyed when I see it.

EDI pretty sure doesn't die. That the Geth die is questionable. And insignificant. Just a badly played stunt from Mac Walters to try to get someone to pick Control or Synthesis. Wouldn't pick anything diferent than Destroy even if it was humanity that has to be sacrificed. I'd have to be very drunk or have an IQ below 70 to fail to see the bigger picture.

Trillions upon trillions of lives per cycle, thousands upon thousands of races - all spared, without risk or possibility for the Reapers to return again. And all at the cost of one single race. What is there to consider?

Modifié par Shallyah, 11 mai 2012 - 11:24 .

[H2Ape]

Alros Faevar wrote...

So if dead Reapers can still indoctrinate people, shouldn't everyone who stays on the Citadel for some time after the events of ME1 become indoctrinated?

I wouldn't believe so, Sovereign blows up at the end of ME1. The Reapers just fall over at the end of ME3.

[The Night Mammoth]

ZIPO396 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...
I'd say Dis one is just damaged as well and not actually dead like the one in 2 is dead. The materials required to fix one would be pretty extreme. Eventually someone will notice something. I'm just saying when something is dead it can't do anything. We have plenty of proof of that to. But using that argument. We currently have no proof of aliens there for they can't possibly exist despite there being a near infinate amount of stars and planets orbiting them.

Then I guess it depends on whether you define the Reaper's as dead or not in those two situations. 

They clearly were, to me, so indoctrination is a risk. 

I'd say an idividual who is paralysed and can only blink is alive. Which is basically the equivelent. Except they're not blinking but using low frequency suggestions to indoctrinate people.

This is a slippery slope, so I'll just say that if that person still has sapience, emotion, the capacity to make decisions and think autominously, then I'd consider them alive by human standards. Maybe their only way of communication is blinking, but they're still alive and comfortable. 

The Reaper is dead. Its only function is a Mass Effect core that simply keeps its position, and indoctrination, which we're told is simply a part of them, as integral to their existance as eating is to us.

If you need more then just take a look at Saren. The more you're taken under the Reaper's control the less capable you are. If so, then why doesn't Sovereign just turn it off since Saren is already a willing servant? 

[ZIPO396]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

This is a slippery slope, so I'll just say that if that person still has sapience, emotion, the capacity to make decisions and think autominously, then I'd consider them alive by human standards. Maybe their only way of communication is blinking, but they're still alive and comfortable. 

The Reaper is dead. Its only function is a Mass Effect core that simply keeps its position, and indoctrination, which we're told is simply a part of them, as integral to their existance as eating is to us.

If you need more then just take a look at Saren. The more you're taken under the Reaper's control the less capable you are. If so, then why doesn't Sovereign just turn it off since Saren is already a willing servant? 

Aye it is. But I found it an avid comparison.

A Reaper does control its indoctrination thou. It can take it's time to leave you capable like with Saren or go all out and leave you like those gibbering idiots in the cages at Virmire. So once completely shut off like implied in destroy it would completely stop it. Otherwise Control and Synthesis are even worse than I thought as the Reapers will eventually indoctrinate everyone anyway without them able to have a chance at fighting it.

[H2Ape]

Erield wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How does control and synthesis stop the reaper?

I don't think control stops them. The control ending could still lead to technological singularity and Shepard deciding to bring back the Reapers so that organic life may continue. Shepard could also just let synthetics wipe out organics, making him/her a total jerk. You lose either way.

Destroy makes you lose because the dead Reapers indoctrinate organics and force them to rebuild the Reapers, or technological singularity happens and organic life is wiped from the face of the galaxy.

Synthesis does stop the Reapers because there's no point in them coming
back. Technological singularity won't happen and life will continue
forever.

dreman9999 is an avid IT proponent.  He'll probably come back saying that if you chose Control or Synthesis then you got Indoctrinated, and so the Reapers are still free

I agree with you on the points of the tech singularity happening with Control/Destroy.  However, it woul happen with Synthesis, too.  There is no reason to believe that a Synthoman would have the processing capabilities of the Geth or an EDI.  What does that mean?  Oh.  Right.  They'd create something that did have that kind of raw, pure processing power.  Because they've done it before.  Because the Geth and EDI exist...

Furthermore, the Star Brat is pretty specific on the whole Created vs. Creators being the primary danger.  That's actually more thematically relevant to the game, too, since we see it happening with the Krogan as well.  Synthesis does nothing to solve for the Created vs. Creators which the Star Brat specifically brings attention to early in his speech.  "The Created will always rebel against the Creators."  

So, none of the Solutions fix the 'problem' that was the cause for the Cycle.

You bring up an interesting point. I assumed that anything created by Synthomen would have a more harmonious relationship because whatever they create wouldn't get to the point that they would out evolve their creators and think of them as so useless that they need to be destroyed.

[H2Ape]

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

I'm sure most of the Reapers are on planets, wiping out the inhabitants. I'm not sure that some marine's Avenger X (even with the peircing mod V) would be able to deal significant damage to a dead Reaper. I feel like you and I may have to agree to disagree on what level of dead Reaper indoctrination operates on.

That's why we had tanks and now with no shields they're pretty vulnerable to that. But yes we'll have to disagree on what dead is. My view on dead is dead yours is paralysed.

Not paralyzed, dead, but still indoctrinating.

[ZIPO396]

H2Ape wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

I'm sure most of the Reapers are on planets, wiping out the inhabitants. I'm not sure that some marine's Avenger X (even with the peircing mod V) would be able to deal significant damage to a dead Reaper. I feel like you and I may have to agree to disagree on what level of dead Reaper indoctrination operates on.

That's why we had tanks and now with no shields they're pretty vulnerable to that. But yes we'll have to disagree on what dead is. My view on dead is dead yours is paralysed.

Not paralyzed, dead, but still indoctrinating.

Aye different views.

[MattFini]

H2Ape wrote...

Destroy Synthesis and Control may not truly stop the Reapers.

There we go. 

[Pride Demon]

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

[H2Ape]

MattFini wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

Destroy Synthesis and Control may not truly stop the Reapers.

There we go. 

Nice try?

[Laughing_Man]

The fact that some people feel that it's justified to call genocide to destroying in self-defense a "race" of giant killing machines, a "race" that everything about it - from the method of it's creation
to the twisted logic that lead to it - is abomination in every sense of the word,
gives a clear view of the danger in misguided mercy, and other similar self destructive habits that are sadly prevalent today.
Morals are what sets us apart from beasts, but when they become a self-destructive-obssesion,
they are no more logical or moral than any other suicidal tendency.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 11 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[dreman9999]

Erield wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How does control and synthesis stop the reaper?

I don't think control stops them. The control ending could still lead to technological singularity and Shepard deciding to bring back the Reapers so that organic life may continue. Shepard could also just let synthetics wipe out organics, making him/her a total jerk. You lose either way.

Destroy makes you lose because the dead Reapers indoctrinate organics and force them to rebuild the Reapers, or technological singularity happens and organic life is wiped from the face of the galaxy.

Synthesis does stop the Reapers because there's no point in them coming
back. Technological singularity won't happen and life will continue
forever.

dreman9999 is an avid IT proponent.  He'll probably come back saying that if you chose Control or Synthesis then you got Indoctrinated, and so the Reapers are still free

I agree with you on the points of the tech singularity happening with Control/Destroy.  However, it woul happen with Synthesis, too.  There is no reason to believe that a Synthoman would have the processing capabilities of the Geth or an EDI.  What does that mean?  Oh.  Right.  They'd create something that did have that kind of raw, pure processing power.  Because they've done it before.  Because the Geth and EDI exist...

Furthermore, the Star Brat is pretty specific on the whole Created vs. Creators being the primary danger.  That's actually more thematically relevant to the game, too, since we see it happening with the Krogan as well.  Synthesis does nothing to solve for the Created vs. Creators which the Star Brat specifically brings attention to early in his speech.  "The Created will always rebel against the Creators."  

So, none of the Solutions fix the 'problem' that was the cause for the Cycle.

1.I don't have to say anything. 
H2Ape already ponited out that is solves nothing in those  choices...Control and Syntheisis is not pro-organic nor does it help the Geth or EDI. That's my point. I don't have to say anything about IT.The ending as it is speak for them sealves.
2. And about 
H2Ape  destroy results....No , that won't happen. If they all have no mind and no main controler, there would be no one to give order to anyone via indoctrination.... No one will build reaper because there is no one to tell them to build reapers...

REd this from ME:retribution...
“We have to replicate the procedures of the Collectors as closely as possible,” the Illusive Manexplained. “I’m afraid this is going to be … unpleasant.”He felt thumbs on his eyelids, lifting them open. With Grayson unable to control his muscles, theystayed that way, staring up into the excruciating brightness of the operating lamp. The silhouette of thefemale scientist momentarily blocked it out as she leaned over him to remove the strap from his chin. Sheopened his jaw and forced a long, flexible tube deep down his throat before stepping away, leaving himto be blinded by the light again.“The Collectors implanted their victims with cybernetic Reaper technology. This allows the Reapers tocommunicate with and eventually dominate the organic host, even from across the galaxy.”The tube in Grayson’s throat began to pulse as some type of viscous fluid was siphoned down into hisstomach..From Me:Retribution...
“Their technology is incredible,” the Illusive Man continued. “Are you familiar with quantumentanglement? No, probably not. It’s a complex field of study.“Basically, there are particles in the universe that share certain complementary properties. If one has apositive charge, the other has a negative charge. Reverse the charge on one particle, and the other alsoreverses instantly, even if the particles are thousands of light-years apart.
(Page 45). 
“Humanity explored the phenomenon throughout the twenty-first century, but the cost of identifyingand creating the particles was astronomical. In the end, the field was abandoned as impractical.“But the Reaper technology we recovered from the Collectors is far more advanced. They’vecombined entangled particles with self-replicating nanotechnology, allowing them to infect, transform, anddominate organic hosts even while they’re trapped in dark space.”
(Page 46).  

[dreman9999]

TheRedVipress wrote...

The fact that some people feel that it's justified to call genocide to destroying in self-defense a "race" of giant killing machines, a "race" that everything about it - from the method of it's creation
to the twisted logic that lead to it - is abomination in every sense of the word,
gives a clear view of the danger in misguided mercy, and other similar self destructive habits that are sadly prevalent today.
Morals are what sets us apart from beasts, but when they become a self-destructive-obssesion,
they are no more logical or moral than any other suicidal tendency.

AKA..the reaper were right. We do destory ourselves.