323 réponses à ce sujet

[GiarcYekrub]

essarr71 wrote...

^

those are YOUR values. To an Alien species, killing lesser beings might be just as evil as making toast in the morning. Good & Evil are subjective. Reapers are evil from out perspective. They, however, think they're good guys.

Exactly

[dreman9999]

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......
http://www.youtube.c...eature=related 
Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

In destroy reapers are permanently stopped.
In control they are only stopped as long as Shep can maintain control or if his control extends to getting them to fly into a sun and commit suicide.
In Synthesis they are only stopped as long as newly synthesised beings remain fully lobotomised and incapable of the higher though processes required to create new AI's.

Added, control does not guarantee Shepard will think the same way after being upload in the system. The star child said"Everythingyou are will die, but you will control us"...

[Anthadlas]

Maybe for you, My shepard wanted to murder them

[Pride Demon]

TheRedVipress wrote...

The fact that some people feel that it's justified to call genocide to destroying in self-defense a "race" of giant killing machines, a "race" that everything about it - from the method of it's creation
to the twisted logic that lead to it - is abomination in every sense of the word,
gives a clear view of the danger in misguided mercy, and other similar self destructive habits that are sadly prevalent today.
Morals are what sets us apart from beasts, but when they become a self-destructive-obssesion,
they are no more logical or moral than any other suicidal tendency.

I quite agree, people should be more bothered by genociding the geth than the reapers...
Unless, of course, you already destroyed them, in which case destroy is a clearer win (other than the EDI thing, but apparently she is alive either way, so...).

[dreman9999]

Pride Demon wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

The fact that some people feel that it's justified to call genocide to destroying in self-defense a "race" of giant killing machines, a "race" that everything about it - from the method of it's creation
to the twisted logic that lead to it - is abomination in every sense of the word,
gives a clear view of the danger in misguided mercy, and other similar self destructive habits that are sadly prevalent today.
Morals are what sets us apart from beasts, but when they become a self-destructive-obssesion,
they are no more logical or moral than any other suicidal tendency.

I quite agree, people should be more bothered by genociding the geth than the reapers...
Unless, of course, you already destroyed them, in which case destroy is a clearer win (other than the EDI thing, but apparently she is alive either way, so...).

But does that me we sould let ourselves be lobtomized with the Geth in Synthises? Or keep the system of the cycle going when we don't even know we  will  stop the cycle?

Garrus had a saying for choices like Destroy....It's call ruthless calculus...It's war we can't save everyone and the other options doom everyone but the reapers.

[Pride Demon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......
http://www.youtube.c...eature=related 
Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

Excuse me, but this is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make... :/
What logic connection there is between what you are saying and what I was saying?

I merely pointed out that other than the word of the Catalyst itself there is no other indication of what destroy will do, same with the other endings... That is regardless of what the Catalyst is, or if the ending is true or not...

But if you are implying the Catalyst is admitting to being a reaper than it's even worse: you are trusting that a reaper will tell you how to destroy its entire race and be truthful about it...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 11 mai 2012 - 12:44 .

[The Night Mammoth]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

^

those are YOUR values. To an Alien species, killing lesser beings might be just as evil as making toast in the morning. Good & Evil are subjective. Reapers are evil from out perspective. They, however, think they're good guys.

Exactly

Eh, so? Evil from our perspective, which is the only perspective. Whether they think they're good guys is pretty much irrelevant. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 mai 2012 - 12:44 .

[Zix13]

How do you stop something that kills everything in its way? You kill it. There is no middle ground. 

Modifié par Zix13, 11 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[dreman9999]

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......
http://www.youtube.c...eature=related 
Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

Excuse me, but this is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make... :/
What logic connection there is between what you are saying and what I was saying?

I merely pointed out that othern then the word of the Catalyst itself there is no other indication of what destroy will do, same with the other endings... That is regardless of what the Catalyst is, or if the ending is true or not...

But if you are implying the Catalyst is admitting to being a reaper than it's even worse: you are trusting that a reaper will tell you how to destroy its entire race and be truthful about it...

Le's flip this a bit. 
 Who is the one in control in this scene? Your missing the fact that the cataylist is not really offering the destroy option here, just recomferming that Shepard wants to destory the reapers. Note that he only offer control and Synthesis. He is just trying to impose the intetion that he is in control when he is not.
Added, the is reason why he is helping us and how suggestive he is with the other choices. 
Then there's the fact that there is no proof anything is real.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

^

those are YOUR values. To an Alien species, killing lesser beings might be just as evil as making toast in the morning. Good & Evil are subjective. Reapers are evil from out perspective. They, however, think they're good guys.

Exactly

Eh, so? Evil from our perspective, which is the only perspective. Whether they think they're good guys is pretty much irrelevant. 

Think of it this way. There are country were it's seen as morally good to drag homosexual into the street an stone them to death in this world. Morality can be something that can be easilly twisted over ride basic logic or empathy.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 mai 2012 - 12:50 .

[TX-Toast]

You were supposed to destroy the Reapers not join them.

[SirCroft]

"The main objective is to STOP the Reapers not CONTROL them"
"The main objective is to STOP the Reapers not SYNTHESISE all organic life"

...etc.

[EnvyTB075]

Bunch of crazies want to wipe out you and everything you love, and you don't want to destroy them? You want to make friends with them?

Yeah, no thanks.

[Pride Demon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......
http://www.youtube.c...eature=related 
Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

Excuse me, but this is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make... :/
What logic connection there is between what you are saying and what I was saying?

I merely pointed out that othern then the word of the Catalyst itself there is no other indication of what destroy will do, same with the other endings... That is regardless of what the Catalyst is, or if the ending is true or not...

But if you are implying the Catalyst is admitting to being a reaper than it's even worse: you are trusting that a reaper will tell you how to destroy its entire race and be truthful about it...

Le's flip this a bit. 
 Who is the one in control in this scene? Your missing the fact that the cataylist is not really offering the destroy option here, just recomferming that Shepard wants to destory the reapers. Note that he only offer control and Synthesis. He is just trying to impose the intetion that he is in control when he is not.
Added, the is reason why he is helping us and how suggestive he is with the other choices. 
Then there's the fact that there is no proof anything is real.

Did Shepard knew how to destroy the reapers before the Catalyst told/showed him s/he had to shoot the tube? No.
Did Shepard knew how to control the reapers before the Catalyst told/showed him s/he had to operate that mechanism? No.
Did Shepard knew how to execute synthesis before the Catalyst told him s/he had to jump in the beam? No.

And if it were smart then he'll probably tell you that to destroy them you have to do something that ends up not destroying them (especially true if it itself is a reaper trying to trick you), why not trick you by saying that to destroy the reapers you have to, I don't know, jump in the green beam maybe? How do you know detonating that tube will destroy the reapers rather than just blowing up the Crucible? Because if the Catalyst is a reaper that's the most reasonable course of action, trycking you into destroying the only thing that can stop them...

You are innately trusting the fact that it telling/showing you destroying the tube triggers the reaper destruction is true, because Shep has absolutely no idea on how to properly operate the Crucible to achieve any ending until the Catalyst explains it...

And again, regarding that last line on nothing being real, I assume you are referring to IT...
If that's the case, what has IT being true or not have anything to do with my point, why are you deliberately trying to turn our argument towards an IT discussion? What I said is verified REGARDLESS of IT, and indeed I never shown any intention of discussing IT in any shape or form in any of my posts, so why do you press the issue when it's not needed and has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever?

[balance5050]

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

IT WAS SAID YOU WERE DESTROY THE REAPERS, NOT JOIN THEM!

BRING BALANCE TO THE GALAXY, NOT LEAVE IT IN DARKNESS!

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

^

those are YOUR values. To an Alien species, killing lesser beings might be just as evil as making toast in the morning. Good & Evil are subjective. Reapers are evil from out perspective. They, however, think they're good guys.

Exactly

Eh, so? Evil from our perspective, which is the only perspective. Whether they think they're good guys is pretty much irrelevant. 

Think of it this way. There are country were it's seen as morally good to drag homosexual into the street an stone them to death in this world. Morality can be something that can be easilly twisted over ride basic logic or empathy.

I understand the point, but in that situation there are clearly two different view-points, hundreds of variables, emotions and other abstract concepts to take into account. 

The Reapers just kill people. Everything about them is malicious. Even when dead (or pretty much dead if you see it that way) they still mess with people's minds. We don't have their perspecitve. Nothing about them seems sympathetic, there's no flip-side like there might be for your example. 

All that matters is that they want to kill everyone, without mercy. They take no pity on anyone, they show no remorse. They are evil, and they must be stopped by being destroyed. 

[dreman9999]

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A: Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......
http://www.youtube.c...eature=related 
Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

Excuse me, but this is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make... :/
What logic connection there is between what you are saying and what I was saying?

I merely pointed out that othern then the word of the Catalyst itself there is no other indication of what destroy will do, same with the other endings... That is regardless of what the Catalyst is, or if the ending is true or not...

But if you are implying the Catalyst is admitting to being a reaper than it's even worse: you are trusting that a reaper will tell you how to destroy its entire race and be truthful about it...

Le's flip this a bit. 
 Who is the one in control in this scene? Your missing the fact that the cataylist is not really offering the destroy option here, just recomferming that Shepard wants to destory the reapers. Note that he only offer control and Synthesis. He is just trying to impose the intetion that he is in control when he is not.
Added, the is reason why he is helping us and how suggestive he is with the other choices. 
Then there's the fact that there is no proof anything is real.

Did Shepard knew how to destroy the reapers before the Catalyst told/showed him s/he had to shoot the tube? No.
Did Shepard knew how to control the reapers before the Catalyst told/showed him s/he had to operate that mechanism? No.
Did Shepard knew how to execute synthesis before the Catalyst told him s/he had to jump in the beam? No.

And if it were smart then he'll probably tell you that to destroy them you have to do something that ends up not destroying them (especially true if it itself is a reaper trying to trick you), why not trick you by saying that to destroy the reapers you have to, I don't know, jump in the green beam maybe? How do you know detonating that tube will destroy the reapers rather than just blowing up the Crucible? Because if the Catalyst is a reaper that's the most reasonable course of action, trycking you into destroying the only thing that can stop them...

You are innately trusting the fact that it telling/showing you destroying the tube triggers the reaper destruction is true, because Shep has absolutely no idea on how to properly operate the Crucible to achieve any ending until the Catalyst explains it...

And again, regarding that last line on nothing being real, I assume you are referring to IT...
If that's the case, what has IT being true or not have anything to do with my point, why are you deliberately trying to turn our argument towards an IT discussion? What I said is verified REGARDLESS of IT, and indeed I never shown any intention of discussing IT in any shape or form in any of my posts, so why do you press the issue when it's not needed and has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever?

Like I said...We don't even know if it's real.

Also, I did say he only offered control and synthesis.

[Slayer299]

Yes OP and Destroying them *is* stopping them, the loss of the Geth is regrettable, but necessary.

[Jadebaby]

Personally, I believe none of the endings stopped the reapers because all the destroy ending achieved was to break my Shepard's Indoctrination.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 11 mai 2012 - 01:32 .

[Majin Paul]

I chose destroy myself because it's the best way to ensure there isn't another cycle.
The fact that control was what the illusive man wanted and the previous 5 minutes argument put me off control and the fact that the reapers wouldn't actually be stopped in synthesis put me off that option.
So I see destroy as the best option to actually stop the reapers, the only hard thing about that option is the Geth relationship, but seeing as my Shepard survives (a small part of why I chose destroy), I'm choosing the believe that the Geth may have as well.

[Panthro90]

I sure this has been said before, but I'll throw it in here anyway...

It wasn't to control or "meld with” them either.

Destroying them does "stop" them. Permanently.

[Ieldra]

Shajar wrote...
I dont want to destroy them, that would be genocide. But Shepard dies in control ending so i feel forced to do destroy ending

No he doesn't. He continues to exist as some kind of AI god, replacing the Catalyst.

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Shajar wrote...
I dont want to destroy them, that would be genocide. But Shepard dies in control ending so i feel forced to do destroy ending

No he doesn't. He continues to exist as some kind of AI god, replacing the Catalyst.

But what does "you will die, you can control us but loss everything you have" mean?