323 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Nimrodell wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

H2Ape wrote...

Destroy and Control may not truly stop the Reapers.

So the Reapers somehow rebuild themselves if they're destroyed?

The problem is - people tend to say that Catalyst is lying when it comes to 'control' or 'synthesis', but they never question if Catalyst is telling the truth in 'destroy' and if really all reapers are destroyed then - and the claim for Catalyst lying is based on exactly 'destroy' option because for those who play multiplayer or apps, there's that short scene of Shepard breathing... but they never question if Catalyst was lying then on Reapers truly being destroyed. And to be honest, it's hilarious, because majority on BSN is actually using arguments as they deem fit, at their convenience. I mean, if Catalyst is capable of lying and it is what it's doing when telling you about control or synthesis, why wouldn't be it lying about destroying the reapers as well? Who's to say that there are no other reapers left behind, maybe hidden like Sovereign was... after all, Shepard does survive in that special non-single player ending. Ah, yes, but I forgot, silly me, Shepard was indoctrinated because textures or similar sounds prove that (even though thus far ME series were never about noticing clues in trees or similar textures, or sounds that might remind us on something else) and rachni queen speaks as humans do, not using special figure of speech (oh my, those Gree droids in SWTOR are indoctrinated too, they too use synesthesia, just like rachni queen) - so the only correct ending is 'destroy', in that one Catalyst is not lying or it's offering that option because it likes to play games.

As people keep saying that Shepard's goal was destroying instead of stopping the reapers in previous games (thanks to that truly silly video), they also forget that Shepard was actually open to new concepts that were unimaginable, let's say, in whole ME1 and good chunk of ME2 (Legion and ME3 holorecord in Geth consensus or actually accepting to work with Cerberus) - it's all about - I'll remember stuff when it's conveniet and I'll forget them when it's not.

But Shepard is not open mind to unnessiary mass lobotamy orkeeping the cycle going which is what synthesis and control is.

[CELL55]

You don't even know if you will even be able to CONTROL the Reapers. You can't really trust what their leader says, can you? And even if you can, how total is your CONTROL? How long will it last?

You're told that SYNTHESIS will remove the reason for the Reapers' reason for being around. Can you trust that assessment? Since when have the Reapers ever been reasonable? And will things stay SYNTHESIZED? Will the survivor's children be SYNTHESIZED? Will their children? with the Reapers completely unscathed in this scenario, it's hard to assume.

With DESTROY, it's pretty simple. This is the only option that 100% stops the Reapers. The other options keep the Reapers alive in some capacity, and as long as the supremely powerful and intelligent machines continue to exist, they are a threat. And if the Catalyst is lying, and it doesn't DESTROY the Reapers, then what? Then you are still alive. You can pick a different choice or try to find another way to stop the Reapers.

CONTROL and SYNTHESIS are not so much about stopping the Reapers as they are about delaying them. But perhaps if they had wrote some endings that made any kind of gorram sense we wouldn't have all of this confusion.

[lordofdogtown19]

Ieldra2 wrote...

All endings end the Reaper threat. We are told this explicitly. And the OP is right.

You can play the conversations with TIM perfectly talking like you don't want to destroy the Reapers but TIM just assumes that you do, or that you only want to destroy them because you see no alternative.

We're told this by a Reaper. I don't trust the thing that has caused the death of trillions of lives every 50,000 years. I don't see why you do. 

I'll quote Shepard in the end convo with TIM "If we destory the Reapers, this ends today."

[snfonseka]

I want to "destroy" them.

[Talogrungi]

The objective isn't about stopping the Reapers. It's about stopping the philosophy of the Reapers; i.e. the cessation of the evolutionary process.

Aside from Synthesis being logically ludicrous; it's surrendering to the Reapers philosophy. Control is too ill-defined; Control the Reapers to do what? .. stop the cycle? .. kill themselves? .. for all we know, Control = Indoctrination. Everyone who has tried to do it has been controlled by the Reapers in return.

Destroying the Reapers is the best (only?) way to eliminate their philosophy and ensure that the races of the galaxy have the freedom to realise their true potentials and continue to evolve.

[Walsh1980]

You trust the thing that causes the death of trillions every 50, 000 years because It is a cold logical machine mind, more so than the Reapers from what very little we're given. If it were lying, and it wanted you to pick green or blue, why would it even give you the option of destroying?

Shep: Ok, so control and synthesis, but what's that over ther?
Catalyst: Uh, never mind that, so hey, whatcha gonna picK?
Shep: I don't know, that red pipe over there looks interesting, maybe I'll go have a look.
Catalyst: No don't go over there, you could slip and fall!

If he is lying, the ending is many many times worse than it is already.

[lordofdogtown19]

Walsh1980 wrote...

You trust the thing that causes the death of trillions every 50, 000 years because It is a cold logical machine mind, more so than the Reapers from what very little we're given. If it were lying, and it wanted you to pick green or blue, why would it even give you the option of destroying?

Shep: Ok, so control and synthesis, but what's that over ther?
Catalyst: Uh, never mind that, so hey, whatcha gonna picK?
Shep: I don't know, that red pipe over there looks interesting, maybe I'll go have a look.
Catalyst: No don't go over there, you could slip and fall!

If he is lying, the ending is many many times worse than it is already.

He is lying. Shepard doesn't die after picking destroy after he said he would. Becides the Catalyst is obviously trying to make Shepard not pick Destroy. He makes it seem like Destroy is the worst possible opition even though you've been arguing with TIM the whole game that destroying them is the only way.

And even though he's a machine, he's still just looking our for himself and the Reapers

Modifié par lordofdogtown19, 11 mai 2012 - 02:41 .

[GiarcYekrub]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Reapers just kill people. Everything about them is malicious. Even when dead (or pretty much dead if you see it that way) they still mess with people's minds. We don't have their perspecitve. Nothing about them seems sympathetic, there's no flip-side like there might be for your example. 

All that matters is that they want to kill everyone, without mercy. They take no pity on anyone, they show no remorse. They are evil, and they must be stopped by being destroyed. 

No, they don't, they want to preserve it. Collectors,Keepers both preserved species, Human Reaper was another act of preservation. Lesser species are left in peace able to evolve free from interference from other organics.

[lordofdogtown19]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Reapers just kill people. Everything about them is malicious. Even when dead (or pretty much dead if you see it that way) they still mess with people's minds. We don't have their perspecitve. Nothing about them seems sympathetic, there's no flip-side like there might be for your example. 

All that matters is that they want to kill everyone, without mercy. They take no pity on anyone, they show no remorse. They are evil, and they must be stopped by being destroyed. 

No, they don't, they want to preserve it. Collectors,Keepers both preserved species, Human Reaper was another act of preservation. Lesser species are left in peace able to evolve free from interference from other organics.

 

[Talogrungi]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

No, they don't, they want to preserve it. Collectors,Keepers both preserved species, Human Reaper was another act of preservation. Lesser species are left in peace able to evolve free from interference from other organics.

Being melted down to the consistency of toothpaste and used to fuel Reaper procreation?

If that's "preservation" then I just "preserved" a chicken curry.

[GiarcYekrub]

Zardoc wrote...

Synthesis and Control aren't guaranteed to stop the Reapers. Destroy is. Deal with it.

No, it isn't, Your trusting the catalyst to be telling the truth, Nothing is stopping them from being rebuilt

[Darth Asriel]

The reapers are an enemy that show no mercy. They will not broker terms of surrender. They have wiped out sextillions of beings. Then turned them into abominations. Destroying them is A)justice, B)Self defense, C)Vengeance and D)Showing them the mercy they never showed anyone else.

Anyone who feels sorry for them is a grade A moron. We did not attack them. In ME2 Mordin explained all of this. "No glands. replaced by tech. No digestive system. Replaced by tech. No SOUL. Replaced by tech. The Reapers have to die. Control is not an option. Everyone who ever tried failed, why should Shep believe he is different. (Did he read the script) Bottom line if you can kill Cthulhu you better do it. Don't give him the opportunity to come back for you.

[Walsh1980]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

He is lying. Shepard doesn't die after picking destroy after he said he would. Becides the Catalyst is obviously trying to make Shepard not pick Destroy. He makes it seem like Destroy is the worst possible opition even though you've been arguing with TIM the whole game that destroying them is the only way.

And even though he's a machine, he's still just looking our for himself and the Reapers

This is another misconception that is thrown around a lot.  He -never- says you are going to die if you pick destroy, he say's "Even you are partially synthetic".  He is saying it is POSSIBLE that you are also going to die, which if you don't play enough Multi, you DO.  However, a Shepard with a high enough EMS is too TOUGH to die, like the Ramones.

[CELL55]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Synthesis and Control aren't guaranteed to stop the Reapers. Destroy is. Deal with it.

No, it isn't, Your trusting the catalyst to be telling the truth, Nothing is stopping them from being rebuilt

REBUILT?! How in the hell can they be rebuilt if ALL of the Reapers have been destroyed? NOTHING is around to rebuild them.

[The Night Mammoth]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Reapers just kill people. Everything about them is malicious. Even when dead (or pretty much dead if you see it that way) they still mess with people's minds. We don't have their perspecitve. Nothing about them seems sympathetic, there's no flip-side like there might be for your example. 

All that matters is that they want to kill everyone, without mercy. They take no pity on anyone, they show no remorse. They are evil, and they must be stopped by being destroyed. 

No, they don't, they want to preserve it. Collectors,Keepers both preserved species, Human Reaper was another act of preservation. Lesser species are left in peace able to evolve free from interference from other organics.

They want to preserve the genetic memory of a species, its essence. 

They do that by killing everyone. 

This is great in hindsight. Don't worry, even though trillions are dead your species has been preserved in its most basic form as a Reaper, that is then going to go on and kill trillions in the next cycle. 

To me that makes it worse. 

[Pride Demon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Like I said...We don't even know if it's real.

Also, I did say he only offered control and synthesis.

In my post I addressed both of those points, why do you bring them up again?

The first by saying it has no bearing on the veridicity of my original post, whether the ending is or not an illusion isn't important at all for what I was saying, it may be important for other things, but not for that.
I never EVER showed any hint of having any desire to discuss IT or whether the ending is or not true.
Frankly I don't see why you feel the need to constantly bring up a point that's outside the scope of the discussion, so allow me to ask you directly, what do you stand to gain from that? Because, by now, unless I'm painfully incapable of explaining myself (which would be problematic), it's obvious you have an agenda or some sort of ulterior motive...

The other sentence is correct if you are thinking of "did shepard knew the option existed beforehand?", but totally wrong if, as I said, you are talking about "did Shepard knew how to execute the ending, regardless of the ending chosen?", and the second one is the one I'm talking about, the second, not the first, the second.
The answer is "No", the Catalyst had to tell/show you how each ending worked and it is the only source of info on the subject... I was merely pointing out that apparently people are willing to believe that the first thing he says about destroy is true, but not what he says about the rest...
You may argue it seems to favour one over another, but again, it does explain each and every one of them...

The statement "
.We don't even know if it's real" Is double edge sword. We don't know what is true or not. It's implied that the star child maybe lieing about everything, even the reality of what is being see or even what what does. Understand.
That's my point. We can't trust him with out any proof.

For all we know, even one of thing show are just way to kill Shepard only.
One choice has shep grab a live wire.
Another has him run off the legde to a firy lazer.
And one hashim walk into an explotion..

Everything can be a lie.

Good. That's exactly what I was saying. Then let me quote you from a previous post.

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A:
Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has
failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So
I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was
lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......

Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

^This post of yours, the one that started this whole discussion, if you agree with me everything could be a lie, what was its meaning?
Were you trying to post something to support my idea?
Because I still don't see how it has any bearing on the fact I noted so many people took the Cathalist explanation of destroy at face value, while doubting the rest...

I can argue more than one point. I personally think the ending is an indoctrition dream all a dream but yesterday I agrued on the point of it being all real...
http://social.biowar.../index/11972753

It pretty clear I'm open minded to all logic arguements.

Never said otherwise, your capability to be open minded was not in question here, nor would I offend you by putting it into question. That's not what I asked you...
I asked what bearing that original post of yours had on what I said, I merely asked clarification from you, because by what you said on the top quote you apparently agree with me, but the very reason our discussion started is that the first of your posts directed at me (the bottom quote) didn't seem to have a clear logical connection (at least for me) to the point I was trying to make...

When I asked you to clarify, reiterating what I was saying (thinking maybe I had explained myself wrongly or had been unclear), you started arguing as if you were opposing what I said, this started a debate, etc...
Now that we have verified we actually agree on the point the catalyst may be lying for all the options, including destroy, my curiosity has simply returned to the meaning of your original post directed at me.

I ask again, were you trying to support my point with it? Because if we agree on the premise behind my arguement, I really don't understand what else you were implying with it...

EDIT: Corrected the last link, I linked the wrong post...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 11 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[Thaa_solon]

"The reapers are alien, unknowable. perhaps they nees slaves or
resources. More likely they are driven by motives and goals organic
beings cannot hope comprehend"

"In the end what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them"

[dreman9999]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Reapers just kill people. Everything about them is malicious. Even when dead (or pretty much dead if you see it that way) they still mess with people's minds. We don't have their perspecitve. Nothing about them seems sympathetic, there's no flip-side like there might be for your example. 

All that matters is that they want to kill everyone, without mercy. They take no pity on anyone, they show no remorse. They are evil, and they must be stopped by being destroyed. 

No, they don't, they want to preserve it. Collectors,Keepers both preserved species, Human Reaper was another act of preservation. Lesser species are left in peace able to evolve free from interference from other organics.

Do you understand that perserving you kills your indivisuality and ego, Killing who you are anyway?

[dreman9999]

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Like I said...We don't even know if it's real.

Also, I did say he only offered control and synthesis.

In my post I addressed both of those points, why do you bring them up again?

The first by saying it has no bearing on the veridicity of my original post, whether the ending is or not an illusion isn't important at all for what I was saying, it may be important for other things, but not for that.
I never EVER showed any hint of having any desire to discuss IT or whether the ending is or not true.
Frankly I don't see why you feel the need to constantly bring up a point that's outside the scope of the discussion, so allow me to ask you directly, what do you stand to gain from that? Because, by now, unless I'm painfully incapable of explaining myself (which would be problematic), it's obvious you have an agenda or some sort of ulterior motive...

The other sentence is correct if you are thinking of "did shepard knew the option existed beforehand?", but totally wrong if, as I said, you are talking about "did Shepard knew how to execute the ending, regardless of the ending chosen?", and the second one is the one I'm talking about, the second, not the first, the second.
The answer is "No", the Catalyst had to tell/show you how each ending worked and it is the only source of info on the subject... I was merely pointing out that apparently people are willing to believe that the first thing he says about destroy is true, but not what he says about the rest...
You may argue it seems to favour one over another, but again, it does explain each and every one of them...

The statement "
.We don't even know if it's real" Is double edge sword. We don't know what is true or not. It's implied that the star child maybe lieing about everything, even the reality of what is being see or even what what does. Understand.
That's my point. We can't trust him with out any proof.

For all we know, even one of thing show are just way to kill Shepard only.
One choice has shep grab a live wire.
Another has him run off the legde to a firy lazer.
And one hashim walk into an explotion..

Everything can be a lie.

Good. That's exactly what I was saying. Then let me quote you from a previous post.

dreman9999 wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

Okay gang, let's go over our choices.
A:
Attempt to do something literally everyone who ever attempted has
failed to do with literally no reason to think you'll fare any better
B: Give everyone Reaper implants
C: The only option that guarantees the Reapers will be destroyed (ie stopped)

HRM. I wonder which option will "STOP" them the most efficiently?

Actually, it's the choice the Catalyst tells will destroy them, other than its word you have nothing to know what will actually happen...
So
I really don't understand why some people are willing to believe he was
lying with the others and telling the truth on that one... :/

"I know your thinking of destroying us"......

Who is us? I was not thinking of destroying the cataylist?

^This post of yours, the one that started this whole discussion, if you agree with me everything could be a lie, what was its meaning?
Were you trying to post something to support my idea?
Because I still don't see how it has any bearing on the fact I noted so many people took the Cathalist explanation of destroy at face value, while doubting the rest...

I can argue more than one point. I personally think the ending is an indoctrition dream all a dream but yesterday I agrued on the point of it being all real...
http://social.biowar.../index/11972753

It pretty clear I'm open minded to all logic arguements.

Never said otherwise, your capability to be open minded was not in question here, nor would I offend you by putting it into question. That's not what I asked you...
I asked what bearing that original post of yours had on what I said, I merely asked clarification from you, because by what you said on the top quote you apparently agree with me, but the very reason our discussion started is that the first of your posts directed at me (the bottom quote) didn't seem to have a clear logical connection (at least for me) to the point I was trying to make...

When I asked you to clarify, reiterating what I was saying (thinking maybe I had explained myself wrongly or had been unclear), you started arguing as if you were opposing what I said, this started a debate, etc...
Now that we have verified we actually agree on the point the catalyst may be lying for all the options, including destroy, my curiosity has simply returned to the meaning of your original post directed at me.

I ask again, were you trying to support my point with it? Because if we agree on the premise behind my arguement, I really don't understand what else you were implying with it...

EDIT: Corrected the last link, I linked the wrong post...

My arguement will always be for not trusting anything the starchild say. And if they are all true,destroy is the only option.

[Zardoc]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Synthesis and Control aren't guaranteed to stop the Reapers. Destroy is. Deal with it.

No, it isn't, Your trusting the catalyst to be telling the truth, Nothing is stopping them from being rebuilt

I'm not trusting the Catalyst, that's why I picked Destroy. It's the closest thing we have to a good ending. And destroying the Reapers is much more likely to stop the Reaper threat than Green and Blue will ever be.

[dreman9999]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Synthesis and Control aren't guaranteed to stop the Reapers. Destroy is. Deal with it.

No, it isn't, Your trusting the catalyst to be telling the truth, Nothing is stopping them from being rebuilt

Learn how indoctrination works first.....It's base on a conection to a will. If all the reapers are dead, they have no will to us to indoctriante any one. Not one will be indoctrianted anymore because they areall dead.

[ReXspec]

The only good Reaper, is a dead Reaper.

I hated sacrificing the Geth, but it was that, or choose the other two decisions that were arguably worse.

/thread

[jijeebo]

If I have to read:

"I don't trust the catalyst, that's why destroy is the only one that is 100% going to stop the reapers."

one more time... I'm going to scream.


Why would the Catalyst lie about the options that let the reapers live, and then be 100% honest in telling you HOW TO WIPE THEM ALL OUT?

Hello hypocrisy, thy name is Destroy.

[The Night Mammoth]

jijeebo wrote...

If I have to read:

"I don't trust the catalyst, that's why destroy is the only one that is 100% going to stop the reapers."

one more time... I'm going to scream.


Why would the Catalyst lie about the options that let the reapers live, and then be 100% honest in telling you HOW TO WIPE THEM ALL OUT?

Hello hypocrisy, thy name is Destroy.

Not trusting something does not mean that it was lying.