634 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Persephone wrote...

Is a serial killer like Ted Bundy more human in his motivations than TIM or Saren? Because in Bundy's case, he did what he did based on psychological makeup, sadism, bloodlust, sexual depravity and so forth?

Psycopaths have their place in certain storylines, most of them have very human influences on their life which led them to where they've become. For example, a man constantly ridiculed snaps and starts hunting down his tormentors is "human", despite the fact that it's insane. However, psycopaths tend to try and not be "gray".

You may feel sympathy for the man who was bullied all his life but you don't see the reason for his actions, his decisions and much more. However, when the man goes around killing everybody because he's possessed or something, that removes some elements of the person's "humanity".

You may feel sympathetic that the man is possessed but nothing he does is of his own volition, thus does the character not lose the "essence" of himself? The Illusive Man, for example, was great when he was sacrificing everything in the name of progress and advancing humanity. People hated him for it, however.

Then when they revealed he as indoctrinated, everybody started posting how they felt so bad for him and he was a good guy all along (which made me chuckle). Thus, the character they had built in Mass Effect 2 and most of Mass Effect 3 was thus shattered into pieces and everybody's opinions were warped by the indoctrination.

Mind control / Indoctrination / Possession is a third party effect outside of the character which taints the character's arguable motivations to try and portray them as evil, it's the cheap way out of decent writing and it's a plot device to turn anybody evil for the sake of it. You can't side with Meredith, Orsino, TIM, Saren or anybody else in the end because they're possessed by something influencing them.

Which is why many consider Loghain to be a fluke, he commited atrocities without a third party influencing him and he had very human motivations to do so. Everything he experienced in the novels shaped him to be who he is, which is why I absolutely adore him (until they eventually reveal he was indoctrinated by Flemeth).

A psycopath can play his role, especially in detective-esque games or comic-book games where you must discover who he is, just not in more political / grand scale plots.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[Costin_Razvan]

For the most part, you at least get the sense that the female characters in Game of Thrones exist for a purpose beyond just making the viewer's dick hard.

Triss, Ves and Cynthia exist just to arouse the male gamer? You clearly have no ****ing clue what you are talking about

[ipgd]

slimgrin wrote...

They have some of the strongest and most nuanced female characters I've seen in gaming.

what... what games have you been playing

[android654]

ipgd wrote...


HBO is, of course, HBO. There's more of the pandering element there but it doesn't quite reach the level of problematic objectification that comes along with The Witcher's content. For the most part, you at least get the sense that the female characters in Game of Thrones exist for a purpose beyond just making the viewer's dick hard.

TW2 and GOT have one strong thing in common, and that's that all of the women in the main cast not only have a purpose for the story but they're all pretty strong, independent and self-driven characters. I'm under teh suspicion that you r knowledge comes from guessing more than knowing the actual story.

[Costin_Razvan]

This game

http://www.youtube.c...x_GkuGX88#t=20s

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

[slimgrin]

ipgd wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

They have some of the strongest and most nuanced female characters I've seen in gaming.

what... what games have you been playing

So, you haven't played the game...

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[Dave of Canada]

ipgd wrote...

what... what games have you been playing

The one with Ves, Triss, Cynthia, most of the female mages, Saskia, ect.

slimgrin wrote...

So, you haven't playd the game...

 

Most of them watched Shorts play it until Flotsam then he decided he hated the game, so everybody else did too.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

Woah...have you even played the game? This is completely untrue, for both Witcher games actually. They have some of the strongest and most nuanced female characters I've seen in gaming.

I can only comment on TW1, but in response to that game alone I find your analysis laughable.  Sex cards exist and there is no justifying them.  Seriously, if I was going to do a project that attempted to detail misogyny and exploitation in video games I'd start with TW1.  

TW2 I've only seen much of it in isolation and without context so any criticism on the subject of characterization is best left to other people.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of them watched Shorts play it until Flotsam then he decided he hated the game, so everybody else did too.

I clearly have mind control powers.

But yeah, Flotsam is as far as I got.  I've been consistent in describing my experience as a sharp, swift, downhill one that ended there.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 10:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I think super-natural influences in fantasy can be good or bad.

Good examples would be the Shining (movie) or Call of Cthulu: Dark Corners of the Earth (game.) In both of them, the viewpoint character witnesses the degeneration of humanity because of an unnatural influence. They work because they're explicitly horror and the supernatural is used as something powerful and unknowable, but very specific about its desires.

Bad examples would be a huge amount of Urban Fantasy where the human female protagonist meets a supernatual man and they fall in love because 'magic!' Here the supernatural is used to circumvent the development of affection and any lingering doubts about why a rational woman would want to date someone who sees her as chattel and occasionally flies into violent, murderous rages.

When people ask for less supernatural in their fantasy, it's because lots of authors are sloppy with it. They use the supernatural to take shortcuts when it comes to plot or characters.

I agree with you.

My problem is when supernatural elements *supplant * human development, whether political, emotional or psychological.

Jade Empire had supernatural elements. Heck the whole plot is centered around the Dragon Goddess. But not only did I not mind it, but I really enjoyed it because supernatural elements there were used, for the most part, to *complement* human development and not replace it.

I was pleasantly surprised when the game allowed me to say something that I've been wanting to say throughout. Essentially a humanist statement of "humanity will decide its own destiny, screw spirits and gods."

And mind you I played this game recently, after the DA2 and ME3 debacles. And I loved it. Just so that people know I am not a "Bioware hater" who likes to hate on them for the lulz.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
Shani.

Not mentioning her = / forgetting that she exists.  The codex entry they added for her in the EE should have been there in the beginning, though.

If you side with the elves & dwarves in TW1, there is no reflection back to that choice when dealing with Iorveth & his followers.

You can talk about that with Iorveth.

I do not mind Dethmold being slimy. I mind the "effeminate schemer" cliche.

Everyone's a schemer in TW2.  Dethmold is fussy, but that's all the mages- it's a noble thing.  Watch the EE opening cinematic, for instance- Demavend's mage thinks it's all kind of crass.  I don't consider Dethmold effeminate, myself.  That term would never have occurred to me.

Torture for the sake of torture is pointless. If a ruler wants to eliminate a threat, he should do so & cut out the cat & mouse sociopath act.

He was getting revenge on Philippa for turning on him.  It's completely normal in the Witcher universe and in a medieval universe in general.  One town that William the Conqueror was besieging hung animal hides on their walls to mock his mother's low birth as daughter of a tanner, so he cut off the hands of all the prisoners he took before executing them.  Was he a sociopath?  A regular punishment for murderers in medieval Europe was breaking on a wheel.  They started breaking bones from the feet up.  It was meant to be painful and drawn out in order to provide deterrence.  So was every ruler in the Middle Ages a sociopath?  Was Henselt a sociopath for nailing Sabrina Glevissig to a wheel before burning her?

Modifié par Addai67, 12 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[Chromie]

ipgd wrote...
 For the most part, you at least get the sense that the female characters in Game of Thrones exist for a purpose beyond just making the viewer's dick hard.

Now your just making up ****. You clearly haven't played the game if you honestly think that. Eilhart, Saskia, Shila etc. these are some pretty powerful women if you can't look past a simple 30 second skippable cutscene that's your problem.

[Maria Caliban]

KJandrew wrote...

Especially Jon and Ygritte in the cave, and I don't want to have to think about the "fat, pink mast" ever again

"Fat, pink mast" is very memorable. "Her nipples were two black diamonds..." is another.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Woah...have you even played the game? This is completely untrue, for both Witcher games actually. They have some of the strongest and most nuanced female characters I've seen in gaming.

I can only comment on TW1, but in response to that game alone I find your analysis laughable.  Sex cards exist and there is no justifying them.  Seriously, if I was going to do a project that attempted to detail misogyny and exploitation in video games I'd start with TW1.  

TW2 I've only seen much of it in isolation and without context so any criticism on the subject of characterization is best left to other people.

Everyone brings up the sex cards, but forget the female leads who played an important role in the story. I can think of four in TW1, but I'm not going in depth here. 

As for the sex cards and the way Triss dressed in TW1, which was out of character and silly, CDPR rectified all that for TW2. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

So, you haven't playd the game...

 

Most of them watched Shorts play it until Flotsam then he decided he hated the game, so everybody else did too.

Wow, he's better at the personality cult than I am 


Obviously those who say that women in TW2 exist only to give males hard ons didn't play the game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[ipgd]

you caught me, guys. i used a hyperbole !!!!

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of them watched Shorts play it until Flotsam then he decided he hated the game, so everybody else did too.

I don't hate the game. The way the sex scenes are handled skeeve me in a way that ASoIaF's don't, which was the sole thing I commented on.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


But yeah, Flotsam is as far as I got.  I've been consistent in describing my experience as a sharp, swift, downhill one that ended there.

This surprises me you bailed so soon. If you hate the monster contracts, don't do them. If you think the sex is degrading, don't take part. I gave GTA4 30 bloody hrs before I decided it was on my list of all time overrated games.

[Sajji]

How does this correlate into DA3 receiving the biggest backlash ever?

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obviously those who say that women in TW2 exist only to give males hard ons didn't play the game.

Once again all I'll say is there's a difference between nudity and exploitation, and that it's totally possible to have a scene fit firmly within the exploitation genre and still involve characters critically important to the plot.

The concept of exploitation in cinema is a recognizable one, and something that can be evaluated in isolation, such as in YouTube clips.

Triss or Ves relative strength of characterization, on the other hand, is something I am not qualified to comment on.

slimgrin wrote...

This surprises me you bailed so soon. If you hate the monster contracts, don't do them. If you think the sex is degrading, don't take part. I gave GTA4 30 bloody hrs before I decided it was on my list of all time overrated games.

The list of things I disliked had rapidly become too numerous to justify continuing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 mai 2012 - 10:13 .

[TheMufflon]

slimgrin wrote...

This surprises me you bailed so soon. If you hate the monster contracts, don't do them. 

In point of fact, the first half or so of Flotsam revolves around a monster contract which you have no choice of skipping.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obviously those who say that women in TW2 exist only to give males hard ons didn't play the game.

Once again all I'll say is there's a difference between nudity and exploitation, and that it's totally possible to have a scene fit firmly within the exploitation genre and still involve characters critically important to the plot.

Miranda's ass (or EDI's ******) seems more exploitative to me than Witcher 2 sex scenes. Because they are in place, in context and fit in the tone of the game.

I don't really see what's wrong with the sex scenes. They are all in one way or the other justified within the plot if one seeks to engage in them, other than prostitutes.

Witcher 1 is ridiculous in that regard, I won't argue in its favor when it comes to that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mai 2012 - 10:13 .

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I can only comment on TW1, but in response to that game alone I find your analysis laughable.  Sex cards exist and there is no justifying them.  Seriously, if I was going to do a project that attempted to detail misogyny and exploitation in video games I'd start with TW1.  

This is one of the rare times I disagree with you. Sure, the cards are a bit immature. But I thought they served a useful function anyway. Having sex is a rewarding activity in a way that making your RPG character have sex just isn't. I thought it was a good thing to have a reward system attached to the sex. Even if --- especially if -- you decide that collecting those rewards isn't a worthwhile thing to do.

[android654]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Sajji wrote...

How does this correlate into DA3 receiving the biggest backlash ever?

it seems all BW forums are beginning to descend into "TW did it better" threads.

Kind of hard to avoid when it's true.

[Sajji]

Slim...monster contracts aren't what some players expect.

Some expect continuous dealings with crybaby mages, and fetching tissues to wipe their tears away from their oppression...

[slimgrin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I can only comment on TW1, but in response to that game alone I find your analysis laughable.  Sex cards exist and there is no justifying them.  Seriously, if I was going to do a project that attempted to detail misogyny and exploitation in video games I'd start with TW1.  

This is one of the rare times I disagree with you. Sure, the cards are a bit immature. But I thought they served a useful function anyway. Having sex is a rewarding activity in a way that making your RPG character have sex just isn't. I thought it was a good thing to have a reward system attached to the sex. Even if --- especially if -- you decide that collecting those rewards isn't a worthwhile thing to do.

I'm convinced the cards were simply budget alternatives to cut scenes. The problem with sex in TW1 was the sheer number of times Geralt got laid and the ease with which he could.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mai 2012 - 10:16 .