634 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Lenimph wrote...

I'm just going to stop talking to the wall. 

Smart.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I think he was referring to feeling like you're watching 'some perverted old man's escapist fantasy.' I haven't seen the series but the books can stray into self-indulgent when it comes to some of the sex scenes.

The funny thing about this thread is that dark fantasy tends to be immature when it comes to human sexuality. The Witcher isn't an exception in this regards, it's the norm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
My point being: I admire ruthless determination & competent scheming. It has nothing to do with being nice or kind. One of England's personally NICEST (!) and artless rulers gained the moniker "Bloody" because of her misguided acts of violence to save her people's souls through fire and torture.

Anger and revenge aren't motivations I consider competent or admirable. It is why I do not care for Alistair's tantrums at the Landsmeet. Not saying that Radovid & Alistair are alike. It is their motivations I question & finally discard as pointless.

I couldn't care less what you think of them as characters, that's not the point.

The point is, they remained human. They didn't have demons go inside their heads, or evil swords that corrupted them, or giant space metal bugs that indoctrinated them, that made we them do what they did.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm still going to point out that the idea is thrown out that Ves could've betrayed the Blue Stripes, though it's not a popular idea it's somewhat plausible and hinted by one line in the game. Which adds a lot more to the situation.

In addition, if such a situation were present within say... Dragon Age, killing the rapist would most likely result in the happy ending where everybody is pleased that their **** king is dead and everybody praises you.

Often times (not all), the simplicity of the Dragon Age world becomes clear and choosing the "good path" often yields best results. Rarely, if ever, do you get insulted by people for choosing the "good" option while everybody questions you for picking the "gray"/"evil" decision and then the good decision just works out perfectly.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 mai 2012 - 09:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm still going to point out that the idea is thrown out that Ves could've betrayed the Blue Stripes, though it's not a popular idea it's somewhat plausible and hinted by one line in the game.

In addition, if such a situation were present within say... Dragon Age, killing the rapist would most likely result in the happy ending where everybody is pleased that their **** king is dead and everybody praises you.

Often times (not all), the simplicity of the Dragon Age world becomes clear and choosing the "good path" often yields best results. Rarely, if ever, do you get insulted by people for choosing the "good" option while everybody questions you for picking the "gray"/"evil" decision and then the good decision just works out perfectly.

Indeed.
You see this in Flotsam as well.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I think he was referring to feeling like you're watching 'some perverted old man's escapist fantasy.' I haven't seen the series but the books can stray into self-indulgent when it comes to some of the sex scenes.

The funny thing about this thread is that dark fantasy tends to be immature when it comes to human sexuality. The Witcher isn't an exception in this regards, it's the norm.

Yeah, and said people I've talked to didn't describe this as "mature" or even good, it was summarized as being creepy.

As I haven't read the books myself, I can't elaborate further.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
My point being: I admire ruthless determination & competent scheming. It has nothing to do with being nice or kind. One of England's personally NICEST (!) and artless rulers gained the moniker "Bloody" because of her misguided acts of violence to save her people's souls through fire and torture.

Anger and revenge aren't motivations I consider competent or admirable. It is why I do not care for Alistair's tantrums at the Landsmeet. Not saying that Radovid & Alistair are alike. It is their motivations I question & finally discard as pointless.

I couldn't care less what you think of them as characters, that's not the point.

The point is, they remained human. They didn't have demons go inside their heads, or evil swords that corrupted them, or giant space metal bugs that indoctrinated them, that made we them do what they did.

So you are against super-natural influences in a fantasy RPG..... ok. There is more to their motivations than that and you know that.

Is a serial killer like Ted Bundy more human in his motivations than TIM or Saren? Because in Bundy's case, he did what he did based on psychological makeup, sadism, bloodlust, sexual depravity and so forth?

[addiction21]

Did this thread turn into a warm up for when the DA3 subforums are opened?

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I think he was referring to feeling like you're watching 'some perverted old man's escapist fantasy.' I haven't seen the series but the books can stray into self-indulgent when it comes to some of the sex scenes.

The funny thing about this thread is that dark fantasy tends to be immature when it comes to human sexuality. The Witcher isn't an exception in this regards, it's the norm.

Yeah, and said people I've talked to didn't describe this as "mature" or even good, it was summarized as being creepy.

As I haven't read the books myself, I can't elaborate further.

Well, we all know how little agreement there is to be found on the level of nudity/sex that should be in a game on these forums. I give credit where its due: TW2 goes there. DA doesn't, and likely never will. There's no reason scenes like Triss stripping for a casual lover or the Vess romance should be considered creepy imo. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[KJandrew]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I think he was referring to feeling like you're watching 'some perverted old man's escapist fantasy.' I haven't seen the series but the books can stray into self-indulgent when it comes to some of the sex scenes. .

Especially Jon and Ygritte in the cave, and I don't want to have to think about the "fat, pink mast" ever again

[Persephone]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm still going to point out that the idea is thrown out that Ves could've betrayed the Blue Stripes, though it's not a popular idea it's somewhat plausible and hinted by one line in the game. Which adds a lot more to the situation.

In addition, if such a situation were present within say... Dragon Age, killing the rapist would most likely result in the happy ending where everybody is pleased that their **** king is dead and everybody praises you.

Often times (not all), the simplicity of the Dragon Age world becomes clear and choosing the "good path" often yields best results. Rarely, if ever, do you get insulted by people for choosing the "good" option while everybody questions you for picking the "gray"/"evil" decision and then the good decision just works out perfectly.

This I completely agree with. One of the Witcher Series' crowning achievements is not presenting you with the "Do good" & be rewarded trap while choosing the more ruthless options results in being punished for said choices.

Bioware did that too in the BG series. Sadly they abandoned that kind of writing in DAO and ME.

[Lenimph]

addiction21 wrote...

Did this thread turn into a warm up for when the DA3 subforums are opened?

Yes 

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

Well, we all know how little agreement there is to be found on the level of nudity/sex that should be in a game on these forums. I give credit where its due: TW2 goes there. DA doesn't, and likely never will. There's no reason scenes like Triss stripping for a casual lover or the Vess romance should be considered creepy imo. 

I'm not actually talking about nudity.  I'm talking about the difference between exploitation and characterization.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Is a serial killer like Ted Bundy more human in his motivations than TIM or Saren? Because in Bundy's case, he did what he did based on psychological makeup, sadism, bloodlust, sexual depravity and so forth?

Yes, obviously.

If he was the main antagonist in a game, then the best way to portray him is to explore his insanity. I may not be a huge fan of insane antagonists, but exploring insanity in an in-depth and well thoughout way without plot devices because humanity really doens't need them, could be fascinating. Also the interaction with the protagonist would also be critical, because I don't like to take either in isolation.

Insanity really dfoesn't need supernatural elements. In fact it usually weakens it and is used as a plot hammering device in lieu of actual development and in-depth analysis. It just wants us to accept the fact that demons / idol / reapers just turn people insane, now shut up and keep shooting them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 09:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...
That sounds like Mass Effect (specifically the ending of 2). I didn't feel like Dragon Age hit me over the head with that. When they do "insult" you, thinking of the Connor situation here, you can explain to him why it was necessary.

The problem with the othewise very well done situation is the pointless and idiotic 3rd way that makes everyone happy with no consequences.

It just completely ruined that choice.

[TheMufflon]

slimgrin wrote...

Well, we all know how little agreement there is to be found on the level of nudity/sex that should be in a game on these forums. I give credit where its due: TW2 goes there. DA doesn't, and likely never will. There's no reason scenes like Triss stripping for a casual lover or the Vess romance should be considered creepy imo. 

But TW1, though? I hand a nice woman some tulips and she gives me a naked picture of herself. Freaked me right out!

[android654]

slimgrin wrote...
Well, we all know how little agreement there is to be found on the level of nudity/sex that should be in a game on these forums. I give credit where its due: TW2 goes there. DA doesn't, and likely never will. There's no reason scenes like Triss stripping for a casual lover or the Vess romance should be considered creepy imo. 

It's considered creepy because she isn't in 1920's underwear with spooky celtic chanting in the background. The relationship arcs in DA:O have moments where they're cute and make you chuckle. TW2 makes an attempt to make the dialogue feel organic and not not teenagers tripping over themselves. That justifies the sexual content because it feels appropratie for the scenes that came before.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Well, we all know how little agreement there is to be found on the level of nudity/sex that should be in a game on these forums. I give credit where its due: TW2 goes there. DA doesn't, and likely never will. There's no reason scenes like Triss stripping for a casual lover or the Vess romance should be considered creepy imo. 

I'm not actually talking about nudity.  I'm talking about the difference between exploitation and characterization.

So casual sex is exploitation? Because that's all there is in TW2. It's all casual sex, even with Triss.

[upsettingshorts]

android654 wrote...

It's considered creepy because she isn't in 1920's underwear with spooky celtic chanting in the background. 

Strawman.

Criticism of TW2's approach to sex scenes does not equal endorsement of DAO's.

slimgrin wrote...

So casual sex is exploitation?

No. 

It's a genre of film, which has some overlap with certain cinematic games.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 09:55 .

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's how parts of The Witcher come off to me.  I feel gross playing it, and at the very least need to be fully dressed in a well-lit room to not feel like I've just loaded some perverted old man's escapist fantasty and be obligated to apologize personally to every woman I've ever met

Lol Game of Thrones would probably terrify you.

What?  I watch it.  I know many people who've read the series as well and can't stand The Witcher.

I think he was referring to feeling like you're watching 'some perverted old man's escapist fantasy.' I haven't seen the series but the books can stray into self-indulgent when it comes to some of the sex scenes.

The funny thing about this thread is that dark fantasy tends to be immature when it comes to human sexuality. The Witcher isn't an exception in this regards, it's the norm.

Yeah, and said people I've talked to didn't describe this as "mature" or even good, it was summarized as being creepy.

As I haven't read the books myself, I can't elaborate further.

The sex scenes in ASoIaF are pretty deliberately skeevy and not what I'd call erotic. They're pretty brief and typically have some sort of purpose of plot or characterization if it gets into any explicit detail. The manner in which actual erotica or works meant primarily to titillate are written is wildly different from how AFoIaF's sex scenes are presented. (edit: beyond jon and ygritte's scenes which were indeed pretty bad, but those were kind of an outlier)

HBO is, of course, HBO. There's more of the pandering element there but it doesn't quite reach the level of problematic objectification that comes along with The Witcher's content. For the most part, you at least get the sense that the female characters in Game of Thrones exist for a purpose beyond just making the viewer's dick hard.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 mai 2012 - 09:54 .

[android654]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

android654 wrote...

It's considered creepy because she isn't in 1920's underwear with spooky celtic chanting in the background. 

Strawman.

Criticism of TW2's approach to sex scenes does not equal endorsement of DAO's.

1. It's called humor. Chill out.

2. Read the rest of the comment.

[Maria Caliban]

Persephone wrote...

So you are against super-natural influences in a fantasy RPG..... ok.

I think super-natural influences in fantasy can be good or bad.

Good examples would be the Shining (movie) or Call of Cthulu: Dark Corners of the Earth (game.) In both of them, the viewpoint character witnesses the degeneration of humanity because of an unnatural influence. They work because they're explicitly horror and the supernatural is used as something powerful and unknowable, but very specific about its desires.

Bad examples would be a huge amount of Urban Fantasy where the human female protagonist meets a supernatual man and they fall in love because 'magic!' Here the supernatural is used to circumvent the development of affection and any lingering doubts about why a rational woman would want to date someone who sees her as chattel and occasionally flies into violent, murderous rages.

When people ask for less supernatural in their fantasy, it's because lots of authors are sloppy with it. They use the supernatural to take shortcuts when it comes to plot or characters.

[slimgrin]

ipgd wrote...


HBO is, of course, HBO. There's more of the pandering element there but it doesn't quite reach the level of problematic objectification that comes along with The Witcher's content. For the most part, you at least get the sense that the female characters in Game of Thrones exist for a purpose beyond just making the viewer's dick hard.

Woah...have you even played the game? This is completely untrue, for both Witcher games actually. They have some of the strongest and most nuanced female characters I've seen in gaming.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2012 - 09:56 .