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[mupp3tz]

In Exile wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Speaking of "the wheel," I hope they go back to DA:O style dialogue options.. where you're actually presented with multiple choices and conversation isn't just about exhausting all the possible options and then choosing "RED" or "BLUE."

Totes! Like in this here picture, where you get all of three options! Man, if only DA2 had three unique options every conversation or something...

Would be a good try, if there weren't hours of dialogue with more than 3 options.

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/56423/images/590/Image_163.jpg&sa=X&ei=oJCxT7lt4fHpAduN9JUJ&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHtvct7JD_MCu_1OQEOTpLsn8VNlQ[/img]

Is it easy to tell what the *right* choice is in this case? Why, no.. it's not.  How shocking.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mai 2012 - 11:16 .

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Good job on pointless image.  Would be a good try, if there weren't hours of dialogue with more than 3 options.

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/56423/images/590/Image_163.jpg&sa=X&ei=oJCxT7lt4fHpAduN9JUJ&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHtvct7JD_MCu_1OQEOTpLsn8VNlQ[/img]

Is it easy to tell what the *right* choice is in this case? Why, no.. it's not.  How shocking.

Well, that's funny. Let's play some more!

[img]http://thousandhp.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/wheel.jpg[/img]

Please, tell me what the right choice is in that exchange. I'd love to know. Because I've got 7 options to your 5, so I win.

[mupp3tz]

Investigate doesn't count! ...aand I would dare say that the LI option is a "in your pants" choice, so the only morally ambiguous options are: *dun dun dun* a whopping: 3 -- because.. LOL 7? Count better.

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4EoIBVO_0lw/TYFEq4V_OjI/AAAAAAAAACE/bnKNBIYuR8k/s1600/0.jpg&sa=X&ei=lJKxT8ewK-r86QHDueSrCQ&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHVcSir2vSyvTyit9IRt6Fjf8MJ8g[/img]

Pretend that the image is the Connor scene.  I was going to dig up a YouTube video.. but the site doesn't seem to be working for me. :[

Also, another good example are the camp dialogues where you only really have 1 chance to pick 1 out of 5 dialogues and your decision leads to a specific response.  In the end, 5 REAL choices is still better than DA:2.  I found them overall to be more thought provoking than DA:2 conflict, in general.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mai 2012 - 11:24 .

[Chromie]

 Doesn't DA2 have a lot less dialogue then Origins?

Edit: Google has the answer!

Dragon Age: Origins 
1,000,000 Words
1,000 Cinematics
1,000 Characters
56,000 Spoken Lines 
60 Hours of Gameplay

Dragon Age II
400,000 Words
2,500 Cinematics
500 Characters
38,000 Spoken Lines
40 Hours of Gameplay

http://www.vgchartz....more-cinematic/ 

Modifié par Skelter192, 14 mai 2012 - 11:25 .

[mupp3tz]

I was going to say yes, but you gave a much more detailed (and accurate) response.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Investigate doesn't count! ...aand I would dare say that the LI option is a "in your pants" choice, so the only morally ambiguous options are: *dun dun dun* a whopping: 3 -- because.. LOL 7? Count better.

Oh, investigate options don't count? They have to be morally amibiguous?

Well, then, please tell me what's morally amibigous in the scene you posted:

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4EoIBVO_0lw/TYFEq4V_OjI/AAAAAAAAACE/bnKNBIYuR8k/s1600/0.jpg&sa=X&ei=lJKxT8ewK-r86QHDueSrCQ&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHVcSir2vSyvTyit9IRt6Fjf8MJ8g[/img]


You've got two statements, and three questions (i.e. clearly investigate) options.

If you're going to try to prove to me that DA:O has more dialogue options, you're not picking the right scenes.

Pretend that the image is the Connor scene.  I was going to dig up a YouTube video.. but the site doesn't seem to be working for me. :[

You mean the scene where you have 2 or 3 choices, depending on what happened with the Mages?

Also, another good example are the camp dialogues where you only really have 1 chance to pick 1 out of 5 dialogues and your decision leads to a specific response.  In the end, 5 REAL choices is still better than DA:2.  I found them overall to be more thought provoking than DA:2 conflict, in general.

You mean, 5 choices that are pruned into 1-2 unique NPC responses? No, that doesn't count. Just like how in ME1 (when Bioware pulled this with VO) Shepard having 3 options on the dialogue wheel and 1 actual line doesn't count.

[In Exile]

Skelter192 wrote...

 Doesn't DA2 have a lot less dialogue then Origins?

Edit: Google has the answer!

http://www.vgchartz....more-cinematic/ 

I never said DA:O had more dialogue. I said the dialogue wheel doesn't give us less choice. This isn't about VO, but about UI

[Chromie]

In Exile wrote...

I never said DA:O had more dialogue. I said the dialogue wheel doesn't give us less choice. This isn't about VO, but about UI

Less dialogue would lead to less choices no? Well possibly.

Modifié par Skelter192, 14 mai 2012 - 11:38 .

[mupp3tz]

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of the camp dialogue where you're getting to know your group. I distinctly remember having 5 unique dialogue options during the conversation at multiple points.. I even reloaded and tried a different path. Most often than not, I would get at least 1-2 unique lines of dialogue for deciding to take that specific tone.

I also favored seeing like.. an entire line of dialogue of what my character was going to say. This most likely has to do with the fact that the protagonist is *mute*. Now, with the introduction of voiced Hawke, you get the ME type of dialogue with a short phrase that hints at the tone/direction of the response.

Edit: This is what I mean.

You had much more control over how you responded.. and conversations could be navigated many different ways.  Mind you this guide only shows how to get maximum approvals, but you can see how the variety in choices leads to different conversation options later down the path, different approvals/disapprovals, and a more realistic approach to conversation.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mai 2012 - 11:45 .

[In Exile]

Skelter192 wrote...

Less dialogue would lead to less choices no? Well possibly.

No. You can have the same options/conversations, and less conversations. You could (hypothetically speaking) have more choice, too. That is, choice/conversation goes way up, but you could have 70% less conversations.

It's all frequency, and these measures are not related. Which is my point.

I'm firmly a believer we got DA2 because of the extent to which, pre DA2/ME3, people just ignored all of the serious flaws in Bioware's design. But goodwill was burden when Bioware scrapped beloved features, and suddenly people saw the games for what design errors were always present.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of the camp dialogue where you're
getting to know your group. I distinctly remember having 5 unique
dialogue options during the conversation at multiple points.. I even
reloaded and tried a different path. Most often than not, I would get
at least 1-2 unique lines of dialogue for deciding to take that specific
tone.

1-2 unique lines of dialogue is not 5 unique reactions, one for each line.

I also favored seeing like.. an entire line of dialogue of what my
character was going to say. This most likely has to do with the fact
that the protagonist is *mute*. Now, with the introduction of voiced
Hawke, you get the ME type of dialogue with a short phrase that hints at
the tone/direction of the response.

That's a UI thing. I'm not disputing you on that. I prefer the Deus Ex HR way of doing dialogue.

I just don't think the wheel has anything to do with the number of options.

Edit: This is what I mean.

You had much more control over how you responded.. and conversations could be navigated many different ways. 

That list doesn't show anything. It's just a list of your responses. But it doesn't show how Bioware (or if, rather) grouped them to a single NPC response, for how many unique reactions we get.

[mupp3tz]

Added an edit to my earlier post!

I keep using Morrigan, but here is the wiki entry that shows how she reacts differently to conversation options.  I really wish I could pull up a YouTube video... because, I honestly do remember her saying a line or two different depending on what you say.  But.. I can't say 100% just how unique her response is.

Let's say there are 2 negative responses.. one will lead to a snarky remark then to linear close.. the other will lead to an angry rant then to a linear close.  I really enjoyed that sort of banter. 

Essentially, I liked the fact that *I* was given multiple options.. despite there being ones that are obviously supporting, neutral, or rejecting.  Atleast, I got different shades of them... which, in some cases warranted a different response. 

In the Wiki, you can see that one choice could give you -2 approval, while another gives +10.. and yet another gives you +5, but -10 from another squaddie.

Now, this doesn't illustrate that there is a unique VOCAL reaction to each of the 5 choices you are given... but, it's definitely more diversity than I was given in DA:2.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 14 mai 2012 - 11:55 .

[mupp3tz]

Also, I don't 100% remember Deus Ex Human Revolutions, but I remember having to actually think hard about what type of response to make.. so, I would say they implemented theirs UI well, if I recall correctly.

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
I keep using Morrigan, but here is the wiki entry that shows how she reacts differently to conversation options.  I really wish I could pull up a YouTube video... because, I honestly do remember her saying a line or two different depending on what you say.  But.. I can't say 100% just how unique her response is.

I don't disagree with you. It's just not one unique like for 5 options. Bioware's never done that. 

Let's say there are 2 negative responses.. one will lead to a snarky remark then to linear close.. the other will lead to an angry rant then to a linear close.  I really enjoyed that sort of banter. 

If you have 5 options, then 3 of them get an identical answer, then those aren't "options". I don't value meaningless options, and on re-plays that actually takes a lot away from the game for me.

Essentially, I liked the fact that *I* was given multiple options.. despite there being ones that are obviously supporting, neutral, or rejecting.  Atleast, I got different shades of them... which, in some cases warranted a different response. 

But many answers get identical response. I keep going back to ME1, but it's just like how the dialogue wheel there actively lied to you.

In the Wiki, you can see that one choice could give you -2 approval, while another gives +10.. and yet another gives you +5, but -10 from another squaddie.

That happens in DA2. And it's also not what you said happens in DA:O.

Now, this doesn't illustrate that there is a unique VOCAL reaction to each of the 5 choices you are given... but, it's definitely more diversity than I was given in DA:2.

If that's what you want, DA2 does it too. Example:

If you answer "I understand":

Anders: rivalry (+5)
Merrill: rivalry (+10)
Sebastian: friendship (+10)

The other option "I can't do that",:

Anders: friendship (+5)
Merrill: friendship (+5)
Sebastian: rivalry (+10)

And another example in that same quest:

If Hawke rejects the offer, Torpor must be defeated.
If you accept the demon's offer:

Anders: rivalry (+15)
Fenris: rivalry (+15)
Aveline: rivalry (+15)
Merrill: friendship (+5)

If you reject the demon's offer:

Aveline: friendship (+10)
Anders: friendship (+10)
Fenris: friendship (+5)
Merrill: rivalry (+5)

If you listen to the offer with Anders in your party, he will demand that you attack the demon.

If you listen to Anders and attack the demon:

Anders: friendship (+10)

If you tell Anders to back down, he will attack you.

Anders: rivalry (+10)
Fenris: friendship (+5)

Modifié par In Exile, 15 mai 2012 - 12:01 .

[mupp3tz]

But, see.. that all just boils down to "Yes" or "No"... listen to the offer, don't listen to the offer. Listen to Anders, don't listen to Anders.  Yes, I'll do it.. No, I won't. etc.

...whereas Dragon Age: Origins actually gave a different approval/disapproval for options:

"It may even be true. Still, those of us who prefer freedom see no reason to submit."

- Meaning what? “We’ll fight you to the end?” Disapproves (-3) (end)
- Have you no responsibility to those around you? Disapproves (-5) (end)
- If I were a mage, I might think the same. Approves (+1) (end)
- The Circle is not quite what you picture. Disapproves (-3) (Mage only) (end)
- I agree completely. Approves (+2) (end)
- If you say so. (end)

[*]6 different responses based on approval/disapproval.  You simply don't get that sort of option in DA:2.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 15 mai 2012 - 12:13 .

[In Exile]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

But, see.. that all just boils down to "Yes" or "No"... listen to the offer, don't listen to the offer. Listen to Anders, don't listen to Anders.  Yes, I'll do it.. No, I won't. etc.

That's because it's a two option quest. I'm going to be nice and let you completely shifting the goalposts slide, because I never got into talking about approval as actually being a meaningful choice (I disagree that it is entirely). 

But on your example here,  Bioware could have given you 600 choices, all at the cost of the writers having to invent them, because no NPC ever needs to respond to you. It has nothing to do with the UI - i.e., the dialogue wheel - and everything to do with voiced PCs and NPCs.

edit:

And hell, your second example just has three options. Which you now apparently edited out.

Modifié par In Exile, 15 mai 2012 - 12:14 .

[mupp3tz]

Well, to be honest, most of the quests were two options. Even in DA:O, but I enjoyed being given more flexibility in how I responded.  But... DA:2 had a lot of "Yes" or "No" type options, where DA:O would sometimes reward me with different shades of responses.  Could it maybe just be an illusion?  Possibly.  But did it help immerse me better? Hell yes!

Now that I think about it, though... DA:2's dialogue wheel was better than ME's. The latter definitely suffered from pointing you in blatant directions. Not to say I didn't enjoy the franchise. :]

Edit: Couldn't get the format to look normal on the 3 option one -- but, I suppose it wasn't the best example.  I'll give you that.  In the end, I really think the conversation trees were more dynamic and better suited for RPing than DA:2.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 15 mai 2012 - 12:18 .

[mupp3tz]

I am also a big fan of cinematics! I really find it hard to believe that there were over a thousand cinematics for DA:O and DA:2. Jeez.

[Aleya]

I don't think so. Pretty much the entire DA community seems set for disappointment, especially since many of us also play ME. If DA3 flops it likely won't be so much screaming rage as deafening silence. Not a bang, but a whimper.

At least that's what it'll be for me. Bioware was my first great love in gaming, and they've slowly been chipping away at that love for some time now. Once it's gone entirely I'll just go curl up on the couch and wait for CDProjekt to make another game. They'll be the only one left still producing the type of RPG I enjoy (sorry Bethesda fans, character interaction >>>> exploration as far as I'm concerned).

[Gatt9]

Aleya wrote...

I don't think so. Pretty much the entire DA community seems set for disappointment, especially since many of us also play ME. If DA3 flops it likely won't be so much screaming rage as deafening silence. Not a bang, but a whimper.

At least that's what it'll be for me. Bioware was my first great love in gaming, and they've slowly been chipping away at that love for some time now. Once it's gone entirely I'll just go curl up on the couch and wait for CDProjekt to make another game. They'll be the only one left still producing the type of RPG I enjoy (sorry Bethesda fans, character interaction >>>> exploration as far as I'm concerned).

Pretty much this.  The last couple Bioware games have already insured that people just don't expect a decent game.  I strongly suspect they've burned through all of their fanbase.

[Morroian]

Skelter192 wrote...

 Doesn't DA2 have a lot less dialogue then Origins?

DA2 is a shorter game so of course it had less dialogue in total.

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Investigate doesn't count! ...aand I would dare say that the LI option is a "in your pants" choice, so the only morally ambiguous options are: *dun dun dun* a whopping: 3 -- because.. LOL 7? Count better.

People keep saying this and its just not true. Investigate does count, there were investigate options in DAO they just weren't flagged as such. I actually wish they would go back to not flagging them so we don't get this type of reactionary response.

Modifié par Morroian, 16 mai 2012 - 12:06 .

[YohkoOhno]

While I do believe DA2 was a disappointment because of its rush to release, I can't say the same for ME3.

Outside the ending, ME3 is still a popular game, and I don't think a mediocre ending has killed the franchise or the experiences.

For all the talk of CDProjeckt's "The Witcher", it's bringing in low numbers. Only 320,813 units sold globally on XBOX, and that has more followers than the PC, compared to 2,191,856 units for ME3 for XBOX. Clearly, this good word of mouth isn't translating into sales and goodwill only gets you so far.

While there are a lot of fans pissed off on the Bioware forums, I can't say everybody is as vocal. It seems the older fans are likely more perturbed than the younger ones. I think part of it is age or familiarity--being a fan too long or being an older gamer tends to make you cynical and jaded, so Bioware's stories seem less attractive. People need to remember that every game is somebody's first game, so they can't always go after the hard core who've been with Bioware since BG.

One thing I've always been surprised at is "brand loyalists", because I've never followed a "label", I've either followed creators or series. I'm surprised people think of Bioware so fondly and have had such a loyalty, even though they weren't the only people responsible for the D&D games (Interplay, Atari, Obsidion, Black Isle, and TSR / Wizards of the Coast all had key roles in the BG series).  I'm suprised Bioware has such fans dedicated to  a whole studio.

So, as far as raging goes, I think Bioware will continue to improve the game, and hopefully won't make the mistakes that they did with DA2, but I also think no matter what people will get mad if something's different, like the rage against "multiplayer", which doesn't have to hurt single-player games and actually works better than I expected in ME3. I also hope fans will accept Bioware is not going to make the same games and BG2 and either move on or accept the tradeoffs between gaming in 1999 and 2012.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 16 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[eroeru]

DA:O certainly had more options and variety to the dialogue - no function was as clear as in DA2 (this was also a UI problem), and there were plenty of unique choices implementing skill-checks (first pic in favor of the "similarity" of DA:O to DA2) and involvement of the player via thoroughly thought-through (from both the players' and the devs' perspective) answers.

I actually needed to read the answers through and think which option functioned as investigate, which functioned well with my RP, and I was always on the edge that something unexpected would come out of the answer - UNLIKE DA ][...

Modifié par eroeru, 16 mai 2012 - 11:47 .

[Elhanan]

YohkoOhno wrote...

While I do believe DA2 was a disappointment because of its rush to release, I can't say the same for ME3.

Outside the ending, ME3 is still a popular game, and I don't think a mediocre ending has killed the franchise or the experiences.

For all the talk of CDProjeckt's "The Witcher", it's bringing in low numbers. Only 320,813 units sold globally on XBOX, and that has more followers than the PC, compared to 2,191,856 units for ME3 for XBOX. Clearly, this good word of mouth isn't translating into sales and goodwill only gets you so far.

While there are a lot of fans pissed off on the Bioware forums, I can't say everybody is as vocal. It seems the older fans are likely more perturbed than the younger ones. I think part of it is age or familiarity--being a fan too long or being an older gamer tends to make you cynical and jaded, so Bioware's stories seem less attractive. People need to remember that every game is somebody's first game, so they can't always go after the hard core who've been with Bioware since BG.

One thing I've always been surprised at is "brand loyalists", because I've never followed a "label", I've either followed creators or series. I'm surprised people think of Bioware so fondly and have had such a loyalty, even though they weren't the only people responsible for the D&D games (Interplay, Atari, Obsidion, Black Isle, and TSR / Wizards of the Coast all had key roles in the BG series).  I'm suprised Bioware has such fans dedicated to  a whole studio.

So, as far as raging goes, I think Bioware will continue to improve the game, and hopefully won't make the mistakes that they did with DA2, but I also think no matter what people will get mad if something's different, like the rage against "multiplayer", which doesn't have to hurt single-player games and actually works better than I expected in ME3. I also hope fans will accept Bioware is not going to make the same games and BG2 and either move on or accept the tradeoffs between gaming in 1999 and 2012.

RE: Brand Loyalist - I only speak for myself, but I do so because the brand earns it. Be it a game, restaurant, book store, etc, a well run business that goes beyond my expectations in quality and service earns my trust and favored status among others of it's kind. This is frequently seen in business, as many attempt to try and insure return visits a.k.a. brand loyalty to their clients.

And having been a Bioware fan since NWN1 (still have yet to play the BG series; have them, but they remain unplayed), I enjoyed DA2, though preferring DAO overall. For me, I do not get the Rage; the Hate for products or companies that many express.

Modifié par Elhanan, 16 mai 2012 - 01:01 .